Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383651 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2760 on: December 1, 2015, 10:31:24 pm »
Why say it then? What's the relevance to the debate?
I quite agree, it's utterly unhelpful, petty party politics.

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Offline west_london_red

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2761 on: December 1, 2015, 10:33:05 pm »
Oh do grow up you dullard.

Seriously, someone doesn't agree with you and your retort is to call them a Tory.



It's not about agreeing with me, it's more the way in which you defend the leader of the Tory party when he clearly insults people, and I'm not just talking about Corbyn and McDonnell but anyone who is against bombing Syria. But you carry on telling me don't understand Cameron, I know when someone's taking the piss.
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Offline johnsmithlfc

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2762 on: December 1, 2015, 10:34:32 pm »
Why say it then? What's the relevance to the debate?


Exactly - the point is that in a serious debate on whether we should send our air force to bomb and spend millions on it...we have the PM throwing insults around to try and bully or guilt people into voting his way.
How does it help to call people terrorist sympathizers?
And whether he's personally calling members of the opposition Sympathizers or others who side with them is pretty much semantics, it's a low thing to say and totally not needed.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2763 on: December 1, 2015, 10:35:04 pm »
It's not about agreeing with me, it's more the way in which you defend the leader of the Tory party ...
No, it means that this shouldn't be about petty party politics.

It shouldn't be about silly name calling.

It really doesn't help a sensible adult debate.....
How the hell is he defending Cameron here?

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2764 on: December 1, 2015, 10:37:00 pm »
I quite agree, it's utterly unhelpful, petty party politics.

No.  It had very little to do with party politics. That message was for members of his own party who were considering voting against the bombing. He is clearly saying that if you side with a terrorist sympathiser then you must be one too. There is no other meaning to take because any other meaning would be irrelevant to the debate.

It's actually the exact same tactic that McCarthy used in the US all those years ago. As I said if you don't understand that you are missing the point completely.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2765 on: December 1, 2015, 10:37:51 pm »
It's not about agreeing with me, it's more the way in which you defend the leader of the Tory party when he clearly insults people, and I'm not just talking about Corbyn and McDonnell but anyone who is against bombing Syria. But you carry on telling me don't understand Cameron, I know when someone's taking the piss.
I didn't defend him, can you actually read?

I merely corrected what had ACTUALLY been said. It was merely a point of fact.

If you can't be bothered to actually read people's posts why bother posting? 


“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2766 on: December 1, 2015, 10:41:04 pm »
I think only a shithouse ;) would use a poster's children to try to score cheap points on the internet.

What do you think?
Asking if you've sent your kids to the recruitment office makes me a shithouse...fair enough.
I take it you and your kids will "sit cowering on the sidelines" then...

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2767 on: December 1, 2015, 10:42:03 pm »
How the hell is he defending Cameron here?

He first said Cameron didn't say it

Then it was Cameron didn't mean all those against bombing are terrorist sympathisers, he was just talking about Corbyn and McDonnell.

And then he says Cameron's comments were 'unhelpful'. They weren't just 'unhelpful' they are insulting
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2768 on: December 1, 2015, 10:46:33 pm »
I will remember to run my pejoratives past you in the future.....

Just to check they are on your approved list...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2769 on: December 1, 2015, 10:46:42 pm »
And why is it acceptable for Cameron to call Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser, I found that part more insulting than any other interpretation.

Offline saoirse08

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2770 on: December 1, 2015, 10:47:09 pm »
I quite agree, it's utterly unhelpful, petty party politics.


Why wouldn't he turn it into a party political issue? The tories turn everything single issue into a party political issue. Everything is a fucking political game to them. They don't actually care about human lives. They believe in power and dividing the opposition. Look at what they've done over the past few months over tax credits. They play games with people's lives every fucking day. He's a c*nt leading a party consisting mostly of c*nts. 
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2771 on: December 1, 2015, 10:48:18 pm »
Why wouldn't he turn it into a party political issue? The tories turn everything single issue into a party political issue. Everything is a fucking political game to them. They don't actually care about human lives. They believe in power and dividing the opposition. Look at what they've done over the past few months over tax credits. They play games with people's lives every fucking day. He's a c*nt leading a party consisting mostly of c*nts. 
That was kind of my think too...

The one time we really need to avoid it....
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2772 on: December 1, 2015, 10:51:12 pm »
That was kind of my think too...

The one time we really need to avoid it....

Why are you completely ignoring that he said this to his own party? The message was for waiverers within his ownn party. It's not party politics, it's McCarthyism, if you are not against them then you must be for them. Guilt by association.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2773 on: December 1, 2015, 10:52:59 pm »
Why wouldn't he turn it into a party political issue? The tories turn everything single issue into a party political issue. Everything is a fucking political game to them. They don't actually care about human lives. They believe in power and dividing the opposition. Look at what they've done over the past few months over tax credits. They play games with people's lives every fucking day. He's a c*nt leading a party consisting mostly of c*nts.

Dog whistle politics. Effective in the right circumstances, and it was main theme throughout the Tory election campaign. Lynton Crosby all over, wonder if he is still working with them.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2774 on: December 1, 2015, 10:56:07 pm »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Offline saoirse08

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2776 on: December 1, 2015, 10:58:08 pm »
Dog whistle politics. Effective in the right circumstances, and it was main theme throughout the Tory election campaign. Lynton Crosby all over, wonder if he is still working with them.


Yep. Throw a dead cat on the table, isn't? That's the so-called strategy he came up with.
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Offline johnsmithlfc

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2777 on: December 1, 2015, 11:00:31 pm »
No.


Well he certainly told his MPs not to.

Prime minister urges Tory MPs not to vote with Labour leader and ‘a bunch of terrorist sympathisers’ against Syria airstrikes

Seems he's calling multiple people terrorist sympathizers and saying anyone who votes the same way will be terrorist sympathizers too.

Not sure how else it can be taken?
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Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2778 on: December 1, 2015, 11:02:04 pm »
No.

Of course he did Alan, maybe not the exact words but it's what his actual words, as reported, impliedI. I'd  like to hear somebody explain what he meant if he didn't mean that. I won't hold my breath though as nobody has come up with a half decent effort so far.Theres no other way to interpret it because there is no other reason to say what he said to his own party.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2779 on: December 1, 2015, 11:04:52 pm »
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/671777350263152640

Is this where it came from?

Yes - and that's not what he actually said. It's all fucking pathetic - people on all sides feigning mock outrage about what may or may not have been said. Could we actually stick to the substance of the issues rather than the pathetic name calling that's being slung around.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2780 on: December 1, 2015, 11:06:49 pm »
Yes - and that's not what he actually said. It's all fucking pathetic - people on all sides feigning mock outrage about what may or may not have been said. Could we actually stick to the substance of the issues rather than the pathetic name calling that's being slung around.

Can you point us towards what he actually said?
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Offline Trada

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2781 on: December 1, 2015, 11:18:17 pm »
Young people who question the Government or media may be extremists, officials tell parents
A leaflet distributed as part of an anti-extremism drive says these signs are 'specific' to radicalisation

Child protection officials been criticised after warning parents that young people who take issue with government policy or question what they are told in the media may have been radicalised by extremists.

A leaflet drawn up by an inner-city child safeguarding board warns that “appearing angry about government policies, especially foreign policies” is a sign “specific to radicalisation”.

Parents and carers have also been advised by the safeguarding children board in the London Borough of Camden that “showing a mistrust of mainstream media reports and a belief in conspiracy theories” could be a sign that children are being groomed by extremists.

Other apparent hints listed include young people changing friendship groups or styles of dress, secretive behaviour, switching computer screens when adults approach, or glorifying violence.

The leaflet says children who show a combination of these signs may be en route to emulating those who “have been persuaded to leave the country in secret and against the wishes of their family, putting themselves in extreme danger as a result”.

“This leaflet aims to help parents and carers recognise when their child may be at risk from radicalisation and where to get help if they are worried,” it explains.

Camden Safeguarding Children Board is a statutory organisation overseen by the area’s local council to safeguard children in the borough.

Council officials and local politicians sit in the board, as well as local voluntary groups and community organisations.  Local Safeguarding Children Boards are mandated by the Government all around the country under the Children Act 2004.

Bella Sankey, policy director at the campaign group Liberty, criticised the leaflet.

“Children should be encouraged to take an interest in politics and think critically about what they see in the media, not deemed suspect for so doing,” she said.

“Clumsy laws and policies that encourage suspicion in family homes will alienate ordinary teenagers and may further marginalise those genuinely at risk. If we want to keep our children away from violent extremism, we must include them in open discussion and teach human rights values, not police democratic concerns about government policy.”

This summer academics and writers warned in a letter published in the Independent that the Government’s counter-terrorism strategy, spearheaded by the Prevent programme, would have a chilling effect on open debate, free speech, and political dissent.

The letter’s signatories warned that groups affected by the crackdown could include non-violent groups such as anti-austerity and environmental campaigners – “largely those engaged in political dissent”.

“Prevent [the strategy] will have a chilling effect on open debate, free speech and political dissent,” the signatories warned.

“It will create an environment in which political change can no longer be discussed openly, and will withdraw to unsupervised spaces. Therefore, Prevent will make us less safe.”

The relevant section of the anti-extremism leaflet reads in full: “The following could describe general teenage behaviour but together with other signs may mean the young person is being radicalised: Out of character changes in dress, behaviour and changes in their friendship group; Losing interest in previous activities and friendships; Secretive behaviour and switching screens when you come near.”

It continues: “The following signs are more specific to radicalisation: Owning mobile phones or devices you haven’t given them, Showing sympathy for extremist causes, Advocating extremist messages, Glorifying violence Accessing extremist literature and imagery, Showing a mistrust of mainstream media reports and belief in conspiracy theories, Appearing angry about government policies, especially foreign policy.”

The document urges parents who are worried about their children to contact the police or the local area's anti-extremism coordinator.

Dominic Clout, the independent chair of the Camden Safeguarding Children’s Board defended the leaflet’s content.

“The leaflet was created by the professional and parent members of the Community Engagement Sub Group of Camden’s Safeguarding Children’s Board,” he said.

“The Board has a duty to safeguard children and the leaflet is intended to support parents on the difficult issue of potential radicalisation of their children.

“None of the statements included are indicative of radicalisation; rather they are a list of factors, which when seen in combination, may be suggestive of extremism. In isolation, none of the factors could themselves suggest extremism for example ‘Glorifying violence’ or ‘Owning a mobile device you (Parent) haven’t given them’.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/young-people-who-question-government-policy-or-the-media-may-be-extremists-officials-tell-parents-a6756086.html
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2782 on: December 1, 2015, 11:26:45 pm »
And why is it acceptable for Cameron to call Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser, I found that part more insulting than any other interpretation.

Acceptable no. Understandable yes.
Corbyn is fucking up and its Cameron's job as Tory leader (but not as PM) to take advantage of that.  All politicians do it. The Tories are masters at it.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2783 on: December 1, 2015, 11:35:03 pm »

Exactly - the point is that in a serious debate on whether we should send our air force to bomb and spend millions on it...we have the PM throwing insults around to try and bully or guilt people into voting his way.
How does it help to call people terrorist sympathizers?
And whether he's personally calling members of the opposition Sympathizers or others who side with them is pretty much semantics, it's a low thing to say and totally not needed.

Counter-productive too. The 'terrorist' pitch was for his own Tory backbenchers. A few of the dumber ones might be persuaded by that wretched argument. But Cameron needs the support of Labour MPs too. My guess is that he'll lose a few of their votes because of this.

There are terrorist-sympathisers who don't want the RAF to get more deeply involved in IS's war on us, but very few. There are probably more Assad sympathisers in Stop the War Coalition than anything. But the majority of people who oppose the government's plans have their own perfectly good reservations that have nothing at all to do with sympathy for either IS or Assad.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2784 on: December 1, 2015, 11:39:29 pm »
No, he didn't.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/01/cameron-accuses-corbyn-of-being-terrorist-sympathiser

“You should not be walking through the lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and a bunch of terrorist sympathisers,” the prime minister reportedly told the committee.

His remarks, echoing an attack on Corbyn at the Tory conference in October, were confirmed to the Guardian by a senior MP who attended the meeting and came as the Labour leader accused Cameron of adopting a “bomb first, talk later” approach.



« Last Edit: December 1, 2015, 11:42:38 pm by Andy @ Allerton »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2785 on: December 1, 2015, 11:52:17 pm »
Of course he did Alan, maybe not the exact words but it's what his actual words, as reported, impliedI. I'd  like to hear somebody explain what he meant if he didn't mean that. I won't hold my breath though as nobody has come up with a half decent effort so far.Theres no other way to interpret it because there is no other reason to say what he said to his own party.

Firstly - why do you give a flying fuck what Cameron says to his MPs. Secondly, if we're talking about what might be implied rather than what was actually said then Corbyn's and McDonnel's past comments could be interpreted as having implied support for terrorists without necessarily saying it.

Moaning because Cameron said a bad thing about Jeremy is pathetic. Our leadership needs to grow a fucking pair and start leading. Make the case against air strikes and defeat the government if that's what's right.

The Tories must be pissing themselves. Cameron is using dirty tactics to minimise the possible rebels in his party. It's politics for fucks sake. Well done to everyone for pointing out that the Tories play dirty. I know it's unfair when Jeremy is doing his new style of politics and they're playing the same old games.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2786 on: December 1, 2015, 11:57:31 pm »
Firstly - why do you give a flying fuck what Cameron says to his MPs. Secondly, if we're talking about what might be implied rather than what was actually said then Corbyn's and McDonnel's past comments could be interpreted as having implied support for terrorists without necessarily saying it.

Moaning because Cameron said a bad thing about Jeremy is pathetic. Our leadership needs to grow a fucking pair and start leading. Make the case against air strikes and defeat the government if that's what's right.

The Tories must be pissing themselves. Cameron is using dirty tactics to minimise the possible rebels in his party. It's politics for fucks sake. Well done to everyone for pointing out that the Tories play dirty. I know it's unfair when Jeremy is doing his new style of politics and they're playing the same old games.

People are miffed, I think, because you'd expect some basic decorum off the supposed leader of one of the richest and most influential countries on Earth..
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2787 on: December 2, 2015, 12:10:22 am »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/11/18/does-isis-really-have-nothing-to-do-with-islam-islamic-apologetics-carry-serious-risks/?postshare=5661447886714901&tid=ss_tw-bottom

Read this just now and seems to strike a fairly balanced view. It's not long enough but makes a point. From my own perspective I dislike islam as much as christianity, judaism and hinduism ad infinitum. I've got no particular beef with any in particular, I just think they're all equally wrong and any group that decides to kill people based on fairy tales should fuck off

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2788 on: December 2, 2015, 12:14:46 am »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/11/18/does-isis-really-have-nothing-to-do-with-islam-islamic-apologetics-carry-serious-risks/?postshare=5661447886714901&tid=ss_tw-bottom

Read this just now and seems to strike a fairly balanced view. It's not long enough but makes a point. From my own perspective I dislike islam as much as christianity, judaism and hinduism ad infinitum. I've got no particular beef with any in particular, I just think they're all equally wrong and any group that decides to kill people based on fairy tales should fuck off

To be fair most of the world decides to kill people based on money, resources, power, influence and just because they can.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2789 on: December 2, 2015, 12:26:15 am »
Don't think I've seen it in here. Hilary Benn on why he is for air strikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7xObcxZY9IQ&app=desktop
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2790 on: December 2, 2015, 01:03:28 am »
This is what I wanted to post but my phone was playing silly buggers
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjHb4C7b94

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2791 on: December 2, 2015, 01:25:49 am »
Muslim fundamentalists need to be dealt with. They're a threat to our way of life and should be dealt with. Send in the sas, fuck their main hubs

For context I've just seen a anti islam  video. I hate these fuckers,  whether christian or muslim or jew and always will. Muslim  or not, who cares
« Last Edit: December 2, 2015, 01:32:09 am by Golden_Child »

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2792 on: December 2, 2015, 02:49:46 am »
I can't believe the Lib Dems are going to vote with the Tories again.

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2793 on: December 2, 2015, 07:02:34 am »
Firstly - why do you give a flying fuck what Cameron says to his MPs. Secondly, if we're talking about what might be implied rather than what was actually said then Corbyn's and McDonnel's past comments could be interpreted as having implied support for terrorists without necessarily saying it.

Moaning because Cameron said a bad thing about Jeremy is pathetic. Our leadership needs to grow a fucking pair and start leading. Make the case against air strikes and defeat the government if that's what's right.

The Tories must be pissing themselves. Cameron is using dirty tactics to minimise the possible rebels in his party. It's politics for fucks sake. Well done to everyone for pointing out that the Tories play dirty. I know it's unfair when Jeremy is doing his new style of politics and they're playing the same old games.

I think if you read my contributions to this thread that you will see that I was saying almost everything that you just said, particularly the bit that I bolded. I actually never moaned about what he said. I just pointed out that to say that he wasn't trying to tar all the anti-bombing lobby with the one brush was completely inaccurate.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2794 on: December 2, 2015, 07:34:35 am »
I think if you read my contributions to this thread that you will see that I was saying almost everything that you just said, particularly the bit that I bolded. I actually never moaned about what he said. I just pointed out that to say that he wasn't trying to tar all the anti-bombing lobby with the one brush was completely inaccurate.
I pretty much agree with what you have said.

I was just clarifying the words used by Cameron, rather that what they might imply (well, probably do imply let's be honest).
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2795 on: December 2, 2015, 09:17:20 am »
I see the brilliant Stella Creasy MP is under threat from Momentum for thinking about exercising her right to vote according to conscience for the extension of attacks against IS from Iraq to Syria. Momentum claim that they are taking the fight to the Tories. Creasy is Labour and has a majority of 23,000.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/stella-creasy-targeted-deselection

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2796 on: December 2, 2015, 09:45:20 am »
I see the brilliant Stella Creasy MP is under threat from Momentum for thinking about exercising her right to vote according to conscience for the extension of attacks against IS from Iraq to Syria. Momentum claim that they are taking the fight to the Tories. Creasy is Labour and has a majority of 23,000.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/12/stella-creasy-targeted-deselection


I'm more concerned with the fact Momentum "activists" decided it was appropriate to protest outside her house late last night because "she doesn't have any kids to disturb."

Either way, I think it's really heartening to see a group of middle-aged men who feel inadequate having never achieved anything with their lives putting all their energy into attacking a successful young woman. New politics.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2797 on: December 2, 2015, 10:25:40 am »
When you go to war, you should have an end or an outcome in mind.

I just can't find 2 people with a consistent opinion on where this will lead to.

Limit/restrict IS seems to be the mantra, whereby anything from 40,000 to 70,000 (love how those figures round up nicely) are then expected to put aside their agendas, beliefs, and work together (with Assad's forces I presume), in a sort of Blade II 'We haves new breed of Super Vampire that threatens us all, so we must put aside our differences for now' mission.

IS will be squeezed on all fronts, and while their 'leaders' will be captured/killed, the majority of their militants/terrorists/murderers will down tools, and disperse into the crowd.

The world perhaps unfurls another "Mission Accomplished" banner.

Then what?

How do you break it to the Kurds that the party's over, and they must all go back to their regions as 3rd class citizens (behind Turks/Syrians and cattle)?

What of your friednly neighbourhood Assad?

Who is going to provide security and stability from the battle hardened Saddam's Elite (now ex-IS), who could give a fuck about Islam or any ideology and will simply turn to the highest Saudi/Qatari/Turkish backed bidder to continue planting IED's and truck bombs in markets, processions, mosques and weddings?

These are just some of the questions I continually find myself asking not now because we're about to get involved (Bless our forces I really don't think our few creaking tornados are going to change the course of something the US -and recently French- have been at for some time), but because -rather inexplicably- we seem to be going down the same head bashing methods of the past which have caused one failed state after another.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2798 on: December 2, 2015, 10:51:17 am »
TTK, I agree with some of what you say, disagree with others.
-rather inexplicably- we seem to be going down the same head bashing methods of the past which have caused one failed state after another.
This I agree with. However, what is your desired outcome? What kind of state would you be looking towards establishing/encouraging? Where are the examples in the region?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #2799 on: December 2, 2015, 11:02:01 am »
Bearing in mind we have a request / invitation from the Iraqi Gov to bomb ISIS in Iraq.
Is it even "legal" to enter Syria without the same request or Invitation? for that matter  what happens  If Russian Bombers crossed the border into Iraq, would that be legal ?
What happens if Syria locks its air defences onto our Tornado's ?
Do the pilots just ignore the audible cockpit warnings like the Russian pilot did last week ?
Does Syria have a right to defend its borders and airspace ?