Topic: The media, earthworms, and a bit of a self-indulgent rant

[kcbworth]

The mod's don't help. I know it's a time consuming job, it involves judgement calls all the time and they can't read every post but... There are times when they can clearly see particular individuals stepping over the line and they go missing in action because of who that person is (IMO). Recently one of the mod's was encouraging members to report posts more, so they could get on top of things. Naturally, it's harder for them if people don't report. However, if/ when you do...you don't hear anything further about it one way or the other...so you have nothing to go on as to whether or not anything was ever done, never mind if there was a warning/ ban issued. Even worse...those who do see these abusive posts don't get to see what's acceptable or not...so it continues.

Not sure this is a thread for criticising the mods - would prefer that taken to the feedback forum...

But, agree with the rest of your post. The tone is not one of moaning, it's one of people trying to win an argument. I've no doubt that has always happened, but it used to be so much more eloquent, and there were actually active posters around that deserved respect.

What I will say is... I've been here over 10 years now (maybe 11), very active, addicted almost, but...

This is by far the worst it's been. Significantly worse that when we kicked out the cancers. At that point, it was a shared discontent that strengthened our collective resolve, and we worked together (mostly)

Now, it's just bickering. Constant bickering. Arguing. Not just moaning imho, but arguing. Gets heated.

So little of it is about the respect I thought we had here and at Liverpool, and ffs if some of these guys go sing YNWA as if they mean it then I just don't get it

[The 5th Benitle]

That's the whole point I was making. Nobody seems to know what, if anything, is done about posts which break the rules. Heck...we can all see them, those for whom it's just part of their everyday manner to call someone a "...c***..." etc. don't see any interventions over these things and carry on thinking it's acceptable.

I know we're getting into a side alley away from this thread but...the 'tone' of the debate to some extent has a bearing on the content/ conduct of the debate. If we want a more moderate environment for debate that doesn't swing between extremes then it might be helpful if the moderators were indeed a bit more high profile where applicable.

There's no point in telling people who's normal reaction is an impulse to be personal & abusive that if they'd kindly take the time to visit this or that place to check if your intended outburst of "...f***ing surrender monkey..." falls within the rules. If/ when these things happen, in my view the mod's should be making more of a public effort to calm people down.

I don't expect people to be publicly shamed over things that they say/ do, but I do think it would be helpful if there was more influence brought to bear on the well known regulars who's language and attitude gets in the way of moderate debate.

If we did that, we'd be told we were being 'heavy handed', 'power crazed' etc. That's not a hypothetical either, it's borne of experience. If someone is given a warning, it's private.

[The 5th Benitle]

To address your final point though I was there, we are currently considering cracking down on quite a few users who are ruining things for others by incessant and repetitive whinging and arguing.

[The 5th Benitle]

Oh and a final point. No record of you reporting any posts in all your time on RAWK. Bit fishy...

[Twelfth Man]

More colourful swearing the better, nowt personal obviously, c*nt is one of my favourite words, never loses its appeal.

[I-was-watching-it-on-Sky]

Oh and a final point. No record of you reporting any posts in all your time on RAWK. Bit fishy...

That's very interesting....!!

I'll PM you with a little info...There may be a mole at the top of the circus.

[Historical Fool]

Thanks 6th for taking the time to respond. Good news for all of us.

[Chakan]

Thanks 6th for taking the time to respond. Good news for all of us.

6th is his big sister.

[jambutty]

Truth be told, soccer has become a rich man toy.

Unfortunately our owners have 2 toys and we not there favourite one.

We just did not get the luck of the draw when it comes to ownership.

Tripe.

[Hinesy]

Lets get this back on course please, I think Rhi's OP is excellent. Surely in a time where the Gov hates the people, where the majority of life is trying to grind you down and every other fan loves to have a pop at us, the one shining hope, beacon, light at the end of the storm etc is being a football fan and even better, being a Liverpool fan. Its a bloody honour and I love my club and I'm entitled to be pissed off but I'm also not going to spend my emotional life bickering negatively about LFC.

I think we should be able to discuss and grumble the bad aspects of the club but that's a world away from whinging and nit picking and being snide and negative about any and all matters at all times.

I genuinely believe some posters do it because if they're already down in the dumps they can't fall any further, but what's the bloody point of 'supporting' a club if its always shit. The others like to post negatively because they somehow seem to be more intelligent as critics, the happy are foolish that kind of thing. Well, I don't care. I don't care for them, if your only point is to take the piss. Give me the hope anyday. Not blind faith but support. There's a big difference. Meantime I-was-There, talk of moles and such nonsense are missing the mark mate. We do moderate, we moderate inconsistently, but always we have this site at heart and have maintained it for better or worse at a level well above most drivel sites.

[Harinder]

Lets get this back on course please, I think Rhi's OP is excellent. Surely in a time where the Gov hates the people, where the majority of life is trying to grind you down and every other fan loves to have a pop at us, the one shining hope, beacon, light at the end of the storm etc is being a football fan and even better, being a Liverpool fan. Its a bloody honour and I love my club and I'm entitled to be pissed off but I'm also not going to spend my emotional life bickering negatively about LFC.

I think we should be able to discuss and grumble the bad aspects of the club but that's a world away from whinging and nit picking and being snide and negative about any and all matters at all times.

I genuinely believe some posters do it because if they're already down in the dumps they can't fall any further, but what's the bloody point of 'supporting' a club if its always shit. The others like to post negatively because they somehow seem to be more intelligent as critics, the happy are foolish that kind of thing. Well, I don't care. I don't care for them, if your only point is to take the piss. Give me the hope anyday. Not blind faith but support. There's a big difference. Meantime I-was-There, talk of moles and such nonsense are missing the mark mate. We do moderate, we moderate inconsistently, but always we have this site at heart and have maintained it for better or worse at a level well above most drivel sites.

We were consistent. He got warned for handbagging too along with whomever he reported

[TheTeflonJohn]

More colourful swearing the better, nowt personal obviously, c*nt is one of my favourite words, never loses its appeal.

Just a quick one, I wholeheartedly agree with the word c*nt 

As you were.

[houkura]

What a great op. I haven't been on here since the Stoke game. I curate my Liverpool internet participation with a lot of care. I have no time for the crying and whining. I'm a big fan of Brendan. I like our team. I think the two new signings-along with Origi-will make a positive impact next season. I even think the owners are pretty decent. They stay out of it for the most part and run the club prudently, putting all that is made back into the club while not taking anything out. It's how I would run it. I think there were a lot of mitigating factors that led to our below (just) average season and I think given time the signings from last season will prove to be successful at Liverpool or wherever they may end up. As you can tell I'm a pretty positive supporter and I have no time for the negativity. I only follow 2 or 3 Liverpool related accounts on twitter and they are Kristian Walsh, James Pearce and I forget the other. I don't read the comments on Liverpool news sites or the club homepage because all it tells me when I do is that there are a lot of pr*&%s that follow football. I have other interests in life and when Liverpool lose I turn to them for a few days to get my mind off it.

That being said I often come to this site because there are intelligent discussions about Liverpool Football Club-I just have to curate which topics I choose to participate in sadly.

If you can imagine Manchester City fans are in an uproar for finishing second while Manchester United fans-whose team were knocked out of the cups early, had no european football and scraped a 4th place finish are thrilled with 4th. Football doesn't make sense and it's followers even less so.

[Alan_X]

Oh and a final point. No record of you reporting any posts in all your time on RAWK. Bit fishy...

That's what I thought.

[I-was-watching-it-on-Sky]

That's what I thought.

And...as it turns out...it was wrong and so were you.

Let's all call it evens and move on.

[The 5th Benitle]

And...as it turns out...it was wrong and so were you.

Let's all call it evens and move on.

Yep, and let's

[Severely]

What bothers me about all this is that the sense of community is gone. A lot of the stalwarts of these forums who really offered points of discourse that were insightful and thought provoking seem to have given up because of the constant bickering. It's like watching siblings argue incessantly - you know they'll never actually agree and that the topic is pointless anyway, but you can't go anywhere without seeing the same trivial insults and sly digs at each other. I distinctly remember a time not so long ago when this sort of thing was at least good natured at its core, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore - there's a lot of anger and bitterness directed towards other posters, at FSG, at Rodgers, at the players.

[Zlen]

It's a strange state we're currently in.
Feels like a death by million small cuts, feels like we're always a bit short, in some constant state of rebuilding, never quite good enough, never quite smart enough and most of all never quite lucky enough. I think that being a supporter is something that carries an inherited layer of hope in itself. This hope and optimism, looking towards the possibilites and willing them into existence, is so rewarding when it pays out so to speak, but the problem is we've seen so little of that in recent years. Even the amazing ride on the wings of Suarez only took us so far - in the end we had nothing to show for it. We were left with broken hearts and soon afterwards with a broken team as well. This I see as a major part of what's now a vicious circle of expecting the worse and willing it into existence. As a collective, Liverpool support has seen some terribly frustrating years. Truly scary events nearly unfolded with our previous owners. Amazing, iconic characters like Rafa, Kenny, Gerrard and Suarez have all now left and we've once again ended the season of a high note of disapointment and frustration. It's not easy to remain positive - it really isn't. We should give ourselves a little break and some time to heal. Vent if venting is what's needed, look away for a while rather then disect every microfracture in our club's actions. Just simply accept that we've failed, that the momentum is gone and that we have to reset ourselves, rise again on new foundations of renewed hope. Otherwise our foundations may become defetism and bitterness and this, not a slightly less exciting striker, is what might truly cement us in the 'tier below'. We must try to be honest - we're hurt and shaken, it's ok to accept it, but let's not fixate on it for too long.

There is still fight in us, pride, grit and courage.
I also think there is an almost unprecedented space in our team for birth of new heroes - probably unexpected ones.
I'm still angry and frustrated over what happened, but I'll be willing dreams into existence when the season starts - no matter how unlikely they seem.

YNWA

[fowlermagic]

If your light at the end of the dark tunnel, ie after a week of shyte at work or issues at home, life in general ...is watching 22 men run around after a football on an average wage of 60k a week & more then good luck to you. Personally you be a lot better off picking up the ball yourself and heading out for a kick around with the lads or telling the young un to pack up his phone for the day as we are heading off to the park. The days are warming up, give your best mate a call & head out for 9 holes of golf at 7pm & a pint or tell the missus forget about cooking tonight as I have an extra 20 quid in the pocket lets get some Chinese.

The day Sir Bill said the game was a more important than life is long gone as they were the days you let the missus raise the kids pretty much. They were the days your legends spilled some blood for a wage not much more than your manager at work...some even less. Its just a game that some media mogul keeps shoving down your throat 24 hours a day so it can make them rich off your pennies. So what if the team loss 6-1 as what the feck can we do about expect grumble, switch the tv off and head out & smell the fresh air. It already feels better if the remote gets some dust for the summer.

[jsl2000]

Well said, anyway. Sadly, no-one will take a blind bit of notice.

And you know why because they don't think it apply's to them.  They think your talking about somebody else.  We have the same problem here at work.  Everybody knows there are some people dragging us all down but they don't think its them they think it somebody else.

I'm a great believe in naming and shaming it's something this country seems to have lost the ability to do.  It's become un-PC and all it does is perpetuate the problem.

[CraigDS]

I name jsl2000.

[Eeyore]

The irony is that the Club became great precisely because what Rhi calls earthworms. We became great because we were basically never happy. A young Robbie Fowler walked of the pitch having scored five only to get a rollicking of Ronnie Moran for not getting six. Players medals were thrown at them and they were told they meant nothing as soon as the new season began they were last seasons medals and worthless.

Everyone was held to account, was expected to improve and the moment standards dropped they were history. That is how you become a great Club and how you win things. I think fans have this rose tinted view of the 70's and 80's that everyone at the Club went around patting each other on the back. It couldn't of been further from the truth and if anyone wasn't pulling their weight than us the supporters let them know.

When did that change and when did it become acceptable to basically give up. The owners haven't got the bottle or desire to push boundaries and compete, the manager made a selection surrender at Madrid and the players rolled over and got walked over by a 3rd rate Stoke side. What is the reaction oh it's par for the course. We don't have the right to compete at the top table anymore, then the owners pick on a couple of easy targets in Marsh and Pascoe and we look to sign free transfers.

When as a Club did it become okay to become soft, get walked all over and make excuses.

Something isn't right and instead of addressing it we talk ourselves down and make pathetic feeble lily livered excuses. As fans we get the Club we deserve and if we don't wake from this melancholic acceptance and let the people running the club know that surrendering against Madrid and rolling over against Stoke isn't acceptable then we will deserve everything we get.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

 

[SP]

Relentless negativity is self-indulgent and incredibly selfish. Too many posters are so intent on winning the Internet that they have seem not to care about the people reading their posts. A decent post is not a splendid piece of oratory delivered from a soapbox (and repeated in every topic). Lecturing people does not engage them and does persuade them a jot. Assuming that the poster wishes to engage in pessimistic evangelism, it would be more effective to post less, and actually engage with the other posters. How many poster actually shift their position as the argument develops? How many graciously concede points that other posters make? It is a depressingly small minority. Too many posters indulge themselves in forum onanism.

The current example of this is the Danny Ings signing topic. It has now been locked as it was depressingly infested with the usual posters and their usual posts about the current Transfer Strategy. Surely a welcome topic should be full of "Welcome to the clubs" and discussion about where he would play?  The self indulgent FSG gripes infect topics and make the whole board incredibly hard to read. There is a Transfer Strategy topic. Discuss it in there, and stop twisting every topic to the same agenda.

RAWK is supposed to be enjoyable. No one (beside the shills obviously) is paid to read RAWK. Posters who suck the joy out of everything diminish the experience of everybody else. And that is what I have an issue with.

There are plenty of things that have gone wrong and could be improved upon - and they can all be discussed on RAWK - but it needs to be done in an appropriate topic, with some consideration for the people who have to read it.

[SP]

The issue is not with the criticisms. It is how they are made, where they are made, the lack of engagement with opposing views and the complete dogmatic inflexibility of some posters' position.

Every is given up their freetime / sciving off work to read RAWK. No one wants a rabid lecture.

[Mutton Geoff]

Relentless negativity is self-indulgent and incredibly selfish. Too many posters are so intent on winning the Internet that they have seem not to care about the people reading their posts. A decent post is not a splendid piece of oratory delivered from a soapbox (and repeated in every topic). Lecturing people does not engage them and does persuade them a jot. Assuming that the poster wishes to engage in pessimistic evangelism, it would be more effective to post less, and actually engage with the other posters. How many poster actually shift their position as the argument develops? How many graciously concede points that other posters make? It is a depressingly small minority. Too many posters indulge themselves in forum onanism.

The current example of this is the Danny Ings signing topic. It has now been locked as it was depressingly infested with the usual posters and their usual posts about the current Transfer Strategy. Surely a welcome topic should be full of "Welcome to the clubs" and discussion about where he would play?  The self indulgent FSG gripes infect topics and make the whole board incredibly hard to read. There is a Transfer Strategy topic. Discuss it in there, and stop twisting every topic to the same agenda.

RAWK is supposed to be enjoyable. No one (beside the shills obviously) is paid to read RAWK. Posters who suck the joy out of everything diminish the experience of everybody else. And that is what I have an issue with.

There are plenty of things that have gone wrong and could be improved upon - and they can all be discussed on RAWK - but it needs to be done in an appropriate topic, with some consideration for the people who have to read it.

Exactly !

[didi]

The irony is that the Club became great precisely because what Rhi calls earthworms. We became great because we were basically never happy. A young Robbie Fowler walked of the pitch having scored five only to get a rollicking of Ronnie Moran for not getting six. Players medals were thrown at them and they were told they meant nothing as soon as the new season began they were last seasons medals and worthless.

Everyone was held to account, was expected to improve and the moment standards dropped they were history. That is how you become a great Club and how you win things. I think fans have this rose tinted view of the 70's and 80's that everyone at the Club went around patting each other on the back. It couldn't of been further from the truth and if anyone wasn't pulling their weight than us the supporters let them know.

When did that change and when did it become acceptable to basically give up. The owners haven't got the bottle or desire to push boundaries and compete, the manager made a selection surrender at Madrid and the players rolled over and got walked over by a 3rd rate Stoke side. What is the reaction oh it's par for the course. We don't have the right to compete at the top table anymore, then the owners pick on a couple of easy targets in Marsh and Pascoe and we look to sign free transfers.

When as a Club did it become okay to become soft, get walked all over and make excuses.

Something isn't right and instead of addressing it we talk ourselves down and make pathetic feeble lily livered excuses. As fans we get the Club we deserve and if we don't wake from this melancholic acceptance and let the people running the club know that surrendering against Madrid and rolling over against Stoke isn't acceptable then we will deserve everything we get.

because we are Liverpool and we are supposed to be great arnt we??

thats the problem we dont move with the times and try to be better , we wallow in the past

We were great back then because we were led by men that didint stand still, the club was hungry for more and it ran from top to bottom

[Eeyore]

The issue is not with the criticisms. It is how they are made, where they are made, the lack of engagement with opposing views and the complete dogmatic inflexibility of some posters' position.

Every is given up their freetime / sciving off work to read RAWK. No one wants a rabid lecture.

For me that probably sums up the problem succinctly the people who want to be entertained and the ones who want to win. At least the ones you describe as giving rabid lectures are the ones showing passion. Something that has evaporated from both the fan base and the Club.

[SP]

For me that probably sums up the problem succinctly the people who want to be entertained and the ones who want to win. At least the ones you describe as giving rabid lectures are the ones showing passion. Something that has evaporated from both the fan base and the Club.

So your will to win means abject misery for all at all times? RAWK does not run LFC. There is space for a broad range of topics. The consideration for others in respecting that that range of topics exist, and that the same criticisms do not fit in all those topics, is what is lacking from many posters.

Not having sledgehammer blows of criticism in every topic is not the same as accepting failure or less than the best.

If RAWK is not entertaining, what is the fucking point of the forums? Why should we bother? (And I am being very clear that I am talking about RAWK. People going to matches expecting to be entertained is a whole other off topic issue).

[Eeyore]

So your will to win means abject misery for all at all times? RAWK does not run LFC. There is space for a broad range of topics. The consideration for others in respecting that that range of topics exist, and that the same criticisms do not fit in all those topics, is what is lacking from many posters.

Not having sledgehammer blows of criticism in every topic is not the same as accepting failure or less than the best.

If RAWK is not entertaining, what is the fucking point of the forums? Why should we bother? (And I am being very clear that I am talking about RAWK. People going to matches expecting to be entertained is a whole other off topic issue).

Not my will to win but the clubs.

[SP]

Not my will to win but the clubs.

And what does the club's will to win have to do with posting stuff in appropriate topics, and respecting other posters? The grip against the earthworms is not their actual argument. It is the endless repetitive dirge that is shoe-horned into topics that it is only tangentially related to. It becomes impossible to avoid the cacophony of wailing. Whilst it is important to some, it is not the only thing to discuss about the club. 

[keyo]

because we are Liverpool and we are supposed to be great arnt we??

thats the problem we dont move with the times and try to be better , we wallow in the past

We were great back then because we were led by men that didint stand still, the club was hungry for more and it ran from top to bottom

there is a disconnect between your second and third line though....fans wallow in the past because that is what we do.....we are not making decisions and running the club, but we are demanding basically the standards that we hark back to (and one of the things I recall from years gone by is how many moaners there were at the matches in the 'glory days'

ultimately, there are good things being done at the club, the ground development, reduced debt, the improved commercial deals etc., but do we all believe that the club is well run from top to bottom?  what are we doing that is different or better?  how are we improving our lot and overcoming the barriers that appear to bar our way to success? are we improving as the owner's learn?

there are plenty of posters who provide a good case for the owners and provide good insight, and there are plenty of dissenters, some well informed, some not.......but to be honest the OP struck me as a bit self-indulgent itself, whingeing about the whingers, complaining about people today, etc when that is precisely the point you make that is relevant, you get nowhere complaining about the environment you operate in, as it does not change having to work within that environment......you just have to work how best to succeed within it, and the question should always be, are we doing that?

but that does not mean we don't support.  sometimes it seems as though people enjoy the moaning and that is what they are in for.  but is that the case?  some people will get off on it.  some will want to appear smart, or to be seen bucking the trend.  but mostly they are just venting.  hence how easy it is to find contrary posts by so many posters, supportive when we are doing well and critical when we are not. but forums allow points of view to get polarised and seem more extreme.....I have said it before, forums are like after-match pub discussions, except you do not have your mates looking at you and listening to what you say, so what you say does not bounce back to you, so there is no internal moderator - bullshit alarm - and consequently extremes develop as each thread grows and views become polarised.

my advice - get over it everyone, disagreements will occur, ignore the wums, and the people you disagree with, and those who you think pick arguments for the sake of picking arguments. and enjoy the really good posters (positive and negative). we all support libpool, no mater what anyone says.

[TSC]

So your will to win means abject misery for all at all times? RAWK does not run LFC. There is space for a broad range of topics. The consideration for others in respecting that that range of topics exist, and that the same criticisms do not fit in all those topics, is what is lacking from many posters.

Not having sledgehammer blows of criticism in every topic is not the same as accepting failure or less than the best.

If RAWK is not entertaining, what is the fucking point of the forums? Why should we bother? (And I am being very clear that I am talking about RAWK. People going to matches expecting to be entertained is a whole other off topic issue).

It's good though to read wide ranging views around the club and how it's run, etc.  I happen to generally agree with Al on his posts about those in charge and the direction we've been heading in.  I disagree about other stuff he posts on but have no problem with reading it. 

The reason there are more negative posts/threads is simply due to the fact we've had a big negative season.  Last Summer for example was much more full of optimism, at least until Suarez feasted on Cellini then it all collapsed to an extent.  I didn't see many posts/threads critisising this 'positivity' (except for one or two like Brentie who called it as it was post Suarez).

Unfortunately there are real concerns about the club right now.  This forum is prob the most conservative re posts expressing this.  Some of the others are extremely critical of the club, some views verge on rabid.  Personally I think recent/impending changes to the coaching staff etc are a positive.  Maybe Al doesn't.  But not all 'negativity' stems from just possessing a negative attitude.  Of course some of the one liners 'FSG/Rodgers = shite' don't help, but generally a lot of it's based on genuine concerns.  Which may only disappear when it's clear the club is on the right track.   

[Banquo's Ghost]

The irony is that the Club became great precisely because what Rhi calls earthworms. We became great because we were basically never happy. A young Robbie Fowler walked of the pitch having scored five only to get a rollicking of Ronnie Moran for not getting six. Players medals were thrown at them and they were told they meant nothing as soon as the new season began they were last seasons medals and worthless.

Everyone was held to account, was expected to improve and the moment standards dropped they were history. That is how you become a great Club and how you win things. I think fans have this rose tinted view of the 70's and 80's that everyone at the Club went around patting each other on the back. It couldn't of been further from the truth and if anyone wasn't pulling their weight than us the supporters let them know.

When did that change and when did it become acceptable to basically give up. The owners haven't got the bottle or desire to push boundaries and compete, the manager made a selection surrender at Madrid and the players rolled over and got walked over by a 3rd rate Stoke side. What is the reaction oh it's par for the course. We don't have the right to compete at the top table anymore, then the owners pick on a couple of easy targets in Marsh and Pascoe and we look to sign free transfers.

When as a Club did it become okay to become soft, get walked all over and make excuses.

If you think any organisation becomes great by constant negativity and criticism, then I suggest you read more. 'Earthworm' attitudes have never created any success, and I have never seen such a mentality advocated by any student of leadership. Your characterisation of LFC during the glory days is utterly misleading.

Something isn't right and instead of addressing it we talk ourselves down and make pathetic feeble lily livered excuses. As fans we get the Club we deserve and if we don't wake from this melancholic acceptance and let the people running the club know that surrendering against Madrid and rolling over against Stoke isn't acceptable then we will deserve everything we get.

That's sheer nonsense too. Unless you think the outstanding, deeply moral and ever-supportive fans of Chelsea and City deserve all the trophies they have recently won. Clearly, when they changed their mind-sets in 2003 and 2008 so as not to accept mediocrity any more, it was simply that decision that swelled their silverware count.

 

[kcbworth]

The irony is that the Club became great precisely because what Rhi calls earthworms. We became great because we were basically never happy. A young Robbie Fowler walked of the pitch having scored five only to get a rollicking of Ronnie Moran for not getting six. Players medals were thrown at them and they were told they meant nothing as soon as the new season began they were last seasons medals and worthless.

Everyone was held to account, was expected to improve and the moment standards dropped they were history. That is how you become a great Club and how you win things. I think fans have this rose tinted view of the 70's and 80's that everyone at the Club went around patting each other on the back. It couldn't of been further from the truth and if anyone wasn't pulling their weight than us the supporters let them know.

When did that change and when did it become acceptable to basically give up. The owners haven't got the bottle or desire to push boundaries and compete, the manager made a selection surrender at Madrid and the players rolled over and got walked over by a 3rd rate Stoke side. What is the reaction oh it's par for the course. We don't have the right to compete at the top table anymore, then the owners pick on a couple of easy targets in Marsh and Pascoe and we look to sign free transfers.

When as a Club did it become okay to become soft, get walked all over and make excuses.

Something isn't right and instead of addressing it we talk ourselves down and make pathetic feeble lily livered excuses. As fans we get the Club we deserve and if we don't wake from this melancholic acceptance and let the people running the club know that surrendering against Madrid and rolling over against Stoke isn't acceptable then we will deserve everything we get.

Earthworms fight back

[walshys_mullet]

So your will to win means abject misery for all at all times? RAWK does not run LFC. There is space for a broad range of topics. The consideration for others in respecting that that range of topics exist, and that the same criticisms do not fit in all those topics, is what is lacking from many posters.

Not having sledgehammer blows of criticism in every topic is not the same as accepting failure or less than the best.

If RAWK is not entertaining, what is the fucking point of the forums? Why should we bother? (And I am being very clear that I am talking about RAWK. People going to matches expecting to be entertained is a whole other off topic issue).

How on earth is it abject misery? It's nothing of the sort talk about overkill. I was gutted when we lost the title in 89. I was gutted when we lost the cup final to the mancs 1-0. I was still as gutter when we lost to villa in the semi.

Nothing has changed for me I still want us to win every game, every time. I know that's not possible and it wasn't like that in the 70s or 80s either but we were consistently driven to succeed. ALS right we are also rans now. Maybe I'm the problem as I haven't accepted the status quo, maybe al is. Maybe in order to get on with things we just accept that we are no longer the club we are and that we are just going to exist to bob about with the odd good run here and there.

[SP]

How on earth is it abject misery? It's nothing of the sort talk about overkill. I was gutted when we lost the title in 89. I was gutted when we lost the cup final to the mancs 1-0. I was still as gutter when we lost to villa in the semi.

Nothing has changed for me I still want us to win every game, every time. I know that's not possible and it wasn't like that in the 70s or 80s either but we were consistently driven to succeed. ALS right we are also rans now. Maybe I'm the problem as I haven't accepted the status quo, maybe al is. Maybe in order to get on with things we just accept that we are no longer the club we are and that we are just going to exist to bob about with the odd good run here and there.

How does wanting to win every game equate to the right to post the same pessimistic mantra in just about every topic?

My problem is the ubiquitous nature of the criticisms and the snide nature of much of it rather than the actual argument - most of which have open topics that they would neatly fit into.

[walshys_mullet]

How does wanting to win every game equate to the right to post the same pessimistic mantra in just about every topic?

My problem is the ubiquitous nature of the criticisms and the snide nature of much of it rather than the actual argument - most of which have open topics that they would neatly fit into.

Because everyone's different perhaps? Some people get angry, some people are disappointed, some people brush it off, some people just get on with it. It's the world we live in.

[SP]

How about after a poor result you gave yourself a little cool off period and time to calm down before posting?

The post match knee jerk is not the issue though. That is as it ever has been. It can be corralled in a post match topic and its long term effect is minimal. We'd rather it did not happen, but we all have form for immediate reactions - we would be much of a fan if we did not. The issue is the pervasive negativity mantra that seems ubiquitous.

[Solomon Grundy]

The post match knee jerk is not the issue though. That is as it ever has been. It can be corralled in a post match topic and its long term effect is minimal. We'd rather it did not happen, but we all have form for immediate reactions - we would be much of a fan if we did not. The issue is the pervasive negativity mantra that seems ubiquitous.

O.k Fair enough. I suppose your right.