Topic: Young players: Arsenal the benchmark - can we measure up?

[scottishRED]

what i saw in the charity shield match today only confirmed what i had been feeling for quite a while - arsene wenger is simply THE BEST manager in the world at the moment.

it also made me doubt something which i had believed - that arsenal cannot win the league without vieira.

what impressed me most of all about the arsenal i saw today is the clear sign of PROGRESS in a club which was UNDEFEATED in the league last season. it really is quite incredible the way in which wenger keeps things fresh at his club. in fact, let me rephrase that. "incredible" is the wrong adjective to describe it, because it all looks so cohesive, so obvious and so simple. it seems to make perfect sense. the correct word for it is brilliant.

what i saw today was the next line of talent starting to step up at highbury:

- reyes - starting to look an inspired signing at £10,000,000. sure he gets more expensive, but if he fulfils the conditions for the price rising, then he'll have been worth every penny.

- clichy - proved his worth already last season, but came on and looked very comfortable.

- van persie - didn't see too much of him today, but enough to show that he has potential.

- fabregas - was, for me, the most interesting man to watch in this match. they were hyping him on sky before the game, talking about how he had been stolen from barca, and was rated at arsenal as the best man in his position of his age group. and how he shone. he looked skillful, as well as willing to get stuck in. at just 17, he is a fantastic prospect, and i only wish he was at liverpool.

- alliadiere - okay, so he was only on the pitch for two minutes, but on reputation he is a good prospect, and he is clearly going to get a bit more football this season, with wiltord + kanu having moved on.

- pennant - was his loan spell at leeds the best loan of the season last year? it certainly looked like an extremely shrewd move from wenger after his performance today. he was skillful and bright - much the way he looked for leeds last season. he could have stayed and played a 'bit part' role at arsenal last season; indeed, had the new ruling re. loan moves to premiership clubs not come in, pennant would probably have stayed at arsenal. but he wouldn't have progressed in the same manner. wenger picked a good club to send him to. somewhere where he would get 1st team opportunities, and learn to knuckle down.


compare all this with liverpool at the moment. we have some good youngsters - medjani, whitbread, otsemobor, vignal, welsh, diarra, partridge, potter, le tallec, FSP and mellor all come to mind. but how have we used them in the past? perhaps they're not all as good as the arsenal crop, but there are surely some of them ready to step up to the "squad backup" status that arsenal's youngsters have?

arsenal's youngsters are good enough to come together and thrash a crap premiership team - e.g. wolves last season (5-1). what do we think would happen if our youngsters were put out against a crap premiership team?

arsenal are able to use their youngsters as their reserves. with all our investment in the academy, we should really be doing the same. who knows, with benitez's apparent squad trimming, we may finally be planning on doing the same thing.

i know i'd prefer us to use welsh as a back-up centre midfielder than someone like diao.

this has been one of our biggest failings of the past years, and is something with, given the financial situation at the club, benitez is going to have to put right IMHO. we have invested in too many squad players at the expense of our first XI and at the expense of our youth players.

consider (as if you haven't already done so 100 odd times) the money spent on diouf, diao and cheyrou - around £20,000,000! how well spent would that money look now had it gone on damien duff (or some such), and had we settled on relying on some youth players for cover.

i'm not advocating a squad of only 11 senior players and then all youth players thereafter. but arsenal have shown that you really do not need an enormous squad of 24 senior players. chelsea can do this because they are bloody rich, but we cannot. we have to rely on signing players young and hoping they come good for us.

arsenal are the standard - wenger has shown that he is the best manager at blending youth and experience, and at blooding his young players sensibly into 1st team football.

i sincerely hope that benitez, whilst having sold about 9 (or whatever it is) players, will move for only a couple of new, top class players. we can rely on our youngsters for our back up. if not, what is the academy for.

arsenal have shown the way. it's time for us to follow, and eventually surpass them - after all, houllier has given us the facilities to do so. all it needs is someone to use them - step up rafael benitez.

YNWA

[SM Online]

Must admint Cesc is a great prospect new him before he went to Arsenal, same with Pique(now at ManU) and Messi also from Barcelona. Watch out for these guys in the future look very good.

[scottishRED]

i didn't realise pique had actually moved to manure? i was under the impression that so far, they had just expressed an interest. probably they told barca they would pay £2,000,000 and then actually bid around £500,000 (seems to be the way they conduct their transfer dealings!).

another point is that i wish we were showing an interest in these players (or if we are in fact showing an interest, i wish i knew about it). we need to show these players that we can give them success, and that we are THE club for young players to come to and fulfil their potential.

currently arsenal are the ajax of the premiership.

we need to either join them, or usurp them in that category.

[Cardie]

Can a manger with such a good team who's acheived so little in Europe be considered the best in the world?

[Paul Tomkins]

Arsenal have some amazing kids! Bentley is another gem, as is the (17 yr old?) Sanderos, the Swiss guy we went in for. Apparently he's immense. Fabregas is a superstar in the making. Clichy is quicker than quick! (Relating to the sale of a slow player in Danny Murphy, it's noticeable how bloody quick all Arsenal's players are, from front to back, and all their reserves too). Reyes was a real gem in Spain, and apparently has returned in better condition this season - as well as being used to the game over here now. Pennant is a player I rated very highly last year.

We don't match up, I'm afraid. We have only two - FSP and ALT, and the latter is on loan (hopefully to return better and wiser). Flo could have a great season, but mainly in cameos.

Welsh, Potter, Semmy, Mellor - these are all decent players, with bright futures - but the fact that GH never really used them and Rafa didn't take them to the US shows how far they've got to go. All can be Premiership players in years to come, but not necessarily at the top end.

Warnock is much older at 22, and shows what a year of experience at a lower level can do. He's pushing for a spot, but again, is never likely to be amazing. I don't get the sense that we have any superstars in the making, with the exception of Le Tallec, if he keeps his head together.

[SM Online]

i didn't realise pique had actually moved to the Mancs?

yeah the deals been signed, sealed and delivered as far as I know...

[hoonin]

You'll never win anything with kids

It helps when you can come into a team thats already full of confidence and where there is no expectation on you, such as in todays match. Some of those players  will disappear off the scene again and wont be seen all season. The hard part for Wenger will be getting some of these players games. Bentley has already gone out on loan and Pennant has served his dues elswhere but will struggle to get a game.

Still, a nice problem for Wenger to have!

[Guz-kop]

It isn't necesarilly that Arsenal (or United for that matter) have better youngsters but Wenger has created an environment, a machine in which any player can come in and perform well. The team may make full use of Henry's ability, Pires' creativity etc but they always have 10 outfield players who are combfortable on the ball, know what they're doing and have senior players who perform 9 times out of 10 to 'carry' the youngsters. It's the same with United. That's why they can blood in youngsters properly and we can't. I don't know too much about our "kids" but I'd bet Welsh, Raven, Potter, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Otsemobor et al coukd all go into the Arsenal side and look like GOOD players. And if they struggled they'd always have Henry, Pires, Ljungberg, Vieira (?), Campbell carrying them through the game. Likewise, if the same Arsenal youngsters came into our side last year they would look poor (or atleast not as good).

I hope we've not missed the boat on players like Welsh and ALT (who, like Fabregas was considered the best player in his position for his age group not long ago) who are obviously very highly rated.

[Paul Tomkins]

You'll never win anything with kids

It helps when you can come into a team thats already full of confidence and where there is no expectation on you, such as in todays match.

The only way you win with kids is to get a nice balance. Nearly ALL successful teams have an average age of 27-31 (the peak years for an individual too, interestingly enough). Arsenal have Bergkamp, Pires, Sol and Lehman in their 30s, some in their mid-20s, and some kids. Perfect blend. Same as *that* Manc side in 1996. With the kids were Bruce, Pallister, Cantona, Schmeichel et al. As is also mentioned, going into a successful side helps (although it can also put a different kind of pressure on a kid; there's no margin for error at the top clubs).

At Liverpool, our average age was 24 last season - far too low to be challenging - and is getting younger with experienced players leaving and younger players arriving. I'm all for the best kids and younger players (like Cisse) arriving, but I still feel we could still use a few older heads. The only two outfield ones we have are Didi and Sami (with Henchoz, if he plays). Otherwise we have to wait for the team to grow older together - which was GH's intention, but he kept selling experienced players and buying kids, so it never materialised.

[Dermot]

currently arsenal are the ajax of the premiership.

The thing is though most of the ajax youngsters are dutch fuck all or arsenals are english

[hoonin]

The thing is though most of the ajax youngsters are dutch fuck all or arsenals are english

Clichy, Pennant, Cole, Bentley.........

[Guz-kop]

Clichy, Pennant, Cole, Bentley.........

He's french mate 

[Sam]

The thing is though most of the ajax youngsters are dutch fuck all or arsenals are english

Ajax have mini acadamies all over the place, and bring in many overseas youngsters.

[Talk Doctor]

I think "Explicit" has hit a raw nerve there. I wouldn't mind. But I could see a lot of opposition on this forum to LFC bringing in 3-4 very young (17-19) non British players. Even if they were at the academy they would never be considered by many here as coming through the academy.

[scottishRED]

The only way you win with kids is to get a nice balance. Nearly ALL successful teams have an average age of 27-31 (the peak years for an individual too, interestingly enough). Arsenal have Bergkamp, Pires, Sol and Lehman in their 30s, some in their mid-20s, and some kids. Perfect blend. Same as *that* Manc side in 1996. With the kids were Bruce, Pallister, Cantona, Schmeichel et al. As is also mentioned, going into a successful side helps (although it can also put a different kind of pressure on a kid; there's no margin for error at the top clubs).

At Liverpool, our average age was 24 last season - far too low to be challenging - and is getting younger with experienced players leaving and younger players arriving. I'm all for the best kids and younger players (like Cisse) arriving, but I still feel we could still use a few older heads. The only two outfield ones we have are Didi and Sami (with Henchoz, if he plays). Otherwise we have to wait for the team to grow older together - which was GH's intention, but he kept selling experienced players and buying kids, so it never materialised.

i definitely agree with that. my point is that the kids part of the side is all part of being able to afford some brilliant older players.

we have reasonable finances, but they are not bottomless like chelsea's.

what i want to see at LFC is some investment in one or two players who are genuinely going to improve the first XI - whatever age they are (but preferably one who is proven class + experienced), and then also a collection of young players with brilliant potential to back them all up.

somone mentioned the problem / dilemma wenger has with getting games for the youngsters. i agree, it is a concern. but what a nice concern to have?! contrast that concern with our concern about having ANY young players good enough to make the grade.

it will be a disgrace if (given non-exceptional circumstances) we don't manage to get at least one of ALT or FSP as an important + bloody good first team regular within the next 3-4 years.

i think this was GH's dream for the club, but it's not one he managed to implement. wenger, IMHO, is showing the way. we cannot allow a situation to occur where we are looking up to arsenal like this.

this is why i think it is a shame that le tallec departed - he ought to have been able to get some games this season. the loan move could turn out to be a good thing, but i just think he would have benefited so much more from a move to an english first division club or a lower standard premiership team (a la pennant last season).

at st etienne, i can't really see him learning too much about english football. let's hope i'm proved wrong, but my suspicion is that the move is a bit of an own goal on our part. would it have happened under wenger?

would the otsemobor - bolton or mellor - west ham have happened under wenger?

[neil4ad]

Many of you are far more knowledgeable about footie than I am, so I am looking forward to seeing how this thread develops.  I have several comments (most of which are more or less in line with what's been said):

1)Reading the messages thus far, I recall the observation made during the Wrexham game by one of the commentators, about how good it was to see youngsters on the pitch who had been "frozen out" of first team action over the past few years.  Versus Houllier's tendencies, it seems to me that Wenger is particularly skilfull in pushing the development of younger players.  Note how Fabregas, the 17 year old, featured so prominently today.  Though I have respect for Houllier, his haphazard man-management techniques fell far short of Wenger's ability to inject confidence into Arsenal youth.  It seems to me that the failing may not be with the academy as such as much as with the high-level coaching and development of the players that the academy brings in. 

2)Wenger is an amazing judge of young talent, and he has an uncanny ability to isolate and bring out the latent capabilities of a player (look what he did with Viera and Henry!).   I don't know a alot about Arsenal, but it seems to me that Wenger is singularly able to balance management of the first team while maintaining a heavy hand in the progress and development of Arsenal youth.  I never got the sense that recent LFC management struck such harmonious balance. 

3)It's interesting to me that numerous observers have compared Benitez to Wenger.  I can only hope that Benitez will have the resources and the eye for talent that will separate the El-Hadji Diouf's from the Jose Antonio Reyes' (both were signed for 10 mil. right? )

[Guz-kop]

Bentley - norwich?

How many of us have seen enough of these youngsters to claim Arsenal's are better than the ones we have? Like I said, our youngsters have had a shite environment to be able to come in and develop - particularly in the last 2 seasons when the likes of Otsemobor and Welsh should have been gradually edging their way into the first team. I bet you nearly every one of Arsenal's youngsters that played today would have looked like "just another Houllier foreign potential signing" if they had played for us last year. I'm hoping Benitez can get the best out of our senior players and get the first team playing to a system and rythm which will allow the likes of Welsh to come in and display their credentials against the likes of WBA, Bolton, Norwich etc. Last year - Fabregas (sp), Clichy etc would have come in with a huge amount of pressure on their shoulders. They wouldn't have had Scholes, Keane, van Nistelrooy or Henry, Pires, Vieira to ease them into the first team and the first sight of a mistake would see sections of the crowd get on their backs because the whole mood around the club was negative.

I don't know too much about them but we must surely have a huge bundle of talent in Otsemobor, Welsh, Raven, Potter, Le Tallec, Pongolle. None of them may make the level Owen or Gerrard did (a rare case) but there should be enough talent there to be nurtured and developed to mould good young players.

[Aidan_B]

Wiltord, Stepanovs, Luzhny, Jeffers ........

The guy isn't infallable.  He has done well, but still hasn't really made an impact in Europe, or even won back to back trophies.  When he does people can start to return from his presence covered in their own man-goo, but it really does annoy me at times how much people salivate over Arsenal.

[MC-Red]

This thread is more general footy but I have to say that Clichy impressed me end of last season and he is fast

[DonkeyWan]

Couple of things

1. I think everyone is getting carried away over the Community Shield
2. Cardiff is a big pitch, kids with lots of space and stamina will do well and look good.
3. United matched Arsenal in the first half, it was a fairly even game. It was in the second half when they threw on a lock of children that United looked awful.
4. United's defence looks porous, but they did have a lot of injuries and a poor pre-season.
5. Saw Arsenal in the Amsterdam arena. Minus Henry they look incapable of scoring against a well organised defence (though Reyes does look good). Their Kids were less effective then as well.
6. Arsenal look in good form. However, I still think their squad will come up short by the end of the season, as they are lacking a lot of experienced players after the summer.

[scottishRED]

Couple of things
1. I think everyone is getting carried away over the Community Shield

this post is not just based on the Community Shield match; in case you hadn't noticed, arsenal were bloody good last season, and their kids were looking good last season. the Community Shield was the latest showing of how good their young players are.

3. United matched Arsenal in the first half, it was a fairly even game. It was in the second half when they threw on a lock of children that United looked awful.

as opposed to arsenal who had a lot of kids on and looked bloody good.

4. United's defence looks porous, but they did have a lot of injuries and a poor pre-season.

so what? it wasn't exactly an open door arsenal were being shown. and you can only beat what is put in front of you. i'd say that reyes was so good yesterday that most defences, whether on form or not, would have had trouble containing him.

5. Saw Arsenal in the Amsterdam arena. Minus Henry they look incapable of scoring against a well organised defence (though Reyes does look good). Their Kids were less effective then as well.

fair enough, i didn't see that myself. i do think the reliance on henry is a bit of a weakness for them, so it doesn't surprise me too much. but i think what we saw yesterday is that, in reyes, wenger has signed a gem who can (long term) take the pressure off henry.

6. Arsenal look in good form. However, I still think their squad will come up short by the end of the season, as they are lacking a lot of experienced players after the summer.

only if they sell vieira IMHO. otherwise the title will be their's again.

[MC-Red]

On Reyes before he clearly became an Arsenal target GH said he could walk into most first teams.
I think he wanted Ronaldo as well and as someone pointed out with Senderos as well.

So we can also recognize talent we just have to be careful of the price we pay.

That said Wenger has chosen well by the way his young players have performed when given the chance

[Dermot]

Ajax have mini acadamies all over the place, and bring in many overseas youngsters.

but most of there best players are dutch.

seedorf,kulivert,de long, van der vaart, hofland

[Talk Doctor]

It appears that Raffa may be doing soemthing about this issue. The "AS" website (Spain) reports

http://www.as.com/articulo.html?d_date=&xref=20040809dasdasftb_25&type=Tes&anchor=dasftbA00

That during the discussions over Diouf's transfer LFC tried to link the deal to 3 youngsters from Malaga's "Academy", Alexis, Dopico y Perico.

I know nothing about these kids, but you can bet your life Raffa; Paco and the boys do. Just don't hold your breath.

[Gus 1855]

So chuffed to see that the youngsters got a decent run out tonight. Warnock looked well up for it, Potter didn't get much of a go, but it is so encouraging to see Rafa prepared to give them the resposibility that Ged was not.

[Gnurglan]

So chuffed to see that the youngsters got a decent run out tonight. Warnock looked well up for it, Potter didn't get much of a go, but it is so encouraging to see Rafa prepared to give them the resposibility that Ged was not.

It was excellent to see them get a chance. Everyone has to start somewhere and today was as good a time as any to begin. Good decision by Benitez.
Can't say much of Warnock's and Potter's performance, but they got their first real taste of the action and that's what counts at the moment.

[Skeeve]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned warnock being on loan last season, surely that must be about the biggest reason that he's doing well enough for rafa to consider him a first team squad player, here's hoping that some of this year's loan deals work out as well or even better.