Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[El_Pistolero]

It's a highly random and broad insult is why I didn't believe it. And correct me if I am wrong, but your club's statement only mentions that Evra admits insulting Suarez; no indication of a reference to race. Surely if that allegation had legs, as soon as Suarez was charged (at the very latest), he would have made a counter claim to the FA. So I am very skeptical of that actually being the case.

Our statement mentioned that Suarez hadn't heard Evra say anything, but Evra did include it in his statement.

[SP]

It's a highly random and broad insult is why I didn't believe it.

Only in English. In Spanish it is a common pejorative. You are applying English nuance to a Spanish conversation. That does not work.

[Stussy]

It's a highly random and broad insult is why I didn't believe it. And correct me if I am wrong, but your club's statement only mentions that Evra admits insulting Suarez; no indication of a reference to race. Surely if that allegation had legs, as soon as Suarez was charged (at the very latest), he would have made a counter claim to the FA. So I am very skeptical of that actually being the case.

Your skepticism is worthless.

Evra admits to referring to his ethnicity - Suarez says he didn't hear it. That is what it says in the LFC statement. Go and read it.

What we have here is an admission by Evra under oath that he made a reference to Suarez's ethnicity, and there is mounting speculation that he used a pejorative hate word considered one of the worst in the Spanish language, to do so.

All you are proving is that as a manc you are seeing what you want to see. And everything will be addressed in good time and in appeal.

Now, please answer, is Hernandez a racist for using the word negrito when he uses it as a term analogous to 'mate'?

If you insist on it, surely you should be reporting him to the FA?

[Chakan]

Only in English. In Spanish it is a common pejorative. You are applying English nuance to a Spanish conversation. That does not work.

Which is quite frankly the crux on the entire matter at hand is it not?

[Pata]

Don't you know Dennis writes a regular column for the Staffordshires local paper the Sentinel. Owned by Daily Mail and General Trust.

This definitely qualifies him to adjudicate on a Spanish-language exchange between a Frenchman and a Uruguayan.

[MichaelA]

Still, "mate" can refer to anyone from any race whereas "negr(it)o" refers to specifically darker skinned people. It is undeniably a reference to skin colour/race. You cannot erase that from the word, Suarez would have been aware of that. Correct?

I accept and I think everyone accepts that the word in question is not neccesarily racist. But it can be used in a racially abusive context. Which when you consider the circumstances, having an argument with Evra (and allegedly repeating the word), there's a strong chance it was used to wind him up.

A white British person can use the word 'mate' in a variety of different scenarios and depending upon how it's used it can indicate straightforward friendliness, or it can be a pointed way of suggesting that someone has stepped over the line. I'll give you an example.

"Thanks very much for your contribution mate, but your views are not welcome here". Mate can be spoken in a manner that is anything but matey and could be used in a menacing or threatening manner. I'm sure you can think of circumstances in which you have done this yourself or have experience of others using it against you. I've seen and been involved in incidents in games of five a side which have had some heated exchanges after a crunchy tackle. The injured party (usually me) refers to the perpetrator as a 'mate' - 'Watch what you're fucking doing, mate'. It's a well established verbal technique to communicate a passive/aggressive point of view. Or it is for me anyway.

So Suarez could easily use negrito - which is in his default cultural terms of reference - in a similar context without it actually being a racist term. Culturally he's used to using that word in a variety of different scenarios and contexts for him. Furthermore, he doesn't honestly strike me as one of the brightest candles on the birthday cake. Expecting Luis to think through the cultural impact of using the word negrito in a heat of the moment clash with the cheese eating surrender monkey Patrice Evra seems to me to be placing a series of values on the player that are outwith his upbringing and sensibilities.

[Dr Manhattan]

See? There's nothing new being offered up by this Prince fella. What we've all learned so far is that he's believed Suarez has said the words people are using in the media, but fails to believe that Evra may have used the insult he's rumoured to have used.

Wonderful. I feel so much more enlightened now. I did NOT see that coming.

[Mutton Geoff]

Believe it or not it was intended to provoke thought on the topic not to plant a landmine for me to throw myself onto. It seems I was expecting too much.

The irony is I've actually paraphrased much of the above from a discussion with a head of an ethics committee board who has published numerous articles relating to cultural awareness.  He actually used the analogy of 'would I be more wary of a gypsy knocking on my front door or an 80 year old woman'? Essentially saying how can any of us truly say we are without prejudice of some sort? It's a pity you weren't there, I'm sure you'd have been able to contribute a lot to the discussion.

I am only prejudiced about sarcastic people who are so up themselves, so I we leave that thought with you!

Other than to add I operate in a multicultural environment and actually deal with these matters fairly often.

However you may be right in one way, I guess there is no glass in your greenhouse!

[Stussy]

Only in English. In Spanish it is a common pejorative. You are applying English nuance to a Spanish conversation. That does not work.

Exactly correct.

In Spanish it is considered one of the worst ethnic slurs.

If Evra said it, I don't believe he actually understood the resonance of what it means. He admitted to it under oath, meaning he was honest about using it.

[belfast-connection]

See? There's nothing new being offered up by this Prince fella. What we've all learned so far is that he's believed Suarez has said the words people are using in the media, but fails to believe that Evra may have used the insult he's rumoured to have used.

Wonderful. I feel so much more enlightened now. I did NOT see that coming.

we've also learned that he is NOT a wind up merchant

but he'll probably tell us that negrito is a term of racist abuse again now - i haven't heard that before

5...4....3....................

[MikaelLFC]

A French mate of mine just asked a Spaniard living in South America re: relative abusive connotations of sudaca and negrito. In this lad's opinion, Sudaca >>>>>> Negrito.

Sudaca actually has a really pejorative connotation to it whereas negrito doesn't.

The world has gone FUBAR, if anybody really should charge anyone for racism it should be us charging Evra!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

A white British person can use the word 'mate' in a variety of different scenarios and depending upon how it's used it can indicate straightforward friendliness, or it can be a pointed way of suggesting that someone has stepped over the line. I'll give you an example.

"Thanks very much for your contribution mate, but your views are not welcome here". Mate can be spoken in a manner that is anything but matey and could be used in a menacing or threatening manner. I'm sure you can think of circumstances in which you have done this yourself or have experience of others using it against you. I've seen and been involved in incidents in games of five a side which have had some heated exchanges after a crunchy tackle. The injured party (usually me) refers to the perpetrator as a 'mate' - 'Watch what you're fucking doing, mate'. It's a well established verbal technique to communicate a passive/aggressive point of view. Or it is for me anyway.

So Suarez could easily use negrito - which is in his default cultural terms of reference - in a similar context without it actually being a racist term. Culturally he's used to using that word in a variety of different scenarios and contexts for him. Furthermore, he doesn't honestly strike me as one of the brightest candles on the birthday cake. Expecting Luis to think through the cultural impact of using the word negrito in a heat of the moment clash with the cheese eating surrender monkey Patrice Evra seems to me to be placing a series of values on the player that are outwith his upbringing and sensibilities.

[jooneyisdagod]

Poyet thinks, as others have suggested, that Suarez might have used the word "negrito", and that it was misinterpreted by Evra. "In Uruguay it is a nickname for someone whose skin is darker than the rest,"

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/gus-poyet-negrito-isnt-an-offensive-term-16082510.html

There are numerous other sources that say that while it the word may be what Poyet has said it is, it is also used for people of all ethnicities and skin colours. 

Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English

From wikipedia that. 

[mercurial]

See my previous post, the quote from native Uruguayian Gus Poyet saying it refers to darker skinned people.

Among other things and used among whites as well, look up etymology or wiki. Did trying to decipher what sudaca or negrito means and then understanding its history gives you a sense of now being able to judge on language intricacies. As I said before, you are trying to understand a alien language and culture using your brain which is just not equipped for it. It is what precisely what FA has done and why people are up in arms against it. It has not made a judgement on a sports issue, it has made a judgement on culture, language and interpreting racism. FA has effectively with this judgement passed a verdict on cultural values of another country and language used in that context. Its a complex issue, probably best left to a civil court where it looks to be heading.

[Prince]

Still waiting for a reply from the manc about whether the Mexican lad 'Chicarito' using the word negrito when he calls people 'mate' means he is racist, and whether if it is true that Evra referred to Suarez's ethnicity through the racist, offensive, bigoted term of 'sudaca', he also thinks that Evra used racist abuse.

I have always said that there isn't neccessarily racial intent in "negrito", but it depends on the context it is used. In Uruguay it is understood that negrito can refer to the colour of one's skin. It then depends on the context it's used it in. Chicharito talking to a friend is likely to be using it affectionately, thus not being racial abuse. Suarez arguing with Evra is likely to use it to annoy and hence it would be racial abuse.

If Evra said "sudaca" that would be racial abuse. But there is no mention of Evra _racially_ insulting Suarez in the LFC statement and also surely more would have been made of this by Suarez and LFC a lot earlier if it was the case.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

The very night the allegation first surfaced, without any details, the poster on here from Uruguay (whose name I forget, sorry) posted he thought it was Luis saying 'Negrito' and pointed out it could be used by a white guy to his white girlfriend when asking a question like 'should we go shopping', the same way another culture might drop 'love' or 'honey' or 'sweetie' on the end. It could also be used between two guys playing footie together in the same way as 'pal', 'mate' 'buddy' or whatever.
It can also be used to indicate a darker skin - one of the most famous old school Uruguyan players has it as part of his nickname - but nobody, but nobody with darker skin playing in Uruguay would be offended merely by the use of that word.
Now Suarez is not in Uruguay, so it isn't a 100% get out of jail card, but it does sure as hell dispprove a claim of racism.
I think Barnes said it best when he said, "In this case ignorance is a defence'.

[Stussy]

but fails to believe that Evra may have used the insult he's rumoured to have used.

Its not that he fails to believe it. I don't think he even KNOWS or understands that is what has happened, or that the LFC statement says that the investigation uncovered Evra making a pejorative reference to Luis's ethnicity.

This isn't denial - its outright ignorance.

[Hymer Red]

1. Everything I have read states quite clearly that in Uruguay "Negro" and "Negrito" have nothing to do with skin colour. They are neutral terms, leaning on the sides of friendliness if anything

2. From what I have read it sounds like Evra (Who is fluent in Spanish) began the conversation with a word which apparantly is a deadly racist insult to 'South Americans'

3. The conversation was conducted in Spanish and Suarez responded in Spanish with a word that in Uruguay is not racist nor does it apply to any particular skin colour

4. It appears that although Evra initiated the discussion in Spanish, he has (At a much later time - hours afterwards) complained about to a French TV Station (Canal+). He appears in that interview to be claiming the English version of the word rather than the Spanish version - which is odd in itself as I've read that Suarez can barely speak a word of English (Can anyone confirm this?)

5. It also transpires (From a few sources) that Evra told an official at the game "You only booked me because I'm black"

6. Evra's behaviour before even a ball was kicked was stroppy, angry and confrontational throughout. As he went off it was even more so to the Liverpool fans

7. He didn't report it to any match official at any time

8. No Liverpool players heard anything

9. No Manchester United players heard anything

10. There was no video evidence despite Evra saying "You can all see it"

Obviously we all have to wait for the whole transcript to come out, but if the above was the case then firstly there doesn't seem to be a case to answer for Suarez. Secondly why did Evra use a different language to interpret a Spanish phrase and thirdly why didn't the people investigating it even look into this?

We also have the extra evidence of Hernandez (For instance) openly using the word "Negrito" in a Twitter in a non-racial manner and then we have the entire Argentian team posing with a flag with the word "Negro" upon it - again in a non-racial manner.


There are too many ifs and buts, but from everything I've seen so far (To be backed up / confirmed / denied) I can see why the club is putting up such a robust defence.


The problem here though is that Suarez is openly being called "A racist" by all and sundry (Except by the FA who charged him and not by Evra who brought the whole thing up in the first place)

The fact there are so many loose ends and so much mixed up shite would make me at this moment in time think that the FA have done this to stick up two fingers at Blatter and his organisation and are also using this as a smoke screen to another case going on at present.


We will only know for sure once the full transcript appears of course.

And after all that given that Evra and the FA have both said they dont think Luis is racist they must have accepted that the term wasnt used in a racist manner they sit back and watch the shitstorm blowing up all around them. Backpage headlines declaring Luis a Racist, radio stations encouraging people to phone in and do the same and they sit there and say ........... Fuck All.  To me that is the thing that makes this an agenda against LFC Blatter or both. Seeing Luis hung out to dry by the media should have them hanging their heads in shame. Why has neither Evra or the FA come out and said that the exchange between the two players was a misunderstanding and that although Luis meant no racism in his remarks it couldnt be allowed to pass without comment but stop calling him a racist as he really isnt one. To vilify him like they are in the media is not what the FA or Evra supposedly intended. The FA must have known that an 8 game ban for a misunderstanding and not releasing the evidence would cause this to happen, people on here were predicting it weeks ago but still they sit back and let it happen without any comment.  What conclusions can we draw from that other than they really dont give a shit? That bacon faced bastard really has played a blinder, the c**t must be pissing his sides.

[snowlion]

What Liverpool FC, Dalglish, the individual players, and the fans have done to support Suarez may put us in a negative light by some.  However, it proves to those players who are thinking of a transfer to England that there is only one team where You'll Never Walk Alone.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Haha, so in other words -

"Ok, I didn't realise your point was valid and people had indeed been guilty of ignorant/racist posts but shut up anyway"

You're a corker.

No. My point was that in the other thread you made an open random post seemingly pointing at various people. Then you made another one. Then you made the one in here.

If you had correctly reported a racist post to a mod and had it quietly deleted then that was all you needed to do. Why continue with it as your concerns were proven to be upheld by the mods on RAWK?

[Il Nina]

Ths whole issue has really made me angry. I hope what i have to say does not offend anyone and it is of my own personal opinion. I have tried to write, as well as I can, what is on my mind...

The FA are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites and the report here does nothing but highlight this. But so are the mindless who have been so quick to condemn Suarez without clearly knowing much about the case and some of the facts Liverpool FC have informed us. They have read the FA's verdict and certain media and have believed every word of it (nothing knew there though). Theres the Everton fans, who a vast majority will use anything they can to beat a Liverpool player down, this is nothing but juicy to a lot of them...however there was a song for Victor Anichebe amongst some of their fans which was of a racist content. Theres the Man U fans, who obviosuly want to stand up for their own player, but who sing a discriminative song about their own Je Sung Park i.e.'you eat dogs in your country'; and not to mention to vast majority of fans who would sing to Rafa Benitez 'fat Spanish Waitor', to name but a few unpunished and undiscussed (by Fa and the likes of) incidents.

Yet, from what we are being informed of what Suarez called Evra meaning 'black friend', a term of endearment from his own cultural background, Suarez was warrented not just a severe ban and a fine, but more imporantly has been branded a 'racist' (when he is of Black heritage himself) and has had his repuation completley blemished!

This whole saga has been nothing but full of hypocrisies, from the FAs dealing and statements of the case; the fact Evra's racist term towards Suarez has gone unpunished (for now); people jumping on the bandwagon to knock anyone to do with Liverpool down for defending Suarez (including the seemingly racist idea that Glen Johnson should have 'thrown the Suarez shirt down', that's an arrogant and presumptuous view!!).

Racism should NEVER be tolerated and no one should be judged by the colour of their skin (and going with that... age, gender, sexual orentation etc), at the end of the day, we all bleed red and have feelings. However all this has turned everything on it's head, it's nothing but political correctness gone mad, with bigots trying to hide their own hypocrisies (the theme of this post lol).

If this is the bar that the FA are going to set, then surely they have to start right that the beginning, punishing every insult towards an individual or group of people. Starting with banning 'fans' who sing/chant/mock the deaths of people at footballing disasters (something which should have been done a very long time ago); bans for the 'fans' who sing about player's cultures or about were the other crowd are from...in fact lets never refer to a person's place of origin in commentaries, etc etc. If this is the way hypocritical Englnad is going, who can't decide whether they want to embrace other cultures or have people of other cultures accept the 'english' way of living and 'english' views. This is a very sad incident for English football, in fact, it is a farse. I can only hope that if this incident is taken to a court of appeal that they will see sense. Until then, myself and many involved with Liverpool football club and anyone else with an ounce of sense, will stand by Luis Suarez and the fact that he is NOT a racist (when dealing with the facts that have already been presented to us)

[smicer07]

Still no evidence released then? The FA are a fucking disgrace and the fact they haven't released any further statements suggests they are quite happy with what's happening at present.

[belfast-connection]

I have always said that there isn't neccessarily racial intent in "negrito", but it depends on the context it is used. In Uruguay it is understood that negrito can refer to the colour of one's skin. It then depends on the context it's used it in. Chicharito talking to a friend is likely to be using it affectionately, thus not being racial abuse. Suarez arguing with Evra is likely to use it to annoy and hence it would be racial abuse.

If Evra said "sudaca" that would be racial abuse. But there is no mention of Evra _racially_ insulting Suarez in the LFC statement and also surely more would have been made of this by Suarez and LFC a lot earlier if it was the case.

well answer another question then

is hernandez referring to the colour of his mate's skin when he calls him negrito

or is it a word devoid of any racial connotation that simply has an etymological route in a 400 year  old racial reference

[MichaelA]

Still, "mate" can refer to anyone from any race whereas "negr(it)o" refers to specifically darker skinned people. It is undeniably a reference to skin colour/race. You cannot erase that from the word, Suarez would have been aware of that. Correct?

Fuck off back to red cafe. Mate.

[ThepepeReina]

I have always said that there isn't neccessarily racial intent in "negrito", but it depends on the context it is used. In Uruguay it is understood that negrito can refer to the colour of one's skin. It then depends on the context it's used it in. Chicharito talking to a friend is likely to be using it affectionately, thus not being racial abuse. Suarez arguing with Evra is likely to use it to annoy and hence it would be racial abuse.

If Evra said "sudaca" that would be racial abuse. But there is no mention of Evra _racially_ insulting Suarez in the LFC statement and also surely more would have been made of this by Suarez and LFC a lot earlier if it was the case.

But suarez wasnt trying to annoy. He had his arm round evra smiling like cmon mate... and evra angrily pushed him away.

[Juan Loco]

Isn't this 'Prince' guy the person who someone took a snapshot of on a manc forum two days ago saying he was going to change his avatar to the very picture he's now using to wind us up?

I don't know.

What I do know is that he's sent me 10 abusive PM's and rather than report this to a mod I'm just going to stick it out here in the middle of the forum.

[Dr Manhattan]

I'll be honest, whenever I see a manc on here posting away my head is filled with the theme tune to Terry & June whilst reading it.

[Stussy]

I have always said that there isn't neccessarily racial intent in "negrito", but it depends on the context it is used. In Uruguay it is understood that negrito can refer to the colour of one's skin. It then depends on the context it's used it in. Chicharito talking to a friend is likely to be using it affectionately, thus not being racial abuse. Suarez arguing with Evra is likely to use it to annoy and hence it would be racial abuse.

Weasel words.

If Evra said "sudaca" that would be racial abuse. But there is no mention of Evra _racially_ insulting Suarez in the LFC statement and also surely more would have been made of this by Suarez and LFC a lot earlier if it was the case.

Cowardice from you there. I've already explained - Suarez did not hear the (possibly) racist term that Evra possibly made in referring to his ethnicity. The LFC statement makes that clear. It only came out during the hearing when Evra admitted to it. Fair enough to him for being man enough to do so. I doubt he even understands the full pejorative resonance of the word. And that is the reason why it hasn't been actioned by LFC - as yet.

[Dr Manhattan]

I don't know.

What I do know is that he's sent me 10 abusive PM's and rather than report this to a mod I'm just going to stick it out here in the middle of the forum.

I rest my case.

Told you he was a blert on a fucking wind up.

[yes]

I am only prejudiced about sarcastic people who are so up themselves, so I we leave that thought with you!

Other than to add I operate in a multicultural environment and actually deal with these matters fairly often.

However you may be right in one way, I guess there is no glass in your greenhouse!

Oh my word, you genuinely still don't get it do you? I think we'll leave it there then eh?

You operating in a 'multicultural environment' interests me though. As opposed to those  'hermetically sealed white only environments' that a lot of people operate out of. Please tell me more of this magical place.

[sidneyroughdiamond]

My Mrs is from Peru, in her own words negrito is a term of endearment on the other hand sudaca is very offensive.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I have always said that there isn't neccessarily racial intent in "negrito", but it depends on the context it is used. In Uruguay it is understood that negrito can refer to the colour of one's skin. It then depends on the context it's used it in. Chicharito talking to a friend is likely to be using it affectionately, thus not being racial abuse. Suarez arguing with Evra is likely to use it to annoy and hence it would be racial abuse.

If Evra said "sudaca" that would be racial abuse. But there is no mention of Evra _racially_ insulting Suarez in the LFC statement and also surely more would have been made of this by Suarez and LFC a lot earlier if it was the case.

I haven't seen a single example definition of Negrito being used in Uruguay as racial abuse. Have you got a creditable source for this claim?

[Lenin.]

"dum dum dum, another one bites the dust"
*waits impatiently for Stormtrooper*

[KiNki]

he's been banned. 

[Ski]

After we get the documents relating why Luis has been banned for 8 games etc I hope we don't even bother appealing to the fa but instead take our fight directly to the high court or sports arbitration. If I've read correctly we can't appeal the verdict only the sentence. If we only appeal to the fa I can only see one outcome and that is that they will increase the ban. It's pretty obvious we're not going to get a fair hearing so I hope we fight them all the way in court and get the ban lifted and a very publi apology to us and Luis for trying to ruin his reputation and career not only with their ridiculous verdict but also the 3momths they've taken to reach it in which time Luis has suffered dogs abuse and been given no protection whatsoever by the pfa or match officials.

Then I'd like us to sue the fuck out of every publication and individual that has not bothered to question on what evidence Luis has been found guilty but instead simply applauded the fa for 'taking a stand'.

It's almost like this is nothing to do with Luis but instead the fa's way to have another o at Sepp Blatter over his recent comments. A way to show him and the world that the fa won't tolerate racism despite Blatters ideas. I also have the feeling that JT will walk away with nothing more than a fine and a slap on the wrist. All this charging him and him going to court is their way of covering their arses to show everyone that ven though he is English they're treating him the same as they would anyone else who stood accused of what he is accused of. They'll the. Conclude that there was insufficient evidence to find him guilty yet they're happy to pass verdict on Luis based on Evra's say so. The whole thing is a complete sham and I hope we absolutely rip them to bits and expose them for who they really are!

[Dr Manhattan]

Ahh, straight back to the manc forums now then to post something along the lines of the following...

LOLZ!! I just when on that rawk and wound up the scouse! I even had a pic of Evra! Lolzypops!! Be my friend, someone?

etc.

[Mr Dilkington]

What a waste those last few pages were.

Apart from Michael's wonderful post a couple of pages back. Merry Christmas Michael!

[horne]

Not only are the press perverting logic, language and truth about this entire farce of a situation they are deliberately and mechanistically trying to misrepresent our club and all its fans while upholding John Terry, a reknowned scoundrel, as some apotheosis of all that is good, honest and noble... It seems John Terry is a man on a quest to clear his name and reputation while Luis is a convicted Racist if you believe the gutter press! Pah. Chances are Terry is not intrinsically racist ... if he is he must hide it pretty well given the diversity of the Chelsea squad and where he comes from. But there is no doubt what he said and its evidenced and its a really disgusting thing to say, even without thinking and in the heat of the moment.

One of the worst crimes, in my mind, is falsely and knowingly accusing someone of something wrongly.

As WE all agree we do not have the full facts and details its just hearsay with no apparent evidence of this accusation being made 10 times during the game.

There is an inference that Evra used the word Sudaca which is continually over looked and under reported in the shitty press we have. If they do, its just the word 'South American' which is a nothing as an insult, so pointless and inoffensive that youd question why would anyone, anywhere ever make such a weak and innocuous statement out of spite. From my understanding now Sudaca is a totally different response ... and about as pernicious an insult as Evra could care to make.

In terms of how the events unfolded. I saw the Ref call them across make them 'friends' on the edge of Pepe's 18 yard line. As they walk back I saw Suarez try to ruffle Evras hair or rub his head, I believe, in a non-aggressive fashion, his facial expression, for what it means, seemed jovial and relaxed not vicious and spuming . We then saw Evra churlishly, thuggishly, aggressively (whatever word seems appropriate) push his hand forcefully away and say something. Sitting 70 yards away in the Centenary directly opposite I was unable to hear what was said, or what Luis riposte was. Up until now, nobody has come come forward with a view as to what was said from the pitch or the stands.

Anyway, Evras reaction wasnt any more septic to the way he normally is ... and he continued to play the game in his usual spiteful and hateful way. At no stage did he go to the ref or his team mates  or continue to behave as though hed been stung to the core by the outrage of Luis comment, Youd think with his nature hed be harassing everyone in sight for the rest of the match in righteous indignation ... he didnt. At least I didnt notice.

Then we have Ferguson's involvement. Again, there appears to be two things that happened. Ferguson took Evra to the Ref and then Evra whines to Canal + accusing Luis of having offended him.

I wasnt there but  something happened off pitch after the game was over. I think we need to investigate Fergusons part in all this. Did Evra make the statement about "10 times" to the broadcaster before or after he spoke with Ferguson. It seems as though Ferguson may have encouraged or even exaggerated the situation with no knowledge himself of what actually happened but looking to make the most of a situation that was in all likelihood intigated by his own player.
Ferguson has raised the stakes of hatred here and should be made accountable for his action. If he is responsible for the defamation and tainting of an innocent mans character this could well be the end of him and and his exaltationby the press when the full and final truth is ever manifested.

I really think we need to focus on Ferguson and his part in exacerbating this situation from the get go.

This current stand we take as a club and its supporters is not about racism, it never really was, it is now 100% about the truth and now exposing the FA and the press for the complicit incompetents and purveyors of untruths and insults that they are known and continue to be. The Press,  the FA, EVRA and Ferguson are the ones who will ultimately be vilified when all is said and done - we just need to be solid, consistent and tenacious about this entire episode

i remember thinking before the match how bizarre Mr Alex Ferguson was for saying, things have got out of hand between the fans and that we should all get on blah blah....i put it down to him wanting to take a little bit of the sting  out of the crowd to aid their plight in getting some sought of result out of the match which historically, it had been mentioned that they didnt really do too well in.
i also thought about the last time out where nani broke down and cried on the pitch and i was feeling that really ,they just werent looking forward to this one.
even rooney made some comment beforehand about how they dont get anything at our patch and was pretty much expecting not much out of the game
i felt that for the first time in a while, we were well placed to give them a mauling and not just take away the 3 points, but win by a good few to the point of humiliating them.
the talk was all about how weak they were in comparison to previous united sides particularly in the midfield.
rooney and his ol man were under the microscope too
then this happens.
was there some pre planned idea in retaliation for previous events out of desperation i wonder?
i may be wrong but any other manager would have tried to quell the situation not exagerate it surely?...i mean we are talking about something explosive , particularly after he made a big thing about the munich chants and the hillsborough stuff?...bit too bizarre for me!

[LiverLuke]

Ahh, straight back to the manc forums now then to post something along the lines of the following...

LOLZ!! I just when on that rawk and wound up the scouse! I even had a pic of Evra! Lolzypops!! Be my friend, someone?

etc.

followed by "lol you LEGEND! Winding up those scummy dippers hahahahahah, its their year remember?"

[Juan Loco]

I rest my case.

Told you he was a blert on a fucking wind up.

I was pulling an Evra mate, hence the 10 times thing. Should've made it clearer