Author Topic: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.  (Read 44053 times)

Offline SteveZissou

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #80 on: January 2, 2009, 05:06:16 pm »
Remember the "Oh fuckinell No. It's that gobshite again" look that Gerrard gave Carra in one game when Lucas was brought on.
 

Are you sure Stevie's expression wasn't related to something else about the substitution, and not being specific to Lucas?  Maybe Stevie wanted another striker or wide man?  Or maybe he was just frustrated with himself or something else and it only seemed to translate as a reaction to Lucas after the substitution due to the order of television images from one camera to another? 
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Offline Nano

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #81 on: January 2, 2009, 05:23:07 pm »
lucas is playing much better since the PSV game. keep up the good work lad.


gerrard = capt fantastic
mascherano = the destroyer
alonso = the pass master
what about lucas?  :D any suggestions guys?
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Offline Eric

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #82 on: January 2, 2009, 05:24:27 pm »
My theory has to do with the players each is working closest to.

Lucas is surrounded by the best of our team.  He gets balls from the back 4, Masch, or Xabi who would only pass if he was clear of defenders or had the ability to give it back.  Then he is expected to pass the ball along to Stevie, the wingers or forwards.  He is also has to defend, something he is only now coming to terms with.
  No easy feat, but completely different from what Babel is expected to do...

Babel is expected to play out of position, run at defenders, get into space and cross, something he was never good at, and something that our forwards aren't great at receiving.  On top of that he plays with players that are constantly changing cause none are good enough to hold the place.  I think if continues to play on the left, he and Insua may form a decent partnership.  To get the best out of him, I think he needs to be played as a striker or on the right.


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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #83 on: January 2, 2009, 05:27:13 pm »
Are you sure Stevie's expression wasn't related to something else about the substitution, and not being specific to Lucas?  Maybe Stevie wanted another striker or wide man?  Or maybe he was just frustrated with himself or something else and it only seemed to translate as a reaction to Lucas after the substitution due to the order of television images from one camera to another? 
Maybe he was dying for a shite.
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Offline Hazell

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #84 on: January 2, 2009, 05:31:42 pm »
Hope it wasn't a 'look' from Stevie. Clearly Lucas has talent, and if Gerrard is training with him daily, surely he can see that too?

Anyway, they seemed pretty happy on Sunday.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #85 on: January 2, 2009, 05:33:49 pm »
Hope it wasn't a 'look' from Stevie. Clearly Lucas has talent, and if Gerrard is training with him daily, surely he can see that too?

Anyway, they seemed pretty happy on Sunday.
Do you think I would just make that up. Many others commented on it in here at the time. But like meself, it looks like the lad has started to prove himself to many others - including his team mates. And believe me, I am made up about that
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #86 on: January 2, 2009, 05:43:43 pm »
lucas is playing much better since the PSV game. keep up the good work lad.


gerrard = capt fantastic
mascherano = the destroyer
alonso = the pass master
what about lucas?  :D any suggestions guys?
Lucas the hippy ?

Offline Hazell

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #87 on: January 2, 2009, 05:44:31 pm »
Do you think I would just make that up. Many others commented on it in here at the time. But like meself, it looks like the lad has started to prove himself to many others - including his team mates. And believe me, I am made up about that

I'm just surprised at Stevie. Not accusing you of making it up at all.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #88 on: January 2, 2009, 05:51:32 pm »
Much is being made out of how Lucas is going to get games.. Well, it has'nt been much of a problem so far for him to get games. For me, I have liked what Lucas have contributed playing in the "Kuyt role" wide right, supporting the attack - and I would'nt mind him getting more chances in that position.

When talking about surrounding players as factors of success/failure then for sure it matters, Lucas has'nt shone when playing alongside Plessis, f.i. But "surroundings" cannot really be an excuse for Babel and the type of player he is. He often has good support, and when he fails to impress it's generally down to himself.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #89 on: January 2, 2009, 05:55:55 pm »
I'm just surprised at Stevie. Not accusing you of making it up at all.
Don't know why you are so surprised. I love the lad, but let's face it he does have his Steven Gerrard M.B.E. moments
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #90 on: January 2, 2009, 05:58:46 pm »
Don't know why you are so surprised. I love the lad, but let's face it he does have his Steven Gerrard M.B.E. moments

Considering that he used to take the ball of Biscan as often as he could because he didn't trust him with the ball, it certainly doesn't surprise me.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #91 on: January 2, 2009, 05:59:17 pm »
Another great post Yorky. Yes Lucas is looking more and more comfortable with every game.
 
Like you I worry about Babel, I am sure the potential to be a very good footballer is there and those games against Arsenal and Chelsea showed that he has the temperament to deal with the big games. I truly hope the boy makes it.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #92 on: January 2, 2009, 06:00:54 pm »
I particularly enjoyed the bit about Lucas because its absolutely spot on which can only be fantastic for us :)

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #93 on: January 2, 2009, 06:01:13 pm »
Considering that he used to take the ball of Biscan as often as he could because he didn't trust him with the ball, it certainly doesn't surprise me.
He's growing out of that malarkey though. And I don't want to turn this thread away from it's original reason, but I reckon the lad will only be better for his recent troubles.

Time to resurect the greatest midfield in the world song with Lucas in it.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #94 on: January 2, 2009, 06:01:42 pm »
Superb read mate, and some great insights into two of our younger players.

The Lucas part is great- and I agree with it. The main thing I like about Lucas is the reason why I love Xabi- their amazing rapid mental evaluation of their options- they know exactly what they're going to do with the ball way before they even receive it- perhaps 2-3 passes before it gets to them. They're both great at pass and move- you can tell that philosophy of simple football has been instilled into them and they're better players for it. Lucas though is massively dynamic. He's not static like Alonso- Alonso sweeps our team into the equilibrium of attack and defence, Lucas (and Gerrard) are able to pull it the other way when needed with their drive and quick passing. It's a great attacking trio. I've mentioned Gerrard, but the thing Lucas has over even him is that mental discipline that Xabi has- he can calm the football down. Gerrard can do this, but don't forget- he only learned how to do this after Rafa came here. These days Gerrard looks great in CM when he's playing a more patient game- as illustrated by the Bolton match last week.

Yeah- Lucas has got good qualities from two world class midfielders- Xabi and Gerrard. And with them both around him at Liverpool he'll only learn more from them and develop his talents. The one thing I want him to pick up is scoring goals. Gerrard scores a lot of goals for us, and Lucas looks like he can- I'm not worried that he won't as it's just a case of when. He always gets chances when he plays- always. It's just his finishing that isn't upto it. Yet. I keep remembering Luis Garcia- when he first got here from Spain he kept getting into these amazing positions to score (like Lucas does now) but his finishing truly left a lot to be desired. But he was getting into those positions very regularly. When Garcia left for Atletico, his goal scoring record was 1 in 3 starts. For a midfielder who wasn't always in one position, that's amazing. Hell, I'd be happy for any of our midfielders to get that even now. Lucas will start scoring when he starts playing more regularly. And when he does, he'll be right up there as one of the best midfielders in the world.

The case of Babel is different...

I was watching a match from last season and Babel just looked different in his approach and demeanour when he was playing. There was a certain air of confidence maybe, perhaps it was just because he was trying harder or maybe because he was playing more regularly. Contrast this with his performance in the last match and he seemed more lethargic- going past the fullback was definitely not as easy as it should be with someone who has pace and skill- the most lethal combination for a winger to have if combined in the right way.

My hopes for Babel were that he'd really push on this season and reach a level above the one he was at last season. Score more goals, rip the defenders up more regularly, make better decisions and just generally improve our attacking football. For some reason, he's taken a step backwards. I don't know if it's Rafa not playing him that's led to this, or, if Babel's mindsets changed which has caused Rafa to drop him from the first team. His request to move to Ajax can't have gone down well, and it can't have made him feel good either. If he's disillusioned here and his mind's clearly not in it, then I think he'll leave. And I think he's got the talent to perhaps make it at a top club.

I don't blame Rafa for dropping him- I think it's justified, but perhaps Rafa could have used him a lot more against those teams we knew would come to Anfield to defend- his pace could have come in useful.

Maybe Babel would flourish only in a football environment which would allow him to express himself a bit more- but Rafa's a manager who prefers the solidity of Kuyt instead of taking too much risk with the unpredictable Babel. You know what you get with Kuyt- even when he plays poorly in our attack, we know at least we won't concede goals. With Babel it's a lot more unpredictable- which is probably not what you need when you also have players like Gerrard and Torres who play a 'freer' game. Two world class attacking players- you know what you're going to get when they're allowed a freer role to play- goals. With Babel, a player who's still learning his game, it's a lot less certain. And maybe that's too much of a gamble at the moment. So dependable, solid Kuyt gets the nod- a player who will chip in with a few good balls/goals, but also run all day to harrass the opponents to the extent of stopping them playing football.

I'd like to see Babel start the next 2 games at least. But it won't be for Kuyt I feel- but for Riera. And perhaps that's the real competition here for Rafa- Babel and Riera for the left with Kuyt a guarenteed starter on the right these days. 
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Offline Hazell

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #95 on: January 2, 2009, 06:08:08 pm »
Don't know why you are so surprised. I love the lad, but let's face it he does have his Steven Gerrard M.B.E. moments

True. I don't know why I'm surprised either.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #96 on: January 2, 2009, 06:22:10 pm »
Don't know why you are so surprised. I love the lad, but let's face it he does have his Steven Gerrard M.B.E. moments
Ha that's hilarous. I wrote Stevie M.... E.... and it got censored to Steven Gerrard M.B.E.
(It was with out the full stops just added them to see if it gets through now).
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Offline redmeanmachine

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #97 on: January 2, 2009, 06:26:58 pm »
Great thread yorky!

Babel on the otherhand just has the likes of Riera as competition so should get more chance to shine. As I said before we could have started a thread several months ago on "What Babel brings to the team...wheres Lucas?" . Funny old game...football and it's fan's opinions. I still remember the few games we had this season that was crying out for a quick creative force to come on and while its great to just review Lucas on his one or two excellent games recently, the big picture demands a Babel or his future similar replacement to come on when we are chasing games rather than a central midfielder.

I agree with fowlermagic that fans changed their opinions so quickly. I hope the same set of fans do not go slating Lucas again if he does not perform well in some matches. Players have their off days as well. As the saying goes, "Form is temporary, class is permanent". As for my own opinion, I have always rated him since the day he made his derby debut last season by replacing our captain marvel. You do not influence a high stake game like that, if you are not good enough.

lucas is playing much better since the PSV game. keep up the good work lad.
gerrard = capt fantastic
mascherano = the destroyer
alonso = the pass master
what about lucas?  :D any suggestions guys?
lucas = samba maestro?

Maybe Babel would flourish only in a football environment which would allow him to express himself a bit more- but Rafa's a manager who prefers the solidity of Kuyt instead of taking too much risk with the unpredictable Babel.

BazC is spot on with his observation on Babel.

My opinion of Babel, he is the type of player that will develop better under the guidance of different coach with different philosophy than Rafa. Rafa's ideas are simple - he needs all his players to perform defensive duties as well as attacking responsibilities equally well. He is a perfectionist and he wants his players to follow his instructions word by word. This is of course influenced by Arrigo Sacchi's methods. Sacchi once said: "Football has a script. The actors, if they’re great actors, can interpret the script and lines according to their creativity, but they still have to follow the script."

This other manager that I can think of is Arsene Wenger. If anybody here knows what is Arsene's coaching methods? I'm very curious to know how he is able mould rough diamonds like Henry and Pires into a gem of a player? Sometime back, I remember Henry was saying that he has to track back more often in Barca than in Arsenal. In Arsenal, he just need to wait on the wings, and be able to attack on the counter. His statement shows that Arsene methods and idealogies are different from Rafa. I have no doubt that if Babel is in Arsenal team now, he would already be one of their main creative players.

I guess Rafa knows best if Babel can play on a consistent basis because he works with him every day in training. I believe Babel has not done enough to be selected as a first 11. Rafa is a very fair coach. He will give opportunities to those who deserved (Insua comes to mind immediately).

I fear for Babel's future at LFC, because I'm afraid that he cannot meet the qualities that is required by Rafa. I do hope Babel can prove me wrong as I want him to be successful at LFC. This boy has bags of potential.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 06:28:53 pm by redmeanmachine »
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Offline arnaldo

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #98 on: January 2, 2009, 06:30:53 pm »
fantastic read. i said about 6 months ago thast lucas will be the future of our team. my belief has grown in the last month
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Offline MagicB8all

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #99 on: January 2, 2009, 06:32:56 pm »
Babel will develop best under a coach that plays him warts and all. But before that happens he needs to  find his position. He may think its striker. its not in this team !
He's more of a Ronaldo RA player  IMO - I would play him RW all the time now and tell him, if he wants to cut in and shoot, develop your left foot! also beat a player on the outside and cross from time to time
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #100 on: January 2, 2009, 06:42:24 pm »
Baz - enjoyed that. I do think though that Lucas is better than Gerrard in that central midfield role (I also much prefer Gerrard given a license to roam a bit). He understands what's needed instinctively. You could see what Lucas was trying to do when he first came to Liverpool. He was getting the ball and playing very simple lateral passes. He wasn't trying anything ambitious, just wanting to keep the ball and get the team moving with it a bit - get some fluency into its limbs. But it didn't work and the crowd eventually got on to his case and wrote him off as 'a crab'. 

The problem was miscommunication. As a Brazilian he had different priorities, different habits to our lot. Two different football languages if you like - a problem compounded by the lengthy absense of Alonso who, of all are players, has the skills to understand Lucas. What was especially encouraging about the Newcastle match was that it was the first time that Lucas had really thrived without Alonso also in the team.

 
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 06:45:05 pm by yorkykopite »
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #101 on: January 2, 2009, 06:43:05 pm »
are we not going way overboard about lucas here?  a few games ago the lad was being slated and then after one great performance against a shocking newcastle side, he's the dogs bollocks.

i like lucas but lets get some perspective on this.

same with babel, a couple of lacklustre performances and every man and his dog has got a problem with him.  its worth remembering that although he is having a difficult time he has still played very well this season against man utd (h), chelsea (a), marseile (a), and spurs (4-2).

seems to be lucas is getting portrayed as the angel at the minute and babel is being portrayed as the devil.  i don't see it that way, what i do see is a boatload of fickle fans who change there opinion every week.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #102 on: January 2, 2009, 06:44:31 pm »
If Lucas does have a future with the club then either Masch or Alonso will have to sit on the sidelines more. Love both but I think Masch...yeah I know I should not say this...is unnecessary for some if not many of our games as the likes of Stoke, West Brom & Co warrant a Lucas Alonso SG midfield triangle versus a Masch Alonso SG.
 
The below could really stretch the park the bus teams and still fits within Rafa's safety first approach somewhat

.............Alonso
..........SG  Lucas
Benni  Torres Riera or Babel


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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #103 on: January 2, 2009, 06:53:42 pm »
If Lucas does have a future with the club then either Masch or Alonso will have to sit on the sidelines more. Love both but I think Masch...yeah I know I should not say this...is unnecessary for some if not many of our games as the likes of Stoke, West Brom & Co warrant a Lucas Alonso SG midfield triangle versus a Masch Alonso SG.
 
The below could really stretch the park the bus teams and still fits within Rafa's safety first approach somewhat

.............Alonso
..........SG  Lucas
Benni  Torres Riera or Babel

couldnt agree more
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Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #104 on: January 2, 2009, 06:56:00 pm »
BazC is spot on with his observation on Babel.

My opinion of Babel, he is the type of player that will develop better under the guidance of different coach with different philosophy than Rafa. Rafa's ideas are simple - he needs all his players to perform defensive duties as well as attacking responsibilities equally well. He is a perfectionist and he wants his players to follow his instructions word by word. This is of course influenced by Arrigo Sacchi's methods. Sacchi once said: "Football has a script. The actors, if they’re great actors, can interpret the script and lines according to their creativity, but they still have to follow the script."

This other manager that I can think of is Arsene Wenger. If anybody here knows what is Arsene's coaching methods? I'm very curious to know how he is able mould rough diamonds like Henry and Pires into a gem of a player? Sometime back, I remember Henry was saying that he has to track back more often in Barca than in Arsenal. In Arsenal, he just need to wait on the wings, and be able to attack on the counter. His statement shows that Arsene methods and idealogies are different from Rafa. I have no doubt that if Babel is in Arsenal team now, he would already be one of their main creative players.

I guess Rafa knows best if Babel can play on a consistent basis because he works with him every day in training. I believe Babel has not done enough to be selected as a first 11. Rafa is a very fair coach. He will give opportunities to those who deserved (Insua comes to mind immediately).

I fear for Babel's future at LFC, because I'm afraid that he cannot meet the qualities that is required by Rafa. I do hope Babel can prove me wrong as I want him to be successful at LFC. This boy has bags of potential.

Yup, it's very important to consider not only a player's talents but the manager as well. I think there's a reason why Rafa's found it relatively easy moulding young midfielders and defenders into top players (Agger, Masch, Alonso, Gerrard, Lucas, Sissoko, Skrtel... etc) compared to his attacking players- of which only Torres really is the one who truly looks like a world class player. Others like Crouch and Bellamy were decent (and we profited on their sale) but they weren't good enough for Liverpool.

Perhaps that's telling about Rafa. I think he needs to find the absolute right players for his ideas and that will be massively difficult. Or, he needs the money to buy players he can trust to give them more independence (Torres is an example here). It'll be hard for the first to happen- perhaps it's even an element of luck involved. With the money- I have no doubt that if Rafa could hypothetically buy any player- and he bought the likes of Messi, Kaka or Ronaldo, he'd give them the freer roles in attack- because it's less of a risk that when they play more direct and start moving around a lot, they're likely going to score goals or set them up. Not so with your Babels, Pennants, Gonzalez', etc. These players need to work hard to show Rafa they're able to be trusted in playing a freer role, but maybe they're not/haven't been good enough to do that when they're playing in a more defensively minded role.

I brought up the idea of 'cycles' in teams (in the Level 3 thread) and I think that's very important- other managers will take a season or 2 in the wilderness to play younger players (like your Babels etc) and give them the opportunities and trust to play a freer game. When they're developed, have confidence and have the awareness of the team, they challenge for the title, win maybe, then fall away as another team is being built. My theory is that Rafa wants to break away from this cyclical football, and sustain success- which is why he thinks of 'systems' rather than players. But is this philosophy flexible to allow for the development of the younger players in the first team? I don't think so- it's a bit contradictory- the whole idea of the cycle is to build a team, and allow them to make mistakes, but learn from them. Then when they win and the team is broken up (or in Wenger's case, request transfer!) it starts again. It's why you see top teams winning/challenging for a couple of seasons, then falling away, before coming back again. Barca and Real- Barca were invincible almost, won their league, then the next season they won it, but didn't look so good. Season after, Real won it, looked good. Last season Real won it again, but didn't look so good. Now Barca are back on top. Up and down it'll go!

I believe Rafa's trying to break away from it. I think I made the comparison between Gordon Brown and breaking away from the business cycle. Let's hope Rafa can succeed and reach that Level 4 type place (breaking away from the cycle is perhaps what my idea is of Level 4 at the moment) - unlike Gordon Brown who's facing the mother of all financial crises  :-X

Baz - enjoyed that. I do think though that Lucas is better than Gerrard in that central midfield role (I also much prefer Gerrard given a license to roam a bit). He understands what's needed instinctively. You could see what Lucas was trying to do when he first came to Liverpool. He was getting the ball and playing very simple lateral passes. He wasn't trying anything ambitious, just wanting to keep the ball and get the team moving with it a bit - get some fluency into its limbs. But it didn't work and the crowd eventually got on to his case and wrote him off as 'a crab'. 

The problem was miscommunication. As a Brazilian he had different priorities, different habits to our lot. Two different football languages if you like - a problem compounded by the lengthy absense of Alonso who, of all are players, has the skills to understand Lucas. What was especially encouraging about the Newcastle match was that it was the first time that Lucas had really thrived without Alonso also in the team.

 

I think Lucas would be better in that role as well- but perhaps as much to do with Gerrard being so deadly when he's given the freer role. When in CM, the player needs to be disciplined and calculate exactly when he needs to attack and defend- I hate to see Gerrard shackled with those tactical considerations and just love watching him play his football in the free role.

Thing with Lucas is, I'd love for him to be in that free role too. I think he could be as big as Gerrard there. There's 2 ways it could go though. Rafa can play on his dynamic nature and turn him towards Gerrard MkII- drive forward, score goals, get assists. Be supported by players rather than support as one of the focal attackers. Or, he could play on his disciplined mindset a bit more, turn him into a Fabregas type- a player who can keep possession so well in attack- get those assists and turn the screw by conducting the direction of possession from an attacking position. The onus would be for him to support the focal attacker rather than be supported.

There was an instance in the Newcastle match. Carra had the ball, Lucas drives through the middle- bags of space, Carra doesn't pick him out... and the ball goes dead. Gerrard, who covered Lucas, gave him a bit of a go when they were swapping positions again- that 'shackle' of tactical nous and understanding the timings of when to attack and when to stay back were evident on Lucas. I'd like to see what he does when he's less shackled- I think he'd turn into a truly great CM- perhaps the next collussus in midfield after Gerrard.
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Offline freehandjunkie

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #105 on: January 2, 2009, 07:07:21 pm »
are we not going way overboard about lucas here?  a few games ago the lad was being slated and then after one great performance against a shocking newcastle side, he's the dogs bollocks.

i like lucas but lets get some perspective on this.

same with babel, a couple of lacklustre performances and every man and his dog has got a problem with him.  its worth remembering that although he is having a difficult time he has still played very well this season against man utd (h), chelsea (a), marseile (a), and spurs (4-2).

seems to be lucas is getting portrayed as the angel at the minute and babel is being portrayed as the devil.  i don't see it that way, what i do see is a boatload of fickle fans who change there opinion every week.


totally agree..there is no way you can say lucas is now amazing after one game, im not his biggest fan as i dont see what he brings other than being a squad player rather than an essential part of our team, he is a great squad player i add, as for babel the guy has got so much talent its frightening it just needs nurturing, whether rafa is good enough to be that coach, i hope he stays because you can see what he can do and what he can become. he needs to start games he needs a good run in the team,  for me give kuyt a rest or drop him whatever you want to call it.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #106 on: January 2, 2009, 07:24:41 pm »
No one is going overboard.

it's just that those who weren't paying attention now are. those tha tgave him 2 seconds to be great. now are seeing him start to show his quality. he's got more of it to show as well.

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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #107 on: January 2, 2009, 07:37:40 pm »
id prefer lucas to play the deeper role .

he does seem more selective with his runs forward which is a nightmare for defenders if he gets picked out when he does venture.

playing deep especially away from home his decision making is spot on for the counter.

alonso has great passing but lucas's game is far more suited to the quick counter thrust.

id start alonso in every home game and lucas in every away game.
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Offline BazC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #108 on: January 2, 2009, 07:46:29 pm »
id prefer lucas to play the deeper role .

he does seem more selective with his runs forward which is a nightmare for defenders if he gets picked out when he does venture.

playing deep especially away from home his decision making is spot on for the counter.

alonso has great passing but lucas's game is far more suited to the quick counter thrust.

id start alonso in every home game and lucas in every away game.

I'd like to see Xabi start every game, but Lucas and Masch doing the swapping around- Lucas should play regularly at home with Alonso, and perhaps Masch more so away. Not as clear cut as that all the time though. Perhaps even having all 4 in at the same time would be an option that'd work (I think it'd be better than having Kuyt there for a lot of games in terms of keeping possession and creating chances).

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #109 on: January 2, 2009, 07:54:05 pm »
i think rafa has very good options in the middle now so he can mix and match them according to home and away and the opposition we are playing.

woudnt be tempted to play gerarrd too often centrally though.

would love to see gerrard drift right more often.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #110 on: January 2, 2009, 08:33:31 pm »
----------GK----------
------CB-----CB-------
FB-------Xabi-------FB
----Masch-Lucas------
-------Gerrard--------
------CF----CF-------
That formation with two attacking fullbacks such as Maicon and Evra would be mouth-watering.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #111 on: January 2, 2009, 08:38:05 pm »
Baz - enjoyed that. I do think though that Lucas is better than Gerrard in that central midfield role (I also much prefer Gerrard given a license to roam a bit). He understands what's needed instinctively. You could see what Lucas was trying to do when he first came to Liverpool. He was getting the ball and playing very simple lateral passes. He wasn't trying anything ambitious, just wanting to keep the ball and get the team moving with it a bit - get some fluency into its limbs. But it didn't work and the crowd eventually got on to his case and wrote him off as 'a crab'. 

The problem was miscommunication. As a Brazilian he had different priorities, different habits to our lot. Two different football languages if you like - a problem compounded by the lengthy absense of Alonso who, of all are players, has the skills to understand Lucas. What was especially encouraging about the Newcastle match was that it was the first time that Lucas had really thrived without Alonso also in the team.

And this is something you'd highlighted several times beforehand mate - RAWKites take note. The footballing language Alonso and Lucas are familiar with is the one that involves dealing with opposing sides like a mentally disturbed kid calmly and systematically picking the legs and wings off a Daddy Longlegs.

Edit: note that I'm not suggesting yorky is a sociopath... just that he's the Will Graham of football writers.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 10:40:30 pm by royhendo »

Offline maths master

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #112 on: January 2, 2009, 08:39:24 pm »
Not read through athe subsequent comments but the initial post was superbly written.  I hope Lucas can continue the form he showed against Newcastle.  He's had a year to get used to things so if he's gona do it, he has to do get on with it now.

Bitterly disappointed at Babel this season.  Obviously has talent.  Who's fault is it that its not being utilised?  No idea but if someone can get it right then he could win us the league!  Hope he stops whinging!
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Offline Mimi

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #113 on: January 2, 2009, 09:12:39 pm »
If Lucas does have a future with the club then either Masch or Alonso will have to sit on the sidelines more. Love both but I think Masch...yeah I know I should not say this...is unnecessary for some if not many of our games as the likes of Stoke, West Brom & Co warrant a Lucas Alonso SG midfield triangle versus a Masch Alonso SG.

---- I don't get this type of reasoning re Masche and you couldn't have picked two worse games for your point. He didn't play a part against Stoke and that was one of our worst games this season in terms of breaking down a parked team. He was involved in West Brom and we walked that 3-0. It's not so simple is it? The Lucas/Alonso/SG combo was used against Arsenal and when we needed the goal in the second half, what happened? Lucas went up and Gerrard and Alonso hung back. The result was more frustration.

I'm not saying Masche has to start every match but what many people fail to realize is how much a contribution he can make to our attacking game. Leaving the passing aside (I don't think he's that bad), just the fact that he wins the ball so often in the opposition half means we get more attacking opportunities. The first Gerrard goal against Newcastle, Masche wins the ball very close to their box, gives it to Benayoun who feeds it to Gerrard. Goal.

It's why he's so integral to Argentina though they have many attacking superstars.

And yorky's point about Lucas needing Alonso to thrive--- he did very well without Xabi last year when we started playing the 4231. I think the understanding with Gerrard is more important to Lucas. When Gerrard started having faith in Lucas, as shown in the run for his second Newcastle goal, we start to see the benefit of Lucas's attacking game. It's also clearly important to Lucas's own psyche that Gerrard has faith in him because he quite clearly looks up to him.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #114 on: January 2, 2009, 10:03:29 pm »
Nice post Yorky.

When Lucas first came here I thought, on paper, he was the perfect signing in central midfield. Just what we needed - A good young prospect from that great football nation - a player to come on now and then in his first year and maybe take a team forward in the league cup. But he got in ALOT of games - far more than I expected anyway and he was... admirable at best. He ticked it along, looked nice and bright at times, scored one cracker but it just looked too early for him. For me anyway. No worries as far as I was concerned but I did wish he had a bit more needle in his game, or a bit more desire or to have his chin up a bit more?

What the Gremio fans on those forums saw, and what the journalists/writers for 'Placar' saw who gave him the award that helped to excite us so much - I just wasn't. If they thought Lucas was like Falcao - then I've seen him compared to Socrates on here. Socrates! Of all people! So maybe we all get carried away?

No doubt about it - he's had some very good games recently and great to see - Newcastle? Man of the match. Was very dissapointed to see him moved out wide for that last phase of the game when maybe Gerrard should have been there with Lucas in behind but hey. He's also been found a bit wanting these last few months or out of his depth or worse - just in the wrong game.

The boo boys in the ground should be dragged out by the scruff of their necks tho.


Babel? Jaysus. Where to start? Can play everywhere but seemingly nowhere convincingly. How many minutes have we seen him up top? 3?




Offline Dick Emery

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #115 on: January 2, 2009, 10:27:07 pm »
A very informative main post. I would guess most football fans in Brazil know a player when they see one so it's interesting to see their evaluation of Lucas.

I think the fundamentals of the 2 players in question are different. Lucas has the necessary technique but there was a question mark about his physicality in terms of his speed, strength, tenacity, vitality etc. He's begun to answer these questions with some excellent performances.

Babel on the other hand has serious question marks about his technique. He's clearly big, relatively strong and reasonably fast but he demonstrates erratic control of the ball, no great awareness when in possession and his passing is ropey to put it mildy. He's not showing the game intelligence required at the very top end of football.

Offline gazzathered

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #116 on: January 2, 2009, 10:39:13 pm »
Great read, i for one have changed my opinion on Lucas and think that he will become a great player, i used to think he was a good player who would struggle to get into our midfield but after his recent performances i can see him playing more.
On Babel, i thought this was going to be his season, i mean he looks like hes got it all but he just doesnt do it, he makes the wrong decision, turns inside when he shouldnt, hardly pcks out the right pass. I hope we keep hold of him and he comes good though. Its hard for him to get a game also as Riera and Kuyt have been playing really good.
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #117 on: January 2, 2009, 10:49:38 pm »
<snip>


I would like to see Lucas taking some corners though or even trying free kicks. The boy has very good delivery and is criminally not utilised to change things around.

I agree with that.

His dead ball delivery against PSV was fantastic.

Even made Babel look good  ;)
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #118 on: January 2, 2009, 10:53:31 pm »
It is difficult not to agree with some of the arguements and observations here concerning the two players in question. However I would say that in the case of Babel, perhaps more so than in Lucas's case that we ought to revisit this at the end of the season.

It does seem though that he is trusted with the ball with Gerrard/Alonso playing him in and slowly but surely his decision making has been less erratic, perhaps the penny really is finally dropping.

Rafa will give him more chances like Newcastle where he seemed to get better as the game went on and this second half of the season will define his red future.

The adapting style of our play will benefit the two as it will help Keane. Playing a high tempo pressing game supplemented by continual passing and intelligent movement will give them the extra yard to exploit time and space. Newcastle was a taster and I beleive there is better to come, and we will only know how good these lads will become within this system at the end of the season.

I would like to see Lucas taking some corners though or even trying free kicks. The boy has very good delivery and is criminally not utilised to change things around.
Pretty-much sums Babel up really.  What we have noticed of course is how devastating he can be in and around the area.  Perhaps stating the obvious - he's a striker playing as a winger, or to put it a different way; an explosive goalscorer being asked to create chances and get crosses in from wide positions and on his weaker foot.  Maybe it's just not his natural game?

He can be effective from wide areas, cutting inside on his stronger foot, but that alone can't guarantee a regular start if the rest of his 'wideman credentials' are not really up to scratch.

To me he's a player with talent, perhaps lacking in confidence at the moment but not a good enough winger creatively, and way down the pecking order as a striker to warrant a regular start.

I think that IF Babel has a future at Liverpool, it will be a a striker.
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #119 on: January 2, 2009, 10:58:59 pm »
I scoured Ajax forums quite extensively when we signed Babel and the opinion of him was generally quite negative, while their fans were almost universal in agreement that we had heavily overpaid for him. I recall commenting on here that it was somewhat disconcerting that, while the fans on RAWK, many of whom had never seen him play, were declaring him the best youngster in world football (with comparisons to Henry, Ronaldo, Barnes etc aplenty), those who had seen him week in, week out, were far less glowing in their appraisel.

I don't want to be too negative towards Babel.  The first time I watched him was in the under 21 Euros. Many on here hailed him from that performance.   Where he played more as a striker. 

I thought his performances were very a ordinary.

The one lad who stood out was Drenthe.

And, look how that turned out  8)

Then again, I guess the jury is still out on the both of them.
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