Topic: THE WALK OUT ON 77 MINUTES AT THE SUNDERLAND MATCH

[Fromola]

Ian Ayre.."We have an ageing fanbase"

Right on Harley!

He's only bothered because over 65s get a discount.

[hawkwind]

I get to 16 games a season all in the Kop, where do i go if these tickets sell out?
Will that be me and my lad yet another two supporters priced out of the game?

[Fromola]

And it's absolutely right that if you sit in the best seats with the best view, you pay the best prices. Glad to see the back of this flat price nonsense.

Have you sat in the Centenary Stand? The facilities are awful.

It's not the Emirates where you've got 60,000 padded seats with plenty of legroom. Anfield's an outdated shithole on 3 sides.

Damn right. No one would give it a second thought. Just opportunistic attention seeking.

But we're not top of the table are we? We're a mid-table side, with mid-table players in an outdated stadium.

Unless we're getting Suarez back in the summer it's a total swindle for the shit we have to watch on the pitch. If we're 6th and 7th for most of the next 5-10 years,or worse, collecting mid-table players like stamps, will you still defend the top tier prices?

[Fromola]

There will also be tickets in the Anfield Road End for £65.  A £13 increase.  In a stand that wouldn't look out of place in a Championship ground.  With minimal facilities.  A behind the goal stand where traditionally prices have been low.

A bit harsh on the Championship that.

Other than the similarly antiquated Goodison Park, it's the worst away stand in the Premier League.

[vivabobbygraham]

All well and good rafathegafa, but what Szymanski's analysis ignores is the ticket buying attendance is part of the product that TV companies are clamouring for. It is not just a product with consumers. The audience are participants with a role to play. Without the crowd, the game is just 22 fellas running after a bag of wind. It wouldn't sell shit. So while he might believe that clubs would not reduce ticket income overall because TV money is up, in the short term, if the nature of the product changes, and the majority of attendees are not invested in the history and partisanship that made this sport, the whole business might lose its appeal in the longer term. Bland matchdays of 60,000 half and half scarf wearers won't sell. For the global audience, I see it becoming something like the Hunger Games, experienced through 3D goggles 'as if you were there'. I'm not even joking.

I totally get the anger about the obscene money paid to players and their pimps. Considering the money made from TV and sponsors, ticket revenue looks like a rounding error. That is the madness of this. What really makes me see 'red' is the money pissed away on recent signings who never play, get loaned out, and leave at a vastly reduced value.

You know, the Borini, Markovic, Alberto, Illori, and our dear friend, fuck-wit Balotelli of our recent past. So while the club can be sure to fill a stadium today, next week, next month, they need to be very careful they don't soon inherit a mid table, mediocre, moan-fest of a featureless football business.

My Granddad, from Anfield, starting going to matches in 1908. My Dad started going as a lad in 1932. From the 1950 to 1980s they had Main Stand season tickets. I started on the Kop in 1972. This club has been such a part of my families life. I've lived abroad half my life, and get to games when I can. More often lately, as I'm back in the UK

This debate, for the first time, has me asking the question is this my club any longer?

Is it, Ian Ayre?

Fuck knows who this Szymanski fellah is but I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Atmosphere is part of the global brand appeal but does not appear on any balance sheet. It is an integral part of this football clubs value yet is being ripped out of it to satisfy number crunchers. That is really fucking poor business acumen and those responsible should be taken to task over it. Ian fucking Ayre will roll over and take it up the shitter from any yank who pays him accordingly. They put him up as the 'local' in this storied franchise when he is, in fact, a fucking Judas, a chancer, and, most informatively, a c*nt

[Fromola]

I'd argue by investing a few million - or one average first team wage - on subsidising prices would be worth more to the club just on the pitch than the average first team player because a more vibrant, and positive, Anfield is worth points to us in the league and progression in the cups/Europe.

We wouldn't have reached Istanbul without our crowd and that crowd is being systematically taken apart so we can buy more Bentekes and pay the wages of more James Milners.

Jose fucking Enrique will earn upwards of £2m from the club this year ffs.

All the arseholes who run the club these days care about is pounds, shillings and pence, but they certainly know how to fucking waste it all.

They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, whether it's the transfer market or the way they treat fans. c*nts to a man.

[Pistolero]

Imagine a stadium full of Peter McGurks.....that's where we're heading....and thats why i'll be up and out on 77

[24/7]

Has anyone arranged for flyers or something similar to be passed around the stadium?

Yes. So hopefully there won't be too many unaware of what's happening (provided the leaflets have been translated into Norwegian too )

Also if the 300s walk out, there will be an impact more than visual - where else do the songs come from?

[Johnny Foreigner]

Social media is adding a new dimensjon.pojkarna i min sons fotbollslag var eniga om at ayre er en idiot under gårsdagens halvtidshvila. Dom er 15, the words used were more colorful than idiot actually

[JP-65]

The stands should remain empty until the 9th minute in support of £9 tickets

[24/7]

Social media is adding a new dimensjon.pojkarna i min sons fotbollslag var eniga om at ayre er en idiot under gårsdagens halvtidshvila. Dom er 15, the words used were more colorful than idiot actually

hit is with the words used - we can translate

"The lads in my son's football team were united in the the view that Ayre is an idiot, during yesterday's half time break."

[Derzyjudek]

I haven't been able to afford to go for a couple of years now and I have never left a game early but I am fully behind this,they are completely taking the piss now.

[lobsterboy]

So you had a feeling. Terrific. Well my feeling is if you reduce prices by a third then you're going to have a third less to pay players. If that's what you want well fine. Go tell Sturridge.

If you think that 'greedy' owners are lining their pockets with less than one half of one per cent profit and interest-free loans to build capacity, I don't think you can count. I also think you have no chance 'negotiating' (for us?) on prices if all you have is a 'feeling'. You need real and substantive numbers.

If you really wanted to know, it wouldn't be hard to work out. But the outcome is actually staring you in the face if only you wanted to see it.

A very small proportion of prices have increased. Quite a few more have decreased or stayed the same - and there are more of them. I dare say there's little or no change in revenue per seat from GA tickets and the club is selling a whole lot more hospitality packages to pay the wages and transfer fees that everyone seems to want. It's no bad.

Maybe there is a feeling the players and agents are paid far too much, especially for the "product" they currently produce?
Maybe it is time for fans to take a stand on that as well.
If you are with BT, Sky or a customer of any corporate partner of any big European club then your money is filling the pockets of players and the greedy agents regardless of if you actually watch football or not. Sky put up non-sports packages by £3 pm directly after overpaying for the EPL best football in the universe ever bollocks.
Wages topping 300k a week is insanity. where will it end? It is unsustainable. Clubs will fold when it implodes.
It also invites the worst corruption seen outside a bank or government and even the highest paid "best" players in the world turn out to be tax dodging scumbags as well.

[Flyhalf]

Are those of us who are walking out congregating in a particular area afterwards. My mate and I will be leaving the Anfield Road end so not sure if we will have much company!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Have you sat in the Centenary Stand? The facilities are awful.

It's not the Emirates where you've got 60,000 padded seats with plenty of legroom. Anfield's an outdated shithole on 3 sides.

My ST is in the Upper Centenary and the facilities are fine, thanks.

And do piss off with that shithole comment.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Are those of us who are walking out congregating in a particular area afterwards. My mate and I will be leaving the Anfield Road end so not sure if we will have much company!

I'm going to congragate in our usual post-match pub. I won't say where it is as I doubt they'll be able to handle the extra 5,000 people that might turn up

[JP-65]

Show's you how Ian Ayre isn't fit for purpose....a real Scouse CEO, when he caught wind of this, would have increased  the headline price to £94

[Smudgester]

Really? You know the skill set of EVERY supporter and their business acumen and resources?! Wow. Well, we'd all better just step aside then. No, not having that. You do NOT know the collective skill set - and the will - of the most ardent and loyal supporter base and if that supporter base was incapable of mobilising when most needed then the two biggest campaigns in our club's history would have fallen flat on their faces. Let's see if you can guess the two campaigns to which I refer? You seem also in other posts to favour a tiered system. Pray, tell, where lieth thy boundaries for said tiers? Who pays what for which seat? Ian Ayre will love you for it, because you will speak his truth for him.

No he doesn't but what he does know for a fact is that ... the last time the club was up for sale and the supporters groups suggested the fans buying it they couldn't even get a tiny fraction of the £300/400M required.

[stromsgodset11]

We really need to target the media to make this a massive story. There's no mention on either BBC or Sky Sports web sites about this, there really ought to be

[lobsterboy]

Could lead to a downward spiral - cut income, lose players through fees and wages, lose league position, cut income, lose players...

At the moment could be next season.

best players have been sold and not replaced even as prices and wages rise
league position has been falling even as prices and wages rise
More price rises don't appear to be the answer

[Gerry Attrick]

We really need to target the media to make this a massive story. There's no mention on either BBC or Sky Sports web sites about this, there really ought to be

BBC did report it earlier in the week;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35494796

[Smudgester]

What if the kid would also like to sit behind the director's box, should he/she be allowed? What if all the tickets were reduced to the same price? Imagine you having to sit beside the great unwashed, oh the horror.

Why should a seat behind the director's box cost the same as every other seat in the stadium?

A kid can sit anywhere they provided they pay the relevant price - just like EVERYBODY else.

[24/7]

From the Graundiad article:

"Ian Ayre, Liverpool’s chief executive, said it was impossible to please everyone. “What is affordable to one person is different to another,” Ayre said. “With that in mind we tried to create a range of prices. We have listened to fans’ concerns and come up with some new initiatives, and we hope there is something for all.”

I'm sure they listened really, really carefully to all those supporters who requested an increase, you know, in the interests of balance and to ensure that this range of prices includes the ones who have said they don't mind paying for the new stand cos, well, we've got deep pockets and deeper arseholes so feel free to plunge deep into both, Mr Ayre, it's all for the greater good......So nice of the club to do that. Perhaps we're being too harsh on them!

Ooh look - an airborne piggy.........

[adamski29]

Ticket prices aren't necessarily a main driver as to why there are half empty stadiums in Italy. It's more a combination of football scandals (Calciopoli) undermining the league's credibility, coupled with violence in the stadiums, poorer standard of football and publicly owned stadiums, which are pretty much crumbling, even though most were built or refurbished for Italia '90. The municipalities have little or no incentive to upgrade and maintain these facilities, which are generally far too big. Juventus moved into a brand new stadium with 27,000 fewer seats. The most expensive season ticket at Juventus in 2013 was £291. PL average attendances the last two seasons have been at their highest since 1951. And yet this is an era when ticket prices have escalated rapidly. Liverpool's average PL attendances haven't been below 40,000 since the late 90s.

I've seen the quotes from the Bundesliga chief about £2m in extra revenues being brought up. That said the German model is completely different to that of the PL and it cannot really be used as a clear comparison because its historical growth largely differs from that in Britain. The vast majority of Bundesliga clubs were completely fan owned until the mid-90s, as many (Stuttgart, Bayern, HSV) historically grew out of local community sports clubs in which football is but one component. Bayern Munich still have a  competitive chess team for instance. Most English clubs with those origins (i.e. Man City) abandoned that concept in the late 19th century when the cricket divisions of some teams folded or split. Others (Liverpool, Chelsea, Sheffield United) were created by an individual who owned a ground and needed new tenants.

 In the late 90s, these German clubs were allowed to spin off their football divisions as companies, which produced the 50%+1 fan ownership regulations. The obvious exceptions being the likes of Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg that grew out of factory teams. This is also how Dortmund got themselves into trouble when they put themselves on the German stock market. Bayern sold a quarter of the shares in its football division to the likes of Audi and Adidas to finance and pay off the Allianz Arena. Their board has Rummenigge as its head, but the majority of the other members are the heads of major German companies: Deutsche Telekom, Adidas, Audi, Volkswagen, Allianz. Dortmund's has a former German Finance Minister, the head of Puma and an executive at Evonik Industries.

Ticket prices are but one component in the growth in German attendance, which has also been crucially linked to an eradication in football violence and the upgrades on stadia that were completed in preparation for the 2006 World Cup, which made them more modern and safer.  Similar boosts in attendances occurred in Britain after all-seater stadia were introduced and refurbishments were done for Euro 1996. That said most German clubs did not pay for all of those upgrades. The City of Nürnberg and the State of Bavaria split the €56m in upgrades for the Frankenstadion. Three quarters of the costs for Commerzbank arena were paid by the City of Frankfurt and the State of Hesse. The German federal government spent €196 million upgrading the Olympiastadion in Berlin. German clubs also place stricter limits on the amount of season tickets they sell to allow more people to attend.

Have to somewhat agree with the above. Not that I agree with the policy of raising prices, but as the football economist Stefan Szymanski has previously argued its extremely unlikely that any PL club will cut prices just because of the new TV deal, as there is little to no business incentive for them to do so, especially in a FFP environment. His argument is that as a business with a high demand from both television viewership and ticket sales, just because a company is gaining more money in one area (TV) it does not logically mean that they would  try to make less money in another area (tickets), particularly as their overall costs (wages) are going up. Additionally, he argues, that even if ticket prices in the PL were cut in half, that give the high demand for tickets, it's also possible that a greater number of tickets would end up being obtained by touts and sold at a price akin to the current amounts with that money essentially exiting the club.  A lower demand for tickets would likely force ticket prices to been cut or frozen. Nobody is going to win in this situation: neither the club (from a PR perspective), nor the fans (from an economic perspective). I feel sympathy for the ordinary fan having to pay more and good luck to those walking out. The PL price model is warped, by the sheer demand for games and the vast sums of money coming in from television revenues.

I wasn't using that example as something to do with ticket prices, just as means to show that, through a combination of factors that, football stadiums can end up half empty. It's not a given at all times in the future that English football stadiums will be full.

[readybreck]

I can't imagine many fans will actually leave on the 77th minute. I bet at least a quarter of the fans in the stadium won't even realise what is going on!

Agree with this

[adamski29]

If any fanbase can pull this off successfully it's us - there are very few with our size, history, and Gumption.

agreed. if this leads to anything significant it will be apt that Liverpool fans started it.

[macca007]

best players have been sold and not replaced even as prices and wages rise
league position has been falling even as prices and wages rise
More price rises don't appear to be the answer

Even if we were winning everything around with the best players these prices for me would still be taking the piss.  Not saying footballers shouldn't be on decent money but when you've got a 20 year old kid leaving us to get 200 thousand a week you know something is wrong.  I'm sick of watching average players pick up the wages they do when we have to fork out silly money to get a ticket. Shouldn't be over 40 quid anywhere for me and that's the maximum it should be.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Smudgester - relevant price is not what ian ayre ends up with. The relevant price is what the average supporter can actually tolerate. And its not an auction

[richmiller1]

What if the kid would also like to sit behind the director's box, should he/she be allowed? What if all the tickets were reduced to the same price? Imagine you having to sit beside the great unwashed, oh the horror.

I'm becoming increasingly uncertain about today and it's the prevalence of sentiment like this that is doing it.

Lower prices? No one in the ground could object to that.

Trouble is a great many seem to be actively arguing for completely regressive flat pricing.

What exactly is it we are arguing for here? How far does the club have to budge before we are called from the pickets? Who makes that call? I've read the whole thread and chewed this over in the pub with a few others last night. I'm still none the wiser.

Now the thing has been called I think showing a disunited front is the greater of the two evils but not by much. This thing currently seems as coherent and well thought through as the whole 'SAVE US GEORGE AND TOM' debacle from a few years back. Worse in fact. No common set out position to aim for. No end point. Surely we have enough experience of successful protest to know better?

I fear we'll look back on this as a wasted opportunity. More planning. More unity of purpose. More engagement. Then we could genuinely have changed things for the better.

This however is just a mess and one I'm now compelled to join. I'll be there but I won't be thanking anyone for it

[Alf Garnett!]

Ian Ayre will be squirming by now.

An inpromptu appearance dressed like a fucking scruff explaining his actions..

Hard to believe this fucker represents us at the highest level.

[Dam Sodd]

I can't imagine many fans will actually leave on the 77th minute. I bet at least a quarter of the fans in the stadium won't even realise what is going on!

Hoping at least the bulk of the 300s in the kop will walk out so at least it will be for the whole ground to see...

Has anyone arranged for flyers or something similar to be passed around the stadium?

[lcjpm01]

The stands should remain empty until the 9th minute in support of £9 tickets

The concourse in both the Anny Road and Main Stand is not adequate enough to do this bearing in mind you'd need a majority in the Stadium so the game kicked off. Both are pitiful for a club of out standing.

[Timbo's Goals]

I've refined the following piece which  I posted a few pages back. I'm doing 50 copies of it and I'll be handing them out to everyone in our row and the immediate vicinity. Hopefully it will at least get the point across to those around me and my mates as to why we'll be leaving at the 77th minute.

It's the insidiousness that gets me. The underhandness of it all.

The basic economics involved in running a football club of our standing and ambition is taken as read. Yet what screams out as the fuller picture emerges is the club making a conscious decision to marginally increase the overall match day revenue which they extract from the ordinary fan base, whilst presenting the whole thing publically as a tiered pricing structure with price increases for the more attractive centre pitch seat locations securing seemingly philanthropic cut-price gestures to the younger and less affluent elements of our support.

Seemingly fine and noble gestures by the club, yet masking an ulterior objective.

The overall increased revenue concealed within the complex tiering model was £2 million. It represents a relatively paltry amount having regard to the obscene squandering of club funds on sub-standard playing staff with which we are all so painfully aware these past few years.

It is thrown further into its quite embarrassingly limited perspective when contrasted with the immense increased TV revenues the club will garner next season not to mention the ever burgeoning sponsorship and accompanying commercial revenues.

Yet crucially what it reveals is a current club philosophy that rather turns the stomach. A financial model geared towards increasing the overall fan contribution at a time when a huge swathe of the traditional fan base has long been disenfranchised by year on year ticket price escalation and many of the remainder struggle financially to justify and cling to their season tickets/match day tickets.

More pointedly the increase comes at the very time when the coffers, set to swell hugely with the burgeoning TV money, might well have prompted the club to explore a tiered pricing structure yielding, say, a corresponding £2million overall reduction in the match day revenue extracted from the fans.

Again a relatively paltry amount in overall terms. But a reduction nevertheless. And in symbolic terms a huge statement of appreciation by the club of the continuing year upon year loyalty of the club’s core fan base.   

Perhaps in the face of a protest prompted by the club's underlying mercenary approach to its pricing structure, the club may think again before it actually implements its plans and consider moving towards an overall reduction. Perhaps if it did so it would gain the respect of so many of the core fan base who have grown weary particularly in recent years of the glib exploitation of their loyalty.

Perhaps then some of the images of the Anfield experience the club relish projecting to its watching global audience might then find a platform of genuine credibility upon which that rose-tinted projection may be built.

This is why I’ll be leaving my spiritual home at the 77th minute.

[Dam Sodd]

I've refined the following piece which  I posted a few pages back. I'm doing 50 copies of it and I'll be handing them out to everyone in our row and the immediate vicinity. Hopefully it will at least get the point across to those around me and my mates as to why we'll be leaving at the 77th minute.

 

[Smudgester]

Smudgester - relevant price is not what ian ayre ends up with. The relevant price is what the average supporter can actually tolerate. And its not an auction

And when Anfield continues to sell out next season - complete with the £77 seats - that will tell the club that the prices can be tolerated.

[davidsteventon]

It's the insidiousness that gets me. The underhandness of it all.

The basic economics involved in running a football club of our standing and ambition is taken as read. Yet what screams out as the fuller picture emerges is the club making a conscious decision to marginally increase the overall match day revenue they extract from the ordinary fan base, whilst presenting the whole thing publically as a tiered pricing structure with price increases for the more attractive centre pitch seat locations securing seemingly philanthropic cut-pricing gestures to the younger and less affluent elements of our support. Seemingly fine and noble gestures by the club, yet masking an ulterior objective.

The overall increased revenue concealed within the complex tiering model was £2 million. It represents a relatively paltry amount having regard to the obscene squandering of club funds on sub-standard playing staff with which we are all so painfully aware these past few years. It is thrown further into its quite embarrassingly limited perspective when contrasted with the immense increased TV revenues the club will garner next season not to mention the ever burgeoning sponsorship and accompanying commercial revenues.

Yet crucially it reveals a current club philosophy that rather turns the stomach. A financial model geared towards increasing the overall fan contribution at a time when a huge swathe of the traditional fan base has long been disenfranchised by year on year ticket price escalation and many of the remainder struggle financially to justify and cling to their season tickets/match day tickets. More pointedly the increase comes at a time when the coffers, set to swell hugely with the burgeoning TV money, might well have prompted the club to explore a tiered pricing structure yielding say a £2million overall reduction in the match day revenue extracted from the fans. Again a relatively paltry amount in overall terms. But a reduction nevertheless. And in symbolic terms a huge statement of appreciation by the club of the continuing fan loyalty.   

Perhaps in the face of a protest prompted by the club's underlying mercenary approach to its pricing structure, the club may think again before it actually implements its plans and consider moving towards an overall reduction. Perhaps if it did so it would gain the respect of so many of the core fan base who have grown weary particularly in recent years of the glib exploitation of their loyalty. Perhaps some of the images of the Anfield experience the club relish projecting to its watching global audience might then find a platform of genuine credibility upon which that rose-tinted projection may be built.

Great words. Thank you.

[lobsterboy]

Even if we were winning everything around with the best players these prices for me would still be taking the piss.  Not saying footballers shouldn't be on decent money but when you've got a 20 year old kid leaving us to get 200 thousand a week you know something is wrong.  I'm sick of watching average players pick up the wages they do when we have to fork out silly money to get a ticket. Shouldn't be over 40 quid anywhere for me and that's the maximum it should be.

You'll get no argument from me on that, even £40 seems high.
Think this needs to be pushed further than just us though. Supporters groups should come together to put pressure on the sponsors of the PL, the CL, the FA cup and other competitions as well as the individual clubs.
I nearly died on Monday from an infection, put things in persepctive. The nurses that saved my life don't earn in one year what these kids get in a week. Its fucking obscene.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

And when Anfield continues to sell out next season - complete with the £77 seats - that will tell the club that the prices can be tolerated.

you know what he means. It'll be full of the wrong people.

[Smudgester]

Fuck off, you know what he means. It'll be full of the wrong people.

I understand that perfectly - I was just stating how the club will see it; in their eyes if demand exceeds supply ( and it still will next season ) then they will see no evidence that the price is intolerable

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm becoming increasingly uncertain about today and it's the prevalence of sentiment like this that is doing it.

Lower prices? No one in the ground could object to that.

Trouble is a great many seem to be actively arguing for completely regressive flat pricing.

What exactly is it we are arguing for here? How far does the club have to budge before we are called from the pickets? Who makes that call? I've read the whole thread and chewed this over in the pub with a few others last night. I'm still none the wiser.

Now the thing has been called I think showing a disunited front is the greater of the two evils but not by much. This thing currently seems as coherent and well thought through as the whole 'SAVE US GEORGE AND TOM' debacle from a few years back. Worse in fact. No common set out position to aim for. No end point. Surely we have enough experience of successful protest to know better?

I fear we'll look back on this as a wasted opportunity. More planning. More unity of purpose. More engagement. Then we could genuinely have changed things for the better.

This however is just a mess and one I'm now compelled to join. I'll be there but I won't be thanking anyone for it

I am going to leave on 77 minutes and, like you, I'm not delighted with the prospect (But then who would be delighted at missing a game they're at.. I get pissed off if I miss 5 minutes when watching on the telly!)

But. All people are arguing for here (in my view) is that that FSG realise that people aren't happy - and not just a few - and that they rethink their stance.

I don't think specifics are on there, but as SoS have said - the club haven't altered their position a jot. They aren't negotiating - they are laying down the law.

And the concern isn't what they have done NOW - the concern is that now they've breached the £1,000 ST and breached the £100 match ticket - then that will gradually become the norm across the ground

Everyone will be squeezed until dickheads like me (That don't buy food or shite out of the club shop) fuck it off and am replaced by a proper CUSTOMER that buys scarves and hats and shirts and food and hot dogs and drinks and everything else.

The club sees dickheads like me as a fat spongy shite that is blocking up their u-bend to cashcows.