Author Topic: Round Table - Liverpool 0-1 Fulham - dead rubber or cause to blubber?  (Read 20275 times)

royhendo

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Didn't see the game as I was playing, but respected commentators indicate it was garbage. Kenny indicated it was garbage.

So do we draw any conclusions from it? Broadly 2nd string side, Kuyt and a few others' farewell, Final round the corner...?

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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It was garbage.

What can we infer from it?  Well...  we can have a fair stab at the cup final side.  No Shelvey. No Kuyt.
No Carroll?

We can infer that a lot of the players out there, despite the rhetoric, knew that they were not going to be in the final side.  We can infer that a number of those players will not he here next season.  We can perhaps infer that some of our youngsters are perhaps not as good as we would like to think.  We can infer that the squad still looks rather threadbare.

However, they are discussions for the summer.  For now, no suspensions, no injuries, most of the starting XI rested.  Those are the key things.
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Offline the 92A

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A 'dead rubber'.  Showing my age but not an expression that I was familar with until recently and as far as football goes it shouldn't be heard that often. I agree that we can't infer too much from last night but I've got to be honest and say while I will put the defeat in context, I'm not happy with it. Dalglish rarely criticises the players in public but you can tell he doesn't understand it either. The only 'dead rubbers' he knew was the games when we'd wrapped the Leauge up in April with several games to go.
 
The fact that so many of squad players thought it was a 'dead rubber' is worrying, here was a chance to stake your claim for a Cup final place, here was a chance to play unhindered by the pressure that so many of our squad seem prone to, here was a chance to pull some points back on Everton, here was a chance to remind Fulham that they never win at Anfield, here was a chance to show some pride in front of people who pay their hard earned cash to watch you play and for many of the team this was not enough to inspire them to fight for the shirt.
 
Those that judge Liverpool  in absolutes this year no little about building football teams, the schizophrenia in the match thread is embarrassing but no matter how much you put this match in context, no matter how much you can understand why it happened, it still leaves a bad taste that some of our little millionaires couldn't be arsed putting a shift in for whatever reason.
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Offline Vulmea

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Fulham started ok , got lucky with the goal but after that they had the look and feel of a side expecting to get beat.

The crowd were poor they had the look and feel of a crowd expecting to be entertained.

We were, whats the word I'm looking for, well I'm not sure 'we' were anything - it seemed like a random collection of players with no real understanding of the opposition, the crowd, the club or each other.

We had a decent spell at the end of the first half when we did inject a bit of pace and created a few chances but rather than carry that on second half, we fell back into just launching it forward often to the pace of Kuyt rather than the head of Carroll, go figure.  Fulham created the better chances. Doni made a couple of excellent stops.

It didn't even have the feel of a pre-season friendly, the pace of the game was so incredibly slow. It had the feel of end of season reserve fixture.

So many individual mistakes, so many inexplicably bad passes. How many times was the ball played to where a player could be rather than where they were?

the good bits.....

Sterling did very well when he came on, the quality of his crossing was suprisingly good. Doni had no chance for the goal and did very well apart from that.  Skrtel was aggressive and dominant in the air. Aurelio was composed and got forward well in the first half. Carrol tried.  Shelvey played one superb cross field pass......that was about it I think

worrying bits

Think Kenny was right to be very disapointed if he cant get that group of players motivated to give better than that. It was the same issue with a different side against Bolton ahead of a cup game. Same issue in last 15 minutes in several games this season - there has been a distinct lack of fight in the league this season and I can't really get my head around why.

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Offline Yorkykopite

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I hate the idea of a 'dead rubber' too. I presume the supporters paid with 'dead money' last night did they? I know teams switch off when there's nothing at stake at the end of the season. I remember 1983-84 when we lost 5 and drew 2 of our last 7. I saw the majority of those and it was awful. No one was trying, not even Kenny.

The difference was we'd wrapped up the League Title by the first week of April.

Last night players weren't playing for the Cup Final necessarily. They were playing for their Liverpool careers. Hardly anyone said 'Keep me Kenny. Play me next season'.

Kuyt and Maxi are probably going so we can excuse them. And, to be fair to Kuyt, he turned in the kind of performance that he's been turning in for years. Bewilderingly for him it's no longer deemed good enough. But Downing's half-arsed effort was less excusable as was dozy Henderson's. At right back Kelly looked apathetic and a universe away from Glen Johnson in terms of skill and panache. And up front, Andy Carroll was cruelly showcased again as One-Dimensional Man.

It was cruel because we were all still basking in Luis Suarez's interpretation of that role. Carroll actually received some decent ball on the ground last night - or at least the kind of ball that No. 7 would suddenly fill with gunpowder. But no. 9 is ponderous and slow-witted. He'd rather be challenging for flighted crosses than dealing with the ball on the deck. The problem is, so would most central defenders. I don't know what's going to happen with him next season. The odd spectacular headed goal or stunning left shot (when the ball is placed 'just so' in a really nice sweet spot for him to hit without breaking stride) are not enough to compensate for his exclusively reactive movement, his severe one-footedness and his confusion when things are happening quickly. I so wanted him to be John Toshack. But he turns out to be Alan Waddle.

Spearing, it's best not to go into. I've said my piece about him in his own dedicated thread. And actually 'dedicated' is the best thing you can say about him. He cares. He's also blessed with a running style which tells you he cares. It's slow and ineffective but filled with passion because the elbows move like pistons. Some fans love that. Kuyt has been buoyed by the same thing for season after season. I hope Spearing doesn't last that long.

Did anyone play themselves into the Cup Final team? Sadly, Shelvey played himself out. I thought he was trying too hard to look good. One sublime pass out to Kuyt in the first half was followed by some irresponsible dribbles and outright desertion of his post. The whole performance collapsed to the point where his last touch was a free kick that landed in some fat fryer on Walton Breck Road. Probably the bench for him then.

Coates was decent enough I thought until the end when he took Steve Clarke's bellows of 'welly it!' seriously and started hoiking Carragher-esque balls to absolutely no one, much to the derision of the Kop.

The only player who did do enough to put himself on to the bench was Raheem Sterling. It would be a brilliant move if Kenny put him there on Saturday. Apart from anything else he could turn round to the failures and say 'I told you. Places were up for grabs. This is the only lad who took me seriously'.   
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Offline Gnurglan

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We were poor, but in this case I can forgive the players and management. This was a team that we just put together for a single game. The large majority already knew they won't play in the Final. Maybe, just maybe a hattrick could have given a player a chance to get called up, but it would have taken something very special.
So with a newly made up team and with no real prospect of playing in the Final, we got what we could expect. I don't want to fault anyone for it. We have a game vs Chelsea which will make this season a success, or a very disappointing one. That's the game that matters.

I could say a lot of things about the team that played and the performances we saw vs Fulham (and others). Because although the situation was rather unique, I don't think our performance was. We have seen this kind of stuff before. There are things we need to address. Quite a few things. Because, again with the special situation of the Final being an excuse for this game, we still fielded some very experienced and very expensive players. And what did we see?

I can only hope that we get to review the season and our future with an extra FA Cup in the trophy cabinet. Would be so much better for everyone at the club.

        * * * * * *


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Offline Gnurglan

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There is no such thing as a dead rubber - especially in the league. All games are important and are there to be won. Are the players to be blamed for this exclusively? The players took their cue from the manager. He fielded a team made up of fringe players almost exclusively and such a tactic is virtually telling the players and the other side that this game is not important to Liverpool FC.

If you see this game as 90 minutes to get our backup players some game time, just before the Final, then I think we can see some reason in it. We have now had almost every single first team squad player on the pitch, in a competitive game, just before the Final. Everyone is prepared if they get to play a part this weekend. Almost every single player is fit to play. We couldn't ask for much more in terms of preparation.

That's how I prefer to view it.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Fat Scouser

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I feel asleep watching it on tv last night. I never made it through the first half. The one thing I can say, it wasn't the usual groundhog day feeling. We didn't even batter away at them for 20 minutes or so, before reverting to type. I know it's a second string, but it's frightening to start thinking of what depth we've got. But other than that, I don't think I can comment. I just hope the whole attmosphere and attitude is different when senior players come back at the weekend.
In fact, I reckon we'll have a fair crack at it at the weekend. Getting up for the big game's is becoming a rather horrible habit.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Well, I want to reiterate some of the points made yesterday, but to frame my post I want to re-post something from Il Capitaino that got lost in the lock of the Match day thread. It's long, but very important I feel. It starts below, I'm italicizing it;

"A modest net spend? We have never before spent the kind of money we spent last year. Never. Not one single manager in our history has ever had access to that kind of money.

It really is irrelevant about the turmoil the club was in, approaching two years ago now. That's gone, it's in the past. It's got nothing to do with the players on the pitch now: it looks to me like a complete excuse for failure, for not putting in the required performances in EVERY match (no matter how 'irrelevant'). The club and the fans have to stop scraping around for excuses, and face up to the actual problems we have:

- Our football is a malaise of different styles. There's no clear idea from the players. We don't press the ball, we actively back off opponents and allow them space to operate in: no successful team in history has ever defended like that. The players seem to have the mandate of either playing the ball wide to cross (unsuccessfully, every single time) into Carroll, or giving the ball to either Suarez or Gerrard and expecting something to happen. There is apparently creative 'freedom' on the pitch, yet the players seem lost and unsure of themselves. We've scored four or five goals from corners all season, out of hundreds and hundreds of attempts: do we even practice them? What do the players practice in training? Do they pass and move around the pitch, working openings? Do they understand the concept of movement, within a system of play? Why do they hit the ball long in matches, when it is painfully clear that this way of playing has not worked for us at all for the entirety of the season?

- We don't play players on form. All season, our most successful lineup of Maxi and Bellamy wide has been the management's second choice, despite these two working in tandem with Suarez brilliantly on the pitch together. Why is that exactly? Why persist with Downing, who has done practically nothing all season, or persist with playing Henderson out of position, when it is even more painfully clear that he is awful there? Is it to bed these players in? Why would persisting with the same system produce different results? Is it a question of confidence - and why would their confidence improve, if the onus is on them to produce in a failing system? Why is Carragher still in the team frequently over Coates, when he has single-handedly cost the club points in nigh on every league match he has played this season?

- The club's transfer dealings are awful. Why are we pursuing a policy of buying mentally, technically and physically flawed British players at extortionate rates? Is this to put together the crux of a squad - and why concentrate on the British nationality, when other foreign players have shown an equal level of commitment to the club over the years (Hamann, Reina, Hyypia, Alonso, etc.) and willingness to play for the shirt and invest in the values of the club? Why are our scouts not doing their jobs properly and finding affordable, undervalued talent? Why do we persist with purchasing players that don't fit with the brand of football we try to play? Is it even considered? Why are we placing a bigger emphasis on subjective, meaningless player statistics like chances converted when making decisions, when these clearly do not take into account the value of those chances in a match, and the compatibility with other players?"


I want to use this (lengthy) post as a starting point as I feel it gets to the nub of the criticisms that were expressed in heated debate last night. The game itself was awful, a team of youngsters, demoralised seniors (realising their cup dream was probably not going to happen) and peripherals were thrown together and put out on the pitch. The message was all wrong, 'this game doesn't matter, this team is makeshift'. So, a difficult starting point, but on the flipside an opportunity for the younger players to show what they could do (Sterling did) and the questionables to make a case for a cup start (Carroll did, Shelvey in bursts). What we ended up with was a slow, pedestrian side being over run in the middle of the park, giving up frequent chances and only occasionally (through accident rather than design) making something like a half chance, before the awful final minutes and clear capitulation. If one moment neatly encapsulated the entire performance it was Shelvey, demanding he take a freekick, confidently beating his chest before launching the ball into the stratosphere...

So, 1-0 and in the aftermath an angry reaction on the in game thread, which in response generated a counter-reaction. These two opposing camps held two differing views of the game; on the one hand were those who dismissed this as a singular event, something that could be readily dismissed in the context of the impending FA cup final. In opposition to that were those who saw it as part of a long running continuity, yet another game that demonstrated the club and the team were on the wrong track, not the right one and this game, rather than something easily dismissed, was an example of all that is wrong and is going wrong with the club. Both camps then engaged in a series of arguments that could never be resolved simply because both sides see the season in totally different ways. Those who play up the Cup Finals as proof of progress appear result orientated and believe that winning silverware is evidence that the club is going in the right direction. Those who are more performance orientated emphasise failings on and off the pitch and point to key games as proof of this.

This is why I posted Il Capitaino's post above, because I feel it captures the concerns of the latter group (of which I, myself, am to an extent a part of). The game yesterday was deeply worrying, not just because the team lost, not just because some players didn't give their all, but because the standards on display were substandard and the style in which the team approached the game was too direct and surrendered possession too easily. Returning to the quoted post above, I feel Il Capitaino nails it, quite brilliantly, in this piece;

"Our football is a malaise of different styles. There's no clear idea from the players. We don't press the ball, we actively back off opponents and allow them space to operate in: no successful team in history has ever defended like that. The players seem to have the mandate of either playing the ball wide to cross (unsuccessfully, every single time) into Carroll, or giving the ball to either Suarez or Gerrard and expecting something to happen"

That is how the team have played for a lot of the season and how they played again last night. In the absence of Gerrard and Suarez we defaulted to indifferent crosses and used Carroll as a battering ram, expecting him to win against 4 players up front, single handedly. Its not a simple case of getting bodies in the box, our approach, our style, our long-ball, attacking from deep is just not good enough.

Importantly too we once again saw key players on whom a lot of money was spent, who were brought in to be the cornerstone of the new project, woefully under-performing. Henderson started, did little and was replaced by Downing. He picked up the ball immediately, ran at a static defender and rather than try and beat him, tried to chip it over him... BAM, hit the non-moving player square in the head, the ball bounces back to him, he tries again... BAM hits another (non-moving) player in the head, move breaks down. It was astonishingly poor and summed up his performance on the night. Eventually he was eclipsed by a 17 year old Sterling who beat men and crossed accurately.  In fact, only one player to date can be seen as an unqualified success and that is Suarez. To a lesser extent Enrique has also done well, though his form has hit a trough lately. A lot of expensively purchased players have not made the required either a season or a season and a half in and very little evidence has been offered to date to suggest they will make the step up.

Personally I am worried, cup final or no cup final, the style, the performances, the direction the transfers, the new players mentalities... all seem suspect to me. But of course, opposed to this is the success in the cups, which is held up as a reason the season is not a total write off. I agree, silverware and the chance at more is important. But I believe these cup runs need to be qualified. I believe there is a marked difference between a team consistently on the up, improving season on season, going on good cup runs and winning silverware, and a team that has his the doldrums in the league and Europe, appears to be going backwards in fact, going on a cup run. The former heralds the arrival of a new force on the footballing landscape... the latter is far less impressive and could be argued only serves to paper over cracks. I was interested in VWMs comment that silverware defines seasons. That is true, but that is individual seasons, in the longer term you have to look beyond such solitary measures.
« Last Edit: May 2, 2012, 12:46:44 pm by DonkeyWan »
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Benimar Col

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it was worse than garbage,  lets be honest now,   this was 90% of our second string players,  Doni made some goal preventing saves last night and was my one of two players who were decent, Carroll being the other getting stuck in.

Spearing, Shelvey, Henderson and Maxi where just clueless last night, absolutely woeful.  Kuyt was poor also,  ive seen more passion in our street playing 3 and in.

lost for words is fair comment, not fit to wear the shirt comes to mind,  most on high £k per week wage earners

we are a sorry state of affairs when it comes to the squad players


Offline macca888

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I'm loath to criticise individual performances, but I'll base what I say on Kenny's premise that this match was akin to handing in a CV for a job. Well I don't think Wee Jay handed in a decent CV last night. He just couldn't seem to pass all night and his positional sense in almost every aspect was poor. He seemed to spend most of his evening tracking their midfield from behind leading to a number of silly fouls that were only made because he had lost them and let them play around him in the first place. Defending high up the pitch is admirable at times, but not for a defensive midfielder who is getting a bit overrun. He left a lot of space in behind him between himself and Coates/Skrtel. The thing is though, he didn't seem to have the game intelligence to realise what was happening and think about dropping back a bit. We very nearly got embarrassed by it, if it hadn't been for Doni.

And to be really unfair, I'm fucking sick of his gesticulating with his arms every two seconds. Jay, play the fucking ball rather than pointing at it with both arms and giving the opposition the chance to see where you're going to pass it. And then understand that other players will see you when you're in space to receive it. Just because you're a fucking midget, the red shirt sort of gives it away. If yoru team mates can see you, they know you're in space because Shaun Wright Phillips is probably the only player who you can stand behind and they can still see you. I'm a bit gutted for him to be honest because he generally gives it all and has done quite well, but I think he was overawed knowing that he so badly wants to play on Saturday and needed to perform well. I have to admit that I'm slightly concerned as to what our midfield will be on Saturday, because I don't think any of them covered themselves in glory last night, and I'm not which of the three will make it to the next stage of interviews. Still, we're going to twat these disrespectful, classless, plastic flag waving, rent boy, no history, EBJT cock sucking twats!


Jay Spearing Calling For The Ball


« Last Edit: May 2, 2012, 12:44:05 pm by macca888 »
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Offline hollger

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If you see this game as 90 minutes to get our backup players some game time, just before the Final, then I think we can see some reason in it.

This is what I hoped would happen before the game - rest the key players for the cup, let some of the youngsters and fringe players have a go. After all, you'd think they'd be delighted for a game and hungry to impress, right? I reckon that was Kenny's line of thinking - a mixture of player protection and heavy squad rotation. A gamble sure, with a lot of players sure to be rusty which is why Henderson, Skrtel, Kelly, Kuyt and Carroll started to ensure some familiarity amongst the team. However they failed to gel spectacularly bar a few moments before the interval and looked like a collection of lost individuals.

Massively disappointing and you could see from Kenny's post-game interview that he wasn't happy in the slightest. He was let down, the Club was let down and the fans were let down by players either just coasting towards the end of the season where they'll move on (Kuyt, Maxi, Aurelio?) or not really interested as they knew they weren't going to be playing on Saturday (bar Skrtel and probably Henderson).

Some positives - Carroll tried to be involved and is looking a better footballer as his pitch time increases; we didn't pick up any injuries or suspensions and we weren't beaten by more goals. The negatives far outweigh the positives but I'm hoping it was a one-off and there isn't a hangover that carries into Saturday.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Played OK at times. Fulham looked half arsed too. Bizarre goal. Even stranger penno not given. One or two near-final apparances and good work rate from Andy and the young lad when he came on. Coates looked assured most of the time and nice to see Coates given a go. Aurelio did well with some crosses. Nice to see Kelly again. Keeper did pretty well on the few times he was called into action - unlucky with the goal. Didn't really go for Kuyt.

No one I went to the game with and saw after were much bothered. All the talk was on meeting up for the final and pre and post match London drinkies. A typical nothing May doesn't-really-matter game like we've seen loads of times before when we're not really in a position to do much.

Onwards and upwards. Glad Kenny rested loads - was worried we'd go gung ho and end up with injuries and suspensions. But we've given ourselves a chance on the weekend now.
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Offline jimmyjr86

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Gutless performance really. The players who started knew they were never going to start Saturday and it showed. Everyone, fans included, are looking towards saturday.

Funny thing is all this talk of playing yourself into the team for Saturday. The only two players who imo did this was Aurelio and Sterling. Both won't be on the bench come saturday. Go figure.

Offline jsl2000

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Played OK at times. Fulham looked half arsed too. Bizarre goal. Even stranger penno not given. One or two near-final apparances and good work rate from Andy and the young lad when he came on. Coates looked assured most of the time and nice to see Coates given a go. Aurelio did well with some crosses. Nice to see Kelly again. Keeper did pretty well on the few times he was called into action - unlucky with the goal. Didn't really go for Kuyt.

No one I went to the game with and saw after were much bothered. All the talk was on meeting up for the final and pre and post match London drinkies. A typical nothing May doesn't-really-matter game like we've seen loads of times before when we're not really in a position to do much.

Onwards and upwards. Glad Kenny rested loads - was worried we'd go gung ho and end up with injuries and suspensions. But we've given ourselves a chance on the weekend now.

Thankyou, at least someone here can give a balanced view.

Offline stevied

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When we win the Cup on Saturday evening it will all be forgotten, poor performance but not real sure what people expected, i get the no passion whinge but i am sure a number of the players picked last night are aware that their days are numbered and they wont be at the club next year, how they can be motivated i am not sure. Kenny obviously from his post match comments has had a go within the dressing room but i am not sure how many of that squad last night will be sat in kit on Saturday, i did feel for Sterling a bit, gets a run out in a game where everything was flat, i would make a spot for him on every bench now, if he doesnt play he gets the taste for it and when he does come on he is so quick he will trouble a few teams and his end product is generally good
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Offline Jason_King

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Gutless performance really. The players who started knew they were never going to start Saturday and it showed. Everyone, fans included, are looking towards saturday.

Funny thing is all this talk of playing yourself into the team for Saturday. The only two players who imo did this was Aurelio and Sterling. Both won't be on the bench come saturday. Go figure.

Skrtel?  And as for Spearing/Shelvey/Henderson, if they dont start, who do we start?! Gerrard and who else?

I really fucking fear for our midfield on Saturday, Chelsea are right up for it and can we just turn it on and off like a tap? I swear to god I would put Sterling in before Downing on Saturday.
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Of the starters, Carroll, Skrtel, Coates, Doni were solid.  Sterling looked great when he came on, as indicated by the fact he delivered more crosses into dangerous areas than the rest of the players combined and he was only on for 15 mins.

I hate the term dead-rubber.  Shocking viewpoint and one that our players should never have (unless, as someone else said, we've won the league already!!)

Offline Fat Scouser

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Too many people summising league form won't count and, or, will be forgotten if we beat Chelsea. That was probably a problem with the team last night, an all. I'm sure it won't be forgotten or discounted no matter what happens at Wembley.
And you know what... that's right. Far too much of this season has been unacceptable but loads of people just want to gloss over it because Kenny's in the seat. That's not right. And don't start, with the back Kenny malarkey. I'm not calling for the lad's head, but the fact is... this LFC and 5 wins at Anfield is just not acceptable no matter who's in charge.

I'm the first to say, we're in transition. We need a little patience, but this season shouldn't be just brushed under the carpet, no matter what happens at Wembley. There must be a post mortum. People must be questioned and answers must be found. We can't just accept this and hope it goes away. When we start doing that, we're finished. I've more or less gave up meself, but I'm talking about the club and keeping it at the top or thereabouts. It's not going to be easy. We have to look at the causes of this horrendous season and start to put them right. And that goes for Kenny on down. It's their job.
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Offline Guz-kop

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Got no complaints with the team we put out, thought it was fair enough to rest so many players. And also think we played ok at times in the first half but after the break we just had nothing. No fight, no pace, no balls, nothing. Just lumped a few aimless balls into the box and did our best to help Fulham score a second. It was totally dispiriting.

It's just sad that our league season ended when we lost to Arsenal. Given how Spurs have capitulated since then if we'd just kept our heads and had an ounce more quality we could be right up there. Instead we've been losing and throwing away good chances/positions against teams below us with far less talent. We may be a mediocre side in terms of challenging for the league but we should've put more of a fight for 4th after we lost to Arsenal. It's depressing thinking about how much we've fallen since that game, which was probably our best performce of the season. Seems like everyone was deflated and has just given up.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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played like the disjointed team of strangers they were, you know that pundit for Sky got two things spot on,

 you cannot expect a team cobbled together for a one off game to play like a fluid team at all, it takes time to gel any  team and to expect a good performance from a makeshift team designed to avoid any cards or injuries to the guys who will be gracing the Wembley turf is perhaps a hard ask.

He also said Andy was winning most things in the air but the rest of the team did not gamble on him doing so and he constantly had nobody within 5 yards of him, this has happend all season so we either use him and the players sign up for that or we get rid, he did his job the others did not.
That said although it was a meaningless game it was painful to watch and any supporter wants to win but in the context of what matters perhaps it was a result on the cards from the selections made by Kenny.

Individual highlights Doni looks a good stopper not sure i like keepers with short sleeve shirts he will get frostbite at Stoke.

Kelly probably the worst game he has played in our shirts woeful describes it but he is young coming back from another injury so maybe allowable.
Coates solid if at times a little off the pace,
Skrtel so unlucky but again solid for most part although done for pace once or twice  was he missing Agger?

Aurelio love this guy on the ball if we could clone his attacking prowess with Enrique's defensive solidity we would have one hell of a player, but for Aurelio possibly last gam ein our shirts I will miss him.

Henderson not good at all tries to force it when things are going wrong needs to relax but he will come good next season.
Shelvey again clone him with Henderson what a player jonjo tries to be better than he currently is, however the pass out wide to Dirk i think was the best of the night. Never let him take another free kick and why did senior players allow him to so late in the game?

Dirk workmanlike  average seen better seen a lot worse, Maxi terrible game he should have lifted the players around him but for me stank the place out, Andy as above did his job tailed off a bit late in the game!
Downing does he want to be here? His play this season tells me he has no confidence maybe we are too big a club for him and he cannot handle it.

Spearing horrible game he looked like a fish out of water last night!Sterling came on did well but the crowd treating him like he is the second coming worries me and their expectations on this young lad are going to be massive.

All in all Fulham have some good players experience and wanting the win on the night we had little desire or skill and for some it was an indication that this is not the right club for them and they are not good enough for us anymore! This summer will be a make or break transfer window lots of hard decisions to make
 
« Last Edit: May 2, 2012, 01:19:36 pm by geoffstrong »
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Too many people summising league form won't count and, or, will be forgotten if we beat Chelsea. That was probably a problem with the team last night, an all. I'm sure it won't be forgotten or discounted no matter what happens at Wembley.
And you know what... that's right. Far too much of this season has been unacceptable but loads of people just want to gloss over it because Kenny's in the seat. That's not right. And don't start, with the back Kenny malarkey. I'm not calling for the lad's head, but the fact is... this LFC and 5 wins at Anfield is just not acceptable no matter who's in charge.

I'm the first to say, we're in transition. We need a little patience, but this season shouldn't be just brushed under the carpet, no matter what happens at Wembley. There must be a post mortum. People must be questioned and answers must be found. We can't just accept this and hope it goes away. When we start doing that, we're finished. I've more or less gave up meself, but I'm talking about the club and keeping it at the top or thereabouts. It's not going to be easy. We have to look at the causes of this horrendous season and start to put them right. And that goes for Kenny on down. It's their job.


I think we can draw a line under it when the season stops. We know where we are. We know where we should be. I'd want us to mainly keep the personnel that we have already (Maybe a few small additions) and keep working towards the system that Kenny has tried to implement.

I feel everything is just nearly there and a small 'bit of luck' and a bit more belief and you turn a few results which match the performance in. Once that starts happening - that leads to more belief, confidence and people picking their game up.

Although the results are shocking, the performances for the most part are not. We're nearly there IMO.

Winning a cup will help. Winning two will help even more if we can do it.

Being in Europe is a massive, massive bonus for us as well. We've really missed it and although some total knobheads will discount the Europa league - you can bet they won't be going home and away following the Reds in Europe where we belong.

Going to be a massive season next season and I, for one, can't wait. But since I haven't got a magic time machine, I suppose I'll have to :D
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Offline lamonti

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The only player who did do enough to put himself on to the bench was Raheem Sterling. It would be a brilliant move if Kenny put him there on Saturday. Apart from anything else he could turn round to the failures and say 'I told you. Places were up for grabs. This is the only lad who took me seriously'.   

Would fucking love that. That performance last night was despicable regardless of the context of the cup final and weakened team. 5 or 7 subs in FA Cup?

Offline stevenalonsa

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I have no words to express how poor we were yesterday.  Was shocked and even the football club i had played would have put in a better performance.  As people rightly pointed out you cant just call this game just a dead rubber.   With a string of horrible performances throughout the season, all the League games have become dead rubber games once we have avoided relegation.  I am not sounding dramatic but thats how ridiculous we play and thats what we have achieved this season.  Wholesome changes have to be made.  The team under Rafa rarely lost at Anfield and now we rarely win at Anfield.  How can we go so backward when we had spent like 80 million pounds in one season.  We are no ManCity and we cant expect our owners to spend so much.  Its about managing resources.  I dont want to draw-in a comparison with other top teams here and i painfully acknowledge the fact that we are mid-table team living with History.  The team lacked technical ability, skill, mindset, passion.  I wouldnt be surprised if Kenny gets promoted to Director of Football and I honestly think that isnt bad either.  We could try bringing back Rafa or even Villa Boas (he would be available for free) as FSG went for him last summer if rumours are to be believed. 

Offline liverpooll

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This summer will be a make or break transfer window lots of hard decisions to make

I agree with all of your other points, just about this one, what would you describe last summer transfer window then? For me that was the make or break. And it seems like we failed and are definitely starting this summer with more questions to answer than last summer. This summer would instead be a reflection and knowing if we realized our mistakes or still continue with the same strategy.

Offline killer-heels

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It was a poor performance and not great to see some players who may have staken a claim (i.e. Shelvey) not really perform. The fact that Carroll, Downing and Spearing were poor as well may add further worry.

Cannot really add anything more than what others have said, except that the pressure on the manager and the squad must be so immense for Saturday. It is basically the 1 thing that may very well save peoples jobs.

Offline KirkVanHouten

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I can understand the people saying that it didn't mean anything and we shouldn't be so upset. Despite this it made me feel sick to my stomach. It was the first time in history Liverpool Football Club has lost to Fulham at Anfield, the only thing that says to me is that the team we put out on the pitch last night was not a Liverpool team. It was not Liverpool standard, and to me that is what is most disappointing - we are currently unable to field a side that deserves to play for Liverpool. That's my opinion and I can see that people will disagree.

I wouldn't be upset if I never saw Stewart Downing in our kit again, last night he was supposed to come on and provide an attacking outlet and change the game. He did neither of these and made us visibly worse.

Edit: Think about what the club paid those 13 (Excluding Sterling) guys for that performance - was it worth it?
« Last Edit: May 2, 2012, 01:21:18 pm by KirkVanHouten »

Offline macca888

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Sterling came on did well but the crowd treating him like he is the second coming worries me and their expectations on this young lad are going to be massive.

That's what worries me too Geoff. Granted the lad is a raw talent and still a baby, but once people are into the mindset of wanting performances and results "now not yesterday", where does that leave room for development? We've witnessed it before, we're seeing it with Henderson and Shelvey and to some extent Carroll right now, and I've no doubt it will rear its ugly head if kids like Sterling, Suso and others don't become Messi-esque within a few games. For fucks sake, the most important match of the season and there are already people calling on him to start over Downing and Bellamy on the FA Cup thread. He'll be a special player for us when the time is right, no mistake about that, but I'm worried that people won't give him the time. And I know people will say "don't be daft" but unfortunately I know I'll be proved right by a lot of people.
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Offline Il Capitano

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Personally I am worried, cup final or no cup final, the style, the performances, the direction the transfers, the new players mentalities... all seem suspect to me. But of course, opposed to this is the success in the cups, which is held up as a reason the season is not a total write off. I agree, silverware and the chance at more is important. But I believe these cup runs need to be qualified. I believe there is a marked difference between a team consistently on the up, improving season on season, going on good cup runs and winning silverware, and a team that has his the doldrums in the league and Europe, appears to be going backwards in fact, going on a cup run. The former heralds the arrival of a new force on the footballing landscape... the latter is far less impressive and could be argued only serves to paper over cracks. I was interested in VWMs comment that silverware defines seasons. That is true, but that is individual seasons, in the longer term you have to look beyond such solitary measures.

First of all, thanks very much mate for going through the points I made - after the thread was locked I didn't think I'd get any serious rebuttals or replies to it, so I'm glad someone had a look. There's always a difficulty when determining a team's performance over a season when they've clearly gone in two different directions in the league and the cups, and this is clearly why there's such a divide in the fanbase. In my opinion, facing the performances head on and asking questions is a better approach than redundantly ignoring it completely - because the league is actually pretty fucking important. The modern clamour for fourth place is sickening, but that doesn't mean there is no ground for looking at our league performances and asking why we're not doing better: in between finishing first and being relegated, there are standards of the club to adhere to.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather win trophies than finish in a position that qualifies us for European competition - just ask Arsenal fans how fun it is being thrashed in Europe every season and ending the season with nothing. A cup double would be a magnificent achievement for a club that's gone 5 years without a trophy to celebrate, but I'm sure Kenny is devastated with how our league campaign has worked out. This throughly anti-establishment, contrarian idea of outright rejecting fourth place from our fan base is admirable to me, but really sometimes it is excusing poor performances, and the reality of the situation is that we are a legendary club that should be in the Champions league every year. That should be the bear minimum for us.

Offline Snail

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Fantastic post. There's not a thing in there that I disagree with.

Offline kkjellquist

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For the first time in recent memory I didn't watch the game, wasn't upset when we lost, and couldn't be bothered to skim through it via DVR when I got home.  Bit sad, but a win in the final is all important of course.  I just want the league to be over with and LFC to make some serious changes this summer.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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I think we can draw a line under it when the season stops.
No Andy lad, we can't just do that. There has to be a postmortem. They have to all accept that it wasn't good enough and start to work on putting it right. Once we start ducking things, we might aswell just give up and settle for mid-table finishes and the odd cup.

Kenny won't allow that anyway. But as for Europe, not being in the Europa was supposed to be a bonus this season. It was supposed to let us concentrate on the league. Well, we ended up settling into a very predictable pattern this season. It was quite shocking really. I never seen all yesterday's game, but from reading all the comments, it seemed worse than ever. And the bit I did watch, didn't run the usual script. We didn't even do the normal early pressing. No mate... one off, second string, dead rubber, or not, we need to take a long hard look at ourselves.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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That's what worries me too Geoff. Granted the lad is a raw talent and still a baby, but once people are into the mindset of wanting performances and results "now not yesterday", where does that leave room for development? We've witnessed it before, we're seeing it with Henderson and Shelvey and to some extent Carroll right now, and I've no doubt it will rear its ugly head if kids like Sterling, Suso and others don't become Messi-esque within a few games. For fucks sake, the most important match of the season and there are already people calling on him to start over Downing and Bellamy on the FA Cup thread. He'll be a special player for us when the time is right, no mistake about that, but I'm worried that people won't give him the time. And I know people will say "don't be daft" but unfortunately I know I'll be proved right by a lot of people.

The crowd were starved pal. They'd paid their money and got shite in return. The distress might have been translated into boos on any other night. It didn't happen. It translated into cheers for the sub instead. And he seemed to respond. It was one of the few things that went right all evening.

Should he play in the Final? Probably not. I haven't seen anyone say he should start - and certainly I haven't seen anyone say he should take Craig Bellamy's place. But he's worth a spot on the bench surely.

Sadly, on reflection, I think that Carroll will start on Saturday. He'll get in by default, not through any merits of his own. On the evidence of last night Kenny will know that we simply don't have the players in midfield to compete with Chelsea. Gerrard will therefore drop back and Carroll will play the supporting role to Suarez. The tactic will be to by-pass midfield as much as possible and play long to Carrolls' head. Suarez will do a lot of chasing but may not see much of the ball. Hopefully he'll get enough of it to do something magical. It's going to be a hard watch.   
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Offline Suarez 7

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Final on Saturday so thats all there is to think about, but it wasnt really a reserve team .

We had out our top two scorer from last season in Maxi and Kuyt, our 35M striker, our 16M CM our 20M winger came on, we had our best CB playing, a RB who has played in many a game, we had Spearing playing who has played the majority of the season.

The result doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but it was far from a youth team we put out there.
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Offline stevied

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Sterling came on did well but the crowd treating him like he is the second coming worries me and their expectations on this young lad are going to be massive.

My step lad who is 14 was jumping up and down when he came on, i tried to tell him he isnt Messi and he wont be able to single handedly rescue games for us , i thought McAteer made a really good point on the build up show when he said that when the likes of Owen and Gerrard and made their bows they were head and shoulders above the rest, you could see them stand out a mile within their age groups, he thought Sterling was below that standard and i tend to agree with him, yes he is a very promising kid but that is all he is at the moment , bring him through slowly and i agree with Macca people that are calling for him to start at Wembley are deluded
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Offline KirkVanHouten

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Are people actually being serious here? Fulham Football Club just drew level with us on points with a win at Anfield, while our spending in the summer completely dwarfed theirs. I don't care that we have a Cup Final on the horizon that result will never, should never ever be accepted by anyone associated with the club.

Offline RedinExile

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I was interested in VWMs comment that silverware defines seasons. That is true, but that is individual seasons, in the longer term you have to look beyond such solitary measures.
Great post Donkey, sums up my concerns too.
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Haha brilliant!

Donkeywan, the portrayal of the investment last summer as unprecedented is askew for me. The squad was denuded as much as it was bolstered along the way. It might not have been particularly 'modest', but it was demonstrably 'net' of a number of front line pros, be they sold or put out on loan. That the fees were poorly negotiated? Well, the man responsible's now out of a job, isn't he?

To say the context of turmoil from which we've had to build is irrelevant is odd, no? Two years we're talking about. I don't think excuses *are* being made for failure either. We expect more from the players. But it's going too far to write off our starting point as irrelevant.

The malaise of different styles. We've played some truly excellent football this season, peppered with garbage. But it's not been uniformly shite.

The players on form. There's a clear case to be answered here, I'd acknowledge that. But do you jettison the players brought in? That leads to the next point.

The 'awful transfer dealings'. We bought five British players, two of whom we vastly overpaid for I'd argue. (I think we paid fair value for Henderson personally and that it'll be proven in coming seasons.) Meanwhile we bought four foreign players, none of whom we vastly overpaid for. So the real concern is over the Carroll and Downing transfers, isn't it? We should nail that discussion down to the two cases in point, rather than over-generalising i'd argue.

At the end of the day, he put the predominately second string out and (not for the first time) they failed to deliver. The squad needs reinforcements if it's going to sustain a European run.

Offline west_london_red

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Impossible to ignore Saturdays game when looking at yesterdays performance, and I suspect most of the guys on the pitch yesterday knew they wouldnt be in the starting XI, but I still expected the lads on the pitch to try and give Kenny some food for thought which none of them really did. If nothing else, Kennys job in picking his team for Saturday was made easier yesterday.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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First of all, thanks very much mate for going through the points I made

This throughly anti-establishment, contrarian idea of outright rejecting fourth place from our fan base is admirable to me, but really sometimes it is excusing poor performances, and the reality of the situation is that we are a legendary club that should be in the Champions league every year. That should be the bear minimum for us.

1] No bother, it was a fine post and didn't deserve to get ignored

2] the scramble for fourth may appear unseemly but the reason there is such a scramble is because of what it represents. If you cannot win the league then aiming for CL is a secondary objective. Why? Because it provides a route to the top, increased money, exposure, playing time against the best clubs in Europe and so forth. It is a (now necessary) stepping stone to better things and being excluded from it really hurts. Personally in my pre-season estimation of the side I expressed the opinion that 4th or above was beyond our reach and that Europa League qualification should be our main objective after winning silverware, so we could take a step back to regular CL qualification. Just look at the value of the EL to Athletic Bilbao... who even paid attention to them prior to their heroics in the EL? Suddenly their players are popular and in demand, the club is perceived to be on the up (even if the languish in the league). That is the value of European competition, in all forms. because of this I was delighted with the manner in which the team qualified for the EL (winning a trophy) but still feel an opportunity was lost because no one foresaw the collapse of Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs early on. We failed to capitalise in the worst manner possible and I feel, FA cup win or not, we are badly set up for next season.
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