Topic: Round Table Rumination: The 10 men of Everton 0 - 2 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

So, what could be better than a derby day win the sun. Unless its one of them unfairly sent off and the Moyes' face twisted like a cheap gurner with indignation. To be honest, actually, I don't think it was a sending off but it was a godsend(ing off) to us.

After the sweet taste of victory has disappeared, as long as that may take, this was a game that the scoreline probably flattered in some respects and not in others. Once again we're a team in fluctuation, slowly settling into a pattern and shape, albeit slowly.

Like most games this season, there were times when we were on top and in control and times when we were hanging on a bit, and that's with Eversmall having 10 men.

Carroll at times seems bewildered, other times, his runs into the box aren't met instantly with crosses leading to his and our frustration; and then at times we crossed it to find no-one there. One thing I've noticed about him is the fact he drops off and away in the box, never trying to get in front of the defender, or at least yesterday, there was always one in front of him til the goal when he shoved thingy out the way...


Discussion points:

1.Adam should be a bonus player in midfield, someone who adds, not is the basic need. He doesn't control, read nor make a game. Lucas already is better than him. Which means we're still missing and not controlling the centre of the field a lot of the time. That basic control of the space in front of Carra et al makes us vunerable. So, with Gerrard fit, what's the best formation for us in the centre?

2. Carroll and Suarez: starting to show a little understanding but no Keegan and Toshack. Is Carroll at fault for his 'sluggish' appearances or are we not playing to his strengths?

3. Everton looked at times like they wanted it more.. true or false?

[Garstonite]

Edit: I'll write more in time too. Just a few concerns/ramblings to get the ball rolling:
Still a few concerns - namely, Adam's inability to read the game off the ball and Carroll's lack of movement up front. Everton had no way of exploiting our weaknesses at the back either.

But a win in the derby. Fuck it. Everton have their excuse, we have our three points. Natural order restored.

[No666]

Initial rumination is simply: this time last year we were third from bottom and facing oblivion off-the-pitch. Happy days.

[SMD]

We were shite in the middle portion of the game and I thought it was a matter of time until they scored.

They didn't, we did and somehow kept a clean sheet. I'll also come back to this (cos fuck it, I want to enjoy today) but really glad with Gerrard slotting in with Carroll, Suarez and Bellamy for the first time. Andy looked brighter and ironically Lucas looked more relaxed. I'm hoping we'll have a captain willing to share the load now and his brief cameo also answered the question of where we might slot him in.

4-4-2 with Adam in the middle doesn't work. It hurts.

[Danyaals Kop]

Frustration, frustration, joy.

If Rodwell had not been sent off, I fear we wouldn't have won the game, or it would have taken something special. To be honest, it wasn't a red but anyone associated with Liverpool does not care - it's time we got some luck.

Luckily, Moyes didn't realize how much of an asset Drenthe is because he looked like someone who could cause problems but was brought on too late.

Today, our defence was good but midfield was meh. Adam had little influence on the game, Downing could do very little, and needs to work on his game especially when he's in the final third. Kuyt missed a pen, wow - but he was doing his job as a hard working right winger with all his tracking back. Lucas, I love that man. He connects the midfield to attack and shapes up everything, he allows defenders to spread while he takes control and that stopped a lot of danger from Fellaini and Cahill.

The defense was awesome but a special mention to José, who is a bargain and for me till now, the signing who is really showing signs of what we want.

Our play today was pretty poor. Suarez didn't get the nagging he deserved for that two yard header miss, absolutely poor. Carroll needs to show a lot more movement up front.

The way the goal was set up was pleasant to see. Carroll finally got his goal, which he deserved and took some of the frustration away.

Tactically, it was brilliant from Kenny to bring on Gerrard and Bellamy for Downing and Adam. Gerrard fit nicely in and was showing some of his movement and crosses, while Bellamy's pace is an awesome asset as he also links up very well with José.

On a final note, our midfield and strikers need to finish off our chances, a win is a win thought and it was good to get one against the bitters.

[StevenLFC]

Of all the round table discussions that we'll do this season, doing them for derby games will probably be the most difficult. We all try to remain fairly unbiased in these discussions, giving praise when it's due and pointing out any negatives, without the "Fuck Carroll, Lucas is shit etc." bollocks that you get in other places on this forum. However, it's hard to be unbiased when we beat Everton because I really love beating them. It's their cup final, but at least a referee's decision gives them something to blame, they like blaming others don't they?

I'll go through the team with how I thought they played:

Reina: Solid, didn't really have too much to do. I thought he commanded his box well, which helped negate the threat of Cahill in the air.

Kelly: Again, he looked pretty solid defensively. Didn't get forward too often, but that was probably due to Kenny's plan. He coped well with Baines, who could have been a real threat.

Carragher/Skrtel: I've grouped these together as comments are pretty similar for both. Both looked solid, made a few tackles and won a few headers. Only criticism was the lack of closing Saha down. On too many occasions he wash given time to turn and shoot. Lucky for us, he's pretty shit, but better strikers will punish us if we give them that much time and space.

Enrique: I thought he was fantastic. He dealt with everything that came at him well and in a cool, calm manner. He also got forward well, and it was a very good run and cross that set up the first goal. Some people say Leighton Baines is the best left back in the league, for me he isn't the best left back that was on the pitch yesterday.

Lucas: Outstanding again. He worked tirelessly again, constantly making tackles, getting about Everton and winning the ball back. He still has a tendency to make silly challenges though, if he cuts that out he'll be one of the best holding players in Europe.

Adam: Sometimes he looks really good, then sometimes he looks poor. When he's given time and space, he can be dangerous. However, he looks a bit slow sometimes and he doesn't seem to have an understanding with the forwards yet. He's a decent player, and he's technically very good as shown by his shot in the first half, but he's the man who's meant to set the tempo and therefore he needs to be a bit quicker with the ball.

Kuyt: Worked tirelessly again, and made some good runs across the front of defenders creating space for the strikers. It's a shame he missed the penalty, but that shouldn't detract from a decent performance.

Downing: Didn't see much of him really. I wish he'd try to beat his man more on the left though, he's got the ability to do that and whip in crosses with his left foot. At the moment, he keeps cutting inside and floating right footed crosses in, which quite often end up in the keepers hands.

Suarez: It's hard to judge Suarez's performances isn't it? You've got to accept the silly things he does becuase he produces moments of pure quality. His header in the first half was a shocking miss for me, but it's hard to criticise him because for every bit of poor play, he does something wonderful to make you forget his faults. Defenders must hate playing against him. He always seems to find himself in space, and therefore must be a nightmare to mark. I know his goal was a gift from Everton, but it was still a calm finish. He constantly made a nuisance of himself, and I fucking love him!

Carroll: I thought he played quite well, and looked a real threat from corners. Unlike Suarez, Carroll is unlikely to create chances for himself, so often he'll go missing for periods of play. He took his goal well, finally he got himself infront of a defender! We've become used to having 'live-wire' strikers for years at Liverpool (Fowler, Owen, Baros, Torres) who will run inbehind defenders and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Carroll won't do that, so as much as we think Carroll needs to adapt to Liverpool, maybe us as fans need to adapt to Carroll?

The subs: It's great to seenus with such a strong bench. Gerrard shouldn't be too far away from starting games, and he'll make a big difference to us. Bellamy looked good again, his pace is scary and he could be a great weapon coming off the bench this season. Henderson was brought on as Lucas had been booked, and didn't have much time to make an impact. I like Henderson though, sure he come with a big price tag but he's still so young. If we'd brought through a 20 year old from the youth team/reserves then we'd give them time to settle and develop. It's not Jordan's fault that we payed big money for him, so I think we should be patient and I'm sure he'll turn into a good player for us in the future.

I love beating Everton!

[No666]

If Rodwell had not been sent off, I fear we wouldn't have won the game

It went exactly according to our game plan, on reflection. Atkinson visits both grounds before the match to lay down the law. We take on board that he's going to 'impose' himself on the game. Gerrard said in his pre-match interview he thought we'd go onto win - the implication being that it would take patience - IF we kept a cool head and didn't concede in the first 20 minutes. So it was one of those days when what the backroom staff thought might happen, did happen; when the instructions they gave out beforehand matched the scenario as it played out.

[Yorkykopite]

Everton deserved what they got for trying to reduce the football match to a scrap. Yeah, Rodwell took the ball before taking the man but it was a poor challenge - a coward's challenge for these three reasons:

1. He entered a static zone - where Suarez had been essentially stationary for a few seconds while tussling with Fellaini for the ball - and he entered it sliding in towards his opponent. There was only one player likely to get hurt and it wasn't the one who was moving.

2. He went in studs up. Yes, his foot wasn't off the ground but he made a decision to take the ball with the sole his boot.

3. His right foot was at 10 o'clock. And that meant he closed his body as he slid to protect himself from the inevitable collision. He knew what he was doing. There's always a touch of malice in a tackle when a player does that.

So off he went. He can't complain too much. Cahill and Hibbert should have joined him in the first '45 too. Moyes clearly asked his stupid players to calm down a bit in the second half. As a result they performed better and we struggled until Gerrard and Bellamy came on. Saha ought perhaps to have scored when Carragher, for some weird reason, retreated and allowed him a free turn and a free shot on the edge of the box. This happens a lot now with Carra. He knows he can't get tight because he'll be turned anyway.

But with the substitutions it felt like a matter of time until we scored. Gerrard followed up the Wolves cameo with some lovely strutting football and we can only pray now that he's up and ready to go v the Mancs. If he is we'll be in business.

It was Downing's worse game by far. Is he tired? Was he under instructions to vacate the flank and leave it free for a marauding Enrique? Does he not fancy hothouse games like the Derby? Who can tell? But it was poor stuff from him and we played better when Bellamy brought some electricity on to the pitch. 

Man of the match was between Lucas and Suarez again (though who doesn't enjoy Enrique's behemoth performances on the left?). Lucas drew another yellow when Kuyt produced one of Everton's most incisive passes of the afternoon, leaving us wide open until the Brazilian took one for the team. But apart from that he did almost everything right. Suarez has got more to show, but even at half-throttle he's simply too good for most defences. Distin may have gifted him his goal but that moment of panic was induced by 80 minutes of bewildering creativity from our no. 7. He sows distress. As a team we will learn to capitalise more as the season goes on.

[Roy of the rovers]

Discussion points:

1.Adam should be a bonus player in midfield, someone who adds, not is the basic need. He doesn't control, read nor make a game. Lucas already is better than him. Which means we're still missing and not controlling the centre of the field a lot of the time. That basic control of the space in front of Carra et al makes us vunerable. So, with Gerrard fit, what's the best formation for us in the centre?

2. Carroll and Suarez: starting to show a little understanding but no Keegan and Toshack. Is Carroll at fault for his 'sluggish' appearances or are we not playing to his strengths?

3. Everton looked at times like they wanted it more.. true or false?

1. Completely agree with Adam, thought he was poor again yesterday. Either needs to play just off Suarez / Carroll with Lucas or Spearing behind him or with gerrard. But a 2-man anchor midfield with Adam is going to get overrun. As indeed it was yesterday. Worth noting in this regard that we have made fewer interceptions per game than any other team in the league. Ugh!

2. Thought the service to Carroll yesterday was dismal. I'm happy if he drops off, but it needs Kuyt and Downing to get in if he does. Biggest issue for me is the formation of 4-2-2-2. It's horrible, leaving us too exposed in the middle (see (1) above) and limited with our attack options. I really think we need a 4-3-3 or similar system with these personnel. E.g.

Reina + back 4.
Gerrard Lucas Adam
Kuyt Carroll Suarez

3. Everton clearly wanted it more. But part of that was our total lack of pressing, which is again a formation / setup problem. 4-2-3-1 presses mcuh better because there's pressure on their holding mids from the off.

Lots to think about...

[hesbighesred]

I think between Fat Scouser:

They do it every single game. It's always been this way. It always will. I know Atkinson isn't the best ref around, but in fairness to the fella, he did try to calm it down. I was shocked at the red, well, I couldn't stop laughing. Never a red in my book. A yellow should have been shown, but then Hibbert, Felani, Cahill, they could have all went for bad ones after that. They reduce the game to a battle every single time. Atkinson even visited both clubs in the week and warned them he wasn't going to wear it. So, to go clattering in, when there was no reason, right under the ref's nose, well, the daft bastard was asking for it.
Cahill belts Lucas round the head in the melee after the tackle. Another ref might have well sent him for that. Then he flies in, studs up, and takes Adam out, seconds later.
They've got fuck all to moan about, but have a guess what.... yeah. They won't stop until the next thing they get to moan about. Maybe they should make a video compilation of all the tackles where they've twatted our players over the years and got away with it. But then nothing seem to cheer them c*nts up.

And AL555:

It was a good tackle in the sense that he got the ball no one is arguing about that the problem is those type of tackles where you launch yourself at speed and with a straight leg have been outlawed. The reason is that once you have launched into the tackle there is absolutely no way of pulling out.

The difference between a perfectly timed tackle that takes the ball and one that gets their late and ends a player's career is milliseconds. The reason it was a red was because of the speed, the ferocity and the lack of control in the tackle.

It was a clean tackle because Suarez was off balance because of the attentions of Fellaini, then saw the way Rodwell had launched himself at the ball and pulled out and got his feet off the ground and still got caught.

One simple question what would of happened if Suarez had reacted a little quicker to the loose ball and got their first ?

Have said just about everything that needs to be said about that red card. Pathetic reporting of it from the media again but then what do we expect?

I was personally delighted with this performance. I wasn't worried that we'd drop points at any stage, we were in nigh on complete control from first minute to last and, the way we were playing, made it just a matter of time before they eventually cracked. Pressure doesn't have to be extreme - just constant, and that's what we applied. Constant, controlled and ultimately devastating pressure. At the heart of that was Lucas, who won a lot of possession and barely misplaced a pass. I lost count of the number of times he played it in to Suarez to feet in great positions around the box. If Suarez had been on top form it would have been an annihilation.

That said, it says a lot about Suarez quality that I honestly thought he had a fairly poor overall game - quite a few poor decisions, miscontrols and maybe even a bit of petulance - yet he's finished the game having gotten Everton down to 10, won a penalty and scored. That's the kind of impact Suarez routinely has, even on a bad day. Lucas was my MOTM, but Suarez is a phenomenon.

Oh, and Enrique looked very, very solid too. Classy player.

[Roy of the rovers]

Quick question though, when you look at Carraghers heat maps/average position, it seriously looks more like a right back than a center back. Any idea why? Kelly needs the help more? I noticed everton rarely attacked down our left. Enrique just owned Coleman all game! Maybe with more of the play coming down our right, Carra backs up Kelly more, Skrtel ends up more central and Enrique tucks in a little?

We were very wide at CB yesterday - noticed the same thing. I don't know why, but I think it's to force the FBs upfield a bit. A lot of Reina's distribution looked like it was to a FB on the halfway line

[redpirate]

I think some of the criticism of Adam after the Everton game is rather unjustified. He was unlucky not to score in 1st half injury time and if his shot was 2 inches lower we'd all be gushing about how sweetly he'd hit the ball. And we shouldn't forget that Adams is something of a card magnet...and judging by how "liberally" Rodwell was sent off, I think he was just being cautious and trying not o get himself sent off.

[Garcepticon]

Discussion points:

1.Adam should be a bonus player in midfield, someone who adds, not is the basic need. He doesn't control, read nor make a game. Lucas already is better than him. Which means we're still missing and not controlling the centre of the field a lot of the time. That basic control of the space in front of Carra et al makes us vunerable. So, with Gerrard fit, what's the best formation for us in the centre?

2. Carroll and Suarez: starting to show a little understanding but no Keegan and Toshack. Is Carroll at fault for his 'sluggish' appearances or are we not playing to his strengths?

1. Exact same formation, but with Gerrard instead of Adam. Gerrard helped us control the game and offered so much more in attack, when he popped up on the right and put in a brilliant cross and he also put in a great ball to Carroll from ouside the area. Gerrard was playing much more intelligently than Adam he was always in good space and he recycled possession well. Thing is, Adam doesn't fit into the team when Gerrard is fit. I remember a needless hollywood pass in the first half when he had options everywhere, I'm sure Clarke and Kenny will refine his game, but for now Gerrard takes precedence over him.

[Red Beret]

Although yesterday I expressed concern about the quality of our result today I will add a caveat.  We're still a work in progress, a team in transition, and we have a ton of new players still learning to click together.  Based on that, our points tally is very respectable.  Our aim is top four/75 points and I see no reason why we can't achieve that this season based on what I've seen so far.  We must work harder though.

[helmboy_nige]

We won, Carroll got a goal and we kept a clean sheet.

Like many I'm concerned about our strength in the centre and I wonder if for away games we should be playing 5 in midfield (Gerrard, Lucas, Downing + 2 from Kuyt, Henderson and Adam).  We look unable to control games with 4 in midfield, which was fine against 10 men and fine against Wolves, but we'll come unstuck against top teams.  As others have said Adam is a good player but if he's going to stray upfield we need more support than Lucas, which is why maybe a 5 man midfield is the way to go.

Now that Gerrard is back I think we might see more rotation.  I'd quite like to see Henderson in the centre with Kuyt or Gerrard on his right.  Let's blood the young lad into that attacking central role for the future.

Red card was a disgrace yesterday, but I guess they balance out.  Penalty was clear as day and am only surprised at how weak Kuyts effort was.

Downing was quiet and that helps to explain our lack of creativity (ie we relied on Suarez for everything).  Enrique had a class game though Lucas is the most under-rated player in the prem for me.

I know it's two weeks away, but my thoughts are with the Man U game.  I do feel we should pack the midfield and play one up (suarez), but I can't see Kenny dropping either Carroll or Suarez when they have both just scored.

[Fat Scouser]

Firstly, I'm chuffed. The whingeing and moaning just makes it all the better for me.
But I'm glad this thread is open though and Charlie Adam is one of the topics.
I've said me piece on the player out there in the Adam thread. I'm thinking of not doing this anymore. 2 reasons...
Some knobs see any concern as their cue to leather the players in question. And other knobheads see it as their chance to put their uber fan hat on and start slinging the heracy accusations.
It's ridiculous and doesn't half fuck up any debate.

But anyway, I think the sane majority of people in have the same questions and concerns about Adam. And I see nothing wrong with disscussing anyone at the club, pros and cons. But there's a bit of perspective called for here. It's not as if we broke the bank to buy a huge name. In my book the lad is a squad member and he's only been playing this regurally because Gerrard, has been out. But we've done pretty much okay with him in the team. A result against the Mancs and were right on their tails. The Spurs game aside, he hasn't been some sort of liability. And I reckon, he could turn out to be a very handy addition to the squad.

I think the main concern is playing him with Carra. No need to go on about why. I think we can all see how exposed and isolated it can leave both of them. Yorky mentions the Saha incident and how Cara can do nothing but jockey him. But watch Adam in the same incident. He's bollacksed. I'm not too sure fitness can can sort this out. He's still looking a wee bit heavy, but I reckon I could have got closer to Saha yesterday. In fairness, he had a lot of ground to make up, but it was the run itself. I reckon me Ma might have beat him with a yard start.
If both him and Carra are in the same line up, that could really cost us. Everton didn't really look a man down yesterday. It took fresh legs and new options to finally open them up. The gap between Adam and Carra was like a chasm on several occasions. A better team could have really hurt us in them incidents.
In a nutshell... I think it is a concern. I don't think it's a huge problem that Adam needs slatting for though. I think Dalglish is more than aware of that, and much more. I'm sure he'll work non stop to put right the problems. And as much as I hate the way scapegoating has crept into our support, I don't think it's a mortal sin to have a decent discussion on anyway at the club. Just slagging them off with no call for it, bang out of order. Discussing the negatives, nothing wrong with that in my book.

The other points... Carroll, I think he's got what it takes. It's teething troubles.
Everton wanting it more... nah, just a shower of yard dogs that always turn this game into a battlefield knowing full well it's their only hope of getting anything from it. Lucky they weren't down to 9 or 8 players by half time. Dirty bastards.

[blert596]

From a pure footballing point of view I've been quite intrigued by the whole red card scenario. The views of some are diometrically opposite, but both seem to be using the same rule book.

From a Liverpool fan point of view I was delighted he went off. I was even more delighted when I saw the rerun and thought it looked a harsh sending off. Brilliant! Its a derby and I honestly couldnt give a toss if things are fair or not - as long as we're the team benefitting from it.  And having them lot having something to get all apopletic about is just adding the topping. great stuff.

As for some of he points Hinesy raised then...

Adam: I'm still not totally convinced either way with him. But some people expecting someone who was £6 mill to be our focal point for performances was maybe a little unrealistic. He's been OK so far.  I still think attacking wise he has a tendency to look for a difficult pass too often when its not needed. Maybe he's trying to justify his tag of "Alonso replacement". I don't know. I dont mind seeing it every now and then but sometimes even if some of those passes had come off we'd have been no better off.

Defensively he's very naive/lazy/not fit enough - just choose what you want. I'm glad we have Lucas in there for him. I worry about Lucas getting injured a lot these days.

Hopefully he'll settle down as the season goes on.


Carroll/Suarez: To be honest I havent seen ANY signs of a partnership flourishing. But the way we play I dont think its necessary that they have a "Toshack/Keegan" type understanding. One is already a massive success story. The other still needs a bit of fine tuning from both him and his teammates which hopefully will come. I dont see Suarez as the keegan to toshacks knock downs. thats not to say that the pair of them, on the pitch at the same time, wont both be a great strikeforce.

For me, Everton didn't want it more than we did. Flying into silly tackles that could have seen more of them sent off doesnt really equate to that. Although not too fluid going forward I always felt we had more chance of scoring than they did. A 10 man team at 0-0 is always gonna be a handful. Especially when they're at home in a derby. Note how much easier it got when they went 1-0 down and their "something to defend" mentality went to pieces.

Thought we done well overall. Delighted with the controversy. Delighted with 3 points. And happy that Rodwell will probably be back for them against Chelsea and the Mancs when they appeal. A good Saturday.

[royhendo]

Cheers again Hinesy.

I think Adam is boxing himself into that 'bonus' corner with his performances to be honest. We saw him give more when Blackpool came to Anfield last year, and it was a different, possibly less pivotal role he played for them. And of course they played an intentionally open game, didn't they? Their balance was different as a result. Regardless, Gerrard came on on Saturday and there was a measured control about him which of course we've seen flashes of in the past, and which you hope we'll see more of as he matures into his thirties. His body might yield, but you get the feeling he'll get more controlled in his role, and if he does a decent job of it we'll benefit. So assuming he can stay fit for a decent chunk of the season, yeah - I think Charlie will be a bonus player more than he is a starter. To get the right tune out of him, the side needs set up to carry his limitations, and right now it's set up not only to expose them, but to expose the lads behind him. It's not a matter of him getting fit - he's as fit as he'll get now you'd think. It's more a matter of us learning what he's like as a player. Looking at JP's results comparison thread; however, you realise that despite our vulnerabilities, we're not too shabby really. Mind you, we were shite last year.

Carroll appeared less sluggish to me yesterday. I like him I have to say - he appeals to something primeval, you know? Saying that, you see Falcao at Atletico Madrid and you wonder how that might have gone with Suarez... but that's pointless. He showed his power in the air, and the panic he created in their box at the set pieces before and after their goal showed what he has that few others do. Raw power is scary.

Everton were frothing at the gash from the first whistle, but I'm not sure it worked in their favour. Even without the sending off, you got the feeling a red would come - they were ten clicks past the Do Long bridge.

[Vulmea]

Easier to discuss any weaknesses after a win - its a lot less raw for starters

Adam - has a great range of passes, good shot , tremendous set pieces - the early season stats suggest he covers  a lot of ground - but he's very one paced, he's labouring after 60 minutes - is he somebody who should be used in the back half of a game - should he play the last 30 not the first 60 or is he a luxury player that needs a central 3 and to be restricted to the distance he's asked to cover? Not sure, early days still.

Carroll is clearly being asked to work outside his comfort zone - I think that should pay dividends long term - he could be playing just in and around the box and doing what he's alway done but that would make him a one dimensional player and tend to make us play one way as well - whether he's good enough to be an all round player like we are asking him to be I dont know - sometimes he looks like frankensteins monster with no control or coordination at other times he gets it right - just have to hope he's more of the latter than the former

Dont think Everton wanted it more but there were clear signs of us being nervous and lacking confidence in our ability - can't agree with any idea that we controlld it from start to finish - I thought they were edging it before the sending off - and our tempo was slow and got even slower after the red card

the red card was a joke but so was the one he didn't give for Hibbert or the lack of a card for Fellaini -

[Flinstone]

Some of the previous posts have covered the adam and carragher relation.i think its a very valid point and i think something similar is happening on the other side of the pitch.

Its too soon to judge accurately how carroll will mature and what he might add to his game but as of now he looks best when he's in and around the box.when he's in the box his sheer presence is a problem,coupled with his heading ability and defenders shit themselves.around the box he has a hammer of a left foot and still poses a viable threat.however when he's asked to come deep,control the ball and move you can see it isn't a strong point yet.he either takes too long to get the ball under control or if he lays it off he lacks real pace to burst through the line.now i think he should be asked to stay in the box,but if we do that you need a number of players who fill in that space behind.you can see it with city-its dzeko in the box and the rest behind.with yaya toure mobile enough from midfield and barry covering its something that plays to their strengths.

Right now we have downing and suarez in that space behind who are magnificent options to have but the third player is still a problem.kuyt just isn't good enough for that kind of a role and henderson for all his potential is still raw.gerrard could play this position but then it would mean lucas and adam center.now adam isn't mobile enough to quickly enter these space(when he does he's dangerous)but he just isn't quick enough.lucas can do this but if he goes adam can't hold on his own.i don't see the balance yet.a gerrard lucas and adam situatution might work if they strike up a good understanding but for the next few games if were going to play the same formation i would prefer it if we went with bellamy up top or else use gerrard instead of adam.

[Gnurglan]

1.Adam should be a bonus player in midfield, someone who adds, not is the basic need. He doesn't control, read nor make a game. Lucas already is better than him. Which means we're still missing and not controlling the centre of the field a lot of the time. That basic control of the space in front of Carra et al makes us vunerable. So, with Gerrard fit, what's the best formation for us in the centre?

Adam, more than any other player, represents the change in our game. We have more of a goal threat from CM, but we are also more exposed defensively. Vs Everton, he hit the bar, but there was also a moment in the second half where an Everton player could receive the ball between our defence and midfield, turn with it and fire a shot. Reina was furious (and rightly so). We had a huge gap and better players will definitely punish us if we continue like that.

I am not sure Adam is the only one at fault. I think it's a team issue. And it has to be sorted as soon as possible.

I'd like to see Lucas behind Adam and Gerrard. Have wanted us to use that kind of CM for quite some time now. A more defensive Gerrard than we had when we played Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard, but also a more attacking player beside him than Alonso/Mascherano. So a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 is what I want to see.

The obvious problem with such a formation is that we can't use Suarez and Carroll together. IMO: so be it.   

2. Carroll and Suarez: starting to show a little understanding but no Keegan and Toshack. Is Carroll at fault for his 'sluggish' appearances or are we not playing to his strengths?

It's both a team and player problem. When we just launch it for Carroll, we have decided to use him for headers only. Not much he can do then. As we saw vs Everton, he can find a perfect position when the ball is played on the ground as well and he can score with his feet. It's a given he has to score with his feet. We can't expect him to head home 15-20 goals/season.

Carroll himself? To be brutally honest, he has not been very good so far. That doesn't mean he'll never come good etc, just that I don't think he has been very good so far. I've found it almost painful to watch Suarez play the role as our target man and be better at it than Andy. Carroll has not shown the typical aggression of Bellamy/Kuyt/Suarez, nor the pace and nor the ball control of those players. And when I then watch Kuyt, Maxi and Suarez drop deep (and central) to receive the ball in midfield, it's another part of the game they (but not Carroll) can play. When we combine things, we end up with a player who has to be extremely good at one part of the game, to even justify a place on the bench. He hasn't been extremely good (again, yet). So we end up with a player who is given faith, but is not in the team on merit.

This is when it's necessary to remember the first part. How the team interacts with him. Give him a chance. Play the ball on the ground more often. If defenders know the ball will come in the air, it's so much easier to prepare a plan. If it's played on the ground as well, it will be twice as hard to mark Carroll. Get him moving and we get an even better player. He doesn't have to sprint, just move with the ball, or to the ball. Find a defender who can cope with that for a whole game and we should sign him up. Most likely, Carroll should grind down even the best defenders if we can have him battle with them both on the ground and in the air. 

[Gnurglan]

3. Everton looked at times like they wanted it more.. true or false?

I don't think they wanted it more. If they make careless tackles, like Rodwell did, they have to pay the consequences in some games. We managed to use it to our advantage and I thought we did it wisely. Thought Kenny made good substitutions when he brought on Bellamy and Gerrard. We got fresh legs on and instead of becoming passive, we tried to stay aggressive. Liked that. I also liked how we gave a few minutes to Henderson. This is the kind of gradual change I want to see. Let him play a fairly small, backup role and then change it to a first pick role with time.

[sideshowme]

a poor performance, but a great result, and one that we needed.  we started off looking laboured until the red card.  it should never have been a red, but i can see how it would have looked nastier on first glance.  the momentum we built up after that was more promising.  however, having seen the way we tend to crumble after setbacks recently, i expected that missing a penalty and hitting the bar in quick succession might derail us for the second half.

until the subs came on, we were shapeless overall, with no real strategies.  i wouldn't say that everton wanted it more, but they certainly committed players forward better, and played better in the final third than we did.  one of the reds i was watching with was cursing kenny's refusal to change it up when so many players looked to be failing - downing, kuyt, carroll and adam at the head of the list.  i could see the point of such frustration, but i think i could also see kenny's plan.  keep it tight, tire them out, then unleash the dogs of war...

interestingly, this is the second time in a tight, tricky away game at 0-0 that kenny's late subs have had an immediate impact against a team that had been tired out by their exertions earlier in the game.  the arsenal game played out in a similar fashion.  regardless, my co-watcher commented that he would give kenny "very little credit for this win" for his refusal to change things sooner, which was a little odd.

one thing that was weird, and was an endless source of frustration for me, was the fact that we hardly ever overlapped against the full backs.  indeed, the first time i remember it happening, we scored.  i can't quite get my head around why it should be the case that we didn't pursue this tactic sooner.

bellamy and enrique look like a dream left hand side, and may prove the best source of chances for carroll.  if we ever start a game with enrique/bellamy on the left and johnson/downing on the right, i think carroll might get a hat-trick.

lucas was immense, and i was wincing any time the ball went near him after the second goal for fear that the visually impaired ref might find an excuse to send him off.  had we already made our three substitutions, he should have feigned injury and left the pitch.  we really cannot afford to be without him.

overall the progress on the work in progress progresses.  as our good periods increase in frequency, i get the feeling we are a click away from being the team many of us want to see.  what better time to click than at home against the mancs...

[royhendo]

I don't think it was a particularly poor performance - that's something that's had me scratching my head since really. I'm not sure 1. what people expect or 2. whether they weigh the whole game up. You play what's in front of you, don't you?

[Rafette]

3. Everton looked at times like they wanted it more.. true or false?

I don't think they wanted it more than us- I think it's a case of it being *all* they want. They live for beating us, their aim for the season is always to try and finish above us. This was even made a talking point in the Mirror footy pull out today- can Moyes get them above us in the table?

[DanA]

Regarding the red card it was a poor decision.  I can appreciate that the ref would have warned them prior to the game but really I'm not even sure that was a foul. His studs weren't showing, he got the ball pretty cleanly and there was minimal contact despite Suarez writhing in pain. You'd expect a ref to call a free kick because of the lunging nature and a good ref would have a talk to Rodwell and issue a warning telling him he's treading a fine line. But it was never a red. Still I did a little dance and it put a grin on my face because there something so enjoyable about the bitters getting a bad decision against us and it's the first bad decision this season that's gone our way.

Regarding Adam I agree with most. He's not consistent, is a little weak defensively and far too rash. He probably wouldn't be a Liverpool standard player if he weren't so damn effective. For all his weaknesses he again nearly scored on the weakend and again nearly got us on the scoreboard from a set peice. I've said it before and I'll say it again he'll score 10 goals and get 15 assists this season and I reckon Kenny will be very happy with that.  I'm sure Kenny will be willing to sacrifice a little defensively and put up with a few extra mistakes provided Charlie gives us the goals and assists he looks like he will. The challenge for our coaching staff it to minimize these mistakes and improve him defensively. I think given a season they can do this.


Man of the match for me was Enrique, didn't have a lot to do defensively but seemed to do it well and was an ever present threat going forward. Suarez was excellent as was Lucas and the subs (Gerrard & Bellamy) and despite the missed penalty I thought Kuyt was solid. The rest of the team was down a little I thought but three points is three points. Regarding the penalty it was a little unlucky as it was well placed but lacked the power we are accustomed to seeing from Kuyt.

I thought Kenny did a good job, the game mirrored the Arsenal game a bit actually. Wore them down and then a double sub had an instant impact. Against Arsenal it was Meireles and Suarez, against Everton Gerrard & Bellamy. He's switched on our manager, knows the right moves and when to make them to get a result.

Regarding Carra's position I think that had a lot to do with Cahill. He was cutting inside from the left switching between striker and winger. I think Carra reacted well to that. I suspect it was Skrtel's job to mark Saha and it was him that should have pressed while Carra dropped off in that mix up.

All in all I thought it was pretty even before the red card which isn't a disaster in an away game with Everton. Red card ended it and to me the result never looked in doubt. It was always a matter of when Kenny pulled the trigger on get Gerrard on the pitch. Much as it was with Arsenal (getting Suarez on there).

[KopThat]

It's a shame that a poor decision by the ref all but ended the game as a contest.

We were still far from convincing, and it was the kind of game that could have gone either way.

Kuyt placed his penalty well, needed a bit more power, but a brilliant save from Howard,
and not forgetting the fine tip over by Reina from Cahill.

We were guilty of backing off and giving Saha especially too much room to shoot.

When Gerrard and Bellamy came on we looked a different team, and I'm glad that it was Adam withdrawn instead of Suarez this time.
Adam didn't have a bad game, and wasn't that a cracking shot, it's just that as mentioned he is a bit of a luxury because his chasing back in defence lets him down. Downing had little impact on the game, but Enrique was a real bargain from the Toons.

I know it was a derby and local passions are high, but as a spectacle the abuse directed towards the players was awful to watch and was a bad advertisement for the game, they rightly focus on stamping out racial abuse, this should be next.
What are the Stewards for, they should warn them, and then eject repeat offenders,
at one point there was a whole family abusing our player at a corner.
We are far from blameless, I have seen the same things in a home derby game.
Then the bottles and missiles thrown, there must be cctv in the ground, a swift ban would stamp that sort of thing out,
the FA just issuing a fine to the club means nothing, although with Everton's financial woes, as a team it would hurt them more.

With a bit of luck Gerrard will start against the Mancs and we will step up a notch and do them at home again.

[dsaiteja]

The ref's decision just ended the contest. I thought we were doing just enough to stay in the match until that point.
After the red card, which was unfair, we just wore them down, and eventually got the goals.

Talking about Adam, he does seem to be slow doesn't he? And Gerrard is an obviously better choice than Adam anyday.
Against the Mancs, would love to see Gerrard in the midfield dictating play. The back four is sorted out very nicely. Enrique and Kelly make an awesome fullback pair.
I'm especially impressed with Kelly. his defending is just boss. Enrique too. Just love the way he out-muscles the opponents. 

It was a relief when Carroll scored the opener. I've always liked him and we must give him credit for not slacking off. I was reading the stats ad he actually ran more than Suarez in the match.. We need a player like him.

Against the mancs, hoping that we repeat last season's performance. Gerrard, Lucas, Downing and Kuyt in the midfield with Suarez and Carroll up front is a good formation.

[fowler9_god]

Firstly, I'm chuffed. The whingeing and moaning just makes it all the better for me.
But I'm glad this thread is open though and Charlie Adam is one of the topics.
I've said me piece on the player out there in the Adam thread. I'm thinking of not doing this anymore. 2 reasons...
Some knobs see any concern as their cue to leather the players in question. And other knobheads see it as their chance to put their uber fan hat on and start slinging the heracy accusations.
It's ridiculous and doesn't half fuck up any debate.

But anyway, I think the sane majority of people in have the same questions and concerns about Adam. And I see nothing wrong with disscussing anyone at the club, pros and cons. But there's a bit of perspective called for here. It's not as if we broke the bank to buy a huge name. In my book the lad is a squad member and he's only been playing this regurally because Gerrard, has been out. But we've done pretty much okay with him in the team. A result against the Mancs and were right on their tails. The Spurs game aside, he hasn't been some sort of liability. And I reckon, he could turn out to be a very handy addition to the squad.

I think the main concern is playing him with Carra. No need to go on about why. I think we can all see how exposed and isolated it can leave both of them. Yorky mentions the Saha incident and how Cara can do nothing but jockey him. But watch Adam in the same incident. He's bollacksed. I'm not too sure fitness can can sort this out. He's still looking a wee bit heavy, but I reckon I could have got closer to Saha yesterday. In fairness, he had a lot of ground to make up, but it was the run itself. I reckon me Ma might have beat him with a yard start.
If both him and Carra are in the same line up, that could really cost us. Everton didn't really look a man down yesterday. It took fresh legs and new options to finally open them up. The gap between Adam and Carra was like a chasm on several occasions. A better team could have really hurt us in them incidents.
In a nutshell... I think it is a concern. I don't think it's a huge problem that Adam needs slatting for though. I think Dalglish is more than aware of that, and much more. I'm sure he'll work non stop to put right the problems. And as much as I hate the way scapegoating has crept into our support, I don't think it's a mortal sin to have a decent discussion on anyway at the club. Just slagging them off with no call for it, bang out of order. Discussing the negatives, nothing wrong with that in my book.

The other points... Carroll, I think he's got what it takes. It's teething troubles.
Everton wanting it more... nah, just a shower of yard dogs that always turn this game into a battlefield knowing full well it's their only hope of getting anything from it. Lucky they weren't down to 9 or 8 players by half time. Dirty bastards.

The Adam debate, I have to ask people who'd know more.

From what I observed last season, we'd attack with a 4-4-2, defend with a 4-3-3. As in, the right or the left sided player was basically a CM who can play wide. Last season, I thought we defended really well. We had the most clean sheets. (People should remember that for me the season started after Kenny took over). I think it was because whenever we defend, we'd make it very congested in the middle of the park. I don't think we pressed much, not as much as Rafa anyways, but its not a bad thing. We'd hold our positions, and we'd try to counter. I don't think we will have 60-40 possesions in games. We have impact players, who will counter and get us goals.

About Adam, I am sure Kenny knew what we were buying. Most of us kept an eye on him after the jan link ups, and we knew he had problems without the ball. But at Blackpool, we tried to press him, but he still kept control of the midfield. So it doesn't mean that he cant cope with pressure.  What really is the problem is as you pointed out the defense playing deep and inability of the right sided player, in this case Henderson, to come in the middle and help out the CMs. I think with Gerrard, who'd play as a RCM IMO, will help out much more in defense. Plus  the headache of the opposition to mark him too. What Adam needs to work on is close control in possesion, and get it out when pressed.

I am not overtly worried about Adam, he gives us something very different. Plus a lot of premiership opposition will back off at Anfield and try to park the bus, he might struggle in a few matches where we are pressed, but I think he will do well in general.

I could be off the mark here, but I feel the problem of Adam can be resolved without taking away his qualities. I don't think he should play advanced, just more working players around him. He is no Alonso, I think he can be upgraded when we are in a better position as a club, but right now he has a lot to offer and I for one hope that he turns it around becuase his qualities are so apparent.

[lachesis]

There's a few points to discuss now as we are seven games in under Kennys leadership and we have a string of games and performances to look at.

We had a very good start by our own recent standards which then sort of tailed off. We've had a couple of games in which we could have blown away the clouds that had started to gather. They seem to have drifted away but still remain on the horizon ready to start accumulating again after any sort of performance that doesn't rain goals and produce one touch passing.

With regards to Lucas and Adam in midfield. Lucas has started becoming more adventurous now and spending more time in the opposition half whereas he mainly patrolled the centre circle in previous years. This is probably a sign of him develpping more and becoming more comfortable with his team mates.

Adam was bought because of his attacking prowess, shots from outside the box and killer pass ability. I think it can work it just needs time to gel and for the two players to come to some sort of understanding in their playing style for one to drop and one to hold position.

Having said that the disconnect between midfield and defence has been largely plugged by Agger when he has played, and he is now missed when not playing.

The great debate on Andy Carroll rages on, here's the stats about crosses from the game just gone:




Our crosses rarely come in from behind the defence and even if they do they are inaccurate. We don't give him a chance.

All in all, happy with the win - there were a few instances whereby the ball bounced round the box manically and I thought Shit, bitters gonna get a typical scrappy off the arse goal here.

[steveeastend]

A lot of times it´s been mentioned that we should consider where we were last year at the same time. But to me that is just wrong because it was down to the manager only, Hodgson, and did not represent the quality of the squad back then.

I always compare us to the games after Kenny came in, the games after Gerrard got injured and Torres left. It´s been pretty tough circumstances, everybody would have understood if we would turn out shite, but the opposite happened, we played some great football and it didn´t surprise me.

With Adam and Downing I am just frustrated with their decisions on the pitch which are pretty much the opposite of Maxi or Meireles. I see that Adam is supposed to be a squad player, having his strength which will be useful. But comparing him to the likes of Gerrard is just frightening to watch. When Gerrard and Bellamy came on I thought we were playing a different game from that moment on.

And that wasn´t the case last year under Kenny no? We didn´t even had Gerrard around and hit great form and I think that´s down to players and their decisions and movement on the pitch. In addition to that, our two defenders still stood around 5 meters behind the defensive line, very deep,  which is just frustrating to watch considering Everton played with 10 men for 75 minutes. But it just prooves that they want to cover themselves as they don´t seem to trust the midfield that much in keeping possession.

Carroll improved a lot though, he worked really hard and that has a lot to do with Kenny, I think, who tries to turn Andy in some sort of a modern attacking player, defending, passing and working for the team.

The mancs game could be just the right game at the right time for us though. With Gerrard back, I am very sure the midfield will do dramatically better and this will effect the other formations as well. We probably will play all our regulars, Johnson, Agger and considering the fact that the Mancs do have a lot of problems it could be a great turning point for us this season. With a convincing win, there will be a massive convidence boost which would be very important.

[xavidub]

I really was pleased with our performance.

I thought we played with far more composure than them and this is ultimately what led to them losing a man. They really were never going to get through the game without a red card and were lucky to still have 10 at the end.

Carroll was not as good as his last game but he took his goal really well. I hope we can play more to his feet as I think his technique rather than his aerial ability is his forte.

Adam just looks worse with each game imo. Doesn't seem to have stamina enough for a full game either. We are defensively exposed when he plays. He must not start against the mancs as their pace will destroy him.

Enrique is absolutely superb, better every game.

Downing was disappointing and the way we set up carrolls goal showed how much better it is to get to the by line, something that downing must be compelled to do more.

I was sorry the red card gave them the excuse as I think we would have beaten them fair and square. We aren't the finished article yet though

[Chivasino]

Doesn't seem to have stamina enough for a full game either. We are defensively exposed when he plays. He must not start against the mancs as their pace will destroy him.

He also seems to switch off. Watch Cahill's header that Reina saves from the first half. A midfield runner storms into box past a slowly jogging Adam who doesn't react at all. If that ball is headed back into the area between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot then suddenly we are in a whole heap of trouble.

I thought overall Adam was pretty quiet. It seemed that Lucas was the one who was trying to force the pace and find the incisive ball rather than Adam, as well as protecting the back four. I worry about Adam in a 4-4-2 formation. I think kenny will continue with two up top so Gerrard will come in eventually, hopefully against the Mancs.

The Mancs at home and Chelsea away from last season show good Lucas and, a slightly more restrained, Gerrard can be.

As for the game on Saturday, I think it was pretty even up until the sending off. I thought the Referee was going to pull out a red straight away, just how I saw it at the time. Don't think it was a sending off in hindsight, and I think the ref did his best not to send another blue off after that.

Even though it was even in terms of chances and possession we certainly showed more composure. The defence looked solid enough and we were at least trying to pass it around. The rest of the match panned out as expected really. Nice to have options coming off the bench that can change the game. A two nil win in a derby with both your strikers scoring, we'll take that thank you.

I'm happy enough with the progress we've made  so far with all the new players bedding in, Stevie and Johnson being out injured, Agger's injury and considering the away games we've played. Still a lot of work to do and I think we'll see the fruits of our hard work in the 2nd half of the season. Spurs will push us all the way for that 4th spot IMO.

[Fuzion6]

Fantastic result - it doesn't matter how you play in any derby as the football will always be frenetic and scrappy - the result is paramount. A few points to add to the discussion:

- Don't understand those saying we played badly etc...even in the first half hour before the sending off I didn't see too much threatening from Everton. Cahill's header and Saha's long range effort where the only points of note, but otherwise I thought we still had control on the game. The stats back this up - prior to the sending off we had 62 completed passes compared to Everton's 32.

- I was concerned about the lack of pressure on Saha with regards the long range shot I mention above and another one or two he had during the game. It seemed that the CBs were instructed not to press up on a player and deny space but to drop and make sure you were in line with the rest of the defence and in position. I remember this clearly with Carragher...he went up with Saha half-way but instead of continuing to press/pressure he suddenly drops back to the 18 yard box alongside Skrtel and allows Saha to shoot. I know there is a lot of talk about defensive line etc but this seemed so drilled that I'm sure its part of Clarke's training. We did overall play with a higher line - not as high as I would have liked but that element is improving. One point is that when we drop into two banks fo 4 we look very solid and not likely to concede.

- Gerrard was very impressive when he came on. He played with superb control and discipline that some didn't feel he had and his calming influence was exactly what the midfield needed. He looked mobile and showed good athleticism with his first contribution - winning a header in midfield. I think its clear CM will be his role - Kenny has said thats Gerrard's best position and the most promising part of his cameo was he didn't see the need to do everything himself. Instead he played a proper CM role, played within his position, sprayed some lovely passes and crosses and when Henderson came on dropped nicely into a DM role. Speaking of which I thought Henderson did well when he came on - I wonder if CM may be his position in a few years time.

- Adam will go back to being a squad player with Gerrard's return and I think will play more when we play in a 433/451. As others have said don't think a 442 suits him and Modric brutally exposed that a few weeks ago. Saying that, playing away to a top team Adam will be instrumental as well as against some of the lower ranked teams.

- Carroll is a good finisher...if we can give him more chances he will score. Simple as that - he actually is a top top finisher.

[Zeb]

Our crosses rarely come in from behind the defence and even if they do they are inaccurate. We don't give him a chance.

Interesting those - sure if you dig up ones from him playing for Newcastle, they'd look fairly similar. Thought he had a bit of an odd game - one thing you can't doubt though is just how much he grafts. Really do like that side of his game though you do wonder if him coming quite so deep, quite so frequently is intended.

Not had chance to rewatch the match, but it seemed like we were playing a tad further up the pitch than we have been. Carra certainly seemed to be feeling it at the end (he gets some stick from some quarters, and we all know his limitations, but lord does that man give everything he has for the team). Play also got stretched at times - were we making the pitch big for Everton or was it something on another day we'd be highlighting as a concern?

In any case, nice way to go into the international break. Nice feeling to have for a couple of weeks.

[Eeyore]

The first thing that has struck me is how we have become a bit complacent about going to Goodison and coming away with three points. The fact that we have won on four of our last five visits seems to have masked the fact that Everton is traditionally a very tough place to go and get three points.

Last season Everton were only lost three of their 19 home League games and the season before it was only twice. It's a very hostile place to go and they make it hard for all of the big teams. Given that scenario I thought we were excellent, we stood up to the usual ridiculously overphysical approach, the screaming for every decision and the bear pit of an atmosphere superbly.

The highlight for me was the way we matched Everton's physicality without once overstepping the mark. That in itself was a fine achievement but when you consider the number of players in a red shirt making their Derby debut then great credit must go to Dalglish and Clarke for getting the tone spot on.

As for the game I must say I was both shocked and surprised at the line up, not Liverpool's but Everton's given the pre-match whining and hand wringing from the likes of Moyes I was truly amazed when Everton entered the field with a full compliment of players.

As they say the difference was clearly the difference in quality on the bench, it must of been a shock for Moyes to only have half a dozen Premier League winning Phil Neville and two £10m wide players in Bilyletdinov and Drenthe to bring on.

I couldn't get a ticket for the Liverpool end and have vowed never to sit in the Everton end again so I watched the game on Sky. Just before Rodwell's Red a caption flashed up showing that Liverpool had enjoyed an overwhelming possession with us having the ball for 66% of the time. Surprisingly by half time Sky were suddenly saying the game had been even up until the sending off and now according to some Everton were supposedly on top.

For me we had taken control of the game from the off and had kept Everton to a couple of half chances whilst Suarez had a real opportunity with the header and should of been found a couple of minutes earlier when in the clear. How Everton managed to keep ten players on the pitch never mind Eleven is beyond me. Some of the challenges they continually put in during Derbies is scandalous, the ridiculous thing is once the snapping and snarling subsided they actually played some good stuff and kept us at bay for long periods.

As it goes I think Kenny got it pretty much spot on we kept the ball pretty well, moved it pretty well and basically worked Everton into the ground without overcommiting and giving Everton something to hang on to. Whilst we didn't play great and the deepness of the defence is still causing us problems, Adam in particular is struggling because of it. Personally I always thought there was an air of inevitability about it. We drew the sting out of Everton and then finished them off with a quick one two of Gerrard and Bellamy at the right time. There was no chance of a smiling LMA imposter bending over and taking it off Moyes this year, this year Moyes was all about scowl instead of receiving a gift wrapped 3 points of a smiling owl.

We did what we needed to and now hopefully we can step it up in our next game the way we have against United, City, Arsenal and Chelsea under Kenny. Onwards and upwards.

[The Cobbler]

The derby game is primarily about winning,the performance always has to be viewed as secondary when conducting a rational analysis.
The media always loves an underdog and everything about our blue cousins screams dog. Snapping, snarling and continually barking. When I was a kid at school many moons ago, our teacher said empty vessels make the most noise and that holds true today.

Everton are a club on life support, they are empty in terms of quantity and quality and their fans think that simply by screaming abuse and bile, it will inspire their players to beat us, actually it only inflames them and is counterproductive. There is a reason why they've only won 1 of the last 10 derby matches and it's simple, they are wholly consumed by the idea of beating us - it has truly become their cup final and has become disproportionate in their season - it has become an out of control for them - players and supporters alike - hence the large number of sendings off 13 out of 20 from the blue side.

This is not a game which you can therefore judge rationally because to one side it is now an irrational obsession and is season defining.

Nobody loves beating Everton more than me, I saw my first derby in 1966 ( I was 9) and it was a 0-0 draw, god it was shit to watch, but the teams were evenly matched in quality.Now we have a media driven fairy story of a poor blue v rich red contest and some of you get upset because the likes of Sky won't praise us when we win.

I said to one evertonian on saturday night when he was doing his usual victim/martyr impression - look in the paper on Sunday morning and read the final score, it's not going to change, we won - end of.

We'll know just how far we've come this season at about 3pm on Saturday 15th October - you may loathe Man Utd, but they are a proper test and remember in March this year we battered them at Anfield, so it's a more accurate barometer of progress.

Derby games are something you just endure, keep calm, win the battle, take the points, leave them crying in their beer.....

[leivapool]

Watched this a couple of times now, it's the sweet taste of victory

Right, Adam.  Before we bought him, I thought he was a perfect MOTD players, but was 're-educated' by RoyHendo one day who said that Adam was the perfect pass and move player.  Well, I'm sorry Roy, but so far I'm not seeing it.  Infact, I'm not seeing much to be honest.  Apart from one shot, a good one I agree, he adds nothing at the moment.  So I have to ask, are we seeing the real Charlie Adam?  Is this the player that was nominated for PFA player fo the season or whatever it was? 

Few things jump out at me.  Firstly, I keep reading how fantastic Adam is at set-pieces and corners.  Well, not in this match he wasn't.  Four corners, one too long, one to the Everton GK, one cleared by Saha and one that went to Carroll, but he couldn't do much with it.  Ok, so what about free kicks, well a short one, and one hit in to the wall.  It's hardly impressive stuff is it?  Frankly, I'm pretty sure if Lucas/Enrique/Henderson/Bellamy/Gerrard/insert name of other LFC player here,  had the opportunity to take all the free kicks and corners, they'd have managed at least what Adam managed, if not better, and he's supposed to be a specialist.

Secondly, why does Adam always look so knackered, it's like joe Cole mkII.  It's certainly not because of all the pressing and tracking of runners that he does as far as I can see.  As for tackling, according to the chalkboards Adam didn't attempt a single tackle on the floor.  Can we really afford to have aCM who never tackles?  I'm pretty sure this is becuase he is nervous after the red from the Spurs game, but we just cannot have a CM when we play 4 4-2 who can't defend.

Now the only conclusion I can come to is that Adam is not suited to being in a midfield 2, and needs two defensive players in the middle with him.  If this is the case, should we really be re-arranging our team to fit Adam in?  Certainly he seems to be struggling, and I was glad when he got the hook.

Finally, and whether this is connected to my second point, but Adam and Lucas haven't really established any sort of understanding yet in my opinion.  I knew something wasn't working between them while watching this match, but couldn't put my finger on it until Gerrard came on.  Instantly Gerrard and Lucas started passing it around, Lucas to Gerrard, back to Lucas, to Kuyt, back to Lucas, etc, pass and move was back.  It didn't require any Gerrardesque match saving  to finally get the goal, it just required us to have 2 CM's confident in each other ability, and an understanding that if you keep the ball, and move the opposition around with quick quality passing eventually space will open up for the right pass, the defence splitting ball to the forward in the right space.  In this match Adam always looked to pass the ball out wide, he never looked to pass 'vertically' forward.  It was pretty one-dimensional, and with Downing having a poor game we gained nothing from it.  With Kuyt and Suarez constantly moving around the forward line, the vertical pass is often more effective, and Lucas particularly used it to good effect to Suarez and Kuyt a number of times.

In contrast to Adam, I think Carragher and Skrtel played really well.  I was critical of how deep Carragher played last match, but although he was deep on Saturday he defended well with Skrtel, and the distribution from our CB's was markedly improved.  Moment of the match defensively was the extended look we got of Carragher trying to move Skrtel to  where he wanted Skrtel to be to defend a corner.  Skrtel either didn't understand, or didn't agree, and Carra must have told him 5 times.  I don't think Skrtel did move either.

Kuyt certainly played his part in tightening up the midfield and his movement both with and without the ball must be  nightmare to defend against, he's never still.  Great intelligence to duck and let the ball go through to Carroll for the goal, and unselfish too. Still liable to make the odd lose pass, and gave Lucas  a real hospital pass that led to his booking, but overall I think he was really good.  Bellamy was also bright when he came on.

Enrique was almost perfect, played really well defensively, and I like what he does in the attacking third.  But he did give me the scare of the match when, as covering defender at a corner he lost the ball and our whole defence had to scramble back at full speed.  Not a good moment, and could have cost us big time.  Don't want to see that again please Enrique!

For me Kenny got his subs spot on.  Downing was almost invisible, and Adam had a poor game in my opinion, and I don't think Everton getting tired was the only reason we scored.  Gerrard and Bellamy slotted in and instantly found their understanding with Lucas, Kuyt, Suarez and Carroll.  And lets not forget Carroll, his first goal, and he was industrious.  He works hard for the team, and I like him.

Overall, better than at Wolves, but we still need a bit of tinkering.  It' good that Adam and Downing have now been substituted so early in the match, as it shows we really do have the making of a squad, not just a squad of players, but a squad of players who are actually capable of genuinely challenging for the places.  Downing now knows that if he doesn't play at the top of his game he will get subbed, or maybe not even start, same for Adam.  Henderson and Carroll already knew this.  Agger returning will provide competition at CB, so our squad is deepening nicely.  4 CB's for 2 spots, 4 FB's for 2 spots, 4 CM's for 2 spots, 4 wide players for 2 spots, and a few attacking options as well.  Shaping up nicely.

Final point.  Why is Lucas picking up cards so quickly?  I mean, he's certainly not tackling worse than last season where I think he got 8 yellows all season.  This season he already has 4 in 8 matches.  Are the refs being stricter?  Is Lucas having to go in for more tactical fouls to prevent clear goal scoring opportunities to the opposition?  It's a little worrying, as we could do without losing him for 3 matches if he gets too many cards this side of christmas.  Maybe Kenny will get him to gain a  tactical yellow so he misses the Stoke Carling Cup game? 

Highlight of the match besides the goals?  Lucas's fist pump and subsequent beaming smile and hug from Kenny. 

[Rafa_La]

Blackpool at Anfield in 2010, disaster.

Everton away in 2011, victory.

I know which is sweeter

[Sangria]

In this match Adam always looked to pass the ball out wide, he never looked to pass 'vertically' forward.  It was pretty one-dimensional, and with Downing having a poor game we gained nothing from it.  With Kuyt and Suarez constantly moving around the forward line, the vertical pass is often more effective, and Lucas particularly used it to good effect to Suarez and Kuyt a number of times.

Note the pass directly forward to feet that Lucas specialises in. The attacking player in the centre comes towards Lucas for the pass. Lucas hits it low and hard to his feet, with enough pace for the receiver to just deflect the ball in the direction he wants, and the ex-receiver then turns and makes for the danger area, having dragged his marker out of position and left him to think about following the ball or following the man he was marking. This happened a number of times in this game, but the best example in the past that I can immediately think of is Lucas to Babel against Hull. Kuyt on the wing, Babel in the middle. Babel comes towards Lucas, who hits it hard to his feet. Babel deflects it to Kuyt in space, then turns and heads for the box. Nothing quite as immediately successful in this game, but you can still see the basic patterns of pass and move. Don't go for the direct pass with all the defenders in position. Move the ball around, wait for runners to move the defenders around, then and only then, move the ball quickly.