Topic: Man Utd 1 Liverpool 0 post game

[OohCampione]

That makes no sense. A circular ball has no "head on" or "side". Neither was tackling the other, they were both going for a loose ball. Therefore neither was coming in from the "side" at all (though it ended up being Gerrard who did, as he was there a fraction later).

How does it make no sense?

Using a clock as an analogy, The ball was played from 6 o'clock, Gerrard came from 12 o'clock, Carrick from 9. The contact happened in the centre of the clock. therfore, gerrard was head on and Carrick come from the side.

[stockdam]

That's a disgrace.

Yes it's just mindless and has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting a football team.

[hesbighesred]

You like quoting the law, so let me quote it for you. 

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the
front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with EXCESSIVE force
and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play."

Let's look at definitions:

“Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or
consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution.
• No further disciplinary sanction is needed if a foul is judged to be careless

“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the
danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
• A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned

“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary
use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.
• A player who uses excessive force must be sent off

So as you can see the intent does matter.

I stand completely corrected, and I'll stop going on about it, thanks for that Beninger. I was obviously sure they'd specified two footed challenges, and indeed challenges from behind but there it is, all in one law, all in neat black and white!

Ditto to you Campione - thanks for setting me straight

[LFC-Dan]

Gotta say that atmosphere in the ground from our support today was first class, outsang those twats throughout the whole game although that isnt a hard thing to do.  Just a damn shame that once again a game against that shower has to be settled by their 12th man on the pitch. 

If Torres had been fouled at the Stretford End in the first minute, would Webb have given the penalty?  You can bet your life on the answer being no there. 

We were robbed today, played as well as we could of done given the biased circumstances, hopefully this is the turning point with Kenny in charge and we can start getting the rewards we deserve now.

[audioedge]

That makes no sense. A circular ball has no "head on" or "side". Neither was tackling the other, they were both going for a loose ball. Therefore neither was coming in from the "side" at all (though it ended up being Gerrard who did, as he was there a fraction later).

surely the direction the ball is travelling in dictates who is head on and who is from the side? lol

[stockdam]

Has anyone got a replay of the Rafael tackle against Meireles where Meireles pulled out?

It was two footed and he was airborne. It was head on and was definitely much worse than Gerrard's tackle.

Send it to Webb and ask him why he didn't see it.

[OohCampione]

I stand completely corrected, and I'll stop going on about it, thanks for that Beninger. I was obviously sure they'd specified two footed challenges, and indeed challenges from behind but there it is, all in one law, all in neat black and white!

Ditto to you Campione - thanks for setting me straight

Jesus, we get rid of the cancers, Kenny comes back and we're all being civil, if somewhat sarcastic. Meh!

[hesbighesred]

I agree, I love wingers but they've let us down for so long and they are hard to find. I'd just settle for quality footballers out there mate.
Not Diouf, Heskey, Kuyt, Smicer......A decade of failure.

That's astoundingly harsh on Kuyt. Rate him or not, think we can do miles better or not, he's been far, far more effective in his version of a wide role for us than any of the other three - none of whom ever regularly got around 10 goals and 10 assists per season from out wide (or to make it fair about 1 direct contribution to a goal every 3 games or so).

[rafared83]

They are a fucking disgrace. No other club would get away with that.

That takes the piss!

[RedRabbit]

How does it make no sense?

Using a clock as an analogy, The ball was played from 6 o'clock, Gerrard came from 12 o'clock, Carrick from 9. The contact happened in the centre of the clock. therfore, gerrard was head on and Carrick come from the side.

A circle doesn't have sides. If the ball is with a player then yes it can have a well defined side, i.e. the sides of the player. But, if it is a free standing object then it doesn't have a head. Both players would presume, rightly, that they are coming "head on" to the ball. It's like the question: Where is the top of the world? A: There isn't one.

[Beninger]

I stand completely corrected, and I'll stop going on about it, thanks for that Beninger. I was obviously sure they'd specified two footed challenges, and indeed challenges from behind but there it is, all in one law, all in neat black and white!

Ditto to you Campione - thanks for setting me straight

In the end, the interpretation is up to the referee in charge.  He felt, one way or another, it was excessive.  I just can't see it that way.  But, Stevie shouldn't have given him the chance to completely fucking ruin the game. 

[smig]

That's a disgrace.

Embarrasing. The bill will be sent to us as well. Morons.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

I always thought the title was decided over 38 games played home and away.

It is ... That is why the Mancs won't win it this season ...

[hesbighesred]

Jesus, we get rid of the cancers, Kenny comes back and we're all being civil, if somewhat sarcastic. Meh!

Wasn't meant sarcastically in the slightest - as Beninger pointed out if I think I'm right like that it's because I think I'm sure about it and hence I'll bang on about my 'evidence' which in this case turned out to be completely fictional - as does, inevitably, sometimes happen.

As a massive pedant myself, I'd much rather be proved wrong and shown the proof than carry on talking shite, especially that I'm not shy of going 'no, you are wrong and I am right, factamundo'. Well, I am shy of saying it like that because I'd sound like an utter fucking bell and have to punch myself in the face, but you get what I mean, it's genuinely appreciated, no sarcasm about it.

So nerrrr.

[Mackeroo]

I'd rather not indulge in conspiracys here but If it's a red, it's a red and you give it because you KNOW it is or you don't give it because it isn't. What it looked like to me today was that Webb shooed everyone away and walked backward, buying time until the replay was shown. Then when he heard the words "give it" come through on his ear-piece, he gave it. Think about it. Look at it again if you have it sky+'d. There's aeon's in between the offence and the brandishing of the card. It reminded me of the Zidane incident in '06. 4th official intervention. The red came out during the public replay too.

Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

Mate I'm not suggesting a conspiracy at all. I'm merely saying that I don't think Webb saw the incident therefore if he isn't sure what happened, how can he give a red? I stand to be corrected but the assistant referee didn't consult with him and advise on the situation.

I agree that it took ages for him to flash the card. My feeling was that he was influenced by Carrick rolling around on the ground. Your suggestion that the 4th official may have had a word in his ear having seen the replay is just as valid. But that begs the question, is that allowed? Either we use video technology or we don't.

[redmark]

How does it make no sense?

Using a clock as an analogy, The ball was played from 6 o'clock, Gerrard came from 12 o'clock, Carrick from 9. The contact happened in the centre of the clock. therfore, gerrard was head on and Carrick come from the side.

Ok, just watched it yet again. Ball comes in from nearer 5 o'clock, Carrick is between 9/10 o'clock (and importantly, closer to the ball) and Gerrard from between 12 and 1 o'clock. Conclusion? It's about time he stopped doing it.

[hesbighesred]

Ok, just watched it yet again. Ball comes in from nearer 5 o'clock, Carrick is between 9/10 o'clock (and importantly, closer to the ball) and Gerrard from between 12 and 1 o'clock. Conclusion? It's about time he stopped doing it.

Hahaha, excellent, I see what you did there!

[OohCampione]

A circle doesn't have sides. If the ball is with a player then yes it can have a well defined side, i.e. the sides of the player. But, if it is a free standing object then it doesn't have a head. Both players would presume, rightly, that they are coming "head on" to the ball. It's like the question: Where is the top of the world? A: There isn't one.

The direction the ball is travelling dictates whether a player is coming head on to it.

[Liver Bird]

toilets wrecked? who gives a shit

[OohCampione]

Ok, just watched it yet again. Ball comes in from nearer 5 o'clock, Carrick is between 9/10 o'clock (and importantly, closer to the ball) and Gerrard from between 12 and 1 o'clock. Conclusion? It's about time he stopped doing it.

[Black Bull Nova]

As regards wingers, I would just love to see Kelly and Johnson operating together on the right, just once, just to see whether it makes as much sense as my instincts say it does.

[harleydanger]

A circle doesn't have sides. If the ball is with a player then yes it can have a well defined side, i.e. the sides of the player. But, if it is a free standing object then it doesn't have a head. Both players would presume, rightly, that they are coming "head on" to the ball. It's like the question: Where is the top of the world? A: There isn't one.

Surely on the wind up?

[OohCampione]

Wasn't meant sarcastically in the slightest - as Beninger pointed out if I think I'm right like that it's because I think I'm sure about it and hence I'll bang on about my 'evidence' which in this case turned out to be completely fictional - as does, inevitably, sometimes happen.

As a massive pedant myself, I'd much rather be proved wrong and shown the proof than carry on talking shite, especially that I'm not shy of going 'no, you are wrong and I am right, factamundo'. Well, I am shy of saying it like that because I'd sound like an utter fucking bell and have to punch myself in the face, but you get what I mean, it's genuinely appreciated, no sarcasm about it.

So nerrrr.

I'll let yer off.

Only cos Kenny's back mind

[jaffod]

It is ... That is why the Mancs won't win it this season ...

Go and look at the league table mate and give your head a wobble.

[hesbighesred]

In the end, the interpretation is up to the referee in charge.  He felt, one way or another, it was excessive.  I just can't see it that way.  But, Stevie shouldn't have given him the chance to completely fucking ruin the game. 

No fair point - and completely agree on the Gerrard point too - my whole argument was based on me thinking exactly that there WASN'T room for interpretation - I thought that, like with deliberate goal stopping hand-ball or a professional foul (well, to a large extent) - that the debate had been deliberately taken out of it, IE that two footed challenges are a red card full stop. I didn't realise there was still so much room for interpretation in it.

I guess, just to play devils advocate for a minute, that the extra foot is something that will automatically make a ref think 'excessive' - there's no need I can see for any player to ever have to go in with both feet more or less extended. I've got little experience of football, but, well you know, played a fair bit in school and on the park etc etc, and I used to love making sliding challenges - I can't remember ever having gone in two footed or felt any need to go in two footed whatsoever, indeed if anything you lose a lot of control and, more importantly, the ability to get up quickly having regained the ball (Mash, for example, is as good as I've ever seen at winning the ball off a sliding tackle and getting up quickly to actually do something with it) - and I struggle to remember him ever going in two footed, where Gerrard makes a real habit of it.

I think we can all agree that, in an ideal world, it's something he'd cut out of his game completely. It does strike me as totally needless. Plus Webb is absolutely a shithouse, just in case anyone thought I was suggesting differently.

[iAnfieldRoad]

I thought our fans were magnificent today but i heard there was 15 arrests was that all ours or mancs also.Did our fans get to the game ok or was there trouble pre match.Sorry to talk about this but when we play the mancs i worry about what the travelling fans have to put up with over there.Webb is a c*nt aswell as being the worst ref in britain

[jDJ]

I stand completely corrected, and I'll stop going on about it, thanks for that Beninger. I was obviously sure they'd specified two footed challenges, and indeed challenges from behind but there it is, all in one law, all in neat black and white!

Ditto to you Campione - thanks for setting me straight

There's actually very little in the actual "laws of the game" - so much is left to the referees inter[retation.  However, there are directives from UEFA, FIFA and national governing bodies like the FA.  There aren't changes to the actual laws of the game but they are instruction to the referees on how to interpret the laws.  The offside rule hasn't changed at all to my knowledge.  The line about "not interfering with play" has existed for years and years, listening to the likes of Andy Gray you'd think Keith Hackett personally installed that law when he came to his post.

My understanding is our referees have been told to interpret excessive force as you say - a two footed challenge off the ground is always a red card now and a referee would be criticised and possibly demoted if they don't give one.

[hesbighesred]

I'll let yer off.

Only cos Kenny's back mind

Ooooh, thank you so much for your generosity and mercy oh lord Ooh of Campione. I shall forever be enriched by the glowing wonder of your beneficience and wisdom.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

Go and look at the league table mate and give your head a wobble.

League table means nothing at this time of the year ...

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2008-2009/table/2009-01-11

[Mackeroo]

I thought our fans were magnificent today but i heard there was 15 arrests was that all ours or mancs also.Did our fans get to the game ok or was there trouble pre match.Sorry to talk about this but when we play the mancs i worry about what the travelling fans have to put up with over there.Webb is a c*nt aswell as being the worst ref in britain

I believe it was a mixture of both. It was reported on SSN earlier that it was a representation from them and us, both for public order offences and for criminal damage.

[hesbighesred]

There's actually very little in the actual "laws of the game" - so much is left to the referees inter[retation.  However, there are directives from UEFA, FIFA and national governing bodies like the FA.  There aren't changes to the actual laws of the game but they are instruction to the referees on how to interpret the laws.  The offside rule hasn't changed at all to my knowledge.  The line about "not interfering with play" has existed for years and years, listening to the likes of Martin Tyler's Monkey you'd think Keith Hackett personally installed that law when he came to his post.

My understanding is our referees have been told to interpret excessive force as you say - a two footed challenge off the ground is always a red card now and a referee would be criticised and possibly demoted if they don't give one.

OOOoooooh, this is interesting. Could I have been correct after all? Will my detractors show the same generosity in (possible) defeat as I did to them when it seemed I was wrong?

Stay tuned for another exiting episode of RAWK...

dum..dum..dumdum...dumdumdumdum...

[John C]

toilets wrecked? who gives a shit

I do actually, those dickheads represent my city.

[jaffod]

League table means nothing at this time of the year ...

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2008-2009/table/2009-01-11

Oooh goody, does that mean we can still win it?

[Trada]

Just loved King Kenny in the after match when he said he thought Ferguson would come in first to warm them up before he came in.

It's great to hear these type of things again after 6 months of Hodgson.

[jordo08]

I do actually, those dickheads represent my city.

very well said

[John C]

dum..dum..dumdum...dumdumdumdum...

Do they sell good glue in Brixton mate.

[El Campeador]

I stand completely corrected, and I'll stop going on about it, thanks for that Beninger. I was obviously sure they'd specified two footed challenges, and indeed challenges from behind but there it is, all in one law, all in neat black and white!

Ditto to you Campione - thanks for setting me straight

You know what.

You really are class personified.

[woof]

Have we given away more penalties than any other team?

[Paragon]

Well then...

Arriving at Oxford Road station this morning was pretty intense. Full of police looking to keep the two sets of fans separated. You could cut the tension with a knife. Our fans were fantastic though, singing and chanting on a constant basis; especially once we got onto the train to the stadium, doing the Torres bounce en masse really seemed to intimidate the odd manc that had been caught up in the middle of it all. 

As for the match, the penalty decision was (as Kenny said on BBC Radio Five Live after the game) a joke! It was horrible to concede a penalty in the first minute anyway but to do so in an unjust manner was a real kick in the teeth. For a split second I thought Pepe Reina had saved it too, but it really seemed to demoralise our fans throughout the early stages of the game. I don't think there can be too many complaints about Gerrard's sending off, but the game was more or less gone after that sadly. What is frustrating though is if the referee had rightly booked Berbatov for diving at the start, we would still have had a fighting chance of getting the draw at least. Martin Kelly stood out and in my opinion should be a regular starter over Johnson any day of the week. Overall considering we played with ten men for most of the match the team did quite well. I can already tell that our away form is going to improve under Kenny, (well hopefully anyway)!

Our support was once again fantastic, outsinging them throughout the match, even after the final whistle. What is more, you never hear a peep out of their lot when they've lost at Anfield. What really disappointed me however was the sheer volume of people joining in with the disgusting chants about the Munich air disaster. These idiots are mocking the deaths of fellow human beings, and a former Liverpool captain! It seemed to me that the just over half of the upper East Stand were participating in this vile chant. Saddening is an understatement.

I'm still very encouraged after the performance of today though, and confident Kenny Dalglish can turn our fortunes around. There was a renewed buzz throughout the team today, lets hope it continues!

(clap, clap, clap clap clap, clap clap clap clap, DALGLISH).

[Beninger]

No fair point - and completely agree on the Gerrard point too - my whole argument was based on me thinking exactly that there WASN'T room for interpretation - I thought that, like with deliberate goal stopping hand-ball or a professional foul (well, to a large extent) - that the debate had been deliberately taken out of it, IE that two footed challenges are a red card full stop. I didn't realise there was still so much room for interpretation in it.

I guess, just to play devils advocate for a minute, that the extra foot is something that will automatically make a ref think 'excessive' - there's no need I can see for any player to ever have to go in with both feet more or less extended. I've got little experience of football, but, well you know, played a fair bit in school and on the park etc etc, and I used to love making sliding challenges - I can't remember ever having gone in two footed or felt any need to go in two footed whatsoever, indeed if anything you lose a lot of control and, more importantly, the ability to get up quickly having regained the ball (Mash, for example, is as good as I've ever seen at winning the ball off a sliding tackle and getting up quickly to actually do something with it) - and I struggle to remember him ever going in two footed, where Gerrard makes a real habit of it.

I think we can all agree that, in an ideal world, it's something he'd cut out of his game completely. It does strike me as totally needless. Plus Webb is absolutely a shithouse, just in case anyone thought I was suggesting differently.

Yeah, fair enough.