Author Topic: Stop being mean about Borini  (Read 20214 times)

Offline guest

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Stop being mean about Borini
« on: September 19, 2012, 06:39:07 pm »
The mantra emanating from Anfield has been one of patience and lowering expectations. A reasonable request for a team with their fourth manager in two years; for a team that have finished the past three seasons in seventh, sixth and eighth; for one currently striving to recover from years of mismanagement at boardroom level. Some still aren't listening.

It started before a ball had even been kicked. "We hope to complete a deal this week which will be a real exciting one for the football club," Brendan Rodgers told reporters, just a week into his new job. "One that will be terrific here. I'm sure and the supporters will absolutely love him." Rodgers might have researched all he could about club and city before joining Liverpool, but nothing can prepare for forensic examination of every word uttered. The mere mention of an exciting signing had supporters salivating.

Much like last summer's fantastical pursuit of Juan Mata, belief of an imminent flamboyant Brazilian or big-name Dutchman went into overdrive. Liverpool had not competed in the Champions League since 2009, nor had the money to attract such stars. No matter. The name of Liverpool carries more weight than recent achievement and financial clout, according to some.

Reality hit hard. When Fabio Borini was unveiled as that exciting signing, he was fighting a losing battle already. There's no flamboyance from the quiet Italian from the sleepy village of Bentivoglio, nor is his name one that reels off the tongue when talking of Europe's top talents. The stigma of being released by Chelsea at a young age does not help his cause, nor does his only productive time in England coming in the Championship with Swansea City.

There is selective patience at work at Anfield right now. After two points from four games, manager Brendan Rodgers has - rightfully - been spared in the pushing of panic buttons. He is a young manager who needs time to adapt to the football club. Likewise, the football club needs to adapt to him. But that is a benefit that hasn't been extended to the playing squad.

Though Steven Gerrard and Luis Suarez have struggled to adapt to the stringent ball retention, and Martin Skrtel has wobbled like a stack of Jenga during an earthquake, it's the £10 million man from Roma who has been identified by some as the weak link. With just four league games played, Fabio Borini is the key suspect in the interrogation over Liverpool's poor start.

It's an unfair assessment, and one which betrays the call for patience. At 21-years-old, his signing is not just for the first four games, but the next four years; even then, his record of 15 league goals in 44 appearances points to an impressive 1-in-3 ratio. His age and inexperience is something conveniently dismissed when looking at his first four league games, as is his station on the right hand side for the majority of those games.

Borini thrives in a central role, his goals for Roma last season mainly a by-product of his well-timed runs into the box and natural, instinctive gravity towards the ball. His stint on the right so far this season can be attributed to his industry and selflessness, married with Rodgers' desire to see his most productive asset - Luis Suarez - in a central role. But deployed in his more familiar role in the middle against Sunderland, there were signs of what Borini is about. His tireless running forced Carlos Cuellar into a short pass back to the goalkeeper, allowing Borini to drill a shot into the keeper. He then struck a well-controlled volley from the edge of the area after a multi-pass move, linking well with Luis Suarez and Raheem Stirling.

Aside from the chances, Borini's movement caused problems for Sunderland's defence, his constant darts near post and far post putting Mignolet under pressure and dragging defenders away from the centre. But much like the man whose boots he's ultimately likely to fill - Dirk Kuyt - a lot of his work will go undetected. It has already. His first four league games have been more productive than claimed; the veracity of his criticism far off the mark. His hefty fee, dictated by others, should not overrule his age and inexperience. Though four years older than Raheem Sterling, he is starting from a similar point, and has actually played less Premier League games.

Though he is yet to score in the Premier League, his finish on his Anfield debut against FC Gomel should provide an insight into his ability at finding the net. If that does not suffice, perhaps his time in Italy's top division will. His nine-goal return last season at the age of 20 is better than many. Alessandro Del Piero scored just six for Juventus at the same age, while Filippo Inzaghi bagged just two for Parma. Udinese striker Antonio Di Natale, then of Empoli, scored six in 33 games on loan at Serie B side Iperzola. Only Adriano, 15 goals in 28 games for Parma, can claim a better record at that age, at that level, over the past 15 years.

Those numbers are meaningless if Borini cannot translate that form into the Premier League, of course. But at the age of 21 and after just four Premier League games, it is far too early to write off the £10 million as an act of folly by Rodgers. The young Italian is a player the manager is familiar with and knows his capabilities, both mentally and physically. Though Rodgers has little choice given the striking scarcity, he's already proven he will be patient with his player. It's time for some in the stands to do so too. Some rightfully shout for patience. It's time to start listening.

Link: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/liverpool/id/110?cc=5739

Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 06:42:01 pm »
People are being mean about Borini? Not seen anyone doing so
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline cyador

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 06:46:14 pm »
Enjoyed that. If i was going to quibble though, i'd say that Borini wasn't released by chelsea, they offered him new contracts but he rejected them all as he wanted first team football.

Offline Ginamos

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 06:50:21 pm »
I've thought everyone was pretty understanding about Borini, he's young, still developing.

A premature discussion which I hope doesn't happen.

Offline guest

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 06:57:19 pm »
You should see my Twitter mentions and hear a few shouts in the Main Stand. There's a sizeable amount moaning about him already.

Offline Marty 85

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 07:07:13 pm »
The fella has the right attitude. I love some of his recent quotes about playing for the team and his willingness to lpay in any position the manager sees fit. He'll find his feet, I'm sure of it.

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 07:08:28 pm »
Good writeup - love the Jenga line.

People dont realise how young he is. It's the beard.
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Offline HighSix

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 07:08:41 pm »
I have not heard alot of moaning really compared to last seasons signings! But as someone who also supports Roma he is playing pretty rubbish & well below his level at the moment.

Offline Ginamos

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 07:09:37 pm »
You should see my Twitter mentions and hear a few shouts in the Main Stand. There's a sizeable amount moaning about him already.

OK fair enough Kristian, I'm a follower of yours but don't often read my Twitter feeds.

I suppose my main concern is opening a discussion before it's an issue. You're obviously closer to the "heartbeat", so if you feel this needs to be nipped in the bud, I can understand.

Personally I feel he's in a tough position after we failed to sign another (more experienced) striker in the window. I'd love him to score a hatful of goals immediately, realistically before that happens the team have to adapt to the new system and he needs to achieve a rapport with the team.

Offline merseymack

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 07:15:36 pm »
Hatrick against man u and we'll let him off with a poor game at west brom ;D. I don't think we're at all looking that bad, the arse apart, so give the young man a bit of slack.

Offline MatthewRedBlood

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 07:25:07 pm »
I've seen nothing in him to suggest he was worth what we paid.

I understand 100% that players need time to develop, bed in ect ect, so i'm not making a proper judgement on him until he's played more games, but from what I've seen he's poor, and looks out of his depth.

He's weak on the ball, tends to go missing. From the right he offers very little, and on the few occasions I've seen him through  the middle he's been far from clinical. The few chances against Sunderland, a top player would of been putting away.

I'm in no way saying he's not good enough to be a player for us in the future like, but personally i'd much rather see him as an impact player off the bench. He's 21. It may seem young, but when you consider the impact Sterling has had, albeit they're different kinds of players, one completely outweighs the other. As for people saying "Borini will be as good as Kuyt one day". Not much to write about is it? We could of just kept Dirk and the 11 million.

I said when we signed the kid Downing should start ahead of him, and i still back that. While Downing may not appear to be the best player (statistically) he certainly provided more goal scoring chances than any other player in our squad last season (55, see opta for proof) without getting an assist, i mean how unlucky is that? I'm not comparing Downing to Cristiano Ronaldo (I'm not on meth) but consider Ronaldo puts 55 chances on a plate for forwards who can't finish (Carroll, Suarez) and they fuck them all up, can you really point a finger at the winger? I'm not a massive fan of Downing, but if Carroll and Suarez had their shooting boots on last season, Downing would of had at least 10 assists. I'd sooner see him starting ahead of Borini, not only because i think he's a better player, but because young players should be introduced slowly.

Not only am i concerned about the amount of time he's playing, the fact Sterling is playing every game is worrying. Don't get me wrong i love watching the kid play, but it's slightly almost embarassing that our best player week upon week is a 17 year old kid. Just shows how far we've failed in my eyes. Sterling should be being played sparingly, as should Borini really, instead we're relying upon Sterling to make things happen, and playing Borini too much, too soon, and out of position because of boardroom fuck ups. It's a bit shite really.

I'd bench Borini for United and start Downing.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 07:27:08 pm by MatthewRedBlood »
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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 07:27:59 pm »
The fact remains, a 21 year old is now basically leading the line at one's of the world's biggest and most well supported football clubs.

With that comes immense pressure.

The lad has the right attitude and mentality though, and I think he's been unlucky not to score.
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Offline MatthewRedBlood

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 07:32:34 pm »
Those numbers are meaningless if Borini cannot translate that form into the Premier League, of course. But at the age of 21 and after just four Premier League games, it is far too early to write off the £10 million as an act of folly by Rodgers. The young Italian is a player the manager is familiar with and knows his capabilities, both mentally and physically. Though Rodgers has little choice given the striking scarcity, he's already proven he will be patient with his player. It's time for some in the stands to do so too. Some rightfully shout for patience. It's time to start listening.


All well and good saying that but are we/were we in a position to be spending 10 million on kid/gamble when we could of had Dempsey for 6 million.

I'll give Borini time, but offer me Dempsey +4 million or Borini right now, i know which i'd choose.

We're not in a position to be taking gambles, and i feel Borini is exactly that. A punt.
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Offline WorldChampions

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 07:36:14 pm »
All well and good saying that but are we/were we in a position to be spending 10 million on kid/gamble when we could of had Dempsey for 6 million.

I'll give Borini time, but offer me Dempsey +4 million or Borini right now, i know which i'd choose.

We're not in a position to be taking gambles, and i feel Borini is exactly that. A punt.

I bet you would be saying the reverse had it gone the way you describe and Dempsey also hadn't scored by this point. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think he's been pretty tidy, unlucky not to score against Sunderland but I don't remember too many chances coming his way so far. Once he bags one there will be no stopping him is my prediction.

Offline MatthewRedBlood

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 07:39:31 pm »
I bet you would be saying the reverse had it gone the way you describe and Dempsey also hadn't scored by this point. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think he's been pretty tidy, unlucky not to score against Sunderland but I don't remember too many chances coming his way so far. Once he bags one there will be no stopping him is my prediction.

I hope you're right. He has been tidy, but for £10 million i want more than tidy, when you've seen what £10 million can buy (Cisse, Ba, Ben Arfa, Dempsey, Berbatov). I'm not saying we could of got any of these players but they're out there, and from what i've seen of Borini, he's nothing special at all in my eyes. Maybe i'll be proved wrong, but from my perspective, he looks out of his depth.

"When you walk through a storm, hold your head up high". Bad advice, I met a bloke once who'd looked up during a hailstone storm, took his eye out, blind now.

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 07:52:27 pm »
Good article as per Kris.

People won't want to hear it but the words time and patience are apt in Borini's case. We've have only seen the little glimpses so far but I think he's more than capable of scoring a good number of goals, look at his Roma stint, say what you want about the league, but the quality of some of his finishes were top notch.
 
Also if people are unaware of the Borini bashing, then you should of been there on Saturday, plenty getting on his back at literally every single error. Heared plenty of usual well thought phrases like "He's absolutely fucking shite!" and "Worse than Voronin!". I even tried to reason with the fella's behind me but they weren't having it.  Played 4 PL games? Nah he's no Messi. Utter shite, sell him. Some fuckwits about I tell ya.

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 07:56:18 pm »


Borini has got excellent movement, he will get into goalscoring positions on a regular basis, he does need to be played centrally, that is his best position but perhaps he should be starting from the bench in the league with Suarez / Sterling / Gerrard as the front 3 with Downing, Borini & Assaidi as backup.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 08:03:54 pm »
Really like the lad, just as I really like Brendan, both are well paid and will be ultimately judged on their impact. Too early to tell in both cases but, because our squad is very thin their fortunes seem bound and a little dependent upon the continued presence of Suarez. I wouldn't like to see the team dependent upon him at this stage of his career because that's a big burden for a young man, regardless of his attitude which is exemplary. I would love to see him succeed but it will be by application more than anything else.
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Offline Digger2God

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 08:33:33 pm »
Good article.  Though the headline was crying out for a "Leave Borini ALONE!!!" :)
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Re: Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 08:34:56 pm »

 Suarez / Sterling / Gerrard as the front 3 with Downing, Borini & Assaidi as backup.
I've being saying this for the last couple of weeks, Borini as a central option from the bench if things ain't going right because he certainly not a winger ,maybe a few months down the line when his confidence is up he could but mainly he should play in the central role starting there in the cups but coming off the bench in the league.

I've no doubt he will prove his worth for us soon enough, but it does piss me off (not blaming him) how watching match of the day last Saturday that half the people who scored were new signings for their clubs and as I'm writing this Oscar has just scored 2 in 2 minutes for Chelsea on his first start, WHY doesn't this ever happen for us where a player hits the ground running ,apart from Suarez I can't remember the last time a player didn't need bedding in time and most times they never do but as always we should give him time and he will show us what he can do

Offline shockwave_dave

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 08:48:49 pm »
You should see my Twitter mentions and hear a few shouts in the Main Stand. There's a sizeable amount moaning about him already.


Yep and it's absolutely embarrassing.

Good OP

Offline Zlen

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 08:58:23 pm »
Wasn't aware people are already making a case against him.
It's unfair on Fabio we've placed him in a position where he is basically expected to deliver, just one more angle to what we've done in final days of the transfer window. He should be given time and support, he actually deserves it as he's giving his all for us. Short fuse on some people I guess.

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 09:01:56 pm »
If we want young players to come through we have to lower exceptions and pressure on them. We really can't expect all players to come in perform like God or Judas. The fact that people are judging him so early is really disheartening.

Offline Johnny B. Goode

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 09:04:27 pm »
Bringing attention to some facts is different than being unsupportive. After all, we all want Liverpool to win and Borini to succeed. The things is that so far he hasn't really given us much to defend him. It's a fact that 11 million on him in our current situation doesn't look like a good option AT ALL. Rodgers will have more questions to answer than Borini if things don't get better by the end of the season. Especially because the italian is being played wide, where we have a number of players who could do the job so much better as it's their position and we are terrible when it comes to forward options, Borini primary position.

The whole thing seems weird, doesn't it? Makes no sense.

Why a player who says his best position is as a forward, our biggest hole in the squad, is being played wide? While already Downing, Suárez, Gerrard, Cole, Assaidi and Sterling could all be wingers...
If he is indeed to be played there, why didn't we use the money to buy a true winger, like Adam Johnson who wouldn't be much more expensive? Even if we didn't go for him, given the options I mentioned...the money then should be absolutely be used for a proper goal scorer

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Offline red_by_dawn

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 09:11:52 pm »
I guess it's also a question about perceived value for money. Roma almost doubled their money on Borini, they paid Parma 5,3 + 2,3m euro and sold him to us for 13,3 million euro (10,5 mill. pounds). To compare, Arsenal signed Lukas Podolski for 10,5 million euros. OK, I know there is a 6 year age difference in Borini's favour, but considering Podolski's price and what Roma paid for Borini, i think it's fair to say we overpaid a bit.

The lad may well come good. Let's hope he does, and that he gets more chances than Carroll to prove it on the field, and the support of us fans while doing it.

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 09:14:55 pm »
Suffering from the same problems as the likes of Carroll and Henderson last season which has nothing to do with ability.

Young at a new club in a team that's not firing on all cylinders and for me most importantly the added pressure of having zero senior players that play in his position that are able to take the spot light of him while he finds his feet.


We've got a bit of a recent history of chucking young lads in at the deep end with a lack of support that you get from having competent alternatives around them..
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 09:18:01 pm »
I guess it's also a question about perceived value for money. Roma almost doubled their money on Borini, they paid Parma 5,3 + 2,3m euro and sold him to us for 13,3 million euro (10,5 mill. pounds). To compare, Arsenal signed Lukas Podolski for 10,5 million euros. OK, I know there is a 6 year age difference in Borini's favour, but considering Podolski's price and what Roma paid for Borini, i think it's fair to say we overpaid a bit.

The lad may well come good. Let's hope he does, and that he gets more chances than Carroll to prove it on the field, and the support of us fans while doing it.

I don't see how that is fair comparison. Borini was available and podolski already signed with arsenal even before Rodgers joined. Now people will compare him to steven fletcher but before the season began I am sure if the fans were given a choice between Fletcher or Borini most would have picked Borini.

He scored 10 goals for Roma last year with limited playing time. He has looked good with his movement and technique and yet people are judging him after 4 PL games?

Offline fowler9_god

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 09:18:25 pm »
Don't see the reason for an article to defend him so soon. I think the majority have been patient with him. He has a very good first touch, makes good runs, doesn't have the defensive nuance of Dirky but is a hard worker. Right now Suarez will play as the main striker.

I'd like to see him making it a 2 with Suarez at times instead of staying wide all the time. (I think he has slowly tried to do it). It'll be great when we are countering. That'll also help when Lucas would cover the fullbacks.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 09:21:53 pm »
I guess it's also a question about perceived value for money. Roma almost doubled their money on Borini, they paid Parma 5,3 + 2,3m euro and sold him to us for 13,3 million euro (10,5 mill. pounds). To compare, Arsenal signed Lukas Podolski for 10,5 million euros. OK, I know there is a 6 year age difference in Borini's favour, but considering Podolski's price and what Roma paid for Borini, i think it's fair to say we overpaid a

Roma only paid Parma for 50% of his contract as they already owned the other 50%.
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Offline red_by_dawn

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 09:34:02 pm »
I don't see how that is fair comparison. Borini was available and podolski already signed with arsenal even before Rodgers joined. Now people will compare him to steven fletcher but before the season began I am sure if the fans were given a choice between Fletcher or Borini most would have picked Borini.

I compared Borini with Podolski as I think they are similar types of players who can play across all the front three positions. I would'nt compare Fletcher with Borini as I think Fletcher is an out-and-out striker only. Didn't really think about when Podolski was signed in terms of being an option for Rodgers, only in terms of price for a similar type of player.

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2012, 09:39:09 pm »
His movement is really good and he's getting into the right positions.  The chances have to be created too and they've been few and far between.

Offline G8S7

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2012, 09:42:23 pm »
Borini hasn't scored at the league yet, but his movement and working ability is quality. Give him some time, he will score.

Offline red_by_dawn

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2012, 09:43:11 pm »
Roma only paid Parma for 50% of his contract as they already owned the other 50%.

Yes, as far as I understood they paid 2,3 mill in January this year for 50% and then 5,3 mill for the remaining 50% in June. 7, 6 mill spent, 13,3 mill sale, or a 5,7 million euro profit for Roma.  i may be wrong, though, these italian co-ownership deals aren't so easy to understand...

Offline Upinsmoke

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Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2012, 09:43:46 pm »
Think Young Borini has done alright personally. He prefers to play up top as a no.9, when he's been asked to play elsewhere (e.g rw) he's put in a shift, gave his all for the shirt.


Offline TSC

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2012, 09:47:27 pm »
There's prob more pressure on him due to the fact that not only is he one of our new signings at a fairly decent price, but also because no-one appears capable of getting on the scoresheet.  If we'd managed to score a few more goals then it may be different.  Also think he's been played out wide right generally which may not be his best position (confess to not knowing much of him prior to signing except he was in Italian Euro squad).  If so, then play him through the middle and see how he goes there.

Offline Dirk18Kuyt

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2012, 09:49:22 pm »
Don't think that anybody's being mean to him.

Fact is he's a 21 year old having to replace Kuyt, Maxi and Bellamy. Not his fault.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2012, 10:00:08 pm »
Yes, as far as I understood they paid 2,3 mill in January this year for 50% and then 5,3 mill for the remaining 50% in June. 7, 6 mill spent, 13,3 mill sale, or a 5,7 million euro profit for Roma.  i may be wrong, though, these italian co-ownership deals aren't so easy to understand...

So it is arguable that both Parma and Roma valued Borini at €10.6m in June this year hence why Roma had to pay €5.3m for the remaining 50% on his contract. I think we paid €12m so it is not much higher than what Roma and Parma valued him at.

And I think he looks much better and dangerous when played centrally.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:06:29 pm by Funky_Gibbons »
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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 10:03:04 pm »
I like the kid a lot I have to say. Cheers Sir!

Offline Cadno

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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2012, 10:14:42 pm »
I like the kid a lot I have to say. Cheers Sir!
Me too.  Think he has fantastic potential
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Re: Stop being mean about Borini
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2012, 10:17:28 pm »
I honestly believe his postion should be where Carroll was, on the bench, to be brought on up front either then shifting Suarez wide or to the bench. I really dont think wide right does him any favours other than of course the obvious one, match time.
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