Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15  (Read 249219 times)

Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

  • Jiggerer Pokerer. He was watching, he was watching, he was watching it on Sky. He was watching it on Sky!
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • We return to our place as football Royalty.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1360 on: April 11, 2015, 11:19:07 am »
Exactly right PoP.  The outcome should be shared and highly visible, but more emphasis should be on how to get there through performance and process measures.  Otherwise you could have false success when you achieve an outcome even though you underperformed, or failed to meet an outcome even though you over-performed.

It would seem to me that there is a hierarchy of goals, in that 'success' in the Outcome goals is a product of the Process & Performance goals. Also, how do you assess whether you have "false success" (false positives) or "underperformed..." (false negatives)? There is an obvious summative method by checking at the end of the game/ season whether you actually achieved your desired goal(s) (such as points total or league position). However, it would also require a formative method to be able to assess 'in game'. Whether that be during training, a game and/ or at some point in the season. My feeling is that the assessment method(s) become part of the process.

The difficulty with assessing sports performance (a subject i don't know anything about) is that I don't think it can be done with direct ref. to set/ external criteria. It can't all be 'objective' assessment, so it has to be largely subjective.
Lesser Redneck Shitehawk

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1361 on: April 11, 2015, 12:06:54 pm »
It would seem to me that there is a hierarchy of goals, in that 'success' in the Outcome goals is a product of the Process & Performance goals. Also, how do you assess whether you have "false success" (false positives) or "underperformed..." (false negatives)? There is an obvious summative method by checking at the end of the game/ season whether you actually achieved your desired goal(s) (such as points total or league position). However, it would also require a formative method to be able to assess 'in game'. Whether that be during training, a game and/ or at some point in the season. My feeling is that the assessment method(s) become part of the process.

The difficulty with assessing sports performance (a subject i don't know anything about) is that I don't think it can be done with direct ref. to set/ external criteria. It can't all be 'objective' assessment, so it has to be largely subjective.
Well the in game data provides a lot of opportunities for objective targets and measures.  Pass frequency can be used as a measure of speed of play for example.  Then things like chance creation, or number of attacking third entries or penatrations etc.

The key with any data is to select the right data to focus on and then be prepared to think differently about it.  E.g. the idea that most goals come from three or few passes after regain led to long ball football and the basis of English football's direct approach and coaching methodology which was very one dimensional.  The problem being that too much emphasis was placed on an incomplete category of data.

As a football fan, I don't get hung up the data as I don't have access to the full set and I don't know what the coaches have briefed the team about for that match.  What I do pay some attention to is how likely we are to win certain games, how much we control the games we should be winning and how we try to prevent the opposition controlling games we would see as more difficult.  Very subjective really, but that's what being a fan is.  If I was the manager, I'd have a balance between the two.  I'd look at data to support what I thought my eyes were telling me or reveal things I'd missed.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1362 on: April 11, 2015, 12:09:26 pm »
Prof - Shouldn't Spurs be on -23?

Burnley Away = Par 3

Result a Draw = -2
Oops

Good spot, thanks.  I'll change it when I do the next update.

Offline GG8

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,107
  • Löndön is Red.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1363 on: April 11, 2015, 12:28:50 pm »
Probably dreaming here but the run in has Chelsea with a lot of tricky Par 3's and the chance of dropping points in both tables.

QPR away
United at home
Liverpool at home
West Brom away

Also have Arsenal and Crystal Palace who are in good form, and Leicester and Sunderland who have picked up their first wins in a while and might be trying for one last push at safety.

Could we see them slip into a negative score on the APLT for the first time this season over the coming weeks? Arsenal can get to -5 at best for the season, if we win our remaining games. Is a drop of 7 points to par a possibility for this Chelsea team given the fixtures they have? Can they be caught?

Offline LFCsupporter

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,770
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1364 on: April 11, 2015, 12:30:53 pm »
Probably dreaming here but the run in has Chelsea with a lot of tricky Par 3's and the chance of dropping points in both tables.

QPR away
United at home
Liverpool at home
West Brom away

Also have Arsenal and Crystal Palace who are in good form, and Leicester and Sunderland who have picked up their first wins in a while and might be trying for one last push at safety.

Could we see them slip into a negative score on the APLT for the first time this season over the coming weeks? Arsenal can get to -5 at best for the season, if we win our remaining games. Is a drop of 7 points to par a possibility for this Chelsea team given the fixtures they have? Can they be caught?
Doubt it.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1365 on: April 11, 2015, 12:32:12 pm »
Possible, but not probable.  It would be great to see though.

Offline GG8

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,107
  • Löndön is Red.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1366 on: April 11, 2015, 12:35:49 pm »
Doubt it.

Possible, but not probable.  It would be great to see though.

Yep, my head says the same. Their performances over the last two weekends where two GK blunders have handed them the six points has lit something in my heart that I can't shift though.

If there is even a slight chance, I think they need to drop points tomorrow which will put them under pressure for the visit of the Mancs next week.

Offline tyrolean_red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,031
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1367 on: April 11, 2015, 12:55:58 pm »
Had a look at the remaining fixtures. We will be guaranteed to make up at least 2 points on top tomorrow, maybe even three if we get our shit together and beat newcastle. That means we have to make up at least 5 points in the last 6 games. Still think we can make top 4. Our only tough game is chelsea away. Can we still do it?
Thank you Stevie! It was a pleasure.

Offline BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,915
  • BoRac
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1368 on: April 11, 2015, 01:00:13 pm »
Can we still do it?

Doubt it, but if we win all our remaining games, our best chance is probably still to catch Man Utd. We'd need them to lose to City, Chelsea and Arsenal, or drop points somewhere else.

Personally, I can see Utd dropping nine points, but I can't see us winning all our remaining games.

Offline tyrolean_red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,031
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1369 on: April 11, 2015, 01:02:08 pm »
Doubt it, but if we win all our remaining games, our best chance is probably still to catch Man Utd. We'd need them to lose to City, Chelsea and Arsenal, or drop points somewhere else.

Personally, I can see Utd dropping nine points, but I can't see us winning all our remaining games.
Will united will all their remaining games par those three. We looked a good bet for top 4 3 weeks ago and lost to two rivals. Could easily happen to united also. They also have to visit goodison.
Thank you Stevie! It was a pleasure.

Offline rickardinho1

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,138
  • The Earth is Flat
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1370 on: April 11, 2015, 01:18:25 pm »
Will united will all their remaining games par those three. We looked a good bet for top 4 3 weeks ago and lost to two rivals. Could easily happen to united also. They also have to visit goodison.
As in, the same Goodison who's fans cheered for City in last season's run-in game? Don't see it happening - if there's a chance for us to get 4th Everton would roll over for United just as they did for City last year.

Offline farawayred

  • Whizz For Atomms. Nucular boffin. A Mars A Day Helps Him Work, Rest And Play
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,765
  • Oh yes, I'm a believer!
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1371 on: April 11, 2015, 07:27:14 pm »
That's exactly how my first relationships went :D
First or second part of the quoted sentence?  ;D
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,597
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1372 on: April 12, 2015, 09:40:34 am »
Had a look at the remaining fixtures. We will be guaranteed to make up at least 2 points on top tomorrow, maybe even three if we get our shit together and beat newcastle. That means we have to make up at least 5 points in the last 6 games. Still think we can make top 4. Our only tough game is chelsea away. Can we still do it?

Its doable but we would have to win all our remaining games and i very much doubt we will do that. Players are human and they probably feel top four is gone and it would be hard to get yourself motivated for some games.

Offline drmick

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,729
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1373 on: April 12, 2015, 10:14:41 am »
Had a look at the remaining fixtures. We will be guaranteed to make up at least 2 points on top tomorrow, maybe even three if we get our shit together and beat newcastle. That means we have to make up at least 5 points in the last 6 games. Still think we can make top 4. Our only tough game is chelsea away. Can we still do it?

Did you watch the Blackburn game(s)?  ;)

Offline tyrolean_red

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,031
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1374 on: April 12, 2015, 10:15:31 am »
Did you watch the Blackburn game(s)?  ;)
Actually no. Was it that bad?
Thank you Stevie! It was a pleasure.

Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

  • Jiggerer Pokerer. He was watching, he was watching, he was watching it on Sky. He was watching it on Sky!
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • We return to our place as football Royalty.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1375 on: April 12, 2015, 01:42:31 pm »
Well the in game data provides a lot of opportunities for objective targets and measures.  Pass frequency can be used as a measure of speed of play for example.  Then things like chance creation, or number of attacking third entries or penatrations etc.

The key with any data is to select the right data to focus on and then be prepared to think differently about it.  E.g. the idea that most goals come from three or few passes after regain led to long ball football and the basis of English football's direct approach and coaching methodology which was very one dimensional.  The problem being that too much emphasis was placed on an incomplete category of data.

As a football fan, I don't get hung up the data as I don't have access to the full set and I don't know what the coaches have briefed the team about for that match.  What I do pay some attention to is how likely we are to win certain games, how much we control the games we should be winning and how we try to prevent the opposition controlling games we would see as more difficult.  Very subjective really, but that's what being a fan is.  If I was the manager, I'd have a balance between the two.  I'd look at data to support what I thought my eyes were telling me or reveal things I'd missed.

This is where I have a problem with the whole concept of 'objective' data in some fields like sport. The only reliable data is summative, such as the final league table. While in-game data can be/ is used, it must be taken with a large pinch of salt because, while it is intended to be objective at best it's subject to considerable error. E.g. shots on target; around three sides of the target area you'd have to allow at least a ball Dia. even before you take into account the accuracy of your measurement/ assessment method. So you end up with a metric which may have such a large degree of error that it becomes invalid. If you're using that in conjunction with other metrics, which each have their intrinsic failings & associated degrees of error...you're accumulating error into your overall assessment. That's OK, so long as you're aware of this 'suspect' data and take it into consideration...but how many are/ do?

I agree with you that what does count is taking the most appropriate data into consideration. Nate Silver's book 'The signal and the noise' has been mentioned in here before and it points out the importance of picking out the meaningful metrics data from all that is available (This is one of the reasons why the APLT is so good). However, you still have to be able both assess the data itself and its validity as a useful metric. E.g. goal assists; There's no end of stats given to us on Strikers/ Attacking Mid's goals assists. I'm always a bit doubtful whether this actually measures a player contribution to a side, in the sense of putting the playing strategy/tactics into effect. If your own tendency is to view suspect data as 100% accurate, even picking valid metrics is loaded with problems, let alone whether you interpret the data correctly.

When we get to the area of a fan assessing "how likely" it is whether we do this or that...it makes me feel light headed. One man's highly likely is another man's highly improbable, so how do we decide? It must be on the objective interpretation of some rational idea/ accepted data. If any data based model is useful for accurately describing the present it must be a useful tool for assessing the future. I would say that using the available data and try to be objective/ accurate is very hard, even when you're trying and impossible when you're not.
Lesser Redneck Shitehawk

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1376 on: April 13, 2015, 09:58:56 pm »



Offline Blinis

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1377 on: April 13, 2015, 10:48:51 pm »
As said before, getting to 71 points at the end of May is doable, but not sure that it will be enough. Trust the model :p

And Southampton is still in the mix!
What do Fernando Hierro, Carles Puyol, Philipp Lahm, Andres Iniesta, Iker Casillas, Sergio Ramos and Jordan Henderson share in common?

Offline elpistolero7

  • Biggest waste of space in history.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,057
  • What's in a name anyway? No, I'm not bitter.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1378 on: April 13, 2015, 10:52:43 pm »
I'd like Southampton to keep their form up, that last day game vs. City could be absolutely massive.

We need to win 5 from the next 6 to have any chance, ideally get a draw at Chelsea too. 16 points, hope City get 11.

Tottenham beating City a few weeks from now could bring them right back in it as well...
What belongs to you, but is used by others?

Offline johnny74

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,725
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1379 on: April 15, 2015, 10:05:52 pm »
Time to stick up some fixture comparisons?

Man City's run in looks rather simple doesn't it?

Offline exiledintheUSA

  • Not to be confused with Darren from Thetford. Or Phil Dowd.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 27,334
  • Justice HAS come. YNWA 97
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1380 on: April 15, 2015, 10:07:26 pm »
Time to stick up some fixture comparisons?

Man City's run in looks rather simple doesn't it?

No more simple than their last 5 games.
Been all over the world but Anfield is still my home.

Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

  • Jiggerer Pokerer. He was watching, he was watching, he was watching it on Sky. He was watching it on Sky!
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • We return to our place as football Royalty.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1381 on: April 17, 2015, 02:57:49 pm »
As said before, getting to 71 points at the end of May is doable, but not sure that it will be enough. Trust the model :p

And Southampton is still in the mix!

Yes, it's time to trust the model. I notice more recently that postings in here are more concerned with estimating points from available games & comparing the relative difficulty of run-in fixtures for various teams and not focusing the debate through the APLT as much.

Looking at what we have to do to dislodge Cithe from 'our' 4th spot. They're currently on -15 APLT par points after 32 games. That's an average of -0.468 APLT par points per game. Over the remaining games that average would put them on -18 APLT par (a finish of 72 PL table pts). If they play to par from here, they'll finish on 75 PL pts.

We're currently on -19 APLT points after 32 games, projecting a finish of -23 APLT points (a finish of 67 PL table pts). If we play to APLT par from here we'll finish on 71 PL pts.

Given that we only have two opportunities to play above APLT 'par' left (Away at Chelsea & Stoke). By most assessments of required results in here, most of us would be expecting us to beat Stoke anyway (which is not an easy game), it suggests that we may actually need to beat Chelsea in order to reach 71pts.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:19:11 pm by I-was-there »
Lesser Redneck Shitehawk

Offline myrlas

  • Powered by YaMH (Yet another Mister Happy)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,199
  • Twitter: @myrlas
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1382 on: April 27, 2015, 08:24:10 am »
Any update here anytime soon, Prof?
"Football is simple, you're either on time, or you're too late. If you're too late then you have to leave earlier." Johan Cruyff

Offline johnny74

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,725
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1383 on: April 28, 2015, 01:13:41 pm »
Assuming WBA was a par result. Doesn't make it any easier though.

Offline justsean

  • Two goals in his first two minutes of match commentary. Take a bow...
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,847
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1384 on: April 28, 2015, 03:59:05 pm »
Presume this table has us well out of the reckoning for top 4 at this stage?

Offline Michel

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,070
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1385 on: April 28, 2015, 04:28:32 pm »
Chelsea   +2            33 P
Arsenal    -10           33 P
Man City  -15           34 P
Man Utd   -15          34 P
Liverpool  -21          33 P
Southampton -23    34 P
Spurs   -24              34 P


It's a fight for the 5th place. 


If we win all our games we'll finish at -17.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 04:34:43 pm by Michel »

Offline MerseyParadise

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Wool son of Scotty road 'arl fella
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1386 on: April 28, 2015, 05:17:10 pm »
Yet 73 points would have been enough to finish inside the top 4 in all but 3 seasons since 1992....
Insert obscure quote here

Offline xosder

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 122
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1387 on: April 28, 2015, 07:27:13 pm »
Assuming WBA was a par result. Doesn't make it any easier though.

We dropped 2 points at West Brom.  It was a par 3 game.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1388 on: April 29, 2015, 06:59:10 am »
Any update here anytime soon, Prof?
Sorry.  Work has been manic.  I'll try to sort this evening.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1389 on: May 1, 2015, 05:14:09 am »



Offline kcbworth

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,158
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop

Offline Passmaster Molby

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,126
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1391 on: May 1, 2015, 06:14:06 am »
Good lord, just shows that since week 29 our form has fell off the cliff. This season can't end soon enough :(

Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

  • Jiggerer Pokerer. He was watching, he was watching, he was watching it on Sky. He was watching it on Sky!
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • We return to our place as football Royalty.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1392 on: May 1, 2015, 07:56:44 am »
It makes your heart bleed. At the start of the season I'd never have thought this would happen.
Lesser Redneck Shitehawk

Offline LFCsupporter

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,770
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1393 on: May 1, 2015, 09:33:26 am »
Two months ago we were talking about needing a footballer in goal.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,597
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1394 on: May 1, 2015, 09:38:46 am »
Two months ago we were talking about needing a footballer in goal.

Now we need goals in our footballers.

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,062
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1395 on: May 4, 2015, 10:41:12 pm »



Offline DaveCharlie

  • RAWK Hidden Gem #1
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,309
  • Former Formbyite, in Australia, was back, now NZ
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1396 on: May 7, 2015, 08:00:48 am »


Thanks Prof... there's a little glimmer of light in that tunnel... not sure if its a train or a glorious sunset yet, but its something!!!
« Last Edit: May 7, 2015, 08:02:51 am by DaveCharlie »

Offline richiedouglas

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,116
  • You feed beefburgers to swans!
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1397 on: May 7, 2015, 09:20:11 am »
I love this thread.

Pretty sure that statistically, our chances of getting top 4 are now lower than 3% (I read this so don't shoot me down).

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,994
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1398 on: May 12, 2015, 03:22:16 pm »
Ah well. At least this thread now allows us the opportunity to have a good old laugh at the posters who were convinced Southampton were about to win the title.
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA

Offline Hij

  • Literally Custom-titlely neglected for literally over a decade, Ruud.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,025
  • Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97.
    • Grime Forum
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #1399 on: May 13, 2015, 12:51:19 am »
Ah well. At least this thread now allows us the opportunity to have a good old laugh at the posters who were convinced Southampton were about to win the title.
;D
Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97. Justice for the Survivors.

Istanbul 2005. Athens 2007. Basel 2016. Kiev 2018. Madrid 2019. Paris 2022.