Author Topic: How far away are we really? Why good outweighs bad yet isn't seen on the pitch  (Read 396509 times)

Offline -HH-

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Please excuse this ramble. I have posted along these lines today a couple of times but you won't have seen them because as I was writing both threads were locked. So instead of trying to argue in threads that are already going downhill (or just started horribly) I have decided to start my own. I am sure there will be plenty of people out there lining up to say that this is bollocks, just as there were as the transfer window closed last year and I posted about the impact of our lack of transfer activity being overblown and that without any signings we were still favourites for top 3 or 4 and in with an outside chance of the title (I throw that in as a reminder that occasionally those who shout loudest are wrong).

I considered putting this in the transfer forum but it concerns the current squad and the decision is that it shouldn't be talked about in the transfer forum.

Firstly, I want to talk about what went right and what went wrong in the summer, mainly to say that for all the criticism of the transfer committee that we did actually make more positive decisions than negative ones in the summer transfer market. I still believe that of those we signed Lallana, Can, Markovic, Moreno, Manquillo and possibly (despite an awful season so far) Lovren can have a successful long term future at the club. Even excluding Lovren who I believe is the most controversial choice in there, you're still talking about over half of our transfer activity in both numbers of transfers and money spent.

What went wrong was that we forgot that we had one of the most fluid teams in the league last season, and in key positions we allowed ourselves to become too static. By signing Can to play alongside Gerrard and Lucas we left ourselves with 3 relatively static options in the midfield. By signing Balotelli and Lambert as our only striking purchases we did the same at the very top end of the field, while Borini's decision to stay left us with a striking option who is mobile but doesn't look to have the required quality to make it here.

Although we have struggled all season long, I think you can actually see the problem most clearly when you analyse the recent games where a recovery has seemed on the cards for much of the time. Firstly, you look at where in that run the performances have been poor and you would look at Burnley and Leicester and note that we were poor in midfield and that (excellent footballers that they are in their own right) both Lucas and Gerrard started the game. It is difficult to dominate a midfield when 2 of your midfield 3 lack mobility to that degree.

Then, you look at those games where we have performed better with varying results: Mancs away, Arsenal and Swansea at home. Well what stands out is that for the most part we played with a more mobile midfield (Arsenal being the exception) and that as with all these games Raheem Sterling has led the line. His increased mobility with the likes of Lallana and Coutinho floating around him has definitely helped our attacking play as a team look more like last year, however in those 5 league games that he has started up front he himself has only notched a single goal against Burnley. This remains preferable to earlier in the season since we at least look like scoring, but isn't likely to give us the level of goals we need with a defence that leaks goals at the rate we do.

There is a lot of argument about how far away this team are from being a top 4 side, but the answer for me personally is not far at all, in fact, I don't think we're all that far away from being a title challenging side. We've shown the world last season that defensive stability isn't vital if you can score enough goals, and to be honest I don't think the individuals in our defence are as bad as they are made out to be - but that at least in part our other issues contribute to our poor defensive record. Firstly, the lack of mobility in midfield not only allows us less of the ball, it exposes our defence to players running at them with the ball and it is far too easy for players to find pockets of space behind our midfield from which to work. Secondly, when the team isn't scoring freely it adds a pressure to the defence, because they know a single goal will ruin the result as often as not.

The solution is to make sure we don't fall into this trap again, and that while we will never always sign the right player every time, that as a minimum requirement we sign people that fit the way the manager wants us to play. But purely as an exercise if you have read this thread with a sceptical face on: Pick a midfielder, striker and goalkeeper to add into our current squad. They don't have to be realistic particularly although obviously it seems silly to pick the likes of Messi or Ronaldo simply because those players come along so rarely. Add the players into both the side and squad and then see where you think that side/squad would finish. I am going to post mine up but please don't post yours in response, it can get very dull that way:

Valdes

Manquillo
Lovren
Sakho
Moreno

Can
Pogba
Coutinho

Sterling
Aguero
Lallana

Backup 11

Mignolet

Johnson
Skrtel
Toure
Flanagan

Lucas
Allen
Henderson

Markovic
Sturridge
Origi

Where do I think that team/squad could finish? I'd argue 2nd or 3rd. We're at a stage of evolution, not revolution and in my view there's a big danger that we don't see that and take what may well end up as a disappointing season as proof that we have done more things wrong than we actually have. Or we panic in January and in desperation to secure a top 4 finish we fall into the same traps we fell into in the summer and sign the wrong players for key positions. It is time we back the manager in the best way possible, by finding him the right players to fit his philosophy rather than making him work around what he has. Steven Gerrard is one of my all time favourite players but his decision should have made life a lot easier for what comes next - which is talented, mobile players in the middle of the park allied with mobile players at the top end of the pitch who know where the back of the net is.

We need to be realistic and acknowledge that 4th place is a massive ask for us this season. It usually requires 70 points and last season even that wasn't enough. We have left ourselves needing 41 points from 18 games to reach 70 points. To put that into perspective if we won our next 6 league games on the bounce we'd still need to average 2 points a game for the rest of the season in order to get to 71 points. Our next 6 are  Sunderland (a), Villa (a), West Ham (h), Everton (a), Tottenham (h), Southampton (a). 4 away games and 2 home games both against teams currently above us in the table. We are currently averaging under 1.5 points per game.

I say all this not for people to give up hope, but simply to point out that there is no point spending on short term deals in January to try and bridge the gap to 4th since it is such a huge ask. Rodgers has it absolutely right that we should only be spending in January if the right players are available, players that medium - long term will remain at the club and push us towards where we want to be. And in the summer, even without Champions League football we should have the money to spend to get the quality we need. We have the CL TV money (where I think we get 30% of the full English pot despite getting knocked out), another year of the domestic TV deal, some players to offload for small - medium fees and Steven Gerrard and Glen Johnson's wages.

To summarise, we aren't far away from having a top quality side and squad. Our manager is a top quality coach. However, getting the key summer transfer business wrong means that this season we are pretty much the definition of "so near and yet so far".
« Last Edit: January 2, 2015, 03:26:54 pm by -HH- »
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline the good half

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Good post.
It's hard not to feel that positivity.
It just seems to have been this way for so long.
Just outta reach.

Offline Mighty_Red

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I would agree that January probably won't be a great window for us but I would say that the work that goes into signing our next midfielder to replace Stevie starts now.

As you say, we have a clean slate and we can buy the right type of player that we did. I want us to go out and get a big one, not because they have a big name, but because they fit what we want to do and have real quality rather than just potential. So far, of the 3 key signings, Mario was always a gamble, Lovren has been a disaster and Lallana developing nicely and should show his class in the second half of the season. We need to get this one right else we will continue on the same path.

4th is still very much on despite our dropped points yesterday as it looks like the points needed will be lower this year. Our margin for error has gone down even further but no need to give up hope yet, at least we have a side that Sturridge can come back to and actually have a chance of improving.
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Think with the Gerrard news and halfway through the season, we're at the stage where we need to evaluate where we are as a club atm so hope this thread stays. Bit that stuck out to me is that you think we're not far off challenging for the league.

We're miles off at the moment.

As someone who is always an optimist in life, reality is that I don't see much shining light for the club atm. I believe it's got to the point where a lot of posters on here are almost scared of offering any criticism of the club that is constructive for fear of looking negative but a dose of reality is needed.

If I'm truthful with myself, I think we overrate a lot of our players. I try to be as objective as I can about our club these days and I see only 2 standouts: Sterling and Sturridge. (I would include Gerrard but he's not here after this season and Coutinho is too inconsistent).

After that we have few good players, a lot of average players and some poor players. Mixed with a good but inexperienced coach.

Our real level is about 4th IMO. What we're doing is relying on a solid number of our players to fulfil their Potential which doesn't always happen. Reality is one or two real star players make the grade and the rest are sold.

Basically we're in a purgatory right now. The decisions the management take from now will decide where we end up as a club without Gerrard. Getting Sterling signed would be a good start, but ultimately it will go either way. 

Offline bodhisattva

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the team that started against Swansea had an average age of just under 24 i think, when you consider that its hard not to be optimistic about the future.

We do need to be better in the transfer market, in hindsight we've spent a lot of money on players that don't seem to fit the profile of the type of player thats going to thrive in a BR team (most significently Balotelli and Lovren) we can't make those mistakes too often because we're working with limited funds.

In the summer we should see some big earners leave which will free up a lot of money in wages to add to the squad, i think a new GK is a must as well as a central midfielder in the prime of their career that can come straight in.

Offline RK7

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We are close, I have been saying it for a long time but unless we do bring in those 2 or 3 players it will all be nothing.
 
Also I suspect so many other clubs in the division have the same idea about their club, they will continue to build and we can find ourselves going sideways. Look at Southampton and West Ham for example, in the space of one window they have matched us.

This season in terms of the league is gone now though so we must not panic buy, we should probably use this market to get the best price we can for several of our players, we can hold the money and reduce the wages till the summer.

What ever happens though, we must recognise our defensive problems are only in part down to individual mistakes, the problem has been with us for years now and is no coincidence.

Edit. When I say close I'm talking about being a side good enough to get top four not challenge for the title.

« Last Edit: January 2, 2015, 04:35:34 pm by RK7 »

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Far away because the last step is always the most difficult one. We have and will have a very young squad and how do you turn a promising squad into a top squad? We may only need 4 top players but its one thing needing 4 top players and its another thing getting them.

As it stands it will probably be another 5 years until we challenge again. Unless we invest in the right players.

Offline -HH-

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Think with the Gerrard news and halfway through the season, we're at the stage where we need to evaluate where we are as a club atm so hope this thread stays. Bit that stuck out to me is that you think we're not far off challenging for the league.

We're miles off at the moment.

As someone who is always an optimist in life, reality is that I don't see much shining light for the club atm. I believe it's got to the point where a lot of posters on here are almost scared of offering any criticism of the club that is constructive for fear of looking negative but a dose of reality is needed.

If I'm truthful with myself, I think we overrate a lot of our players. I try to be as objective as I can about our club these days and I see only 2 standouts: Sterling and Sturridge. (I would include Gerrard but he's not here after this season and Coutinho is too inconsistent).

After that we have few good players, a lot of average players and some poor players. Mixed with a good but inexperienced coach.

Our real level is about 4th IMO. What we're doing is relying on a solid number of our players to fulfil their Potential which doesn't always happen. Reality is one or two real star players make the grade and the rest are sold.

Basically we're in a purgatory right now. The decisions the management take from now will decide where we end up as a club without Gerrard. Getting Sterling signed would be a good start, but ultimately it will go either way. 

Except that I can prove that what you are saying is rubbish by pointing out that this group of players with Suarez and Sturridge DID challenge for the title. It's nothing to do with overrating the ability of those we have at all, or suggesting that what we have is fantastic because if I did that the facts would be completely against me. However you choose to insist that negativity is realism, and ignore that our team last season had one massive player it no longer has and worked in a way that made it greater than the sum of its parts thanks to great coaching and management. You say we only have 2 stand out players and ignore that Chelsea have maybe 5 (Courtois, Matic, Hazard, Costa, Fabregas) and City 3, maybe 4 (Kompany, Toure, Aguero, Zabaleta?) You also ignore that because of the young age of our squad, we have players who could easily go into that bracket (most notably Coutinho) in the near future. Basically what you think is that you weigh up one squad against another and whoever has the best players wins, and ignore coaching a system and having players who suit a system.

Also I suspect so many other clubs in the division have the same idea about their club, they will continue to build and we can find ourselves going sideways. Look at Southampton and West Ham for example, in the space of one window they have matched us.

Except that the difference between us and West Ham in particular (but Southampton also) is that we do have better players than them, and a deeper level of quality in our squad. The reason they are currently above us (and I don't see West Ham staying there) is that they are playing to their strengths and signing players to fit how they want to play in key positions in the team. Our best signings in terms of fitting the system if you look at it have been in attacking midfield (where we were already strong) and at full back. With only a couple of changes o think we'd be right up there. It's easy to say in hindsight but if we get the signings right in central midfield and up front (whether we make them in January or summer) that's probably all it takes to make us a completely different proposition.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline -HH-

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Far away because the last step is always the most difficult one. We have and will have a very young squad and how do you turn a promising squad into a top squad? We may only need 4 top players but its one thing needing 4 top players and its another thing getting them.

As it stands it will probably be another 5 years until we challenge again. Unless we invest in the right players.

Key is to focus on the right positions to strengthen and ensure we get the right type of players to fit the season. A midfielder with good energy and technical ability is probably not that hard to find. A striker with both who can find the net on a regular basis is going to cost a lot of money, and we need to be prepared to do that.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline RK7

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Except that the difference between us and West Ham in particular (but Southampton also) is that we do have better players than them, and a deeper level of quality in our squad. The reason they are currently above us (and I don't see West Ham staying there) is that they are playing to their strengths and signing players to fit how they want to play in key positions in the team. Our best signings in terms of fitting the system if you look at it have been in attacking midfield (where we were already strong) and at full back. With only a couple of changes o think we'd be right up there. It's easy to say in hindsight but if we get the signings right in central midfield and up front (whether we make them in January or summer) that's probably all it takes to make us a completely different proposition.

I'm making the same point then mate (I think), it is all about signing the right players which we didn't. We were possibly an example to a lot of these clubs to be honest, I mean how many went with 2 up top before we did last year? All of a sudden the Diamond is the system of choice again and pace is a key ingredient.

Which is why I will never understand just how it went so wrong for us over the summer, we had a winning formula and just about everyone knew what was needed to take that next step.



Offline Mighty_Red

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A midfielder with good energy and technical ability is probably not that hard to find.

I'd say that we need a midfielder who we want to be at the heart of the team and not just a vital cog so it will be a bit harder to find such a player and persuade them to come to us instead of all the other money-bags clubs. We need to replace a monster with the next monster so hopefully that will be an attractive proposition to many.
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We need a top quality attacker. Either need Sturridge fit or trade in some squaddies for one. In this position because neither Balo nor Markovic have worked out as planned.

As long as we actually use / sign a centre mid to replace Gerrard who has the physical qualities to run, keep up in 1 v 1s, track to go with some tactical awareness, we will become a better team. It's not a hard ask at all to be honest, the average top division mid will do all these things as long as he's physically up to it.

That's 2 areas that are very easy to improve, it's so low that the only area is up.

Should be enough to get a more solid, more penetrative team, how far that can take us, we'll see.



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@HH

The fact that we challenged for the league is great yes and we were playing the best football I've seen us play. I don't wanna take away from our achievements but in context we had an almost ideal set of circumstances to work in too i.e 1 game a week, only 2 major injuries the entire season (6 week layoffs for Gerrard and Sturridge) and a squad of 14/15 max players to manage

On a more level playing field this year with more games and injuries to key players, we are seeing our level. It's so hard to keep getting players to consistently outperform the sum of their parts and we are dealing with the here and now. Not last season. We can keep looking at last season as evidence but then prior evidence also shows we seem to have 1 title challenging year every 5 seasons. Maybe that's because the players we have can't sustain playing at that level. I dunno.

I am not comparing us to City or Chelsea or anyone else but looking objectively at this squad. Aside from Sterling, it's fair to say everyone has been shown up at the top level THIS season so far.

I don't believe everything is doom and gloom. If you look through my previous recent posts I've said there's of course room to develop for this team but potential isn't always fulfilled. The reality is one or two players make the grade and the rest don't and as such we're playing roulette. What we're doing is hoping a whole squad full of young players will all develop into very good players. Not sure if it's gonna work. I also believe our team is good enough to finish 4th consistently.

Again, I'm not trying to be a doom merchant but it's the reality of where I see us at this point. If it sounds negative, then apologies but sometimes the truth isn't sweet to hear. Our future lies with our management, owners and transfer committee this summer because at the moment we're in a bit of limbo going forward.

The positive I can see is we have 6 months to prepare and can only learn from how we cocked up replacing Suarez. But at the moment, it's a dangerous time for us IMO.  The proof will be in the pudding. I hope we get it right this time.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2015, 05:07:53 pm by Studgotelli »

Offline -HH-

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I'd say that we need a midfielder who we want to be at the heart of the team and not just a vital cog so it will be a bit harder to find such a player and persuade them to come to us instead of all the other money-bags clubs. We need to replace a monster with the next monster so hopefully that will be an attractive proposition to many.

In an ideal world, obviously. But we don't need it because Gerrard has never been a monster under Rodgers, but a formerly World Class player with still bags of talent but who had lost his athleticism and was pigeonholed into the system in different ways with varying degrees of success. You get someone with technical ability and athleticism and they don't need to be the next Stevie to significantly improve us.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Online goalrushatgoodison

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Think with the Gerrard news and halfway through the season, we're at the stage where we need to evaluate where we are as a club atm so hope this thread stays. Bit that stuck out to me is that you think we're not far off challenging for the league.

We're miles off at the moment.

As someone who is always an optimist in life, reality is that I don't see much shining light for the club atm. I believe it's got to the point where a lot of posters on here are almost scared of offering any criticism of the club that is constructive for fear of looking negative but a dose of reality is needed.

If I'm truthful with myself, I think we overrate a lot of our players. I try to be as objective as I can about our club these days and I see only 2 standouts: Sterling and Sturridge. (I would include Gerrard but he's not here after this season and Coutinho is too inconsistent).

After that we have few good players, a lot of average players and some poor players. Mixed with a good but inexperienced coach.

Our real level is about 4th IMO. What we're doing is relying on a solid number of our players to fulfil their Potential which doesn't always happen. Reality is one or two real star players make the grade and the rest are sold.

Basically we're in a purgatory right now. The decisions the management take from now will decide where we end up as a club without Gerrard. Getting Sterling signed would be a good start, but ultimately it will go either way.

In life maybe. But not on the Internet obviously
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Offline Loo Pan

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We're miles off at the moment.

What we're doing is relying on a solid number of our players to fulfil their Potential which doesn't always happen. Reality is one or two real star players make the grade and the rest are sold.



Agree with the general sentiment, we are miles off challenging again, but miss out on top 4 and it's likely to be worse than that in the future.

The one or two real star players that make the grade will be sold, and the rest will make up our team.

If we don't turn it round this season and make top 4, which is fortunately still a realistic possibility due to how shite everyone else has been, then I fear another 4/5 year absence from the Champions League beckons with all the debilitating effects that come with it.

Gerrard knows it, that's why he's off.

Offline gallden

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Is that Pogba you mean the Juve player?

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HH, I won't play the three additions game because if we are not going to be realistic there's not much point  ;)

What I will say though is that if the club can hold its nerve with regard to our manager, keep our best players, I.e. Couthinio and Sterling and somehow attract some above average experienced additions ( a keeper, and two more strikers to compliment  Sturridge and Origi would do the trick IMO) we have a very bright future indeed.

There are caveats of course. Firstly keeping Raheem and Phillipe will not be easy in the medium term. Secondly we have a lot of potential in the squad but for that potential to develop the players need to play. it's difficult to see how they can all get enough game time to develop while at the same time challenging for top 4/titles. I recognise we have some experienced players like Skirtel, Lucas, Hendo, Sturridge, , Allen ( johnson wont be here next season) but most of our exciting talent is very young. There is a danger that we will be merely developing potential for other clubs unless we can dovetail team progression with player development. This is not an easy task.

Our manager needs progress in the short term or he won't be our manager. Our team needs progress in the short term or it will lose its best players. Hopefully our owners wil realise this and make those significant additions that are required to take that next step.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2015, 05:37:29 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
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Top work HH
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Good OP
 we are not that far away in my opinion,  we have one of the youngest squads which collectively will get better and even might strangely benefit and harden up from this experience, for me the biggest thing we are lacking is confidence not sure if Dr Peters is still with us but when put under pressure we appear to be mentally weak especially at the back.

If this squad can get a decent winning run going you will see them play the expansive football we are capable of it just the confidence that is lacking and people try to play safe rather than clever at times.

i would say we are two or now three players short ,  a good DM, A striker and a GK, if we can get any of these or better still all of these,  we might be heading for a far better 2nd half to the season.
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Offline The Rootless Tree

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Put Pogba and Aguero into ANY premier league team and said team would probably finish top 4 .

Offline The Rootless Tree

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Last season we were a Lovren away from the title , this season we are an Aguero away from it .

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Honestly, I don't know where we stand. Sometimes I think of last season and the conclusion then is that we miss Sturridge and we lack a top class goalscorer like Suarez. And that's it. We have a young squad and in Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic etc we are likely to see a positive development, which should make us stronger. We have a positive style of play and one that will almost force players to be better and better over time.

Then there's the other side of it. I miss this solid, steady improvement. We had a super edge last season, that perhaps disguised a lot. Without it, what's left to build on? Our defence has never been that good under Rodgers. We've spent a fortune on it and despite this, I want Skrtel and Toure on the pitch. I also sense that we are back in the same trap we were in under GH. We think our young players will become superstars. If only given more time. The danger with this is we begin to create a false image of how good we are. How many goals have we seen from Balotelli, Borini, Markovic, Sterling, Coutinho,...? For a comparison - what about Charlie Austin? Cisse? Sakho (West Ham's striker)? We are also beginning to talk about the age of the squad, the depth of it and we say we are doing the right things. But are we? Really? When we have been successful, we have not had a huge squad. We have played very, very good players a lot. And complained about lack of depth. And when we have struggled, we have written long lists of players and said we have had such a good squad.

What I'd like to believe, is that we are 2-3 players off. Get Sturridge back and add a couple of high quality players. Somewhere in the team. It was enough with Suarez and Sturridge, so it should be possible to get back up there with two or three signings.

        * * * * * *


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Offline na fir dearg

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Dont think we are too far away either.

Commanding goalkeeper, play the right centre halves, proper covering midfielder(s) in front of the defence.

Another top quality striker to partner Sturridge.

Big question for me is will the club fork out the necessary fees/wages to make it happen

Offline stockdam

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Rather than talk about players I'd rather talk about the style of play. Last year we played some of the best football that I have seen. We also had the most exciting player in the league so to say that we are a long way off is nonsense. Yes if you look at individual players then the team doesn't look as good but I can remember the same about some of our teams that dominated Europe and the League; we didn't have superstars but we had a great team.

Losing Suarez was a great loss and losing Gerrard will also be a great loss but we need to look forwards.

This year has been disappointing but when Coutinho and Lallana play well the the flowing football is there.

We just need to add a bit more steel at the back, get another superstar midfielder and a great attacker. Look at how we played at our best with Torres and Suarez at their best; we can do that again with Sturridge.

Markovic and Can look like they will develop into good players. Bring in a couple of good signings and we'll see big improvements.

Oh and we now need a Captain who will lead from the front .
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Offline -HH-

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Put Pogba and Aguero into ANY premier league team and said team would probably finish top 4 .


The players are unimportant, it's their style more than anything. You could make it Sanchez and Schneiderlin if it makes you feel better.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Online TepidT2O

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Rather than talk about players I'd rather talk about the style of play. Last year we played some of the best football that I have seen. We also had the most exciting player in the league so to say that we are a long way off is nonsense. Yes if you look at individual players then the team doesn't look as good but I can remember the same about some of our teams that dominated Europe and the League; we didn't have superstars but we had a great team.

Losing Suarez was a great loss and losing Gerrard will also be a great loss but we need to look forwards.

This year has been disappointing but when Coutinho and Lallana play well the the flowing football is there.

We just need to add a bit more steel at the back, get another superstar midfielder and a great attacker. Look at how we played at our best with Torres and Suarez at their best; we can do that again with Sturridge.

Markovic and Can look like they will develop into good players. Bring in a couple of good signings and we'll see big improvements.

Oh and we now need a Captain who will lead from the front .
Markovic.. I think he could be a great player for us.

People saying he was the best talent in Europe since messi and Ronaldo when we signed him.... Fingers crossed eh?
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Offline killer-heels

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Honestly, I don't know where we stand. Sometimes I think of last season and the conclusion then is that we miss Sturridge and we lack a top class goalscorer like Suarez. And that's it. We have a young squad and in Coutinho, Sterling, Markovic etc we are likely to see a positive development, which should make us stronger. We have a positive style of play and one that will almost force players to be better and better over time.

Then there's the other side of it. I miss this solid, steady improvement. We had a super edge last season, that perhaps disguised a lot. Without it, what's left to build on? Our defence has never been that good under Rodgers. We've spent a fortune on it and despite this, I want Skrtel and Toure on the pitch. I also sense that we are back in the same trap we were in under GH. We think our young players will become superstars. If only given more time. The danger with this is we begin to create a false image of how good we are. How many goals have we seen from Balotelli, Borini, Markovic, Sterling, Coutinho,...? For a comparison - what about Charlie Austin? Cisse? Sakho (West Ham's striker)? We are also beginning to talk about the age of the squad, the depth of it and we say we are doing the right things. But are we? Really? When we have been successful, we have not had a huge squad. We have played very, very good players a lot. And complained about lack of depth. And when we have struggled, we have written long lists of players and said we have had such a good squad.

What I'd like to believe, is that we are 2-3 players off. Get Sturridge back and add a couple of high quality players. Somewhere in the team. It was enough with Suarez and Sturridge, so it should be possible to get back up there with two or three signings.

Its a good point about a potentially good squad. We wait but lose a key player here and there and we are back at square 1. My opinion is this is what Gerrard might have thought when making his decision that here is a squad that is back at square 1 and does he want to go through another transition?

Offline Upinsmoke

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Realistically we probably need three players. Despite our horrific lack of (good) strikers, I don't think we need one. I believe Sturridge, Origi and one of lambert or balotelli would suffice. Because the former two give us movement and that's what we need from our number 9's.

It's my opinion that we have a team that is very much in it's infancy given the age of them. Especially our attacking midfielders and full backs. You look at Flanagan and manquillo competing for the right back position. Moreno is good at left back and will only improve way beyond just good one he adapts and gets the necessary experience. The attacking midfield is where it get's really exciting, aside from still having sterling, coutinho and markovic who are all still young, we have, ibe, wilson, kent, ojo, canos. It's truly exciting and there typical brendan rodgers players, lots of movement, pacy, versatile etc. For me we have by far the most talented crop of young attacking players in england both in the first team and below. So that's exciting, realistically we could be sorted there for the foreseeable future.

So what we require in simple terms is a goalkeeper akin to Reina when he joined. Not a star as yet, but high quality and great potential. Defensively we need a leader, a hyypia, a carragher. Very difficult players to find but not impossible, although i can only thing of one player who has come from oversea's who had lead with as much quality as he's had defensively and that's Kompany. Can Lovren be that player, the jury is out for me but i'm not one who's gonna throw in the towel on his career here. I have a sneaky suspicion he could yet be that leader alongside someone like sakho.

Finally, we need to find a gerrard in his prime. Ok impossible but we need to get as close to that as we can, pogba is the most realistic candidate, atheltic, strong, technically brilliant, good at both ends.

It's not all doom and gloom but we do need the above if we are to mount a challenge ever again.

Offline walshys_mullet

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Surprise, surprise but I'm going against the grain here.

I'm fairly negative regarding the club these days, in fact I'd go as far as to say I'm really pessimistic about everything the club is these days. But I was never always like that. Things change with the premier league and everything the game stood for.

I think we are miles off, on and off the field. Firstly on the field. I think last year was a chance happening. A coming together if you will of several differing factors to give us or best chance in years and we couldn't take it for a multitude of reasons. I also think that hindsight is a wonderful thing. We were exciting to watch last season in the second half, but we've been exciting to watch under Evans and Rafa. We do go through phases of exciting football, our games have always encompassed drama like no other, it seems to follow us about. I think last year was no different to Houlliers treble season or Rafa's 2nd place finish.

In our current position I don't feel we have the manager, the players, the backroom staff and the owners to sustain and build consistent success. In regards to Rodgers, sure he's inexperienced and he supposedly learning but he gets so many of the fundamentals wrong it scares the crap out of me. It feels like last season and this season he has stumbled on an approach more by luck than design. You only need to look at his decision making, even in the last two games to see this. He gets more wrong than he does right. And if last year was by design why change it this season and buy the wrong personnel?

Playing staff wise we have some potentials to greatness, but you get a feeling that because we will always be playing catch up that as these players peak they will be off to somewhere new where challenging for honours is a given and well make a nice profit. We never think of the now only of the future. We continually build and build and build. Last January with a league challenge in our midst we stuck with a couple of loaners and Aspas. Where was the will to turn it into something great? We ran out of steam towards the end because we had nothing to call upon off the bench that might have seen us through Chelsea or Palace, only Victor fucking Moses.

What we've always needed in the last 20-30 years at crucial times is to make that final step of the build and each time we've blown it. And we did it again this year. We needed a team with a mix of potential and real quality but our shopping this summer didn't reflect that and now our position shows that.

Now maybe I'm just spoilt being brought up on success and seeing some truly great sides win week in and week out but it feels like we are always on the peripheral. And each year a team from the periphal does something unique before returning to it.

Off the field I get the feeling we are being run in close proximity to the Arsenal model except we arnt quite prepared to pay for a few 'big' players. And i guess that's understandable. Our owners are business orientated and as long as we turn a profit, on field events will always come second. And if you look at how we perform under FSG you'll see they are excellent at securing commercial revenue, in fact up there with the very best but have been lousy in player recruitment, whether it's been wages and fees, the staff we employ or the setup with recruitment, we come across as foolish and second rate.

My love for the game and the club has dwindled that's for sure. I still grasp onto the last few signs of life I have for this one great club but I find myself watching past games on YouTube to satisfy myself. Once Gerrard has left there will no longer be any of that legend stuff in An field, and we will truly be into a new phase for this club.

But no, I don't look at this team and think we are 2-3 players away, it's much deeper than that, its the attitude from top to bottom and we lack a hunger and will to win in all departments in my opinion. Rafa had us as close to greatness - I truly thought we were 1 or 2 players away from sustainable greatness, but he made mistakes (Alonso) and the club sold out to a couple of chancers and the opportunity was lost.

Negative I know but that's how I feel.
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Offline RK7

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Good honest post W_M.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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We're far, because the other teams have the means to ££improve££ and we pick players viaour scouting system Soccer-Player-Scout-O-Matic computer program ran by nerds who know nothing about football with the approval of a snake who is the owner's yes man....let me grab some Ayre....ok, I'm back.

We have a flawed management system and we will keep making the same wasteful mistakes time and time again unless FSG wake up and realize the system is flawed and has cost us a ton of ££ and progress.

I would have more trust in ownership and management if they had Ian R, Phil T, Robbie F, John B, Kenny, TRUE Redmen -for example- in managerial/ executive roles at the club.

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Aguero?

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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It feels like last season and this season he has stumbled on an approach more by luck than design. You only need to look at his decision making, even in the last two games to see this. He gets more wrong than he does right. And if last year was by design why change it this season and buy the wrong personnel?


Said it a while ago and got shouted down. The more i see the more i am inclined to think he "got lucky" last season. I for one massively underestimated the "Suarez effect", not so much in his brilliance but in the effect he had on the rest of the team. We have no one left on the pitch with that level of determination to win.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Said it a while ago and got shouted down. The more i see the more i am inclined to think he "got lucky" last season. I for one massively underestimated the "Suarez effect", not so much in his brilliance but in the effect he had on the rest of the team. We have no one left on the pitch with that level of determination to win.

Such a surprise , never thought you felt this way,  ::) :boring

did Rodgers steal your toys or something?

Every thread you slag him off
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Gnurglan

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Its a good point about a potentially good squad. We wait but lose a key player here and there and we are back at square 1. My opinion is this is what Gerrard might have thought when making his decision that here is a squad that is back at square 1 and does he want to go through another transition?

Yes, it's been our dilemma. We shape a good side and then we lose key players. And we have to start over. It would be great if we, for once, could keep our best players and make adjustments to the rest of the squad. Instead we lose that key player and add a couple of players as the replacement solution. And the effect is not that we get stronger, rather that we dilute the squad. I'd like us to go the other way. Remove the players that don't play much and add first team regulars. We should focus on the first team, not the squad.

I believe your point about Gerrard is valid, could well be the case about the transition. I think I read somewhere that he talked about us losing Suarez (and Alonso), when we needed to keep them and build on what we had.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Aguero?
Our "negotiating" team would end up paying £150m. for him though, and then we'd play him at right back or something.  :P

Offline killer-heels

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Yes, it's been our dilemma. We shape a good side and then we lose key players. And we have to start over. It would be great if we, for once, could keep our best players and make adjustments to the rest of the squad. Instead we lose that key player and add a couple of players as the replacement solution. And the effect is not that we get stronger, rather that we dilute the squad. I'd like us to go the other way. Remove the players that don't play much and add first team regulars. We should focus on the first team, not the squad.

I believe your point about Gerrard is valid, could well be the case about the transition. I think I read somewhere that he talked about us losing Suarez (and Alonso), when we needed to keep them and build on what we had.
Carragher also said that if he felt we could have challenged for the title then he would have stayed. Maybe if we were where Utd are now his decision would have been different? Only he knows.

Does it also illustrate to us the cold hard facts about progress and the time it takes? Players look at themselves first and whilst us as fans might see a team who will challenge in a couple of years, players want success or a big illustration of progress now. We back managers and say give them a 3 or 4 year plan, but will players think like that?

Offline Gnurglan

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Put Pogba and Aguero into ANY premier league team and said team would probably finish top 4 .


See, this is more in line with how I think we should act. Forget the names there, it's the idea that is important. Replace Suarez with a striker of the highest quality AND a regular starter in midfield. That would have made our first team stronger. If we did it like that, we'd build from the core. This summer, and before that, we have removed a core player and signed a couple of squad players. It's not more players who can play 20 games/season we need. It's players we expect to play almost every single league game we should search for. And that kind of narrows it down. It's easiest with the attacking players. We're talking 15 goals/season and above. That's what we need, nothing less. Or players that give us 15 points if we're talking goals and assists. We pay to get them. The rest we gamble on (spend little money), or even loan them in.

This should be applied now. No more potential. Buy players who are expected to go straight in to the first eleven. If we don't think a player can do that, don't sign him.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez