Author Topic: Some quality/important posts you may have missed  (Read 767997 times)

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #360 on: September 24, 2010, 12:48:56 am »
They don't have to be long to be spot on.

Hodgson is managing the team but if, as I and others suspect, the disillusionment of senior players lead to the demise of the previous manager then it's pretty obvious he's going to feel inclined towards supporting those players.

Personally I don't believe anything too machiavellian went on in the summer.  I think Christian Purslow persuaded Hicks, Gillet and Broughton that Rafa had lost the dressing room.  I believe he genuinely thought all we needed to do was get the likes of Gerrard and Carra happy again and we'd have a pretty good pop at the top four.  He also thought the likes of Gerrard and Carra would be right behind the selection of an English manager and Hodgson was top of the list.  The reality is already probably starting to dawn for Purslow and Gerrard and Carra.  Football players need saving from themselves.  All it would have taken is a good start under Rafa and we'd have had the "Gerrard finally understanding Rafa's manmanagement" interview we had before the start of last season.

Unspeakably depressing we no longer have a board which protects us from the fickle whim of players and the media, worse still they indulge it.

Offline shanklyboy

  • OCB Enforcer.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,591
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #361 on: September 24, 2010, 03:06:27 am »
This place is like one of those little old fashioned shops you find that sells all kinds of fantastic curios.
The type of shop that is tucked away down a little back street, away from the hustle and bustle of the world outside.

It has little passing trade and the clientele are usually the same old regulars who appreciate the quality of the goods over the hype of the mass produced, over priced and over marketed media tat.

There is always a little gem to be found.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy.
www.savelfc.org

Offline E2K

  • A seriously talented
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,604
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #362 on: September 25, 2010, 04:40:20 pm »
Two paragraphs from my post from a few weeks ago, on the previous page:

Quote
I have conflicting feelings about Roy right now, but overall I was always aware that the job ahead of him was not going to be the same as Rafa‘s, so I think that has allowed me to understand him a little bit better than some. Rafael Benitez wanted to win trophies, build the club up, create foundations that would sustain Liverpool long into the future and win as many trophies as possible. I never expected Roy to do that. If we were still looking to be the best in the short-term, Manuel Pellegrini would have been signed up and given at least £20m to spend with no compulsion to sell. That didn’t happen because it wasn’t financially viable to do so. Instead of signing up a tactically-minded, highly-rated coach with vast European experience for nothing, we paid Fulham for an English manager six years his senior with little experience of competing for the game’s biggest prizes. Again, like I said about Paul Konchesky, that’s not to knock Roy - he’s just a symptom of a far greater problem.

…..

Roy has been brought in, not to win trophies, but to keep our heads above water. If the club wanted an ambitious manager, there were plenty around (Pellegrini and Lippi were available, the likes of Van Gaal, Hitzfeld, even Laudrup or Rikjaard, might have been tempted). Instead, we went for Roy Hodgson who, with the best will in the world, would have never gotten near the job under normal circumstances. This was like 2004, when Alan Curbishley and Gordon Strachan were being linked and instead the club went out and signed up one of the best coaches in Europe in Benitez. Back then, we still had ambition, drive and, most importantly, about £350m less debt. Everything has changed. I believe that Roy, thank heaven for small mercies, knows exactly what his job is, a kind of Fulham-type scenario where fourth place will be as good as first and top-half will do at a push. Throw in a cup run, and there you have his job description.

Have to say, I’ve been revisiting some of these words over the past couple of weeks and cringing. It’s one thing for the supporters to understand our changed circumstances and get behind the team, but I have a really bad feeling that our manager is settling for results and performances that are unacceptable given the quality of player at his disposal because he feels like we're not good enough, and if that‘s the case, things have gotten even worse. I’ve been appalled by the performances like everyone else, and it worries me greatly that the manager doesn’t seem to share my feelings. Shouldn’t we expect a bit better? Elements of my post above suggest that we shouldn’t, and I was wrong to say that. We're in a tough spot, but we're not that bad-off yet.

Squad-wise, we still have far more quality than he had at his disposal at Fulham, so while it’s going to be something of a ship-steadying period given the financial disadvantages we have over others, we’re still capable of playing so much better than we are, and that buck has to stop with the manager. It was a fair point last season that, regardless of injuries and lack of finances, we still should have been beating the likes of Reading, and it remains a fair point. Forget about Northampton for a second, our first team has been dominated for large periods by teams like Sunderland, Birmingham and West Brom this season.

Whether a team can challenge for the title or not, challenge for fourth place or not, you still expect them to go and try and win games. When I wrote the above, we had only played two League games, one in which we played the majority with ten men and the other where the team selection was at least positive in some ways. Aside from not blaming him for being here and seeing him as a symtom rather than a cause, my point was also that we have to give him a chance. But since then we’ve gone to Birmingham with our tails between our legs and gladly accepted a 0-0 with seemingly no real desire to win, been cheerfully told by our manager that the class of Torres and Gerrard saved us against West Brom, and been utterly out-thought and out-fought by Manchester United. I don’t get that and I can’t accept it.

Regardless of where you are or who you are, you try to win. We’re Liverpool for fuck’s sake, and if our manager is readily accepting that we’re a mid-table side even though we still (for now) have the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Cole, Reina, etc, then things are only going to get worse and it'll be self-inflicted wounds that do it. I'm now officially dreading the upcoming Merseyside derby.
Twitter: @e2klassic
Blog: theredstar.home.blog

Offline indianscouser

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #363 on: September 25, 2010, 07:18:56 pm »
This place is like one of those little old fashioned shops you find that sells all kinds of fantastic curios.
The type of shop that is tucked away down a little back street, away from the hustle and bustle of the world outside.

It has little passing trade and the clientele are usually the same old regulars who appreciate the quality of the goods over the hype of the mass produced, over priced and over marketed media tat.

There is always a little gem to be found.

Although I am not one of your peers Sir and don't post much, this is a place where I read every single post and every line and that keeps me sane in between all the madness. Thank god for this place!

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #364 on: September 26, 2010, 12:27:05 am »
Indeed, great posts doesn´t have to be long...

I think we need to define awful. Last season we played poorly and still were competitive for the CL spots. More importantly, despite some bizarre subs, the team as a whole played cohesively. This season we are in danger of relegation and more importantly the formations, tactics, players used and the directions they have been given make no sense. This is a whole different level of awful compared to last year. Hodgson is magnifying the problems of last year by using the players he has badly. Worse still, with his negative attitude and continuous harping about the owners and players he is making a bad situation at the club into a bad situation on the pitch. Benitez last year was very clear in demarcating between club and team. Hodgson is using the situation at the club as an excuse for the poverty of football o display. Let me be very clear here; Hodgson is using our crisis to mask his own  failings on the pitch. This is having a negative impact on the players and their esteem and we will rue letting him carry on with this behaviour if key players decide they have had enough and leave.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Bobbins

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #365 on: September 26, 2010, 01:31:32 am »
Spot on, this one.

But to be honest mate, this is starting to worry me.

Roy hasn't changed his approach for any game so far, he hasn't changed his approach for 35 years, he isn't going to change his approach.

If Roy is 'successful', he will, in terms of style of play, successfully take us backwards 6, or if we're astoundinly lucky, 9 years. That's the reality.

The more successful Roy is, the further away we get from the kind of football we were all hoping for, which Rafa was trying to build towards, variations of which are played by all the top teams in the world - football involving aggressive pressing, high defensive lines and quick interpassing, with attacking full backs and lots of play in between the lines.

It's taken us a long, hard road to have put foundations in place which were finally getting away from that. Now the best we can hope for from our current manager is to take us back there.

Plus, of course, if he hasn't adapted on that, he isn't going to start taking our youths seriously, and the style of play the seniors now play, the longer and more successful he is, the more different that will be to what our youths are being rightly taught, and the harder it will be for them to break through - we can't afford to neglect our youths, that's our ONE chance of building a competitive squad with the financial limitations we were going to have.

I don't actually have anything against Roy, but I credited him with a LOT more tactical nous than he's actually got - he's only got one tactic, and his one 'plan b' is to play the same way but stick another striker on when we're behind. I've spent years taking the piss out of that kind of thing, I don't want those kind of tactics to bed in.  I want the senior team to play a lot more like the reserves do, because if we ever are going to get back to winning things/challenging for the top prizes, rather than hopefully challenging for fourth, we almost certainly aren't going to do it playing Roy's brand of football.

If he can change his approach then fair enough, but he isn't going to. I don't want us to 'successfully' become a slightly better heeled and supported Fulham. It was one thing when Ged did it - at least he was making us solid and competitive again, but those things weren't our problem.

Roy's 'solving' problems that didn't exist, and completely ignoring the problems we did have, and doing it in such an incoherent way that we're actually at risk of long term damage (on the pitch) here if this goes on for long enough.

I want Roy to be successful because I don't want to call for a Liverpool manager's head - but we know Roy's tactics. We've been down that road before, and it took a long time and a lot of hard work to get off that road. I want to support  Roy, but on the other hand I don't want our football to go back to what we worked so hard to get it away from in the first fucking place, especially with kids coming through, promising kids, who are shooled in a totally different approach.

Offline Callaghan.

  • Enjoys a roasted nut (preferably the 'TonyTheRedNosedReindeer' variety)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,324
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #366 on: September 26, 2010, 11:05:24 am »
This place is like one of those little old fashioned shops you find that sells all kinds of fantastic curios.
The type of shop that is tucked away down a little back street, away from the hustle and bustle of the world outside.

It has little passing trade and the clientele are usually the same old regulars who appreciate the quality of the goods over the hype of the mass produced, over priced and over marketed media tat.

There is always a little gem to be found.

Bagpuss & Co.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #367 on: September 26, 2010, 11:09:25 am »
I thought someone else put this in already...

Paul, I read your posts often and see you exercising the very valuable function of defending Roy, when as you say, so many others are slating him often in terms of crude personal abuse. I want to debate with you why I am struggling to fulfil the traditional "support the manager" role of an LFC fan.

My problem is not solely that I don't think the current results are good enough, or that, if I'm honest, I'm a broken-hearted unreconstructed Rafanista who is still mourning not only his departure, but the loss of the dream of the future our club might have had, had he stayed.  I'm also a pragmatist and recognise that someone had to come in after him, who, providing he didn't make matters worse, I would happily support. But here's my problem: I think he is making matters worse than they need to be, even allowing for the dreadful and declining state the club is in.

The context here is that we had a truly shit season last year but we still finished two wins and a draw from 4th place and 10 minutes from a cup final, with the third meanest defence in the league. Not good enough for a club like ours but still very very far from being a completely irreversible decline. Hodgson has come in and all I want from him, all I expect from him, is that he shouldn't make things significantly worse. If he improves us, fine. Surprising, possibly, but fine. I am also entirely happy to concede that things might get a bit worse whilst he's here due to the club's worsening financial state and the toxic effect that has on the staff.

But even allowing for all that, even giving him as much slack as I possibly can, I still think he is making things worse than they need to be and i'll give you three examples:

1. He is divorcing the first team from the reserves and the academy. He talks openly of a "B" team, that he thinks is not up to scratch. The style the first 11 play is far removed from that which Borrell will be getting the academy to play. Roy's interests are short term - he needs results now and so had no qualms about shipping out youngsters if he could gain what he thought would give him a short term advantage. When he goes, and even with a following wind he's not going to be here more than 2 years, of that I'm sure, the club will have to remedy the consequences of his disinterest in our long-term future.

2. He is demoralising the playing staff unnecessarily. His comments after the Northampton defeat were cowardly and self-serving. He wants to deflect the pressure from himself and is happy to castigate his players to do that. The result is that we get the likes of Lawro announcing to the world that the squad isn't good enough. Now, logically, is a defeat by a League 2 side a sign that the squad isn't "good enough", or is it a sign that something very unexpected has happened? If we'd lost to  team we were expecting to play regularly, then that might tell us something valuable about the quality of our squad in context.  But now everyone is thinking our squad isn't even good enough to compete with League 2 teams, and that can't be good for those players' morale and self-esteem. Roy could have taken responsibility and deflected it away from the largely young/fringe players he fielded that day. Instead, to ensure that the spotlight shifted away from his own team selection and tactics he blamed them and has continued to do so since. I am very disappointed he made that choice.

3. The way he is asking the team to play is also adversely affecting our stars. Torres is isolated and lacks any decent service, and then has to face a media maelstrom that labels him diabolical and a cheat. What is that doing to his mood? I know the popular belief on here is that the fat pay cheque players receive means they aren't allowed to have emotions or react to the environment in which they operate, but they are human after all. Rafa said recently that Torres was always had the potential to be a star because of his innate talent, but that it was the fact that the team played to his strengths and the fact that the fans adored him that made Torres fly here at Liverpool.  Roy has taken away the team support element, and wants Torres to play a different way - his prerogrative as manager - but you can understand why Torres is struggling to adjust. Similar points could be made about Johnson and Agger, and ultimately what's happening on the pitch right now doesn't compensate for the shackling of these talents. There is a real risk that these lights will dim, without any up-side for us as a club. They'll be less valuable if we sell them, and we'll have done without their talents until they are sold.

All these things make it very hard for me to support him. Does that mean I'm less of a supporter? I'd say not, because my reservations relate to the possible consequences of his tenure for us as a club, but I'd be interested in your views.   


One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Marko B

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,922
  • Ray Osbourne RIP
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #368 on: September 29, 2010, 10:16:17 am »
I wasn't around to witness Shankly in action and just now took the time to look at the youtube clips. Heady days when Liverpool was great, an institution where people no doubt during tough times came and forgot their troubles for a couple of hours. The man looked to have the people in the palm of is hand hanging on his every word.

Now I wonder have we moved too far away to ever get to that level of success or even that level of unity between players, manager and fans. Look at us now. We all log in here to jump on the roy/rafa row. Players crib about not playing on twitter, or shake their heads when taken off. Managers trot out the same rubbish in interviews each week. I know it's a different era but the game is still the same in so many ways. We are in turmoil no doubt about it. But its still Liverpool.

Park the owners for a minute. Players and staff should be sat down, told you have all lost touch with what this place is all about. Watch these clips. This club was struggling when Shankly came in too, look what he made of it. But in his finest moments he still emphasised it was all about the people. Well guess what? It still is. So superstar or sub, captain or injured, local or foreign any day you get a jersey you empty yourself on the pitch, for the people. When things aren't going well for you you fight through it, the people will see you trying and they will respond to it.  Look at the enthusism in Shankly when he spoke of anfield and the kop. Compare that to the sulking millionaires we see more and more of these days. I understand that people who have spent their lives following the team can't bring themselves to go anymore, but there is a new generation of reds who need something to shout about. Embrace the past. Northampton wouldn't happen. The quest for 19 would be on again and not 19th place in the table.

The owners. Look at what we once were. Look at what you are doing to us. Sell up. This club is not about making a quick buck. When it was in it's pomp the people didn't have a penny but they sacrficed the basics to come and see the team play. Sell up and move on you don't understand. Give the club back to the people, the real custodians of LFC.

Then I looked at the clip of the greatest YNWA ever after the chelsea semi final. It struck me, was this the closest we came in the modern era to going back to the Shankly days. The joy on the players faces, the kop in full voice. The oppossition shellshocked on the pitch yet realising that nights like this are what its all about. This place is steeped in history that Stamford bridge will never see. Mourinho, whatever he said in his interview, applauding the fans as he knew this was a special place. The Spirit of Shankly.

These are worrying times for our club, but looking back on those Shankly clips gives hope. YNWA.
Quote from: Rafa Benitez
“I was not fighting for the power. I didn’t need more power. I was fighting for the future of the club.”

Offline Brave Lee Flea

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • Brave Lee turned his tail and fled....
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #369 on: September 29, 2010, 01:13:50 pm »
Just found the thread and am loving it.

Me too.
I'm a believer.

Offline Marko B

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,922
  • Ray Osbourne RIP
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #370 on: October 3, 2010, 08:19:05 am »
Only two possible seeds in the back of our minds sprout to a sacking of Roy Hodgson. One is knee-jerkism. He can't win matches, and the team looks like shit. The other stems from looking ahead, extrapolating the current trajectory, and cutting losses, essentially betting that all else being equal - reduced revenue from loss of CL revenue, crippling interest payments, indebted absentee owners, borderline supporter mutiny, potential administration, possible relegation aside - the future is marginally better without Hodgson than with.

Knee-jerkism is a poisonous trait to have, to be sure. Six games into a new managerial reign may indeed be too little time to try, judge, and execute a new manager. Rafa's early results were worse than Roy's are now in some ways - a home loss to Graz versus 5 straight wins to start a European campaign. League results weren't that much better under Rafa in the early days. I'd argue that Trabzon is a tougher result than Anfield. It could get better with Roy here, and not someone else. After all, it's happened that way before.

However, it is my opinion that the best possible outcome for the future of the club probably does not involve Roy Hodgson at the helm of football matters. That much is clear. Even if future results get better, this team cannot evolve into anything substantial. It is too old, it is too expensive, it has too little money for replacements, and it is dangerously unbalanced to the detriment of certain glaring positions.

The competitions by which Roy is judged are at best distractions that will not earn enough for a Torres or Mascherano, assuming that Roy would even know one if he saw it. Those who masturbate to fantasies of a benevolent owner spunking his fortune on making sure you don't have to understand the concept of a viable business may now stop reading. That Graz result was worth a more than than the five UEFA cup results that Hodgson has mastered. A domestic cup run solves nothing. FA Cup prize money - even for the winner - will not pay Joe Cole's salary for the year. Fact.

Benitez prioritized the Champions League because reaching the final is worth about two league titles. First place in the league and seventh place in the league are separated by only 5m quid, or approximately one Christian Poulson. Reaching the final is worth 30m quid, or approximately 3 young Xabi Alonsos, if you got your scouting right. And Roy doesn't do body counts.

Even if we swerve every other potential disaster, this squad is aging, expensive, and will only get older and more expensive under current transfer policy. Just as Roy has no Plan B, Squad B, or Media Cheat Sheet B, his squad is quickly shooting its own future in the foot. Alonso, Garcia and Josemi or Poulsen, Meireles and Konchesky? Hint - the right answer includes a winning lottery ticket worth thirty million quid. We're not even buying the tickets now.

One thing that's striking about the communistic nature of American sport is that once a team knows it's licked, it immediately identifies the youth as either the future of the struggling club, or as bait for funding or replacements, and dumps the longterm contracts of the aging, knowing that results don't matter because there is a basement. If you're gonna lose, you might as well do it with Insua and Lucas instead of Poulsen and Konchesky. It's cheaper and you have two tickets to the Brazil 2014 lottery. Poulsen and Konchesky will be pensioners by the time Lucas and Insua go to Brazil.

But here, the difference in league positions means fuck all in financial terms; it serves only bragging rights. The competition for the top four's lucrative spots is fierce, and we won't get there with Roy's team. City has a bottomless pit of money. Ancellotti's team is a decent bet for best in Europe. United are flailing like King Kong falling off a building, but still own the wild cards. Spurs are borderline settled, with good signings, and are even performing well with injuries. Ged's got a point to prove at Villa, and his donkey's really excited. We on the other hand have Roy Hodgson, who is under mounds of pressure to deliver results in a league that doesn't even count financially, especially considering that winning the damn thing wouldn't even cover a quarter of our interest expense.

Every spot we gain in the league has a delta of practically Fuck All, outside of the top four (potential windfall) and the bottom three (utter financial disaster). Roy talks about the former, in a vague and broadly accepted as unattainable goal of "top four". We will not end up in the top four. Anywhere below doesn't really matter as long as it's above the bottom three.

So then what really is point of Roy Hodgson exactly? He's not the one who can sort through the Riojas, picking the rights one to drink and cellaring the rest. The longer he stays here, the more likely it is that he tries to raise money for overpriced aging shot-term solutions by selling what precious Riojas we have left. That is his policy. Insua should be a warning - 8 years younger than Konchesky, and probably makes half as much per week. Seventh place earns about 10m quid in prize money while twelfth earns 7m. We fuck him off for less than a million euros and then send 4 times that amount plus 2 kids to Fulham for a 29 year old journeyman backed up by a disgruntled centreback and a crock who refused a pay as you play deal for obvious reasons.

His transfer policy can't get the basics right. His matchday selections are even worse. Four centrebacks in a loss against a 4th division team with one of them up front, and not a sub until the end of the match.

To top it off, he himself is a steady the ship appointee on a three year deal worth 9m that cost a further 6.5m to hire. A manager on a 3 year contract who has no track record of delivering 3 years of results. His team features a number of new signings on 4 year contracts who have not delivered 4 years of results. A punter would be best off betting on a wilting of the tree, really, as opposed to a steadying of the ship.

If it's instant success we delude ourselves into expecting, Roy is probably not our best bet. That much is clear: there are no instant results, not even a dessert at the end of lunch at Nando's. If it's medium term survivalism we crave, Roy again is not the the answer, because the difference in revenue between league positions isn't even worth the millions of pounds it cost to bring him in. If it's laying the longer-term groundwork for future chess masters, Roy again is not is the answer. He spends on Poulsens when he has Luci.

The Roy Keane saga should a lesson in cutting losses early before they grow too large. The situation we find ourselves in is not one that Roy Hodgson is probably capable to solving. We have enough shit to worry about without mortgaging the future for journeymen who aren't delivering results. The longer he stays here, the deeper the hole he will dig for us to climb out of.

The risk of ending up with a geriatric squad on disproportionately large wages that has nothing to play for increases with each passing week. If he can't get the best out of what he has, what use is he exactly? At the very least, if all he's bringing is is shit wine to the party, he shouldn't be allowed to pop open the bottles that were stored for 2015.

We should cut our losses now. Kenny Dalglish is a better bet at steadying the ship, both on the pitch and off it. He asked for the job. He should be given it as soon as possible.

Pure quality that sums up the way many of us are feeling far more eloquently than many of us could. Well done El
Quote from: Rafa Benitez
“I was not fighting for the power. I didn’t need more power. I was fighting for the future of the club.”

Offline INABITSKI

  • An own-nut-fondling manly man's wool. Possibly.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,153
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #371 on: October 3, 2010, 08:23:56 am »
Just when I thought EL C couldn't write something better than his last piece, he out does himself again.

Offline Mal

  • adjusted. The Preston Heston is Aylesbury Ducked. Accepts rubbers from any Dick.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,649
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #372 on: October 3, 2010, 08:26:51 am »
Just when I thought EL C couldn't write something better than his last piece, he out does himself again.

Yep.

Kenny represents a double edged sword but at the moment I think we have to go there.
@ManifoldReasons

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #373 on: October 3, 2010, 08:03:44 pm »
As long as we do not get relegated, it doesn't matter what position we end up in. The net difference in prize money is very small, and since we all know Champions League football next season is a pipe dream now, 4 or 5 million quid here or there doesn't really mean much. It's harsh, I know, but you have to separate emotion from analysis.

What matters more is the state of the club after the Roy Hodgson era is over. If Roy costs this club 3-4 young players who go on to become 10m+ players while signing 29 year olds who will depreciate to zero, any new owner will have to eat that loss. Far better to keep the youth and sell the aging, for the club's sake *regardless* of future ownership.

But Hodgson has overseen an alarming reduction in squad value so far, not to mention future potential. Each asset he buys is worth less with each passing day. Lucas cost 6.5m and with proper negotiation, may be sold for at least that much, if not more. Potentially, his stock could rise two fold. Insua is the same. However, Poulsen will never, ever be worth what we paid for him. Neither will Konchesky. Joe Cole costs us 4m a year, has already earned around that much in a signing bonus, and it's difficult to envision a scenario in which we sell him next year for 12m. 

It's a distinct possibility that we will not get new owners even if RBS forces Hicks' hand. Even if we are sold, there is no guarantee that the next owner will be a benevolent one who has more money than business sense. Someone who bottom-fishes for cheap investment opportunities rarely overspends.

For that reason, we must arrest the decline and lock the doors as soon as possible. We spent years thinking Mash was worth twice as much as he was eventually sold for. Insua walked away for salary. I used to think we'd get 60m for Torres; now I feel that he can name his team, and force our hand into paying about half that.

Roy's not a negotiator. He's not a brilliant strategist. He's not renowned for his scouting brilliance. And we've now seen that he's not a steadier of the ship. The longer he sticks around, the more expensive his shortcomings will become.

The longer Hodgson sticks around, the more Riojas get popped for lunch. Sooner rather than later, the wine cellar will be empty while we all are still pimping ourselves to fantasy owners.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #374 on: October 3, 2010, 09:40:45 pm »
I was literally just popping in here to post that, a depressing but sobering and wholly justified assessment from El Camp, I agree with him completely, but more to the point it's just brilliantly written and expressed.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #375 on: October 3, 2010, 09:44:31 pm »
I was literally just popping in here to post that, a depressing but sobering and wholly justified assessment from El Camp, I agree with him completely, but more to the point it's just brilliantly written and expressed.
It's certainly difficult to argue against
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #376 on: October 3, 2010, 09:51:23 pm »
Pure quality that sums up the way many of us are feeling far more eloquently than many of us could. Well done El
That's even better than the one I was going to quote - though I don't agree on the Dalglish part, for the very reasons El Camp outlines, I think the role he's doing right now is absolutely fucking crucial, he's a very powerful cork in terms of those bottled Rioja's.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #377 on: October 3, 2010, 10:14:51 pm »
That's even better than the one I was going to quote


Not really, it was at the tail end of a bottle of tequila blanco and it's making me cringe that I said Roy instead of Robbie Keane. Whoops.

Those Irish names all sound the same to my barbarian ears  ;)

Offline The Gulleysucker

  • RAWK's very own spinached up Popeye. Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,496
  • An Indolent Sybarite
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #378 on: October 3, 2010, 10:17:31 pm »

You should have read the unabridged version he posted last night that was taken down pronto....Absolute Gold  ;)
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,363
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #379 on: October 3, 2010, 10:23:06 pm »
Pure quality that sums up the way many of us are feeling far more eloquently than many of us could. Well done El
Fucking brilliant post, email it to the papers.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Hank Scorpio

  • is really a Virgo, three pinter. Royhendo's stalker.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,939
  • POOLCHECK HOMIE
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #380 on: October 4, 2010, 09:31:25 am »
Pure quality that sums up the way many of us are feeling far more eloquently than many of us could. Well done El
Quality El C.

Just one thing though.  I'm not certain it is Hodgson who is calling all the transfers so it's difficult to judge him on it.

Offline Ginamos

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,311
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #381 on: October 4, 2010, 02:03:11 pm »
Quote from: El Campeador


Fantastic post

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #382 on: October 4, 2010, 03:49:16 pm »
Another absolute belter from E2K, are his posts ever anything less?

They're protecting themselves.

Sure, sometimes you think to yourself that the consistent failure of these people to understand even the simplest of events is solely down to them not even having enough braincells to form a five-a-side pub team. And most of the time you'd be right. In this case, however, nobody's going to tell me that Hansen isn't aware of what's going on at Liverpool. You don't need to have been captain of the club for the best part of a decade to have a basic grasp of that. Hansen and many more of our former players, the ones you might expect to be following Thommo's example and actually doing something positive for their former employers by speaking out and telling the truth, have been eerily silent and, in many cases, have actually been spreading misinformation. Hansen's "forget the manager, forget the owners" comment last night is a prime example.

To me, it's just another case of going with the flow, sticking to an agenda that might not be theirs but damned if they're going to deviate too much from it. After all, what's in it for them to rock the boat? Nothing. These people are comfortable, way too comfortable to be sticking their heads above the parapet and making a stand for the club they supposedly love. In my view, it’s also one of the main reasons that their logic regarding Rafa always seemed so skewed and distorted (not to mention nonsensical). The general flow of opinion was only ever going one way, why go against the grain? I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the only ex-players I heard defending Rafa last season (John Barnes and Peter Beardsley) are not professional pundits, and therefore, have no agenda to stick to. I don’t know what they’re doing with themselves these days, but I rarely see or hear either of them talk about the game. A lot of our ex-players, on the other hand, make a comfortable living off television, radio and newspapers, and feel no responsibility (or affection) for this club anymore, at least not as much as they do for their pay cheques. That’s the reality.

I don't want to bring this back to Rafa too much, believe it or not I'm doing my best to forget him out of pure necessity. But look at the evidence. Even last season, his worst at the club, many of our ex-players sought to ignore the real causes for concern (yes, for once they actually had some real reasons to criticise him) and instead continued to twist facts and outright lie. Remember Ronnie Whelan stating on RTE that the Liverpool side which beat Debrecen 1-0 at Anfield cost £250m? But once again, Hansen was the best example of logic being butchered and the truth twisted to suit an agenda. In an article published on 19th October 2009, Hansen said the following: "Benítez has struggled in the £3-10m region...Benítez hasn't done well with anybody in that price region...over a length of time, you need four or five players in the £3-10m bracket to become great buys, but I don't see any at Liverpool."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/6366147/Alan-Hansen-Liverpool-cannot-afford-to-lose-this-week.html

This is not the place to argue his point, merely to state what Hansen said. By 4th June 2010, in the immediate aftermath of Rafa's exit, Hansen had altered his position...er, somewhat. "Benítez has had money to spend, but when he has bought players in the mid-range market of £3-5 million, they just have not been good enough and that is why Liverpool's bench has been so poor in recent months."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/7801708/Alan-Hansen-the-time-was-right-for-Rafael-Benitez-to-leave-Liverpool.html

So suddenly, Rafa's signings in the £5-10m bracket were ok then? And exactly how many top players have the big clubs bought in that tiny £3-5m window? It doesn't matter. Clearly someone had pointed out to Hansen after his October article (Paul Tomkins for one) that Pepe Reina (£6m) was an undisputed superb signing in the aforementioned £3-10m price range. But instead of dropping it, he simply moved the goalposts in order to fit what he wanted to say. Never mind that the examples he used to prove his point in his first article (£7m Vidic and £5.5m Evra) were now effectively excluded. The idea was to conjure up reasons for Rafa's sacking that fit a certain profile. It's what they all spent last season and beyond doing, and before anyone says anything, there were obviously causes for concern last season. What I'm saying is that every one of these ex-Liverpool players turned pundits completely ignored those (possibly because they weren't sexy enough) and concentrated on twisting the facts into something bigger. Hansen was one of the worst offenders, so what he said last night didn't surprise me in the least.

I used to think that Hansen was different to the others, but clearly I was wrong. Uber-respect as always for what he achieved as a player, that goes without saying, but I expect nothing from him these days, or his ilk. These ex-Liverpool players that we all so admired when they played for us have since reinvented themselves as pundits (Hansen, Whelan, Lawrenson, Redknapp (ok, "admired" might be a strong word here), Houghton, McMahon, Molby, Souness). Have we heard any of them making much noise about the real issues at the club as we know them? Which is funny because you couldn’t shut the fuckers up last season. These individuals have made a living based on the fact that they used to play for this club, the implication always being that they “know” the club inside out, that they have some kind of insight into it. Where better to get the inside track on all that ails Liverpool than former captain and legend Alan Hansen / Ronnie Whelan / Graeme Souness, right? Yet they have no sense of responsibility whatsoever. They embrace the "legend" tag willingly while shunning the club that gave it to them in the first place.

Which is why it’s so damaging when Alan Hansen simply dismisses the protests and the ownership issue like his did last night. “Forget the manager, forget the owners.” And people are out there taking this as gospel because this is Alan Hansen! I had a feeling of foreboding from the moment I saw him squashed onto the couch beside Seedorf and Dixon. Hansen never appears on MOTD 2, am I right? But the red flashing phone in Wayne Hansen Manor must have been ringing off the hook as soon as Kyrgiakos’ header was saved deep into injury-time yesterday afternoon. “Shit, Liverpool have lost at home to Blackpool, they’re in the relegation zone, get Hansen in here now!!” (I wonder how much his fee was last night, by the way, from a television corporation funded by the tax-payer?) And once again, what depth of anlysis did we get? Put it this way, if Alan Hansen's MOTD 2 analysis last night was a swimming pool, I'd let my toddler go in the deep-end.

But, as I've alluded to, I don't think we can blame stupidity for this. Just like Hansen's shifting of the goalposts last season with regard to Rafa to suit an agenda, that's exactly what he and his kind are doing this season with the real issues at the club. Certain ex-players (Molby and Whelan that I know of) have already explicitly stated that this is Rafa's fault. Meanwhile, no criticism whatsoever has been sent in Roy Hodgson's direction, despite the manifold faults exhibited by our manager thus far. And for the most part (Thommo being the most honourable of exceptions) the ownership/refinancing issue has been swept under the carpet. What Hansen said last night is no different to what Jeff Stelling said about the supporters concentrating on what's happening on the pitch, or Colin Murray's idiotic aside after they showed pictures of the march, something along the lines of "the Blackpool fans are the exact opposite, win, lose, or draw they're singing and supporting their team, they're just awesome," as if to say the Liverpool fans who marched should be more like them (and he's one of us you say?).

It all follows a pattern, it's fitting an agenda, and anyone who watched the half-arsed broadsides and insidious half-truths and lies launched at Rafa over, not one, but six years should know very well that this is what's happening, and also that it works. It does work. Well all I'll say is that you can have tremendous amounts of respect for what someone did on the football pitch, but there comes a time to man the fuck up and take a stand for something you love and care about. Hansen and the others who would absolve the owners (even partially) and Hodgson, instead putting the blame solely on the players (and they deserve their share, but not all of it) or Rafa Benitez, are either cowards or they don't give a shit about this club. There is no option C as far as I'm concerned.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline Shabby

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,214
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #383 on: October 4, 2010, 04:01:21 pm »
That's a cracking post as usual from E2K. It deserves a much wider audience.
£15m? It seems low, but what people have to remember is that the fee is irrelevant.

Offline hesbighesred

  • Wallasey Wrecker. But you can call me quick fingers. After a threesome with Stevie and Alex
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,440
    • Collaborative thoughts on Euro 2012
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #384 on: October 4, 2010, 04:04:10 pm »
That's a cracking post as usual from E2K. It deserves a much wider audience.
I humbly submit that the man deserves his own newspaper column, at the very least. Sadly his nasty habits of researching the facts then calling them as he sees them, rather than inventing or following an agenda and twisting the evidence to suit that narrative is entirely unsuitable in today's fast paced, modern and superior world of media 'product'.

NB, the above may contain sarcasm.

Further NB, the sarcastic bit is not the bit about agreeing entirely that E2K deserves wider exposure.
He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline LIVusa34

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #385 on: October 4, 2010, 04:19:07 pm »
fantastic thread and a couple great posts on this page

Offline RedRush

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,583
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #386 on: October 4, 2010, 04:37:20 pm »
Cracking post from E2K that. Mirrors my feelings about the ex-players club but I could never write that well!

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #387 on: October 4, 2010, 07:40:37 pm »
E2K is a legend. I always enjoy the time it takes to read his fantastic contributions to RAWK.

Offline RedRush

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,583
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #388 on: October 4, 2010, 07:44:59 pm »
^^^^^

And I enjoy this man's fantastic posts as well.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #389 on: October 5, 2010, 03:53:26 pm »

In the light of Lawton and his volte face last night, I think it's started.

The only way Hodgson is going to go is one that enables everyone involved in his appointment and the subsequent media support for him to be able to save face.

To do this will involve considerable spin and propaganda to perhaps portray that the job has somehow turned out to be not as originally specified.

To an extent the guilty parties have already started to prepare the ground for this through their media contacts with the ludicrous references to the players that Hodgson has inherited now being talentless etc and therefore it's all Rafas fault.

Hodgson himself has also been doing his best to offload blame on anyone and anything other than his misplaced tactics and mysterious signing decisions (while foolishly trumpeting his faith and self belief in his own infallible ability)

After all, if Hodgson is sacked outright and so soon, Purslow and Broughton look idiots and the truth might possibly come out about as to when Hodgson was perhaps first approached and actually offered the job (perhaps before Dalglish even knew Rafa was going? I don't know, but it might explain a mystery and support AL555's conjectures), so I doubt that will happen.

I said the other week, a good easy and possibly amicable option, especially as he's 63 and in all truth isn't looking too good at the moment, is for him to be encouraged to resign for health reasons. Maybe not just yet, I think we are destined for a least a few more weeks of this abject misery, but probably before Christmas.

He won't get paid the full £6m of his contract but he can preserve his technical reputation and he'll not be short of a bob or two so I'm not going to feel that he's been hard done by, and I'll wish him well, it wasn't really his fault other than his own misplaced ego that he even got appointed, and after 6 months R&R he could be up for appointment again somewhere foreign and go back to being 'uncle' Roy.

But don't think we'll come out of this free from criticism. All the guilty parties will do their best to heap the blame for his demise on 'unrealistic' fan pressure, those nasty unappreciative Liverpool supporters, and of course the legacy of Rafa, but never themselves and their decisions.

But, the decision has to be made sooner rather than letting Hodgson cause even more long term irrecoverable havoc in the January window to pile on top of the potential damage he's already inflicted so far, as pointed out in El C's excellent post.

As for who to take over from him? well Dalglish would undoubtedly be galvanising, like Churchill returning to the Admiralty, and I like to think that he'd have short shrift with any of the alleged nonsense from the me and the bootle and read the riot act to them all, but I don't think he will be offered it as Purslow and Broughton had already turned him down to appoint Hodgson, so that would again make them look stupid. But make no mistake, they have got themselves in a box so how they will react is very unpredictable and short of logic and heaven knows who we'll end up with.

Perhaps it should be offered to bootle as player manager, he's the one with the ambition and the ideas of where people should be playing, and he might even have to not pick himself all the time, which could be an added bonus.

But it's a total and catastrophic shambles, and I'm mentally prepared now for us to get relegated this season.

It was so predictable to some of us. It's not like you weren't warned.

One things for sure, Agent Broughton seems to have had success in ensuring Chelsea will have one less rival over the coming years.

Not a single word in there I disagree with. Incredibly shrewd analysis. Great post.

I love RAWK.

Offline Aristotle

  • is a bugger for the bottle. Apache tool wielder extraordinaire - especially in wardrobes. The 'Oral B' Specialist.....brushes his cavities vigorously outdoors.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,438
  • Happiness depends upon ourselves
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #390 on: October 17, 2010, 08:13:16 pm »
I'll open up with a little honesty: No, I did not want Roy Hodgson, nor did I want Rafa sacked.

I felt and still feel a great deal of bitterness towards the way a man who truly understood the club and the city was forced out of his job by the xenophobic british media,  a clueless board, certain wankshafts in our own support, and if certain rumours are to be believed, our own egotistical, ageing, big-headed players.    However, if Rafa was to go, and at the end of the day I accept he's gone, and despite my feelings, will probably never return, I didn't want him to be  replaced by a manager who was clearly inferior.  I wanted Dalglish.  Honestly. And someone like xerxes with his Machiavellian opinions will probably come  along and stick the knife in a legend of the club again, saying he is past his best, that he's been out of the game too long, that he doesn't understand; but  I don't really give a fuck about that.  I wanted someone who had some visions of success. Who had been one. And/or someone who understood what Liverpool  Football Club was about.  Not only that, I wanted someone who hadn't been pushed into the job, his candidacy forced, by the 'great British media'. 

It didn't happen, obviously.  So much so that to quote another post I read around the time, when the season finally kicked off, I felt like I was watching the first Liverpool manager appointed by Sky Sports.  And it was depressing.  But it's not me nor is it 'The Liverpool Way' (personally I think that died a while ago, but whatever, it's obviously important to some people) to stick the knife in the manager before he has started.  So I gave him a chance as we all did.  And, yknow, originally he wasn't bad.  Arsenal was an interesting game.  Played well.  But the first signs of trouble came. 'I was happy with the draw'.  But you know, we had 10 men. Fair enough.  But then when he's happy to draw away at Birmingham.  When he derides the future of the club as 'the B-team' after they don't win a game against Northampton playing his shitty tactics.  When he plays Raul Mereles on the right hand side of midfield to accomodate Gerrard in midfield.  When he says 'my expectations weren't that high anyway'.  When he describes Daniel Agger as 'on the wrong side of 30'.  When he calls SOS and concerned fans 'that group of people' before a protest, you wonder if he understands what it means to be Liverpool manager.  You wonder if he knows where he is, or what he's doing.

Finally, the nadir, today.  I just watched a team in the merseyside derby, one of the biggest games in our season, who clearly had no intentions of trying to win the game.  That's one thing I liked about Rafa and that has been a constant thread in our history. 'We will try to win.'  Right now I don't feel like I'm watching a team that wants to win.  I don't feel like I'm watching a team that can win, even if they wanted to, because of the submissive, two banks of four, ultra defensive style of play.  Worse still I'm watching a manager who doesn't appear to want to win.  I know that sounds daft , but you hear him in the press conferences.  We seem happy to be nothing.  Happy to let other teams dictate play.  Happy with draws or close defeats. It sickens me.  Liverpool is about winning; about success; about trophies.  It's not about 'formidable opponents' or 'happy with the draw'.  Shankly would absolutely hammer a Hodgson side. Why? Because no matter who they were up against, he believed he could, nay should, win.  'We'll beat Ajax 5-0'.  And people believed him, and the team believed him, and the team believed it, because that was the ethos he fostered.  As for the 'Fat Spanish Waiter' that Sky didn't like...'We are Liverpool, you are playing for Liverpool. Give yourself a chance to be heroes.'  And we did. 3-0 down to 3-3 and the greatest night in my life.  Fans singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'.  The players believed. The fans believed. Why? Because our manager did.  Each manager has continued that.  They understood Liverpool. Its mystique. Its history.  They knew 'first is first and second is nowhere.'  Roy Hodgson does not.  From the ethos of Shankly, we've suddenly started thinking as a mid table side. A submissive side.  A side that no longer believes it can win.  And when such comments are publicly made by the manager, how can anyone be surprised when it filters through to the pitch?

People can make the excuse about Rafa leaving a bad side. He didn't.  Look at the abilities of 'his' players and look at what Roy's brought in.  Consider the fact that Rafa had the same 'bad squad' in 7th last year, and that was considered failure. What the fuck is 19th?  Reina, Johnson, Agger (not picked by Hodgson, inexplicably), Aquilani (got rid of by Hodgson), Torres, Kuyt.  Beyond the first team, Ngog, Ayala, Suso, Pacheco.  Also made the likes of Gerrard and Carragher into even better footballers. The irony is, if they forced him out, I wonder what they're thinking now?

And yeah, thats it. I don't care if I'm a kneejerking c*nt or I'm not following the Liverpool Way. I want him out.  It's too late to salvage. If he does not understand Liverpool Football Club and the ethos around it now, then he never will.  The media and their bias can fuck off.  Any of the pro-Roy posters on this board and the pro-Roy writers in the papers cannot tell me shit looks, tastes and feels like cake.  I know what I'm seeing, I know what I'm hearing, and it is a man who is utterly in over his head. If he has any pride or any humility, he must go now, and this club must make a fresh start with our new owners, and become the progressive, successful football club that we should be.

The future starts now.  Start it off right.

Brilliant. Simply brilliant
My twitter
If Harry can get Spurs to the CL 1/4 final then he could get England to the World Cup final.

Offline redalways

  • ...so needs a pair of clean knickers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,613
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #391 on: October 17, 2010, 10:41:11 pm »
Kenny till the end of the season. Then Carragher to be the next Manager of LFC.

Offline gamble

  • andproctor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,822
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #392 on: October 17, 2010, 10:42:01 pm »
Then Carragher to be the next Manager of LFC.

no way.

Offline JP-65

  • FA/UEFA/FIFA are not fit for purpose
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,750
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #393 on: October 17, 2010, 11:05:18 pm »
Kenny till the end of the season. Then Carragher to be the next Manager of LFC.

Kenny can be an interim manager, but there is no chance in hell that Carra is remotely qualified to be manager of LFC.

Offline the 92A

  • Alberto Incontidor. Peneus. Phantom Thread Locker. Mr Bus. But there'll be another one along soon enough. Almost as bad as Jim...
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,029
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #394 on: October 17, 2010, 11:48:20 pm »
Always against Kenny coming back. didn't want to see him damage his reputation before the ownwership problem was sorted. Now he really is someone who could steady the ship. Remember when Kenny took over, the team came first, he stopped playing himself probably abit too early, for a footballer to do this shows the ability to seperate whats good for the team from his own personal interests. Experience is a great teacher and maybe Carragher is learning a valuable lesson at the moment that will help him in his future coaching career but untill he learns that lesson he'll be a footballer with an interest in the game rather than a potential manager.
Still Dreaming of a Harry Quinn

Offline paKopite

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #395 on: October 18, 2010, 02:27:47 am »
Carra .. haha .. the back stabbing so and so ... the prospects of him getting a taste of his own medicine will frighten him away

Offline INABITSKI

  • An own-nut-fondling manly man's wool. Possibly.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,153
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #396 on: October 18, 2010, 05:32:25 pm »

Offline Mutton Geoff

  • 'The Invigilator'
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,663
  • Life is a journey, not a destination.
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #397 on: October 18, 2010, 05:33:32 pm »
Kenny till the end of the season. Then Carragher to be the next Manager of LFC.

jeez no we would be Wimbledon
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Chakan

  • Chaka Chaka.....is in love with Aristotle but only for votes. The proud owner of some very private piles and an inflatable harem! Winner of RAWK's Carabao Cup captian contest.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 91,079
  • Internet Terrorist lvl VI
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #398 on: October 18, 2010, 05:58:06 pm »
Some Rafa Facts to Remind Us of What We Lost and Why We Want Him Back (compiled by Paul Tomkins)

2004-05

In his 1st home game in charge (Man City) Liverpool came from behind at half-time to win a game for the first time in more than 5 years.
At Fulham (October 2004) the Reds came from behind at half-time to win an away game for the 1st time in 13 years.
Liverpool became the 1st British club to ‘keep’ the European Cup following a 5th Final success.
Steven Gerrard became the 2nd youngest player to captain a European Cup winning team.

2005-06

Became only the 3rd team, and the 1st British side, to win the European Super Cup 3 times.
Steven Gerrard became the 1st Liverpool player in history to score in 5 successive European matches.
Kept clean sheets in each of their opening 4 league games for the 1st time in the club’s history.
Sami Hyypia played in a 56th consecutive European game – breaking the club record for an outfield player (he extended that record to 57).
Liverpool set a new club record of 11 consecutive clean sheets (Oct-Dec 2005).
Went 762 minutes without conceding a league goal (a post-war club record).
Won 10 league games in a row for the 1st time in 15 years.
At Luton Liverpool scored 5 goals in an away F.A. Cup tie for the 1st time in 59 years.
Liverpool beat Manchester United for the 1st time in the F.A. Cup for 85 years.
Recorded their biggest ever away win in the F.A. Cup (7-0 at Birmingham) and the biggest by any team away from home in the Quarter-Finals for 106 years.
Conceded only 8 league goals at home – their 3rd best total ever.
Set a club record of 12 successive wins in all competitions (it was extended to 14 at the start of the following season).
By lifting the F.A. Cup became the 1st manager in the club’s history to win a trophy in each of his first 2 seasons in charge.
Set a club record of 21 goals scored by substitutes in a season – previous record was 12.
Achieved the 6th-highest accumulation of available league points in the club’s history, and at the time, the 2nd-highest ever number of wins (as a % of games played)

2006-07

Recorded his 50th league win in just 93 games – a record bettered by only 2 Liverpool managers of the previous 57 years, Dalglish and Shankly.
Went unbeaten in 30 successive home league games for only the 4th time in their history.
Scored 4 goals in the 1st half of an away league game (at Wigan) for the 1st time in 15 years.
Pepe Reina kept more clean sheets in his first 50 league games (28) than any other goalkeeper in the club’s history.
Jamie Carragher played in a club record 58th game in the European Cup.
Jamie Carragher made a club record 90th appearance in all European competition.
Conceded only 7 league goals at home – best total for 28 years.
Only second English side to win in Nou Camp (previous one was Liverpool in 1976).
Reached second Champions League final in three seasons. (If ‘lucky’ to win in 2005, the Reds were ‘unlucky’ to lose in 2007.)

2007-08

Beat Beşiktaş 8-0 to record the biggest ever Champions League victory.
Scored 4 goals in a game on 8 occasions before Christmas for only the 3rd time in club’s history.
Steven Gerrard scored his 23rd European goal – to break the club record.
Pepe Reina kept his 50th league clean sheet in his 92nd appearance – breaking club record of 95 held by Ray Clemence.
Steven Gerrard became the 1st Liverpool player ever to score in 5 successive European games in the same season.
Fernando Torres became the 1st Liverpool player in 62 years to a hat-trick in successive home league games.
Jamie Carragher became the 1st Liverpool player to play 100 European games for the club.
Fernando Torres became the 1st player in 12 years to score 20 league goals for the club.
Pepe Reina kept 54 clean sheets in his first 100 league games to break the club record held by Ray Clemence.
Steven Gerrard became the 1st Liverpool player to score in 4 successive home European games.
Fernando Torres became the 1st Liverpool player to score in 7 successive top-flight home league games.
Rafa Benitez won 81 of his first 150 league games in charge. Only Kenny Dalglish (87) won more as Liverpool manager.
Ryan Babel equalled the club record of most goals in a season scored by a substitute (7).
Liverpool had 6 players who scored 10 goals or more in a season. Only the 3rd time this had happened in the club’s history.
Fernando Torres equalled the club record by scoring in an 8th successive home league game (all divisions).
Fernando Torres scored 24 league goals – most by any Liverpool player in a debut season for 61 years.
Fernando Torres broke Ruud Van Nistelrooy’s record of most goals in a debut Premier league season by an overseas player.
Pepe Reina won the Golden Glove for the 3rd successive season.
Liverpool scored 119 goals in the season – more than any team in England.

2008-09

In 2008 recorded their highest points tally in a calendar year (81) for 18 years.
Liverpool won 9 successive home league games for the 1st time since November 1990.
Fernando Torres became the club’s 2nd highest ever scorer in his first 50 games (34 goals).
Ryan Babel became the club’s 2nd highest ever goalscoring substitute (with 8 goals).
Liverpool came from behind to defeat Manchester United in the league for the 1st time in 42 years.
End Chelsea’s 84-game unbeaten home record.
Became only the 2nd English team to win in the Bernabeu.
At Anfield inflicted upon Real Madrid their biggest ever Champions League defeat.
Steven Gerrard became only the 2nd Liverpool player to play 100 times for the club in Europe.
Recorded their biggest win at Old Trafford for 72 years. It was also the 1st time 4 Liverpool players had scored at United in the same game.
Led the table for the 1st time ever in the Premiership with 2 games to play.
Broke Bill Shankly’s record of 65 European matches as Liverpool manager.
Broke Bob Paisley’s record of 40 European wins as Liverpool manager.
Recorded his 100th league win as manager in his 181st game. It was the 3rd quickest ever by a Liverpool manager and 50 games faster than Alex Ferguson.
Equalled club record set in 1904-05 by winning 13 away league games.
Amassed their highest points total ever in the Premier League (86) beating the 82 set in 2005-06. Their highest in the league since 1987-88.
Scored at least 3 goals in 6 successive games in all competitions for the 1st time in the club’s history.
Finished the campaign with a goal difference of + 50 – their best for 21 years when they amassed + 63 in 1987-88.
Lost just twice in the league – equalling the fewest they had lost in a league campaign for 105 years.
Fernando Torres scored 33 goals in his first 50 league games for the club – the best by any Liverpool player for 52 years.
Pepe Reina kept his 100th clean sheet in the fastest time in Liverpool history (197 games).
Won 75% of all available league points – 2nd highest in the club’s history.
The highest number of points by any team which failed to win the league (38 game seasons)

2009-10

Went unbeaten in 31 home league games – their 3rd longest ever run and best for 32 years.
Against Manchester United recorded his 114th league win in his 200th game. The 2nd best tally by any Liverpool manager in first 200 league games (Kenny Dalglish 120 wins).
Liverpool won a 3rd successive league game at Everton for only 3rd time in club’s history.
Yossi Benayoun scored a hat-trick against Burnley to become only the 5th player in the club’s history to score a hat-trick in 3 different competitions.
Pepe Reina set a new club record of most clean sheets (79) in first 150 league games.
Liverpool scored 22 goals in opening 7 league games – best tally for 114 years and 2nd best ever.
Broke club record by scoring in an 18th successive Premier League game at Anfield.
Fernando Torres broke the club record by scoring his 50th league goal for Liverpool in just his 72nd match.

(Correct up to January 23rd 2010)

And we let them kick him out on the strength of one relatively poor season in which we only finished seventh in the league (but with more points than Everton when they finished fourth in Moyes's best season 2004/05) and only made it to the Europa League semi-final.

Offline INABITSKI

  • An own-nut-fondling manly man's wool. Possibly.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,153
Re: Some quality/important posts you may have missed
« Reply #399 on: October 18, 2010, 06:07:55 pm »
It's a funny one isn't it. I have to admit to feeling a bit of a hypocrite - last season I used the 'Liverpool fans stand by their manager' line more than once during the interminable Rafa debates. But I can't bring myself to do it now.

Not because of my admiration for Rafa - I want Roy out because of the damage he is doing and I want him out before he does any more.

I know some will say that some of the issues below are not his fault and that Purslow was to blame. But isn't that indicative that we got the wrong man, could you imagine Dalglish or Pellegrini or Rijkaard or Deschamps sitting idly back while good players are sold or loaned?

Roy's damage:

Rather than putting an end to disruptive player power, he's pandered to it and made it even more of an English clique running the club. No wonder Torres looks fucked off. Cole and Gerrard expect to play where they want, and Carra expects to play every week. I know the latter point is nothing new, but it needs addressing as the decline is accelerating and his shouting is just looking hypocritical now.

Playing Meireles on the right. Moronic, bone-headed, unnecessary and no logic to it. Pretty clear to me he was scouted by Macia.

Buying Poulsen when any Juventus fan will tell you his legs went long ago.

Loaning Aquilani to Juventus while buying Poulsen from them - we are genuinely a laughing stock because of this. Aquilani starting for them and playing extremely well.

Loaning Insua out while he had a year on his contract, is aged 21 and who has serious potential. 21 is very young for an LB and his assists record last year was excellent, though he did make the odd defensive error. He's played in full internationals for Argentina. But you've loaned him, knowing full well we will now recoup no money for him. And replaced him with Paul fucking Konchesky? Any way you cut it, this is a fuckup. Even if Insua wasn't good enough (I think he was) that's money wasted by not selling him.

Picking the wantaway Masch over Lucas early in the season. Openly talking about Lucas being for sale. Terrible management of a player who gives everything and who has started to win the fans over after a torrid start.

Glen Johnson is a fine, international class attacking full back. He ain't going to be that if you don't let him outside his own half now, is he?

Repeated criticism of Daniel Agger who is, for me, our best CB. Just because your 'tactics' don't involve a cultured, passing CB Roy, doesn't mean you have to single him out for criticism and accuse him of 'miraculously recovering'from injuries in order to play for Denmark. Just look at his quotes over the summer. We don't have enough players with the right loyalty and attitude and you're making an example of one of those few. Brilliant.

The blaming of the players and absolving yourself of all personal responsibility after Northampton. Even worse, the cringingly embarrassing 'B-Team' comments. What did you hope to achieve by saying that? Lucas Leiva starts for Brazil. Daniel Agger captains Denmark. Babel was in a WC final squad this year. Even if they are fringe players for the first team (and they shouldn't all be), we do not have a B Team. Unbelievably poor man management, from a bloke who's fucking famed for being a man manager.

The incredible lack of ambition - as soon as he started he was banging on about people lowering their expectations. Really Roy? You'd just brought in Joe Cole and proclaimed him as the saviour of all that is good and holy. We don't expect you to win the title but lowering the bar you've set for yourself so quickly has a detrimental effect on the more ambitious players.

The abysmal shirking of responsibility in press conferences.

The embarrassing bleating on about 35 years of experience. If I were you Roy I wouldn't encourage people to look too closely at your CV.

The instant change from zonal marking to man marking. Is this because Sky don't like zonal? Roy, weren't you the man who famously and controversially switched Inter Milan from man to man to zonal marking? The players are used to zonal marking. Last season was a horror show in many respects but we still conceded the 3rd least amount of goals. Bizarre decision to make so swiftly.

Our best performances in recent years have seen the back 4 on the halfway line as we attack, and we've pressed teams to death. Now we not only don't do that, we let other teams to do it to us. Most recently Everton yesterday. Fine, you might have employed a reasonably successful system with moderate teams over the years, with the defence deep and hoofing aimlessly. But, again, you've changed something that our players were used to, and which has been successful for them. Why? Is it because a high line doesn't suit Carra? Well fucking stick Agger in then. Mind you, you've gone on record as saying you won't change your tactical beliefs. Thanks at least for that honesty, helps us make our mind up quicker.

It is painfully obvious that Fernando Torres is unhappy at leading the line on his own with the midfield 40 yards away, having to hope that a hoof falls for him. That's why he isn't playing well - so stop hinting to the press that he's off form. Even if he was in the form of his life, he'd still only get a chance a game unless you change the system to suit his (and other players) strengths.

Your criticism of the SOS protests was, being kind, ham fisted.

Yesterday's bizarre rudeness re: Denmark and Norway to a Norwegian journalist. WTF was that? Are you aware how many Scandinavians follow the team?

Rafael van der Vaart apparently 'didn't fit the profile of player we are looking for'. Really? I can believe that, but all it does is further convince me that you're trying to mould LFC into Fulham. Please don't. A player with skill and creativity is exactly what we need. Van der Vaart or, dare I say it, Aquilani fit the bill.

Liverpool managers do not cosy up to Alex Ferguson. How about making an effort to engage with the fans of your own club rather than improve relationships with other managers eh? For the record Carra was dead wrong on this recently too. We don't need to be nice to other teams FFS - quite the opposite. Rafa got under Ferguson's skin which had a hand in some excellent results against them recently. It also gets the fans behind you.

There are more mistakes and indiscretions than those I've listed off the top of my head, and it's an incredible list given the short time he's had at the club. Incredible.

So yeah, I'm a hypocrite. I fully agree with the tenet that we should support the manager. But I'm not convinced that he was brought in for the right reasons, and I'm also not sure that if he stays it will be for the right reasons...so I'm struggling to now.

Rafa out.