Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1  (Read 8677 times)

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Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« on: January 18, 2016, 12:04:21 pm »
I had a few options here.

I could have gone with the easy choice, pick a few of the more challenged posts from the regular post game thread, ridicule them a little, pontificate about maintaining some perspective, and so on. These are the same players who scored six against whoever, whenever, show some loyalty, this is not who we are, you know the drill.

Or I could have plumped for the match analysis option, De Gea being MOTM, we had more shots, more tackles, more passes, I swear we could have had four on another day, we made them look terrible, and then one shot on target and the points are theirs, the injustice of it, sure isn't football a funny old game all the same?

What about the injury blight? Missing Coutinho, Sturridge, hell Danny Ings would have slotted home a few, no doubt in my mind. Lovren would have wrapped up Fellaini, wouldn't he? Eh?

No.

There is a hierarchy of results for most football clubs and we are not much different. Away win, home win. Away draw, home draw. Away loss, home loss. Then we have a special little category just below those, entitled "home loss to them". And there we sit.

There is no redemption for you here, no silver lining, no moral victory. This was a result to be wrapped up in shitty brown paper, taken out into the middle of the road, set alight and then pissed on. Fuck that game, and fuck those fucking fuckers.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 01:08:27 pm »
Deep sighs

It's like a blunt sword at times. It's not sharp enough to pierce and mame repeatedly but every now and again it will cause bloodshed. Sunday 17th Jan I turned 39. Lots of family and friends at the match and even my own 4 year old daughter singing along to "Liverrrrpoool, Livverrrrrpoool". All that helped when the trauma of lack of concentration by defence caused the potato faced granny loving Rooney to nail a goal for Manchester United. They did nothing all match and then that. A sucker punch if there ever was one

It did however bring out the key inadequacy in the team. We create but don't finish. If we do finish we aren't always strong enough to keep the concentration to hold on to the win. It's not a new thing. We've been like this for a while and I don't want to go into the simplistic nature of blaming players. We ride together, we die together as those Bad Boys for life once said.

Klopp has reached an impasse of sorts. He knows we have weaknesses but there is only so much patching and juggling you can do. The decimations by injury or a lack of will/fight will be the short, sharp electric shocks that we seem to get week in week out. We put hopes on a striker who can't get out of the executive boxes and onto the pitch. We don't know why but we know the answer to questions will be "no". We have a striker who can't mix it with the play but can score twice in a week to bring home six points. We have lots of pieces but the jigsaw always seems to be missing something from completing the picture. Everyone and their dog has an idea. Some fans will even evangelise their abilities to be better than our scouts, transfer committees etc (note none of those evangelising do anything but this... if they could why aren't they professionals in the game at it?). We could nit pick at so much but my gut sentiment simply says we'd still be missing pieces at the end of it. I'll leave that headache to the manager and his men. They know better than me that's for sure.

It was the most negative United team I've ever witnessed play at Anfield or at Old Trafford when we go there. It won. It's cruel. It's cold and it's very very annoying/saddening. They will attempt to dress it up as tactical. It wasn't. They benefitted where we couldn't and David De Gea was man of the match for them again. In the cold light of day that's pretty much all this game was, a keeper keeping them in it.

One day it will be different. Til then it's a waiting game with highs and lows.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 08:04:25 pm »
That one hurt.

Iīll be honest, when Klopp arrived I told myself to write off the season. I knew we would need a pre-season and a few key players added down the spine of the team before we would start being like a Klopp side.

Then you get swept up in the good performance, great wins, managers words etc and find yourself having hopes and expectations which arenīt realistic at the moment. Here's why - and hopefully in explaining my thoughts out loud it will also explain why those shouting for a complete overhaul of playing staff might be wanting to rethink things.

Essentially we have built a squad to play several different ways. I have no idea why. But it seems we loaded up on versatile players who donīt really excel in a certain playing style and then added a few specialists which we can use to dictate how we want the side to play. As a result we never have 11 players on the pitch who can play together cohesively. The best and most obvious example is Benteke as itīs slapping us in the face with every passing game. There are others too though. Where are the pacey wide forwards? Where are the goal scoring players in behind the forward? Where is the clinical finisher? Where is the dominatant center half? Where is the bullying holding midfielder? Who is our central playmaker?

As a result, this side has a glass ceiling no matter what way it plays and that is probably about 5th-7th right now. Thatīs not to say there are not players in this squad capable of better, its just collectively, perhaps that is their level. Tactically, whatever way Klopp wants to set us up at the moment, you feel like 4-6 players are good fits for it and the rest can "do a job".

We then have 2 choices to make, do we go with whatever is most likely to get us results in the short terms? Or do we go with whatever Klopp believes will be the dominating football of tomorrow and see what players simply cannot adapt to it and move them on? United seem to be doing the former. Itīs all about results. They never look like winning anything again the way they are going at the moment, but in the short term they will maybe reach their target of 4th place. Then itīs either a season of transition next season or more of the same, short term thinking, results based football.

Klopp is clearly doing the latter. And we will be wildly inconsistant because of it as sometimes we will hit that glass ceiling as we have too many players on the pitch who arenīt what we need for the role they are being asked to perform. Sometimes the ones who fit will excel and pull the level up for the others for particular games. Sometimes the bad fits will break the system and we cannot get into a game at all and take an ugly, spineless, beating. And this is why I wanted to write off this season. Back the team. Support the players. Cheer for wins but donīt get wound up about the defeats or bad performances. Every one of those bad days/nights will teach him far more than the good moments and will shape our squad for next season. Until eventually he has 8,9,10 players on the pitch who are good fits for his system and way of playing. Until then, itīs absolutely impossible to judge what the side is capable off. Therefore impossible to have any expectations to place upon them.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 10:37:03 pm »
It's a big of a muddle at the moment.

We lost, not good and it hurts.
We've seen the stats and looked with our own eyes, we know where the problems are.

Our one lapse at a set play and we got punished, that's the game.

Difference for me this week is the difference in our general performance.
Yes, we've lost the 3 previous to Utd as well but in those games we were abject.

It's an old argument but had we come away with 6 points from the last 2 games would it have undeserved?
But, we didn't and there are lessons to learn. At the start of a new job/project these can prove beneficial in the long run.

Lots of questions around Benteke and it remains to be seen what will happen signings wise this month but his goal record is good. Think he should have been introduced earlier.
Probably not a popular view on here but if he remains our main striker for the rest of the season we've got to try and get the best from him.

Can't say I agree with the notion of a 'free pass' season for the manager.
Realistic expectations are fine and we probably all know our limits but we need to find ways to win more games.
There is plenty left to play for.




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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 11:25:07 pm »
Essentially we have built a squad to play several different ways. I have no idea why. But it seems we loaded up on versatile players who donīt really excel in a certain playing style and then added a few specialists which we can use to dictate how we want the side to play. As a result we never have 11 players on the pitch who can play together cohesively. The best and most obvious example is Benteke as itīs slapping us in the face with every passing game. There are others too though. Where are the pacey wide forwards? Where are the goal scoring players in behind the forward? Where is the clinical finisher? Where is the dominatant center half? Where is the bullying holding midfielder? Who is our central playmaker?

As a result, this side has a glass ceiling no matter what way it plays and that is probably about 5th-7th right now. Thatīs not to say there are not players in this squad capable of better, its just collectively, perhaps that is their level. Tactically, whatever way Klopp wants to set us up at the moment, you feel like 4-6 players are good fits for it and the rest can "do a job".
Some good observations here. I had a fairly in-depth article I half-wrote last summer but never finished about Rodgers and 'specialisation' - the main focus of it was based around how he seemed to be structuring and basing the midfield on, as you say, versatile players - players who didn't necessarily fit into, or at least didn't play a specialised role (some might say a 'jack of all trades' type), players who worked hard, were decent passers but perhaps were limited in crucial areas. When you think about it like that, it wasn't hard to see why he preferred players like Henderson, Lallana, Allen and Milner. Unfortunately once Suarez left and Sturridge got injured, we became reliant on these players to dominate games for us, even while they weren't really even being played in specified roles and that just led to a lack of identity in the whole team. At least part of the reason why we went on a run for two or three months at the start of last year was because Rodgers changed the formation to a 3-4-2-1 and players started taking up more distinct roles - Skrtel swept up behind Can and Sakho, who operated as ball-playing CBs, Lucas was the DM in front of them who, because of the back three, had a smaller and more defined space to cover, Henderson went box-to-box and Coutinho and Lallana clearly operated as no.10s in the 'half-spaces' behind the striker. Even Mignolet's role was more precise in that he had Skrtel in front of him as the pivot for the back three, meaning he didn't have as much responsibility in possession and so could concentrate on his strengths. There was a much clearer structure, one where individual players had more specialised roles and were able to concentrate on those roles instead of trying to do a bit of everything.

What we have now is the other side of that problem which is that we have too many players who just don't excel at anything, players who don't necessarily suit the same system and style as you point out, and a squad that is lacking in key roles and positions. All Klopp can really do is to start introducing his ideas gradually, making little adjustments (making the team more compact, closing off the midfield better, players running more, working on a few positional aspects) and start concentrating on the players he believes have a future, like what he's doing with Can for example, who he seems very keen to use in midfield even if that means dropping Lucas in at CB at times. Right now it's hard to see us improving all that much in terms of results so we're just going to have to stick at it in the league and maybe be more pragmatic in the cup competitions where we have a decent chance of doing something (certainly in the League Cup).
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Offline andy07

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 12:06:14 am »
We have a built in inferiority complex against United on and off the pitch. The Utd team that played at Anfield on Sunday was their poorest team in living memory......and we lost!
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Offline mersey_paradiso

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 12:10:02 am »
We have a built in inferiority complex against United on and off the pitch. The Utd team that played at Anfield on Sunday was their poorest team in living memory......and we lost!

Klopp will get rid of that fear and inferiority complex amongst some of the players and  fans - it may take time but it will happen .

Germans don't do fear as we have seen at penalty shoot-outs  ;D



« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 12:15:08 am by mersey_paradise »
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 08:43:01 am »
There were positives in this game though,  despite the jarring result.

Firmino continues to improve and get a grip on the physicality of the league.  Add in a CF who is as mobile as he is and I think we'll be on to something with him.  Works his ass off for the team too.

Lucas played very well,  and is the one player in our team who doesn't panic in possession or give the ball away stupidly under pressure.  I thought Milner showed his experience too and did well.

Sakho was good too,  but special mention mnust go to Kolo who played out of his skin given his age and recent injury issues.

I still worry about end product from our midfielders,  I said in another thread that Can,  Hendo,  Lallana,  and Milner have no real goals in them,  but substitute in Coutinho,  Sturridge (I'm an optimist!!)  and maybe one other who isn't here yet and I think we'll be OK.  We need to sort the Sturridge situation out.  We either get him fit or replace him as the centre point of our goal scoring.

Negatives.   Jordon Ibe is really starting to concern me.  How many times has he run the ball out of play when we have a dangerous attack developing?  Maybe he is trying too hard, maybe he'll never have enough game intelligence  I dunno,  but it's negatively affecting the team and I think he needs taking out of the firing line as s oon as players are fit.  Showed massive inexperience on the corner they scored form as well :(

Benteke.  That moment when he stood watching the play yards offside, sums him up for me.  For a big bloke he isn't the best at holding the ball up either. 

Overall a chastening loss to the Mancs,  but I remain positive that we have a decent squad that needs some luck with injuries and a couple of decent additions.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 10:12:28 am »
The silver lining is there for me.  It has been there since we've gotten in Klopp. It was all too apparent that the failures against Utd were less down to tactics and more down to personel. This was especially true of this game. We nullified Utd and created chances.  We just lacked the quality to convert. 

With the goal, I think the marking of Fellaini was moot. Ibe was a spectator as his man, Mata, dandered over to the corner flag, received a pass and was able to cross from a good angle unchallenged.  If you've got a problem defending against tall players from crosses, the best tactic is to stop the crosses coming in.  Then we look at Lucas (who was really good generally), a 5ft 10 player leaving his mark (Rooney) to challenge for a header against a 6ft 5 player who was already marked by 2-3 players. If Ibe had stuck with Mata, or Lucas with Rooney, we'd likely have been only ruing two dropped points. 

Concentration is the key. And it's not just at set-pieces.  Concentration up front.  Reading what other players are doing or are going to do. In that respect we missed Coutinho, who seems more atuned to what Firmino is going to do. 

Benteke continues to look like he attends different training sessions and pep talks to the rest of the team. For someone who arrived at the club with a reasonably prolific record, his movement off the ball is atrocious.

But yeah.  There's a man in charge who seems to know what the problems are, and he likely will have the backing to remedy some of those in the summer.  That's the silver lining. 

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 12:52:59 pm »
This was precisely the type of game where I should avoid commenting in the post match thread. The sheer anger I had at the fact that we didn't turn up against probably the worst united team in decades definitely coloured the posting of myself and a great number of people on here.

But having had two days to attempt to digest the result, it's becoming a lot clearer what Klopp is doing. We battered them, and pretty effectively too, with a team that admittedly was largely first teamers but which was still decimated by injury. Our team also didn't cost anywhere near as much as United's - some scant comfort can be drawn from the fact that while we haven't exactly been amazing in the transfer market recently, United have been fucking awful. The Ģ59M spent on Di Maria must rank as one of the worst bits of transfer business in history, yet we still get battered for spending Ģ15M on Balotelli or Ģ35M on Andy Carroll, both players who have proven they can stomach the Premier League, albeit not at Liverpool.

A club like United should, under normal circumstances, give us a test. It's just that they were so fucking bad, and yet did the smash and grab, that hurts the most. The temptation to blame a player (Mignolet) for their goal is all the more tempting, even though really there was little he could have done - it would have been a world class save from that distance under those circumstances to stop that shot. If Rooney had scored after 20 or 30 minutes, we wouldn't be having the discussion - at 80 minutes, you knew the game was pretty much up. We could blame the defenders, but in reality it was their one brainfart moment that got us punished - until that point Sakho and Toure had them in their fucking pockets. Toure especially had a wonderful game, and by and large is treating us to a nice swansong (I'd be tempted to give him another year, just to have a senior pro around the club). Let's not forget Sakho is still coming back from injury, and with Lovren due back soon will form a cohesive unit that we can build upon.

Something we can build upon. It's what this season will be judged as, the foundations for Klopp's reinvention of the club. With the players currently being picked and the positions they are occupying, it is becoming clear where Klopp is heading with the squad. Firmino, for example, is clearly being shaped for either a direct centre forward or false 9 role. He's missing his mate at the moment (as did we on Sunday), but he's continuing to grow into the club. A solid, hard Klopp pre-season will shape this boy next year, mark my words. We'll only see glimpses of Boberto this year, next year I expect him to cause teams some serious problems. Another is Emre Can: guilty again on Sunday of indecision and delaying passes when players were clear, but who is still only 22!! He's already given us enough to get excited about, and but for the width of a post would have had us out of our seats in joy. Clyne also caused plenty of trouble, and Lucas was just, well, Lucas. If he'd chinned Sideshow Bob I wouldn't have complained. His fire and experience of these fixtures over the best part of a decade is invaluable experience for a young and new squad.

There is a spine there, which will be further complemented by the likes of Grujic and (if he comes) Matip. But outwith that group, there are players who should rightly be casting nervous glances over their shoulders. Adam Lallana is on borrowed time in my eyes; barring the occasional (and I mean occasional) assist he contributes virtually nothing, and at Ģ26M is slowly finding himself involved in the previously-mentioned 'biggest waste of money' category occupied by the likes of Di Maria, Balotelli and Carroll. While you can say that someone like Emre Can can have distribution and timing of passes trained into him over a pre-season, Lallana is a seasoned pro who is 28 in May and should be entering his peak. His dithering, indecisive and nervous manner on the ball is starting to drive me bananas - I can recall at least two occasions on Sunday where a quick pass would have set players in on goal. instead he twatted around with the ball, endlessly dribbling, confused and seemingly unable to pick out a pass. I'm sick of the Cruyff turns Adam, give us an end product or you'll be gone in the summer. Another is Benteke, who it appears is going to either fulfill the role of super sub or chuck the big guy up top when we're chasing a game. Without a top class crosser he is utterly wasted in this team - perhaps Klopp might just have one of these guys on his shopping list this summer, who can say?

The final player who I think may find himself in a fight for a starting place is Jordan Henderson. A controversial choice, I know, but a point worth making. We have always had success when we've had goals coming from midfield - historically we have had the likes of Souness, Whelan, Alonso and of course Gerrard. Lads who will come up with a goal when you need one. I'm not convinced Jordan has it in him - 23 club goals in 8 professional seasons is not a record you can call upon when you're chasing a game a la Olympiakos in 2004 or West Ham in 2006. Of course, comparisons to Gerrard are perhaps a little cruel, but then he is the club captain. Maybe he is struggling with this persistent injury, maybe he's lost a bit of direction. But I think it's important for Jordan to have competition in there, and to know that even though he's club captain, it doesn't necessarily mean he's first name on the team sheet. It will hopefully inspire him to become the player we all want him to be, and at 25 he does very much have time on his side. If anyone can help him achieve it, Klopp can.

All in all this game was a bit of a watershed moment, a line in the sand. Klopp was gutted after match because he lives it as much as we do. I'd be annoyed if he wasn't upset. He's a winner after all. But make no mistake, the future will be bright under Jurgen. He might not get the star names some of the fan base are desperately craving, but then no one had heard of Marco Reus, Robert Lewandowski and Mario Gotze either...

Offline Garstonite

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 01:03:03 pm »
I like the Round Tables. It's great to have a couple of days to reflect before you respond. It's easy to react negatively to a result like this. End of the day, it's the same old story for us. We don't score goals and we can't defend set-pieces. It's a recipe for one bang average season.

But there is definitely elements to our play that are encouraging. I think we are controlling most games we enter at the moment. We are physically competing. I said on Twitter at half time that we looked like we wanted it more. That's half the battle. The rest is in having the composure and the quality to punish teams. That's clearly an area that we're lacking in. I think our starting eleven in this game had about seven league goals between them so it's no surprise that we struggled in front of goal.

For my money, we need to get rid of Lallana. No goals in eight months for a player who constantly occupies dangerous attacking positions is a dreadful return. You can't afford to carry somebody like that when you aspire for positions in the top four. Add a clinical edge to this frontline and make a few key signings in defensive positions so we can stop proverbially crapping ourselves every time we concede a corner and we'll pick up more points than people think imo because the structure of the side - with Can and Henderson in midfield - looks solid, energetic and technically sound.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 01:19:08 pm »
Well, its a script we've known all too well for many, many years - dominate without scoring then concede a soft goal to contrive to lose a match we should've been winning. Usually its the shit teams that did this to us, so it is no surprise that this utd team is really shit (though what does that make us?). Even when we got done by them in a similar way when Rafa was here, at least their team was actually good.

It is galling to know that we have got 1 point from 2 games when we should've had all 6. The positives are there, but we can't hide from the negatives which are magnified after losing. At least Arsenal were a team in form and can score goals so taking a point wasn't as crushing as losing to a shit Salford Wanderers.

At this point it feels a bit like where we were last December when Brendan decided to put Sterling up front instead or Balotelli/Lambert - the performances started improving and we started to play football but we were missing chances before of the lack of true goalscorers. Klopp is having the same problems, the current preferred attack minus Benteke does everything we need in terms of playing well and creating chances but it relies on the likes of Coutinho, Firmino & Lallana to score and they are not regular goalscorers though obviously it is slightly unfair to pin that on them since they are not strikers.

I guess we need to redouble our January transfer efforts - can we get a guy in up front who can actually help us play how we want and score a few goals? There are guys out there who could do a job who might be available on loan. Buying Shane Long for lots of money probably isn't a great idea long term.

Of course top quality isn't available, but at the moment with all these injuries we don't actually have any competition for places in attack so making changes is difficult. Either that or we put our faith in Ojo or Sinclair (if we still want to invest in him) as it is obvious that barring a complete change of style, Benteke is not going to cut it as a Liverpool player. He is the only (fit) player who can put the ball in the net on a consistent basis but only if we put it on a plate for him. He doesn't seem to have the game intelligence or the mobility to fit with how we play so it is hurting us both ways. I think he is faster than he shows but it is up to him to make the improvements in his overall game to make a difference.

My patience with Lallana has also worn thin after yesterday. I know many have been against him for a long time, and I do still like him as a player but there has to be a point where you start producing an end product. Yesterdays miss was massive - in these kinds of matches, you don't get many clear cut chances to score and you just have to take them when they come. It was such a great pass from Lucas it deserved a goal. For once De Gea actually made it slightly easier to score but Lallana lacked the composure (and maybe the raw desire) to get the ball into the net. By the time it came to Firmino the chance was 10 times tougher. I don't expect Lallana to score every match but his output is down on last year (let alone with Soton).

Milner's was also a great position where he should've done a lot better, he decided against taking it first time but why did he then think that the van Basten angle was easier? Hendo was there for the cut back. This comes down to decision making (and composure of course). Throughout the game (and season) our midfielders/attackers have chosen the wrong option. Only Can really worked De Gea.

I've think enough has been said about Mig in the last 2 days so no point going over it, but basically barring a dramatic improvement in the next few months, he has to be replaced if we want to improve as a side. Apart from that one blemish our defence was fantastic, Sakho looking more like the player we know he is but we just can't have a situation that every defensive lapse ends up as a goal. Klopp has to make the goalkeeper the priority, this is what Rafa did and it paid dividends.

It looks like top 4 is gone as there are not too many chances to pull the points back now, especially since we cannot shake the deficiencies in the team and bad results are going keep happening every so often. Let's go win the league cup and the EL and make the CL that way.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 01:20:33 pm »
The game, and the corner was discussed tactically by Carra and our former boss Brendan Rodgers on Monday Night Football. Quite interesting...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3n4dnd_mnf-liverpool-vs-united-set-pieces_sport
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 04:43:05 pm »
Good points so far. One question I had was what was the thinking around putting Ibe on the left and not against Utd's young left back?

Offline thejbs

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 05:51:00 pm »
The game, and the corner was discussed tactically by Carra and our former boss Brendan Rodgers on Monday Night Football. Quite interesting...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3n4dnd_mnf-liverpool-vs-united-set-pieces_sport

Respect to Rodgers, he could make a decent pundit.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 06:07:02 pm »
Respect to Rodgers, he could make a decent pundit.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 06:15:35 pm »
Respect to Rodgers, he could make a decent pundit.
Hate to rain on your parade, but the faults he highlighted were there when he was!
Distancing himself from the decisions to buy the players is him rewriting history. True, some players were foisted on him, but he would still be in charge, if he had built a system around what he had.
May be your right this is his level, talking a good game.

Offline gregorio

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 07:38:36 pm »
We have a built in inferiority complex against United on and off the pitch. The Utd team that played at Anfield on Sunday was their poorest team in living memory......and we lost!

I only saw that attitude after they scored , thought we looked beaten once their goal went in but before this we were confident if frustrated.

It's all very simple and yet so complicated , we need a goalscorer
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 07:41:54 pm »
I only saw that attitude after they scored , thought we looked beaten once their goal went in but before this we were confident if frustrated.

It's all very simple and yet so complicated , we need a goalscorer
This has been the problem for 2 seasons, its very rare now we pull it back after having the majority of the play only to be sucker punched.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2016, 02:25:26 am »
Good points so far. One question I had was what was the thinking around putting Ibe on the left and not against Utd's young left back?

The times Iīve seen Darmain struggle has always been against people with pace. Whereas Borsterwick-Johnson III is one of the faster full backs around.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2016, 03:03:27 am »


Why is there four defenders on Fellaini here?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:13:35 am by Gerrard#1 »
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Offline McrRed

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2016, 03:58:29 am »
I see the four defenders on fellaini as a kind of positive. They were there because they all thought they could do something about the situation. If the ball glances off the crossbar we all congratulate them on making it difficult for fellaini to get a header on target. As it happens, well, you know...

More important for me is communication and concentration. We'd worked hard all game to stop crosses then they catch us out with a change in routine. That's about concentration.  Leaving their main goal threat - who hadn't scored against us since the seventies  - alone unmarked just outside the six yard box is both concentration and communication.

I'm also interested in how workload affects concentration. I remember my old squash coach telling me to stop trying to win points. You wear your opponent down, he said. Then they make mistakes. Is this happening to us with our increased output? And what's Mignolet's excuse for his recent poor form?

The greatest thing for me about 2013-14 was that everytime we conceded a corner I knew we would score the other end. The sense of confidence I had watching was a joy for the sheets lack of nerves as the other team would realise that we were on another lightning fast counterattack! Now we're suffering the yin to that yang. We concede from corners. We concede from a team's first meaningful attack. Match after match. Even when we're otherwise playing well. Sunday was another instance.

Will klopp get the fitness levels up to the required levels? Will he train the players and improve understanding of patterns of play and communication about the exceptions? Will he replace certain cogs in a faulty machine?

However he does it, he WILL do it. There's some mighty good things waiting round the corner for us Reds. Believe.

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2016, 09:23:30 am »
I think speaking generally about the season, what is frustrating is that this season, if we were able to string together a number of wins, we would walk this league. Its an opportunity that has been squandered by us, and perhaps everyone else, and i think with each loss, this thought gets enforced even more... I agree with the thoughts that the Manc team that turned up was the worst that i have seen arrive for a while, and that's saying something when we've faced up to a David Moyes Manc side...

They were there for the taking, and i would even go as far as to say that if they had conceded then i think they would have folded... but we at the moment are like the big bad wolf trying to blow down the little piggy who is in a brick house... we huff, we puff but we ultimately fall short and in comparision, our defending of set pieces, we are the little piggy but in a house of straw. We are so fragile and it shows. Even when we conceded the goal, we had an air of acceptance about it.

Rooney's goal, i can't lay the blame at Mignolet, Rooney has done what a good striker would do when in that situation, put his foot right through the ball and rifle it into the top of the goal. I doubt any keeper would have saved that, and no point in saying that the defending to make sure players like Rooney don't get that chance but it seems futile.

I personally think that Klopp needs to have a chance to get the players onto the training pitch and start working on some more of his ideas because as he has said, all he's been able to do with them is recovery work, or wrap them up in cotton wool

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 10:19:45 am »
"I can't believe we lost that match"
That seems to be one of the most common things I have said to myself over the last few years, where we have lost so so many games where we have been the better team. That and "yet another set piece goal against and yet we offer nothing from set pieces"
Perhaps the stats done back the second on up, or maybe they do.
You can say we were unlucky until you are blue in the face, or their goalkeeper was man of the match, its true of course, but it seems to be an all too regular occurrence.
I want to see clinical, ruthless players in our side who will rip inferior teams apart with no mercy. And Klopp will be the man who brings that to this team I'm sure of that.
As for the game, as always there are goods and bads. Moreno really impresses me. Him and Clyne are excellent as full backs, but I fear they do struggle aerially at times.
The position that really worries me is the attacking midfielder area, where we just don't see enough goals from whoever plays there.
Bloody United, they are so bad yet they are still "up there". Why ?  Because they have a big game player called Wayne Rooney.
Of course, we don't like Rooney, but when they are under P he seems to find something to pull his team through a sticky period, he's done it time and time again when they have been poor, he'll pop up with a few winners to save their bacon.
Them doing the double over us hurts like f**k - again

Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2016, 10:58:05 am »
I think speaking generally about the season, what is frustrating is that this season, if we were able to string together a number of wins, we would walk this league.

If we had the confidence and the firepower of this time two years ago, they might as well start engraving our name on the trophy. It's been simultaneously the most exciting yet poorest quality league I've seen in a long, long time. Even with the money spent by the likes of City, Chelsea, the Mancs, you have Leicester City - a team that was bottom a year ago - sat at top end of the league. Watford, West Ham, Palace, all had a decent start and have been taking points off the so-called big guns. You take someone like Vincent Kompany out of City and suddenly they become very, very average indeed at the back. I don't know where to begin with Chelsea...

The reason I mention this in this particular thread is the trajectories ourselves and the Mancs are on. It's fairly clear that Ferguson was the reason they won so many titles so consistently - I mean, they won the league in '09 with Federico fucking Macheda up front! While they did do a smash a grab on us this time around, I don't think they'll be so lucky next time. Their managerial situation is turbulent, they have a very poor squad given the money ploughed into it, and the talent they do have is ageing. Will the Glazer's sanction yet another round of massive spending, just to consolidate finishing somewhere between 3rd and 6th? They want to see themselves as the biggest club in the world, who can attract the best players, etc etc. But just who are the best players in the world, and would they want to come to the Premier League?

Personally I think the days of the very best in world talent - your Henry's, Suarez's, Ronaldo's - coming to the Premier League in their peak are over. Ok there might be big names coming in like Schweinsteiger, but generally they have already peaked. For talent such as Martial, they've had to pay way in excess of what the lad is actually worth at this point in his career. So we're in a situation where all the clubs are levelling out in terms of quality - the telly money is making sure that even teams that were traditionally more agricultural in their manner such as Stoke can now get a player like Shaquiri. This is where the manager comes in. I'll say right now, we've got the best one in the league, and by a fucking stretch.

Which brings me back to trajectory. We're almost treading water at the moment, blowing hot and cold, and where we are in the league is probably just about right given the squad we have available, their individual stages of development and the influence that the manager has been able to have in such a short period of time. Klopp is bound to make a wrong call here and there, but we must remember that he isn't Jesus Christ. He's still very much sussing out what he's inherited. Fans like myself become total whoppers in the post match when things have gone wrong - especially against that fucking lot - but we need to consider a broader view. We can relax for the rest of this season, enjoy a decent cup run and maybe even a final or two, and pretty much forget anything to do with the league. A cup win will get us European footy next year, so we'll be able to get talent. It might not be your Suarez's or your Ronaldo's - like I mentioned earlier, I think most PL clubs will struggle to attract them this window and again in the summer - but it'll be the players that Klopp sees working in his team. His team, the one that will emerge from a proper pre-season, where he can embed his ideas, his tactics, his belief. His first two seasons at Dortmund saw them finish 7th then 5th. He won the title the following year. We should exercise similar patience, because Jurgen is here for the long term and I'm convinced that he will oversee our rise to the top of the English game again.

While teams like United and Chelsea will continue to chase fading stars, we will be creating them.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 11:30:30 am »


Why is there four defenders on Fellaini here?

What the shitting buggery!

I have not been able to bring myself to re-watch the goal, but that still is ridiculous.
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Offline redk84

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 12:43:53 pm »
I've felt like this before about a Liverpool team....and it was under Kenny's 2nd spell in charge

I think we play some good stuff (especially in areas of the pitch apart from both boxes!!)....I can see that the lads are trying and the issues are plain to see, (equally hard to pinpoint a solution other than practice makes perfect??) but I'm just waiting for it all to work out really! I do trust the man in charge to make whatever tweaks needed to see a change for the better. It is the right man for the job. So we wait...it was always gonna be a tricky league campaign

One thing that has changed is that we definitely are creating better chances. Maybe not the type of clear cut ones that should produce goals but it is a marked improvement from say a month ago..

We just seem to snatch at these chances when we work ourselves into good areas. Or make the wrong decision...a lack of nouse and footballing brains costs us at both ends of the pitch and it did again on the weekend. 4 players charging towards Fellaini with Rooney left unmarked yards away from our goal? Just lacks any sort of sense. Goalkeeper on his knees...why?
Where's the communication?
Where's the thinking?

Under Klopp...these lads should know that they are playing for their Liverpool careers...but I don't think there is anyone not trying.
I'm not a coach so I don't know how you would train composure into a player.....it's not just a physical thing it's mental and a combination of the two within any given match scenario. So maybe the huge amount of games helps these players but not if they keep on making the same mistakes. We need to see more from them doing the right things getting out of sticky situations and maybe the cups will provide the sort of sense of accomplishment that will make changes to this team.

It's a long road but we have been unlucky with injuries and the like, we still play well and we have our issues but who doesn't this season? we'll just keep going
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2016, 04:16:06 pm »
Rodgers discussing defending corners is like Donald Trump discussing immigration - laughable.

Depends which way they're going, pretty sure we scored more from corners and freekicks in 13/14 than any other season in recent memory.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2016, 04:41:51 pm »
Depends which way they're going, pretty sure we scored more from corners and freekicks in 13/14 than any other season in recent memory.

We were shit the following year under him though, weren't we!

Shit this season to!

We did a lot of things that season that we hadn't done for ages/ever, or since.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 04:43:28 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline stoj

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2016, 05:10:20 pm »
I think speaking generally about the season, what is frustrating is that this season, if we were able to string together a number of wins, we would walk this league. Its an opportunity that has been squandered by us, and perhaps everyone else, and i think with each loss, this thought gets enforced even more... I agree with the thoughts that the Manc team that turned up was the worst that i have seen arrive for a while, and that's saying something when we've faced up to a David Moyes Manc side...

They were there for the taking, and i would even go as far as to say that if they had conceded then i think they would have folded... but we at the moment are like the big bad wolf trying to blow down the little piggy who is in a brick house... we huff, we puff but we ultimately fall short and in comparision, our defending of set pieces, we are the little piggy but in a house of straw. We are so fragile and it shows. Even when we conceded the goal, we had an air of acceptance about it.

Rooney's goal, i can't lay the blame at Mignolet, Rooney has done what a good striker would do when in that situation, put his foot right through the ball and rifle it into the top of the goal. I doubt any keeper would have saved that, and no point in saying that the defending to make sure players like Rooney don't get that chance but it seems futile.

I personally think that Klopp needs to have a chance to get the players onto the training pitch and start working on some more of his ideas because as he has said, all he's been able to do with them is recovery work, or wrap them up in cotton wool

I agree with this, especially the bold (Great analogy btw). For most of the time, we do not seem to use our heads and think when we attack. It all seems rather rushed and hopeful. Creating gilt edge chances and scoring goals is a massive problem for this team, especially from our more attacking options right now and its highlighting our continued frailties at the back. The injuries are having a major impact on us so i dont think we can be too harsh on some of the results but yes, this fucker hurt like hell.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 05:12:21 pm by stoj »

Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2016, 08:52:58 pm »
The result doesn't bother me in the slightest......oh I would have loved the win but I'm looking at the long term project.

We bossed the game. Utd were shit. They know how lucky they were and on a one-off game they walked away delighted.

However look closely at the style of play. We had lots of possession and couldn't buy a goal.

They huffed and puffed and did nothing. At half time they were fighting among themselves in the dressing room as they knew they weren't in the game.

They had two players who won them that game but when De Gea goes they will be a mid-table team.

We on the other hand are going the other way and once Klopp gets the team he is after then we will look down the table at Utd.

So just suck up the result and smirk in the knowledge that we have the right manager who will take us places.

Have faith and wait for the sweet day when we knock 5 past them.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 0 Manchester Utd 1
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2016, 10:09:19 am »