Author Topic: The Mystery of Chessboxing  (Read 9658 times)

Offline BazC

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The Mystery of Chessboxing
« on: July 12, 2009, 01:05:22 am »
A blend of the elegant and the brutal. One of severe mental calculation and physical expression of strength. A weird and mysterious amalgamation of precision and stratagem combined with fluid prowess of a dynamic attack.

I am, of course, describing… chessboxing.



Chessboxing is an unbelievable concept where competitors will engage in the mental challenge of strategy on the chess board, then trade the blows of pawns and rooks that dwell in imagination, for the physical blows on the canvas. It may have its roots in the cult following of a cartoon strip, but the duality of the mental and physical challenge isn’t a new one. In this guise, it just happens to be a test featuring two extreme examples of mental agility combined with raw physical expression.

This beauty and the beast juxtaposition has come to prominence in a more familiar sport recently; football.

The rise of the battling forwards is embodied by our very own Dirk Kuyt. The industrious, relentless and merciless energy that oozes from him isn’t going to make him the most fashionable of players, or indeed, the dreaded phrase ‘commercial appeal’ isn’t likely to apply, but he is a manager’s and fans' favourite.

But I digress, this isn’t about the merits of players like Kuyt- there are many articles and posts about just that, but rather, how the team as a whole has evolved its brand football, by embracing the physical and the elegant in equal measure. That’s why I’ve brought up chessboxing.

A chessboxing match consists of eleven rounds- five boxing rounds and six rounds of chess. The contest is decided if there’s a knockout in one of the boxing rounds, a checkmate in the chess round, retirements in either round or a referee’s decision in the boxing round. The key is absolutely to be good at both sides of the sport- it’s no use being good at either one or the other. The versatility is a fundamental requirement to succeed.

That requirement is what’s interesting nowadays amongst the top teams. In order to win major titles, there’s now a need to be good at not only the elegant passing football, but teams need to hold their own physically. We see teams with proficiency in one area and lacking in the other; Arsenal take the term 'beautiful game' to heart too much and perhaps, too literally. The lack of a physical presence in the heart of their football is noticeable.

I’ve picked out Kuyt, as many would, but it was a curveball.

Instead, step forward Messrs Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso.

This trio of players represent the finest example of a central midfield in the Premier League, and one of the finest in Europe. It’s because the balance between the sublime and the merciless is embodied not just within the trio, but within the individual players of the trio.

Xabi Alonso is undoubtedly one of the finest passers of the ball the game currently knows. The sublime touch and lightening quick turns lay the foundation for pinpoint accuracy and perfect weight of pass be it over 3 yards or 30. It would, thus, be easy to tick Xabi off as the ‘sublime’ player and place him neatly in a category of our elegant playmaking midfielder and move onto describing our next subject. Not so. What we see in Alonso is that footballing elegance that people would pay to watch. But there’s a grittier side, a physical side… he may be a master in his mind and pick out a pass before the ball is two passes away from him, but he can hold his own in the physical side of the game. The strong block tackling and the relentless 50-50 tackles which have seen him on both ends of long term injuries are every bit a part of Xabi’s game as his feathery touch and artistry on the ball.

Javier Mascherano. The tenacity, the hard hitting and no holds barred tackling and of course, the homing missile runs which snake to and fro before exploding into a sliding tackle. He’s the finest example of a sweeper; the player that protects the defence and makes space for his partner to conjure his magic. That’s not it though is it? Mascherano shows the majesty of Alonso on the ball when he receives it and is able to throw in the odd 20 yarder himself. Occasional lapses in concentration aside, Mascherano isn’t categorised into the ‘physical’ player just like Xabi Alonso isn’t just the ‘sublime’. Mascherano has the silver lining to his dark cloud of destructive power just as Alonso has the grittier side of launching himself into 50-50 challenges.

Both players are specialists, world class players in their chosen brand of fighting style. Crucially, however, both has a significant ability in the other’s speciality and this overlap allows for the perfect fit. Not only that, but by playing with each other, both will have learned more about each others game and used it to improve their own.

Then there’s Steven Gerrard. The true force of nature in world football. The fallacy of his “jack of all trades, master of none” was apparent long ago when you’d see him put in a lung bursting run and sliding tackle and throw himself into the physical side of football as well as he could pick a 50 yard through ball with perfect weight and precision, then go on and be on the end of such balls and stick them in the net. It’s no surprise that he’s the focal point of our triangle of midfield control.

Just as Xabi and Masch have an overlap, you can see that Gerrard has a significant overlap with his two mates, but this time, he’s as good at both sides of the game- the physical drive through midfield and the perfectly placed shot in the top corner is exactly a thing you’d expect Gerrard to come out with.

These three form a midfield triangle which offers us a substantial engine room to the side. They offer us a mental advantage; quick to pick a pass, quick to intercept a pass, quick to score the goal… they offer us that physical advantage; the strength, the tenacity and the drive. It’s an amazing basis from which to build a team around and almost as perfect as you are likely to make it, at least as perfect as you can make it without a bottomless pit of cash. Sure you could swap Xabi for Xavi or Iniesta, but I’d wonder how many tackles they’re going to throw themselves into let alone top the tackling stats. You might even want to swap Gerrard and get Kaka in, but again I’d wonder if the pretty boy would be capable of a darker side along with his sublime talent on the ball- as well as the bursts forward, would he burst toward his goal to stop an attack? Mascherano’s deftness on the ball when he’s dribbling away is hard to imagine along with another player who can home in on a world class attacker over 30 yards and stick an accurate tackle in and avert the danger.

This is why it’s quite crucial to keep these three together for next season. Recent speculation is annoying, but not as annoying as the job of having to replace the versatility and specialism within our midfield if they go.

Our midfield trio is a great example of the recent changes in English football, where the emergence of specialist central midfielders over the box to box powerhouses has dominated. They not only give you defensive protection but attacking prowess- a solid instigation and protection unit for the team's football.

Another example of versatility can be seen by casting our eyes at the back of the team. I won't go into massive detail here because it's largely been done beforehand (Yorkykopite's This Season's Defence- an Attack).

We can see that the lines between attack and defence become blurred. Pepe Reina, Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel represent a fine defensive triangle which directly protects the goal. Not only, however, are they defensively solid- but when they cast their eyes to the opposition goal, their's a whole new dimension to their football that becomes apparent. Reina's attacking ability comes from his quick thinking and passing accuracy, which have seen a number of assists these last couple of seasons. We all know about Daniel Agger's 30 yard thunderbolts, but the way he carries himself on the ball to get to those positions is every bit as elegant as the finest midfielders in football, and he'd need to be if he's going to ghost through a midfield. Martin Skrtel has shown that there's an attacker there somewhere- he's able to dribble his way through midfield and finds himself on the end of a lot of corners and freekicks... but he hasn't scored a goal yet. I'm sure that'll change next season.

All three of our defensive unit show the versatility of the three midfielders in front of them. Of course, there's room for improvements to be made, especially in the area the players aren't strongest in, but under Rafa, those improvements will occur.

So, the mystery of chessboxing… well, it isn’t really a mystery at all, but makes perfect sense. Not only does it make perfect sense, but it requires the expertise of two usually distinct tests of endurance- the extremely mental and the equally extremely physical. The winning competitor requires the intelligence and the physical power to come out on top. At the moment, we’ve got just that in our midfield and defence; the spine of our team is riddled with versatility and blurred lines between attack and defence, the elegant and the industrious, the mental and the physical. 

If we keep those players in that spine, I think we win the league next season. It’s a bit bold and a bit presumptuous, but then it's something I believe. It's not the type of 'belief' that's peddled out nowadays as the token show of arbitrary and meaningless faith... but actual belief in all it's sincerity.

Why? Well, we've got a spine of chessboxers in our team for a start.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 07:22:25 pm by BazC »
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 12:18:22 pm »
I think its an interesting read and i like the way you've not gone for the Beauty and the Beast approach which has been discussed over the years, for every Smicer and Luis Garcia we've had a Hamann and Kuyt, because as you rightly point out every footballer has both the yin and yang of skills and brute force. Well, even Carra carries the ball up the field occasionally..
But what your post made me realise is that we also have this team based on overlapping triangles, as you point out, the defence has Reina/Agger who are both capable of quickly creating attacking opportunities but we have Carra there too, as a bedrock., A triangle based on strength and flexibilty.

Similarly in midfield the Masch/Alonso/Gerrard triangle works in the same way, as does then the Kuyt/Torres/Gerrard one, each triangle overlapping.

Good thread mate, but in the premier league I love how Xabi has adapted to having less time on the ball than he would in Europe yet can still play chess like strategic moves.

Gerrard isn't the game player, the midfield general planning out the moves ahead, his strengths lie in the grabbing the game off the midfield generals and shoving it back down their tactical throats.. Xabi possibly is, but both need each other and I agree totally Baz that we need this spine to be kept together.
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 12:34:20 pm »
I think its an interesting read and i like the way you've not gone for the Beauty and the Beast approach which has been discussed over the years, for every Smicer and Luis Garcia we've had a Hamann and Kuyt, because as you rightly point out every footballer has both the yin and yang of skills and brute force. Well, even Carra carries the ball up the field occasionally..
But what your post made me realise is that we also have this team based on overlapping triangles, as you point out, the defence has Reina/Agger who are both capable of quickly creating attacking opportunities but we have Carra there too, as a bedrock., A triangle based on strength and flexibilty.

Similarly in midfield the Masch/Alonso/Gerrard triangle works in the same way, as does then the Kuyt/Torres/Gerrard one, each triangle overlapping.

Good thread mate, but in the premier league I love how Xabi has adapted to having less time on the ball than he would in Europe yet can still play chess like strategic moves.

Gerrard isn't the game player, the midfield general planning out the moves ahead, his strengths lie in the grabbing the game off the midfield generals and shoving it back down their tactical throats.. Xabi possibly is, but both need each other and I agree totally Baz that we need this spine to be kept together.

That's the beauty of it really. These players are specialists in certain areas- GK, CB, CM (defensive, playmaking, attacking) but they're so accomplished in the 'other' side. Mascherano, for his destruction has an angelic side. Xabi, for every footballing orchestra he conducts, he's got the phantom of the opera mode to flick into. Gerrard's... well he's Gerrard- love your description of it  ;D

And yeah, the way Xabi's adapted to play quickly has been a great development. But that's what you get when you're that young, have quality and find the need to adapt. He came here when he was 22 I think- he's had enough time to develop that grittier side to his football as well as adjusting to the time constraints. It's why I've got faith in Lucas to an extent- I think he'll learn, but perhaps only if he gets significant playing time like Alonso did (unlike Alonso though, Lucas hasn't shown he can completely take control of midfield yet- I was watching the Norwich game in Xabi's first season I think it was... or was it West Brom... anyway, he was in complete control of everything- and that was a regular thing back then as well. He's also now got 2 world class CMs in front of him in the team, unlike Xabi did when he came in so that can't help).

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:44:21 pm by hinesy »
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 12:46:39 pm »
One can only hope for Lucas Baz, we see glimmers of real quality, its his decision making that needs to be overhauled. When to foul when not to, when to pass when not to and so on.
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Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 01:20:50 pm »
One can only hope for Lucas Baz, we see glimmers of real quality, its his decision making that needs to be overhauled. When to foul when not to, when to pass when not to and so on.

I've got a lot of time for Lucas.  I think he'll come good in a rather big way next season.
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 02:21:16 pm »
As much as we need to keep the midfield triangle together for now.. Lucas will have a tremendous opportunity to stake his claim for a starting spot in the years to come, IF he blossom this upcoming season. It's maybe not a bold suggestion that either of Xabi/Mascher might move on, come next summer.
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 02:29:39 pm »
BazC - firstly, I gotta say what a well thought out and written piece mate, thanks for sharing it with us.

What it made me think about was the way that Rafa has found players that were potential 'chess-boxers' in Alonso and Mascherano - we can all see it now.  It outlines the qualities that he looks for in players, why attitude as much as ability is important to him.

The comparisons with Kaka et al made me feel lucky about the quality that we have. It also made me consider that the 'chess-boxer' theory is maybe only a Prem thing, and players with unbelievable qualities in one area but none in the other would not shine as much in the Prem as in Italy or Spain.

Ronaldo was a classic example - could be brilliant but also a lazy sulky fuck who was a negative influence on his team.

Hinesey - you mentioned the triangles of play - surely that has been the Liverpool way since Shanks - the one touch 5-a-sides in training etc. Shortly after joining us, Craig Johnstone once said in a TV interview, when asked about the secrets of Liverpool were "there is no secret, we just work at playing in triangles, keeping a safe distance apart and keeping the ball moving." I think we tried to keep this tradition until Houllier 'revamped' us with our counter attacking style, Rafa is now getting us back to our Liverpool way.

Chessboxing - that was an education mate!

Oh, and the only thing I didn't agree with:  Steven Gerrard - Master of all trades, jack of none!
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2009, 02:30:20 pm »
that as may be, any thoughts on Baz's points on chessboxing, does it apply to our team in the way Baz suggests or is he looking for something too deep to the pass and move traditions of old?
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Offline horne

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 02:49:13 pm »
i think he is spot on.
looking back to the 70's and 80's,we had players who could all tackle and put pressure on the oppo' to win the ball back.
With posession ,we  were capable of keeping hold of it with the pass and move.
None of them were a messi/ronaldo/ronaldhinio type of player with all the tricks but they didnt need to be.
It was all about if they havnt got the ball,they cant score....so go and get the ball and keep it
when we get the ball,keep it and wear the fuckers out.keep it moving and when they are too tired to defend,go and score.
simple but effective.
It needed patience both on and off the park ,but was worth waiting for.
Against the modern day stokes and hulls with the way they defend deep,they seem to be able to keep it going for the full 90 minutes,so its important to bombard them incessantly from the off.the clock moves quickly in them games and less and less chances are offered if there is no intensity to the attacks.once you get the first goal,rules change for them and they have to break up their defensive strategy.they come out to get a goal to even it up and get the vital point,and it should then create more scoring opportunities for us
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:58:43 pm by horne »
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 02:49:58 pm »
that as may be, any thoughts on Baz's points on chessboxing, does it apply to our team in the way Baz suggests or is he looking for something too deep to the pass and move traditions of old?

I do think it applies to our team mate, I think that it's what Rafa likes in his players.

Brian Clough once said that "footballers are simple creatures (or something like that) most footballers lose their passports." He was outlining the fact that you had to give simple instructions which the players could carry out to the best of their ability and without having to think too much. That was the nature of the game in those days.

Nowadays, to be the best, a player has to think more for himself, consider every move and every pass and the implications of it. Some players have to think 3 or 4 moves ahead, 3 or 4 runs ahead and consider the atttacking and defensive implications of their decision, much like a chess player.

In terms of the 'pass-n-move triangle' theory - it's still the way and we invented it. Barcelona were sublime last year with their one touch stuff, we can have that and more and have shown signs of it when we needed to.

Rafa is creating a new dimension of the triangle theory, where we can think 4 triangles ahead and consider the eventualities.
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 02:50:44 pm »
i think he is spot on.
looking back to the 70's and 80's,we had players who could all tackle and put pressure on the oppo' to win the ball back.
with posession ,we  were capable of keeping hold of it with the pass and move.
none of them were a messi/ronaldo/ronaldhinio type of player with all the tricks but they didnt need to be.
it was all about if they havnt got the ball,they cant score....so go and get the ball and keep it
when we get the ball,keep it and wear the fuckers out.keep it moving and when they are too tired to defend,go and score.
simple but effective.

Yep - the old way of 'let the ball do the work', wait til they are fucked then hit 'em.

Could we not be doing that already to a certain degree, given the amount of late goals we've scored?
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Offline horne

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 03:04:10 pm »
Yep - the old way of 'let the ball do the work', wait til they are fucked then hit 'em.

Could we not be doing that already to a certain degree, given the amount of late goals we've scored?

definately.i noticed upto when we went all psycho and started scoring loads of goals after the manc game,we tended to play a cagey first half and a more up tempo second half.it matches the above strategy.the problem was that we either didnt support the striker enough,couldnt score with a header when balls did come flying into the box,didnt get enough bodies in the box for full coverage ,or didnt pick up the second ball and shoot when balls where headed out.
not taking our chances also cost us too.we created loads in some games but didnt punish
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 03:13:51 pm »
BazC - firstly, I gotta say what a well thought out and written piece mate, thanks for sharing it with us.

What it made me think about was the way that Rafa has found players that were potential 'chess-boxers' in Alonso and Mascherano - we can all see it now.  It outlines the qualities that he looks for in players, why attitude as much as ability is important to him.

The comparisons with Kaka et al made me feel lucky about the quality that we have. It also made me consider that the 'chess-boxer' theory is maybe only a Prem thing, and players with unbelievable qualities in one area but none in the other would not shine as much in the Prem as in Italy or Spain.

Ronaldo was a classic example - could be brilliant but also a lazy sulky fuck who was a negative influence on his team.

Hinesey - you mentioned the triangles of play - surely that has been the Liverpool way since Shanks - the one touch 5-a-sides in training etc. Shortly after joining us, Craig Johnstone once said in a TV interview, when asked about the secrets of Liverpool were "there is no secret, we just work at playing in triangles, keeping a safe distance apart and keeping the ball moving." I think we tried to keep this tradition until Houllier 'revamped' us with our counter attacking style, Rafa is now getting us back to our Liverpool way.

Chessboxing - that was an education mate!

Oh, and the only thing I didn't agree with:  Steven Gerrard - Master of all trades, jack of none!

Cheers mate. As for Gerrard- I did say it was a fallacy that he was a jack of all trades and master of none  ;) I did like hinesy's description better though- how he just picks off the tactical players and rams the game down their throats.

that as may be, any thoughts on Baz's points on chessboxing, does it apply to our team in the way Baz suggests or is he looking for something too deep to the pass and move traditions of old?

I think the days of simple football are long, long gone. It's not enough to just try and play simple pass and move football these days- you need deep tactical insights. At least, that's what I see with these new managers who are really pushing hard with the physical side with technical class. Rafa did it, Mourinho did it, Guardiola's completely revamped Barca and turned them into a devastating team... it's not just passing and moving, but there's other areas which lend themselves to the strategic and mental side of the game.

A player like Kuyt, for example, wouldn't last half a season in simply a pass and move team in my opinion because he's not always that good at getting the ball under control and moving it on quickly.

Ferguson though, has just won a handful of titles with his Manc side and I think his is a throwback to the traditional, more simpler, view of football. Of letting the best players just play. I think Wenger also said this once- how he just lets his players play football... but look how well he's been doing lately.

I do think the game is more about strategy these days. The lack of first 11s- rather there seems to be a core group of more players who play depending on the opposition, rotation, zonal marking, pro zone, statistics... it's all a bit more advanced than the odd VHS of your next opponent.

It was Souness who once talked about Paisley once giving a tactical instruction to Sami Lee- I think it was a European Cup final, and Lee was told to man mark someone. Everyone was surprised as it wasn't something they knew Paisley to say! I think Souness said it was the first and last time he saw Paisley do that!

Pass and move, I think, is needed to give for a freer attacking style of football, but it's not a sufficient condition to winning football these days I don't think- you need more options and capabilities.
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Offline SuperSub77

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 03:34:46 pm »
definately.i noticed upto when we went all psycho and started scoring loads of goals after the manc game,we tended to play a cagey first half and a more up tempo second half.it matches the above strategy.the problem was that we either didnt support the striker enough,couldnt score with a header when balls did come flying into the box,didnt get enough bodies in the box for full coverage ,or didnt pick up the second ball and shoot when balls where headed out.
not taking our chances also cost us too.we created loads in some games but didnt punish

I think the 'last mad 20 minutes' is maybe a Spanish thing - I say this as I remember the great Spanish teams that dominated the European Cup at the end of the last century seemed to play like that - I remember the Valencia side in particular that were beaten by Madrid in the 2000 final - it only seemed like the last 20 minutes that they started to up the tempo and have a go at teams.
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 03:37:28 pm »
Cheers mate. As for Gerrard- I did say it was a fallacy that he was a jack of all trades and master of none  ;) I did like hinesy's description better though- how he just picks off the tactical players and rams the game down their throats.

Yeah - sorry mate - must be the blind spot in my left eye...:)
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 03:50:10 pm »
It was Souness who once talked about Paisley once giving a tactical instruction to Sami Lee- I think it was a European Cup final, and Lee was told to man mark someone. Everyone was surprised as it wasn't something they knew Paisley to say! I think Souness said it was the first and last time he saw Paisley do that!


I love the old stories. I wonder what he said to Howey Gayle in that Munich Semi Final? "Get the ball and run like fuck, then you can have a rest".

Pass and move, I think, is needed to give for a freer attacking style of football, but it's not a sufficient condition to winning football these days I don't think- you need more options and capabilities.

Agree, you do need multiple possibilities, but the best method is the triangle pass n move IMO.

For example : Granted, we've done OK with the odd long ball out from the back, but it's when we can catch teams unaware, it's a great option to have. But it's all about working the best position to score. Again, look at the Guardiola's side - they try their best not to hoof, even from the back, they pass pass pass, to a point where they have gone from defending an awkward situation to being at ease and in control.

I've seen us do this more lately - panic less and think more, replacing hoofball with simply sharp accurate passing. I like Danny Agger because he has that calm and intelligence, like Hansen did. He thinks about it. I actually liked some of Pique's performances last season for Barca, his passing out from defence was awesome at times.
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 07:08:27 pm »
Fantastic Article! I'd never have thought of that analogy, but it really is so apt.

It describes perfectly the reasons that Rafa seeks out the kind of players that he does sign for Liverpool - and why those found lacking in one area or the other are dispatched so quickly and ruthlessly.

Well, usually.......Best of luck, Jermaine. :wave
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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 08:48:14 pm »
Great stuff Baz mate - really enjoyed that. :)

Offline JonnyCigarettes®

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 09:35:33 pm »

I'd been working on a morris dancing/ seal clubbing analogy.

But your version was still quite interesting.
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Offline Degs

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 02:24:44 am »
Gotta get up and beeeee somebodyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline mercury

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 05:49:13 am »
Beauty + Beast = Perfect  ;D

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2009, 09:29:59 am »
Top article Baz, excellent stuff.

Had no idea that chess-boxing actually exists - crazy but certainly an intruiging idea. I would agree as well it's an almost perfect analogy for our football, and something that I really like about us. We may not be the most purely physical side, or the most purely skilful, but we are much more skilful than those sides who out-muscle us, and we out-muscle those (very few now) sides who out-skill us. This also gives us the capacity to out-think anyone we play, because inevitably there will be at least one aspect of our overall play that the opposition simply has no answer too. Man Utd last season was a case in point - we pretty much showed them how we were going to beat them in the Anfield game, yet they didn't really come close to having a proper answer.

Glen Johnson actually quite epitomises this, now that I think about it. I don't think anyone would argue that the man has plenty of skill, in fact it's hard to think of a more skilful English defender...in recent times. Greame le Saux, maybe? Then physically - he's a monster too. Great pace, great strength and tall with it - if Rafa can iron out his lapses and get his defending spot on the fee could end up looking almost cheap.

Watching Barca last season really hit this home for me...the more I watched them, the less impressed I actually got. They are an amazing side, but just like most other teams they have clear and obvious weaknesses and blind-spots that can quite obviously be exploited. Chelsea nearly managed it, to the sounds of 'tactical genius'...when it wasn't. Parking the bus, as they did in both legs, never was and never will be great tactics...for me it's a coward's way out and I was quite surprised Chelsea took it. I can't imagine Rafa ever having us play against 10 men the way Chelsea did at home to Barca. Nope. They struggle to get the ball forward quickly, and they have no answer whatsoever if someone can disrupt their passing play properly, as the USA actually showed pretty well against Spain, but with far inferior players, and as we showed emphatically a couple of years ago by beating them in Camp Nou.

For me, that's a great place to be. A place I've never been as a Liverpool fan, where I can look at what is undoubtedly the best team on the planet at the moment and think 'meh...we'd have 'em, no worries'. That's a place that was almost inconceivable when Rafa took over.

I can't wait for the season to start.
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Offline mercury

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 10:51:48 am »
HBHR - Whilst I get your gist, we should have no qualms parking the bus, if the occasion calls for it.  It's dangerous to think there is a "below-us" tactic - except for unsportsmanship such as aiming to hurt the opponents.  This is the thing that Gooners complain when they are not good enough to rise on the occasion, cry-babies they are.

Technique, physical strength, mentality, brains - and for some, also beauty.  Archieving them is equivalent to perfection in sports, if it can ever be achieved at all! 

Offline kinkytones

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2009, 11:03:12 am »
Gotta get up and beeeee somebodyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The game of chess is like a swordfight You must think first before you move

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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 11:10:15 am »
HBHR - Whilst I get your gist, we should have no qualms parking the bus, if the occasion calls for it.  It's dangerous to think there is a "below-us" tactic - except for unsportsmanship such as aiming to hurt the opponents.  This is the thing that Gooners complain when they are not good enough to rise on the occasion, cry-babies they are.

Technique, physical strength, mentality, brains - and for some, also beauty.  Archieving them is equivalent to perfection in sports, if it can ever be achieved at all! 

Disagree. A team of our stature and ability should never be reduced to actually aiming for nothing beyond stopping the opposition scoring. Don't get me wrong - I've no problems with a battling defensive display. Far from it. Like against Liege last season, sometimes a team just plays better or gets on top of you, so what choice do you have? If you can't go backs to the wall in those situations then you're in trouble...but to actually set out deliberately with that as your sole and only aim?

No problem with the minnows doing it, but I'd hate to see us doing it - certainly considering how good we actually are now - and as Rafa's said, I can't honestly ever remember setting out like that, with no ambition whatsoever. There's always been some kind of coherent plan to actually win the game, not just hold out for penalties or whatever...or so it's seemed to me, regardless of what others may say/think.

EDIT:

I also don't mean playing defenisvely, just to clear that. No problem with sitting deep and playing on the counter, no problem playing long ball - just got a problem with a team who have the players, ability and money of Chelsea showing such a woeful lack of ambition. There should at least be some kind of plan to exploit set-pieces or long-balls or something, unless it really is David Vs Goliath.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 11:17:30 am by hesbighesred »
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 12:24:43 pm »
Nice one Seb.

You bringing up Glen Johnson is a good case in point- I was going to talk about it but I just haven't seen enough of him to talk about him. What I have seen though, is the odd game here and there. He seems very capable in attack, so much so, that he could realistically be an option for our right wing. You point out his skill and I agree. The pinpoint crosses and decent shot he has on him is then coupled with that athleticism and strength he has.

We all pined for Dani Alves, but the more I saw him last season, the more I thought he wasn't what we needed- he's like a little fly that players just want to swat away and he just doesn't have the strength. Perhaps more skillful than Johnson, but Johnson's skillful enough but is also a lot stronger. Maybe that's the reason why we paid so much for him- he's a very promising player.

I like that from Rafa, and have to admit, only really started understanding why players with versatility are required. It's not necessarily to play them in different positions in every game- but the fact that they have the ability to play in other positions gives them a better overall game. That's what we want- top footballers. Of course, when there's a need, then that versatile player can also step in in other areas when needed. Mascherano at fullback was amazing- hell, I thought he was better than our usual fullback! Aurelio at CM did the best impression of Xabi Alonso I've seen from our players when Xabi's been out (although I remember that he didn't keep it up all game- perhaps the physical requirements got the better of him by the end).

As for Chelsea and Barca. I have to admit, I've got respect for those 2 teams. Purely because they're the 2 teams I consider to have that balance in the mental and physical sides. Barca may be less physical than even us and Chelsea (who, as you point out, are less physical than the most physical sides), but they still have the mindset to be physical and win the ball back by using their speed and strength. That's what impressed me most about them last season, because it was purely Guardiola (who you can't help but admire after those achievements) who did it- the stock of players was the same as the season before when they were very poor. It's no surprise that they want a player like Mascherano now... I just wish they'd piss off and go for another example of a well rounded specialist midfielder.

In Chelsea's case, I see them as a very similar team to us, especially when they were under Hiddink. I hated watching them against Barca, but the thing is, they played it how they did in order to stop Barca playing their passing game. If they'd allowed them to get on the ball, they'd have been ripped apart. I wouldn't say it was completely without ambition, because Chelsea created enough chances to win 2 games in that 2nd leg. They missed a lot of one on ones... Dropba and Anelka spring to mind- Dropba had a couple of misses even in the away leg.

Chelsea came close to beating Barca, but the Mancs clearly had no chance. I thought that fact really gave an insight about the approaches that Chelsea and Man U have to the game, and also the type of football the PL rewards seeing as the Mancs have just won their 3rd title in a row. Chelsea took the tactical view, and it just so happened that the best way to beat them wasn't to pit the attacking games against each other, but the defensive ones- Chelsea just gummed up the whole pitch with 10 behind the ball, and looked to counter with the physical approach of Dropba. The Mancs, easily one of the best attacking sides in Europe, took the other approach and fell way, way short. They were so bad you didn't even see the Mancs crying or upset at the end- they were just bewildered and didn't know what the hell had happened.

If we played Barca, I reckon we'd have played the counter attacking game, but with our CM of Masch and Xabi, I think we'd have been able to notch up our attacking ambition a bit more- those 2 can win back the ball and turn it over extremely quickly. Pepe does the same...and with players like Torres and Gerrard to pick out on the other end- well no surprise that we're the best counter attacking team around I think. And I think that's because we've played that way under Rafa most of the time and our main players know the game inside out.



P.S- I wondered how long it'd take for the Wu Tang references. They fit in very well with the idea of this thread actually; grimy lyrics and beats that flow with poetic elegance.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 12:31:40 pm by BazC »
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 01:05:51 pm »
Barca and Chelsea - absolutely I respect them both, agree with a lot of what you say there. Also regarding Barca's physicality...maybe less so than Chelsea, but they might actually be more physical than us. People get fooled by the style of play but in one way or another Eto'o, Henry, Iniesta, Toure and the whole back four are extremely impressive physically, and of those I've mentioned only Henry doesn't have exceptional strength too. No, I think their weakness is very much tactical and mental - I remember against Chelsea only Alves seemed willing to knock it direct from time to time, and did a lot of damage when he did so as that exploits the very few times Chelsea ventured vaguely forward - but on the whole they simply won't do it, like Spain didn't against USA from what I saw. Always with the patient build up.

I also don't think we'd play counter attack - we'd play them like we did two seasons ago, that's still the way to get at them but very few have the balls and players to do so.

Chelsea only stopped their passing in the final third. We shut there passing off at source by pressing high onto the back 4 and pressing all over the midfield area, with a high-line to compress space. Now that high line could leave you hugely vulnerable to Barca's pace, but that's my point about Barca's tactical/mental weakness - they won't make the pitch bigger and force a defensive line deeper by going for longer passes (like we do all the time against Arsenal, for example, and to great effect). I was expecting something more like that from Chelsea, certainly in the home leg, but they simply didn't do it - not even when Barca were down to 10 men. Poor stuff from Hiddink, in my view - and unlike us at Camp Nou, they didn't deserve to win the first leg either. Barca had more than enough clear chances to win that match, which would have ended the tie there and then. We came back from 1-0 down - that's the difference and in my view it's a huge one.

Funnily enough I disagree about the Mancs too. I was amazed at fatface's initial tactics - he actually went for it, pressing them high up the pitch, trying to cut off the passing at source, and for 10 minutes they were rampant and barca simply clueless. The two problems for them were Ronaldo's determination to try and do everything himself (I was loving his 'superb start', from the first shot it was obvious he was in selfish, petulant mode and for me undermined his team hugely. You do not give a team like Barca easy outs by wasting good possession with stupid shots from distance) and the Mancs complete lack of anyone with physicality and tackling ability in midfield. Fletcher would have helped, but I don't think he'd have been much better than Anderson. His technique is too poor and I think they'd have bypassed him as they did Anderson. That simply would not happen with Mash and Alonso, or even Lucas - they would not get that space and time in midfield, and neither would their defence have breathing space.

Key for me was that when the mancs went 1-0 down it seemed to me their tactics just went out of the window. They sat back, couldn't press, let themselves be pressed instead, couldn't get the ball in midfield and all compounded by absurd tactical switches from Ferguson. Honestly, I couldn't believe it. He's been so negative in Europe for the last couple of seasons, I was absolutely delighted that he chose to abandon that against Barca, of all teams.

I think that match was one that really showed my just how good a tactician Rafa really is. I know there team of 2 years ago was much weaker than now but the attacking approach was still very much the same sort of thing. Where other managers see strength and danger Rafa sees weakness - and can exploit it even with players like Bellamy, Riise and others who, though perfectly respecatable, were always ultimately limited at the very top level.

Can you imagine how Hiddink or Fungus would have fared with those players against that Barca? Not well, I think, and I also don't think for a second they'd have been positive enough in tactical approach to come back from 1-0 down.

----

As for Johnson and versatility - a brief point too is that he can, indeed started as a CB. I'm quite excited about what Rafa can do with Johnson because I just have this little inkling he might become something a bit like our Puyol in the future. If we can get his positioning bang on, there's another genuine, ball playing, attacking CB we could use in a few year's time...(pint being that attacking FBs are probably easier to find than proper attacking CBs). I also quite like the idea of him at RW - proper natural width on that side but one who can press a bit like Kuyt does. Pennant with physique if you like...by no means a bad option to have if we want to start pumping crosses in.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 01:07:23 pm »
P.S:

I love the idea of us being Ghostdogg, basically. Word 8)
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Offline BazC

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2009, 02:44:50 pm »
It's a good point to bring up all this actually... I think the way Rafa dissects a team to expose it's vulnerabilities then use precise passing, speed and physicality to target the exposed vulnerabilities is exactly what makes us a dangerous team. The way we pisked off Real Madrid was amazing- it's easily the greatest Liverpool performance I've ever seen I think. People dismissed the match at the time (well, people outside the Liverpool fanbase) because "Real Madrid are nothing compared to previous seasons"- fact is though, they'd just won the league 2 seasons in a row, and were keeping close to Barca- a side widely regarded as one of the best ever.

I reckon we'd have done it to Barca as well... but at the Nou Camp, as at the Bernabeu, it would have been a case of getting some kind of result to take it to Anfield. Then we just hit them with everything and watch them as they're left dumbfounded.

Rafa's definitely shown his tactical genius as you say... we've beaten every top team in Europe in his time (except Bayern Munich I think).

This thing with Xabi seems to have blown up today and I think Masch might be next. Seeing as they're 2 of the main players I've picked out, we'll have a big job replacing one of them let alone two. Hopefully we can replace them with specialist midfielders who have considerable ability in their non-specialist areas just like Xabi and Masch do. What we might want to do, however, is improve the attacking option from CM if we get a new one in. It's why I've been suggesting Sneijder a lot- he's no Xabi in defence, but he could keep the football circulating around attack well, he's got a shot on him, takes a decent freekick and has the ability to pick out long range passes too. If we kept Mascherano, I could see a 4-1-4-1, with Sneijder making up a triangle with Torres and Gerrard, as well as that triangle with Mascherano, Gerrard and Sneijder.

It's a lot more attacking than we have it now, and it would require Masch to stay, which is up in the air, but it could work well. In theory. If Mascherano goes, then... well, Rafa's going to have a headache. He might have £60m to spend to replace them, but it'll definitely be a hard job to replace those two, even if he had £120m.



Oh, and Ghostdogg?!  :o  ;D
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 03:16:02 pm »
I must say, if Xabi did go (and I honestly still don't think he will) then I'd rather we kept to the same sort of system, and sign an allround type. In fact what I'd really like in that scenario is for Lucas to step up and make the spot his own because (and I know I'm in the minority here, which is more than fair enough) I honestly think that he (fully confident, with the team fully integrated into his style) could make us fractionally more effective than we are even with Alonso. Not that I'd want to risk that for a moment. Cambassio would be a decent shout I reckon...nowhere near as creative, but then more chance of him working alongside Lucas and Gerrard as well as Mash. I'd personally love Sneijder for that LW slot - thought he was most impressive there for the Dutch.

Still, I get what you're saying, and it could work very well - if any player is capable of a solo anchoring job it's our masher.

As for high water marks - as you might have guessed that Barca match remains peerless for me, especially to have come from 1-0 down. I don't think anyone expected that except perhaps Rafa and one or two of the players, but since then we've feared no team. The manc games this season where absolutely huge as well, because they were the equivalent of that Barca result but in the league.
Oh, and Ghostdogg?!  :o  ;D
For some reason when you said 'Wu Tang' my brain went 'Ghostdogg'. I realise now that they are not actually the same thing at all - though didn't they do the soundtrack? I think the comparison works with them too...
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Offline b_joseph

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2009, 03:26:29 pm »
Haha..great read.

Its a nice way to sum up life really. Hard all the time and you'll wear yourself out...elegant too much and you'll be too soft for the battles of everyday life.

I'll throw a sporting name into the hat. Tiger Woods...
Nobody in sports combines the physical element (boxing) with the mental/elegant side ( chess ) as much as he does. You watch him aggressively attack a par 5, no mercy on the course in his pursuit of destroying everything in his path.
Then watch him around the greens or on the green. That aggression has gone and suddenly you see a player conpletely surrounded by peace and his own thoughts.

Offline Degs

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2009, 11:57:26 pm »
.For some reason when you said 'Wu Tang' my brain went 'Ghostdogg'. I realise now that they are not actually the same thing at all - though didn't they do the soundtrack? I think the comparison works with them too...
Probably because the Rza did the soundtrack to Ghost Dog (as well as contributing the sound effects for Kill Bill 1 and 2) obviously anyone who's listened to a Wu-Tang album knows Rza is obsessed with Samurai and Kung Fu.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 01:02:11 am »
Probably because the Rza did the soundtrack to Ghost Dog (as well as contributing the sound effects for Kill Bill 1 and 2) obviously anyone who's listened to a Wu-Tang album knows Rza is obsessed with Samurai and Kung Fu.
Ahhh...it was just Rza was it? He did the theme tune for 'Afro Samurai' as well, which is belting anime (and a belting tune too).
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Offline mercury

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 05:41:08 am »
Sorry, lost it on Wu Tang & Ghost Dog.  Who / What are they?

And yes, the best solution for the "Xabi hole" is for Lucas to step up.  Time for him too, whether Xabi stay or out.


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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 10:21:29 am »
lets leave the hip hop to the music board unless we can wangle in a reference to the importance of Ghost Dog in a 3-5-2 formation with Ol dirty bastard in goal.
Yep.

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2009, 03:26:27 pm »
Chelsea only stopped their passing in the final third. We shut there passing off at source by pressing high onto the back 4 and pressing all over the midfield area, with a high-line to compress space. Now that high line could leave you hugely vulnerable to Barca's pace, but that's my point about Barca's tactical/mental weakness - they won't make the pitch bigger and force a defensive line deeper by going for longer passes (like we do all the time against Arsenal, for example, and to great effect). I was expecting something more like that from Chelsea, certainly in the home leg, but they simply didn't do it - not even when Barca were down to 10 men. Poor stuff from Hiddink, in my view - and unlike us at Camp Nou, they didn't deserve to win the first leg either. Barca had more than enough clear chances to win that match, which would have ended the tie there and then. We came back from 1-0 down - that's the difference and in my view it's a huge one.
Completely agree.

I remember at the time there were a lot of posters saying how well they thought Chelsea played and complementing their tactics.  I thought almost the complete opposite and for many of the reasons you have listed above. 

If you simply pack your defence then, in my view, that is not outstanding tactics.  Barcelona's centrebacks and deep lying playmakers had the ball unopposed for the two legs.  The Chelsea players and especially midfielders were made to do unnecessary running and, imo, this eventually contributed to them going out (remember Essien's miskick which gave Messi possession, would a fresher Essien have miskicked?).

Similarly their tactics against us were not great, man marking Gerrard is not the tactical move of a genius (Gary Megson had the same idea), although they did play well collectively.  I thought their tactics were pretty primitive in both ties.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Mystery of Chessboxing
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2009, 05:34:30 pm »
That's my pet theory as to why Hiddink's a master at international level, and was great for Chelsea, but who's actual club record is distincly underwhelming for someone almost universally hailed as a 'genius'.

He's a great motivator.
He's great with people, and great with big egos.
He has clear, simple, 'level 3ish' ideas on teamwork, pressing from the front, certain styles of football etc
He's very good at implementing basic tactical ideas which work very well (IE 10 behind the ball - man mark him - attack that flank etc)

But he's not actually that subtle, and I'm not sure he understands the nuances of the game on either that deep intellectual (Rafa) or instinctive (Fungus, Shankly) level that still allows him to change and adapt over time.

After all, he had that CL tie absolutely won after the first leg - but what answers did he have in the second? None really. There was no tactical switch that really let them in, just Anelka finally knuckling down (to his great credit) in an unfamiliar role, a magnificent bit of athleticism from Drogba and a mistake from ourselves. They were beaten before that slightly freakish goal, which killed us mentally and led to us switching off completely - but for 45 minutes we made a 2-0 lead look like a 2-0 head start. Can't remember anything like that happen the other way around - even when we have met our tactical match (like the Liege game) it doesn't lead to us falling apart.
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