Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[Juan Loco]

Carra can be slagged off for being ponderous but arguably there were instances where no one came to help him out. Alonso would have helped out greatly in that way.

Isn't that part of the problem? Too many players in the starting 11 that need to be 'helped out' with the ball at their feet. Can't handle the ball under pressure, can't pick out a pass, can't receive a pass unless they're in oceans of space - and as a result - usually miles away from any area where they can positively affect the play.


Y'know, it's not really rocket science when we think about it. I mean I know we intellectualise and theorize on this thread (perhaps too much), but it's pretty simple really:

Carragher with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine.
Skrtel with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine
Kuyt with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine.

... 3 of them all together, along with the likes of Arby and Masch, who are fairly neat technically, but not exactly Xavi and Iniesta and suddenly you've got 3-5 (depending on how you want to view it) who aren't particularly comfortable in receiving the ball under any sort of pressure... which adds up to about half of your out field players.

When half your team are, at best, 'modest' in possession, you're not going to hold on to the ball as well as you should. If you have less of the ball then you have to defend more. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. We need grafters because we come under pressure more than United but the reason we come under pressure more than them is because we're filled with grafters.

I wonder if we'd get more from Xabi if he didn't have to do quite so much 'helping' in his game, or if he didn't have think twice about which pass he plays because he knows "player X" will probably struggle to get it under control or at very best, just end up going 20 yards backwards if he passes the ball to them.

[Manila Kop]

--- Not the passing so much but the inability to keep hold of the ball. I think it was nervousness that made guys like Benayoun more sloppy than usual. Additionally, we backed off from making ourselves open for the pass. Carra can be slagged off for being ponderous but arguably there were instances where no one came to help him out. Alonso would have helped out greatly in that way. Also got to give credit to Man City--- they really upped the tackling in the second half and no matter how incisive your passing is, when the other team raises the physical stakes so much, you either respond equally or fade away like we did till we got the goal.

Yes, I thought Kompany, Zabaleta and de Jong all did a good job pressuring for the ball.  Ireland as well, tracks back but busts a gut to get back into the attack.  You could feel the momentum slipping away from us in the second half.

--- Well even if he holds out hope, I don't think Rafa will feel so inclined to give the second chance. In the other games where Lucas has been criticized, you could see the effort he put in which justified the renewed faith. There was an enormous amount of faith placed in him when Mascherano went off. He shirked from it.

To be honest, it was not really the defensive part of his game which irritated me.

Perhaps, but it just feels like Rafa backs Lucas a lot (thus keeping him on over Masch) and has given him opportunities to redeem himself before even when some in our support have written him off.

Why would Rafa want Lucas to make himself even more ineffective? If that was the case, why would he stick with him rather than Mascherano when we were chasing the goal?

Part of the conundrum discussed brilliantly by the likes of Degs - that Rafa wants Lucas chained around the central area instead of going forward, but his tackling and tracking back are not as good as someone you'd want in that position while his attacking abilities aren't really utilized fully.  Even when Masch went off, Lucas still has a slightly better passing range than Masch - it's his defensive abilities that let him down.

Will be interesting to see the chalkboards on the game yesterday for Lucas and Masch.

[Manila Kop]

I wonder if we'd get more from Xabi if he didn't have to do quite so much 'helping' in his game, or if he didn't have think twice about which pass he plays because he knows "player X" will probably struggle to get it under control or at very best, just end up going 20 yards backwards if he passes the ball to them.

You mean like when he plays for Spain, basically. 

[Manila Kop]

So, have we reached a tipping point?  Fans baying for blood, pundits handing the trophy to the Mancs, Rafa's contract yet to be signed, Agger not even on the bench, an in-form Real Madrid up next...we either explode in a blaze of glory like last season or implode in recriminations and bitterness.

I was thinking about this, the difficulty of a long-term project and appreciating what we already have, given all the disappointments that can happen in one league season, while reading this article by Sam Wallace.  Always liked his stuff, and this one just hit me in the gut - stuff bolded for emphasis.  You can imagine Mourinho going here, and doing what he does for 2-3 seasons...and we spend a decade trying to undo the damage.  We'll win trophies, and maybe there won't be the deep disappointment of watching us draw at home to teams we should be battering...but there's a price to be paid, as Chelsea have found.

Sam Wallace: If your club has a problem, and no one else can help, call ... the J-Team
Talking Football: What happens when a club needs a tangible philosophy to pass on to a new generation
Monday, 23 February 2009

On a Californian morning in July 2007, Jose Mourinho, then Chelsea manager, held court in Beverly Hills. Have you realised, he was asked, this is the first time in your career you have started a fourth consecutive season with the same club? It stopped Mourinho in his tracks for a moment. He hadn’t. In two months he was gone.

Mourinho is back in the consciousness of English football, starting today when he will be expected to deliver one of his epochal press conferences and tomorrow when his Internazionale team take on Manchester United in the first leg of their Champions League tie. He is up against Mr. Ferguson, a man whom he briefly regarded as an equal over two title-winning years from 2004 to 2006 when Manchester United struggled with their own turmoil and Mourinho’s Chelsea cleaned up.

But Mourinho will not be Ferguson’s equal, even if his team eliminate United come 11 March, as his Porto side did five years ago. He will not be Ferguson’s equal if he picks up his second Champions League title in May, although that will mean he has won that competition as many times as Ferguson. The only way Mourinho can be a comparable figure with Ferguson is if he throws in his lot with a club for the long haul, instead of the butterfly existence you expect he will lead all his coaching life.

Let’s not forget that when Mourinho departed Chelsea, four days before his side were due at Old Trafford, he did so quite willingly. His team, he knew, had come to the end of its cycle. Already the word in Italy is that Mourinho quite fancies a new challenge next season, perhaps even the Premier League. Maybe, as he said himself, Chelsea. He has nothing but scorn for managers who say they need time to settle into the job. But what about managers who never stay for long?

Watching from a distance, Mourinho has been through his now familiar card already at Internazionale. He has charmed and then provoked the Italian press. He has picked on one manager and tried to bury him with scarcely concealed contempt: now it is Claudio Ranieri where once it was Arsène Wenger. Judging by the win over Milan last week his team play the same brisk style as Chelsea did, knocking the ball long to a big striker. Instead of Didier Drogba there are Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Adriano.

Talented though he is, Mourinho is in danger of becoming the coach for hire, a mercenary reliving the same plot about as many times as George Peppard and the rest did in The A-Team. Their respective approaches are not that different. At every club Mourinho retreats into a bunker where he remoulds the team into some monstrous but effective hybrid capable of crushing the opposition. If your club has a problem, if no one else can help, call Mourinho.

He thrives on the momentum of his initial impact, although if you check the records he has never taken on a lost cause. When he took charge of Porto in January 2002 they had finished second in the Portuguese league the previous season. Chelsea were second the season before he became manager. Internazionale have been champions for the past three years before this summer. None of them was a club in crisis.

But what happens when the Mourinho magic fades, when two seasons down the line the team needs breaking up and rebuilding? What happens when a club needs a philosophy tangible enough that it can be passed to another generation of players? That was when, at Chelsea, Mourinho started to think about leaving. His rift with Roman Abramovich? Ferguson survived a much more sustained personal attack from the Cubic Expression shareholders in 2004 than Mourinho ever did from Abramovich.

The kindest thing to say is that while Mourinho is a great coach, Ferguson is a great manager. Ferguson has mastered the wider, more complex art of managing the life of a big football club and the infinite problems that presents. It requires a more sophisticated outlook than fixating upon the minutiae of your best XI. What Ferguson has done – and what Mourinho has shown no sign of attempting to do – is build an institution that is self-renewing, programmed to succeed.

Can Mourinho do it? He is only 46, just two years older than Ferguson was when he took over at United, and he is already much more successful than Ferguson was at that age. No one is saying he has to spend 22 years at the same club, but there will for ever be a hole in his career if he does not prove that he can throw his credibility and his reputation with a club and create something bigger and more enduring than just his own standing in the world.

It takes a kind of maturity to do that. A willingness to accept that on occasion you might be embarrassed, even let down, by the club that you manage. During games at Old Trafford, Ferguson does not get anything like the adulation from the home crowd you might expect for a man with his record. “Fergie, Fergie give us a wave” was the best of it as his team beat Fulham on Wednesday. Perhaps it is the years, the ups and downs, the sheer familiarity.

As Mourinho would probably tell him, to be really appreciated you have to leave. Should Mourinho return to Stamford Bridge in the Champions League this season he will, in all likelihood, be treated with reverence. That is what leaving does for a manager’s reputation: supporters only remember the good times. It is staying that is hard, trying to impress them all over again every week.

[Juan Loco]

You mean like when he plays for Spain, basically. 

Aye, but to a greater degree. He's subservient to Xavi for Spain, if we're honest. He's the foil, not the focus. Here, he is the general. Despite the press loving to suggest it's Gerrard, it's Xabi who is closest to our Vieira or Keane. The guy who makes us play. Gerrard is on the periphery, right until he steals the headlines. Xabi's the guy who makes it work for the majority of the match. Be interested to see how he'd do in that role when being our General involved less of carrying the wounded back from the trenches.

[nocturnalvin]

i think its quite clear that with the analysis of the players we have, their lack of ability on the ball, it would hard to play dominant football that results in wins.

I've always used, for a lack of a better word, "guile" as the missing ingredients, and it is an ingredient regardless of how tactically brilliant the manager or the team as a whole is, football involves the human factor of split-seconds decision making, including when to pass, who to pass etc.

If we study more of the Mancs and Barca, they clearly have players who can do that.

And another point is, movement.  Look at the same two teams.  Whenever a player gets the ball, we can see almost every other player moving ALL THE TIME.  That is also lacking in our team, not just against Manchester City.
Only at times we turn it on.

Btw, i thought Lucas had a poor game, but so did many others. Lucas, a player i do rate in a way, somewhat reminds me of Scholes, but an old Scholes, with lesser energy and dynamism.

[Juan Loco]

I think I'll call it a night in a bit, but before I do, I do think I should point out a positive:

We've got as strong a case as anyone to being the 3rd best team in Europe. Unfortunately one of the two that are better than us are in the same league. Still, we're fucking good, even with all the evident flaws. 3rd best in Europe? Certainly top 5 along with the two obvious candidates and probably Real Madrid and Inter Milan.

It ain't the worst place in the world to be. I guess the reason I'm miserable at the moment is because it's so obvious that it's close. I don't just mean the league, I mean getting this team 'complete'. ... But then it was last summer, and we didn't take the opportunity to attempt to complete it.

Y'know, all logic would suggest it's a time to be positive. We've got an outstanding base to build off, and even if Arby and Aurelio aren't the two most attack minded fullbacks in the world, if we just supplemented them with two quality wingers, it wouldn't matter. That is all it is. Two players, and we will have money to spend. Whether you dislike G&H or not, and I certainly don't like the fact that all the cash spent by Rafa is more than likely putting the club further in debt, we have had money to spend in their two summers here. Must be approaching £100m spent (although plenty of that recoupled) in the time they've been here.

I guess it comes down to whether you have a belief that Rafa thinks we just need to take that attacking step. To buy those two players, give them the freedom to operate, and suddenly give us 4 quality players up top instead of two. It would take us up a whole level and we all know it. But will Rafa do it? It was the same last summer and it was Gareth fuckin' Barry that was the priority. Who is to say it wont be the same next time 'round?

... Fuck, that's not really positive is it? Oh well. We're still close and the next step is so obvious. ... Which I guess is why Rafa doesn't want to take it. If A is right and B is wrong Rafa will take C and try and mindfuck everyone whilst being right at the same time.

*grumble*

We are bloody good though. Let's not let that escape people.

Oh, and I'll throw this in there to make it more positive:

We are arguably the 3rd best team in Europe. We are in our first title race in god knows how long and are doing so in a season where our owners, manager, chief-executive and christ knows who else are bickering. In a season where our manager has allowed his contract talks to dominate the headlines. In a season where our stalwart at the back is declining before our very eyes and when the heir to the throne of Sammer, the next in line for the great list of liberos, is being isolated from our squad. In a season where our Moaning Fathead O'Airshot looked no more a £20m striker than I do a gangster rapping ballerina. In a season where our transfer policy was used as a game of political chess. In a season where our manager has been out with kidney stones..

In that season we're 2nd, in our best position for fuck knows how long. Rafa may be responsible for more than a small amount of that is disrupting us but at the same time, he's worked a minor miracle to get us where we are at the moment. It is against all odds.

[Manila Kop]

Weird though, innit?  We're the team with the least league defeats in Europe but somehow we all feel like Liverpool have failed.  But as Rusty Oysterburger but it so succinctly:

It's part of a process.

To win the title you need to turn losses into draws and draws into wins.

It's easier to do the former - which is why we've done it first.

We're in the process of doing the latter - note this season's trait of scoring last-minute winners.

Yes things are not ideal at the moment but it should be pretty clear to everyone that we're moving in the right direction.

[Mimi]

Isn't that part of the problem? Too many players in the starting 11 that need to be 'helped out' with the ball at their feet.

--- Or helping out can also result in the ball being moved up field with quick little passes. This is the method Rafa prefers and what we do best when we're on song. Agger against Portsmouth---- most effective move--- beautiful punt out wide to Arbeloa who one-touched it to Benayoun. Yossi slipped as he shot so it came to nothing but the idea was great. Least effective--- Dan running through the middle, opting not to pass to the player on his left and getting tackled by three defenders.

In the latter part of today's game when City stepped off, we had time to pick out a pass. Problem is no one made themselves available. It was infuriating to watch Carra and Skrtel knock it between themselves while Lucas stood gormlessly in the middle.

You have a point in that we don't have guys with the greatest technical capability. That's why it is paramount that our movement be better. Blame should be laid at Rafa's door for this--- we can do it as we've seen in our best games this season, I'm not sure why it goes out the window in these tied games. Movement without the ball is one thing the Mancs can do better than anyone in this League.

Watching Arsenal against Sunderland--- all of Arsenal's players have better touch than the likes of Carra, Kuyt etc--- but they were just as ineffective. Their movement was predictable, they held onto passes for too long. Just like we do.

As you say, we have a problem with receiving the ball under pressure. However, there were parts of the game where we weren't under pressure but still did nothing with the ball.

I wonder if we'd get more from Xabi if he didn't have to do quite so much 'helping' in his game, or if he didn't have think twice about which pass he plays because he knows "player X" will probably struggle to get it under control or at very best, just end up going 20 yards backwards if he passes the ball to them.

---- Yeah, I understand. I find that Arbeloa-Kuyt-Xabi triangle infuriating. Worse for me than watching Carra punt it up field. But as for whether we can get more from him--- I genuninely think he likes this role and is the one he is most comfortable with it in the League. Watching him play with Mascherano especially the Portsmouth game. Which of the two went up? Masche.  Alonso being content to collect passes from the defenders and then pass forward. He doesn't run with the ball or carry it into the box, so in that way the metronome role suits him.

He understandably works with restrictions when he goes from passing to the likes of Xavi or Villa or Iniesta to Kuyt. It must be shocking on some level but it shouldn't be impossible. Passes can be tailored and he does it a lot the time. Quick little passes as the players get around him get into better positions.

Like in many of the tied games, we don't do enough to minimize our weaknesses.  It's not down just to the missing players for the particular game. I'm pretty sure we've played a combination of all players in these tied games. The same problems keep reoccurring.

Undoubtedly some of it is mental--- not just down to the manager--- once the City goal went in, our players relaxed. Even the much maligned Carra started to run with the ball.  They started making tackles, they started running better, more effort was made to controlling the passes. And momentum wavered once the equaliser went in and we were expected to dominate. City even sat back preparing for the onslaught. It's so weird--- I can't really think of any other team in sport who is hardwired this way--- underdogs to the tee.

[royhendo]

I can feel the palpable gloom on this thread...I won't even bother to check out the main boards.

So, have we reached a tipping point?  Fans baying for blood, pundits handing the trophy to the Mancs, Rafa's contract yet to be signed, Agger not even on the bench, an in-form Real Madrid up next...we either explode in a blaze of glory like last season or implode in recriminations and bitterness.

while we're on the Xmas theme, let me don my Ebeneezer Scrooge hat for a moment...

this is exactly the kind of thinking that might hamstring our long-term progress (which has continued year-on-year under Rafa, regardless of the neverending sequence of boardroom catastrophes and signing debacles that have hindered him).

"this year i expect the league" is exactly what leads to the mass knee-jerk calls for Rafa's removal down the line if things don't go exactly to plan, and that's precisely what we need to avoid at all costs. we have a sh_tstorm behind the scenes that badly affects our club's finances, but even in those conditions, Rafa and his staff have a sophisticated 3-tier plan in place that's going to ensure we can still improve and win trophies when times are tight and the banks are on the blower asking for their interest payments. we have a sophisticated set-up in place and we need continuity.

that's why Carragher's call to 'challenge' is more sensible. in case you haven't noticed, we don't seem to be getting Gareth Barry, and we've been unable to get one or two other first-choice picks in the not too distant past. this might be rafa's squad, but in quality terms we've got a year or two to go before we reach the level you're hinting at here - we still have the odd chink in our armour. i'd not hold Cavaieri out as an unqualified success just yet, for example.

Rafa and his staff need enough time to demonstrate the results of the youth pipeline. i for one won't be demanding justifications until the likes of Pepper and Dalla Valle reach age 21-22. then the plan will have been seen through its first cycle, and we'll be in a genuine position to judge its effectiveness. the results thus far are impressive - everyone's agreed that Pacheco and Nemeth are exciting prospects. give it time and let's keep our heads on, cos unqualified expectation is a dangerous thing.

[royhendo]

Nice one with the vids Roy BMW

[royhendo]

I was thinking about this, the difficulty of a long-term project and appreciating what we already have, given all the disappointments that can happen in one league season, while reading this article by Sam Wallace.  Always liked his stuff, and this one just hit me in the gut - stuff bolded for emphasis.  You can imagine Mourinho going here, and doing what he does for 2-3 seasons...and we spend a decade trying to undo the damage.  We'll win trophies, and maybe there won't be the deep disappointment of watching us draw at home to teams we should be battering...but there's a price to be paid, as Chelsea have found.

D'you know, it's almost as if Sam Wallace had been reading this thread.

Enjoyed that MK and needless to say I thoroughly agree with him on all fronts.

[b_joseph]

The movement off the ball thing is or at least looks to be a managers thing. When you have fluid movement off the ball, you do leave yourself open at times to be short in a certain area of the pitch and maybe having to deal with a 1 on 1.
Rafa doesnt want these things, any time we have had a game that is somewhat open. He talks about how the game was too crazy or how it wasnt being controlled. Thats an issue because unlike other team sports, final 3rd football is very much off the cuff. You cant plan for what you need to do in the final 3rd and constantly wanting to control a game wont allow for this freedom of expression.

The 2nd half yesterday should have been a dream come true for us because City actually came out and started committing players up the field.
Thats what we have wanted all season long at Anfield..A team that would park the bus and would genuinely go for it. But what do we do, we start giving the ball away and allow the perfect opportunity for creating chances pass us by.

We can talk about players who are not good enough and players that would be good enough...Heck, we all do it every day. But until our team is allowed to be let off its leash, it probably wont make much difference because there will always be something holding them back.
Robbie Keane isnt a shit player..but something was holding him back.
Ryan Babel isnt a shit player...something is holding him back.


I was watching Lampard on Saturday. Watching his movement and his willingness to support the Chelsea front 3. Not even a front 2..a front 3.
He was absolutely amazing at getting in beyond the furthest man forward and getting himself with a steady distance away of being an option for quick give and goes on the edge of the box.
Did that leave Chelsea open on the break? Ofcourse it did but there was a trust factor in allowing their defenders to do their job and not needed so many players to thwart a threat.

[BazC]

The thing with Lucas is that he's playing in the wrong position. He's clearly a quality attacking player- he was the only one freely playing forward passes from midfield yesterday that weren't long balls. By the end, when he had more responsibility, he was missing those passes- at a time when we really needed them find the targets.

I'm starting to really think Rafa's making a massive mistake here. I've never seen Lucas as a CM in that holding role, but gave it a chance because it was Rafa's idea. He's never looked good in that area, and it's time for Rafa to rethink it. Lucas' forward passing and vision is just being wasted, and his ineptness in defending is being highlighted where he's playing.

I've always admired Fabregas- truly a great attacking midfielder. But you wouldn't play him in a holding role would you? Lucas may not be at Fabregas' level, but (as I've been saying for ages now) he'd still be a quality player in that position. An attacking midfielder in that mould or a top second striker was exactly what I wanted to see brought in to improve our attacking football. But Rafa's still playing him as a holding player.

Rafa did this with Kuyt as well when he first came. Stuck him in that second striker role where he was just abysmal. It took Rafa a season and a half to sort the problem out and move Kuyt out wide- when it was apparent for so, so long. I do think Rafa needs to sort this Lucas thing out soon, unlike he did with Kuyt.

[kaz1983]

This thread has got a move on since I last logged on, I'll have go back and re-read it.

Regarding Liverpool FC, our progress and everything happened of late, well what can you say - all I can think is that if we weren't at a serious tipping point right, in the summer will bloody well will be regarding summer signings and what areas/positions will be focused on strengthing ... personally I'd like to see us sign 1 or 2 quality versitile attacking mids - Simao/Maxi/Valencia/Fernandez? and a quality attacking fullback ... that said if Rafa wants to use Lucas in the Gerrard role more next season, maybe even shifting Gerrard to the right some games - then have Lucas and Gerrard switching positions throughout the match.

[Degs]

Reckon we should make a chalkboards thread to stop this one loading slow?

[Mimi]

The thing with Lucas is that he's playing in the wrong position.

How on earth was he being played in the wrong position yesterday? Just even the last ten minutes, what was so wrong with his position that he felt he couldn't move out of the center circle?

There's nothing wrong with the way Rafa plays Lucas, Baz. He has misplayed other players but not Lucas. Many of us hoped he would be an attacking playmaker sort of like Fabregas. He has the skill to play in Gerrard's position behind Torres if Gerrard is injured. But Lucas himself and those in Brazil say his position is closer to that of a holding midfielder. Not quite as defensive as we understand it but supposed to be link between the back and the attackers. At his best, last year around the Inter games, he did this by moving the ball upfield with quick little passes and then running into the box. Clearly the strain of previous unfortunate outings and shows of public disapproval have taken their toll.

[b_joseph]

I'm not sure about that Baz. I genuinely think Lucas can play in a middle 2 but he just isnt ready to be the main passer in a middle 2.

Unlike Gerrard when he was 22, Lucas doesnt have the arrogance to try and take over a game when the team needs a spark.
Unlike Alonso, he doesnt have the ability to be the engine when the team is struggling to play.

So it just means that for the time being, he will only thrive when Xabi is playing next to him...especially against good teams.
Again, if we had genius in wide areas, we could deal with not having Xabi and Lucas would look like a genius. The sad thing is that our deficiencies in other areas are making Lucas look bad and too many tunnel visioned folks are piling all of the blame on the poor fella.

Put Lucas in that Man United team next to Carrick or Scholes and he would look like a champion.

[Degs]

Lucas and Mascherano cannot work, and Rafa refuses to try and make it work.

The old cliche in football is "You could throw a blanket over the pair of them" and it's true in the case of these 2.
What we have when Alonso partners Mascherano is a player who is solid in the tackle and who's range of passing is so sublime that it means he can play deeper.

When Lucas plays next to Mascherano the passes are all short, lateral, and predictable.
Players from the oppoisition midfield get on to Lucas all the time, he plays a short ball along the floor to either the winger or an overlapping full-back.  Every time.
The balls he plays go nowhere, the ones he tries to play foreward are almost always over-hit.

In a game like yesterday this means that the onus is on a player to push forward out of the 2 deeper players to link the play with runs and short balls rather than long cross field balls that Alonso uses.
Yesterday the onus, for some unknown reason, fell to Mascherano.  I feel sorry for the fella because he now had to make the tackles that Lucas is unable to, because even Lucas' most ardent supporters will tell you he cannot tackle, then he had to run through the middle, play the ball like a playmaker, or shoot.
Then Lucas fans have a cheek to say Mascherano had a bad game, it's not a bad game if you're at least trying.

All too often I've heard "Well he didn't do anything wrong so he had a good game".

Seriously? What. The. Fuck?

Is that the standard for Liverpool now?  Play short meaninless balls to avoid the possibility of a game changing pass not coming off?

I'm in the camp of play him as an attacking midfielder, I've seen highlights of him at Gremio, a danger in and around the box, and I've seen him press on for the reserves but if he hasn't got the confidence, intelligence, or will to do it from deep when we're 1-0 down then what's the point in him playing the Gerrard position when he's scared to do anything different.

Paisley said to Rush "Don't be scared to miss", Lucas needs ot be told if he loses the ball he won't be crucified, if he misses a shot it won't end his career.
As it is he's the epitome of nothingness, a waste of a red shirt when he's on the pitch.

Here's the chalkboard of passing from when we went 1-0 down to 1-1.
Kuyt gets some stick, from me as well, but at least when we go 1-0 down he tries his hardest, as does Mascherano. If Lucas had half the energy and commitment of Mascherano he might have a future here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/i80Z339Sbn91Z2q9T2L5

[BazC]

How on earth was he being played in the wrong position yesterday? Just even the last ten minutes, what was so wrong with his position that he felt he couldn't move out of the center circle?

There's nothing wrong with the way Rafa plays Lucas, Baz. He has misplayed other players but not Lucas. Many of us hoped he would be an attacking playmaker sort of like Fabregas. He has the skill to play in Gerrard's position behind Torres if Gerrard is injured. But Lucas himself and those in Brazil say his position is closer to that of a holding midfielder. Not quite as defensive as we understand it but supposed to be link between the back and the attackers. At his best, last year around the Inter games, he did this by moving the ball upfield with quick little passes and then running into the box. Clearly the strain of previous unfortunate outings and shows of public disapproval have taken their toll.

Of course Lucas had to stay in the centre circle at the end. We were close to getting ripped apart numerous times on the break when Masch went off as we just went for it with only one CM. Had Lucas joined the attack we'd have been even shorter in that area- with no CMs to cover. He did exactly the right thing because Rafa will have (rightly) told him to stay in the middle and use his passing from there to support the attack. But he's no Xabi. Not even half way there yet.

He's playing in the wrong position because in that position he's needed to defend as well as attack. He seems to have the attacking stuff down (when he's allowed to go forward) but his defending is atrocious. He's lost us points because of it.

Rafa's not the one misplacing the passes, but he's continually playing Lucas in a position where his failings are highlighted. You wouldn't play Torres on the left wing or Alonso up front- 2 world class players who'd be shit in those positions. OF cuorse, this is an extreme example- but it's just being used to emphasise my point. That Lucas' abilities don't lend himself to a holding role.

I'm not sure about that Baz. I genuinely think Lucas can play in a middle 2 but he just isnt ready to be the main passer in a middle 2.

Unlike Gerrard when he was 22, Lucas doesnt have the arrogance to try and take over a game when the team needs a spark.
Unlike Alonso, he doesnt have the ability to be the engine when the team is struggling to play.

So it just means that for the time being, he will only thrive when Xabi is playing next to him...especially against good teams.
Again, if we had genius in wide areas, we could deal with not having Xabi and Lucas would look like a genius. The sad thing is that our deficiencies in other areas are making Lucas look bad and too many tunnel visioned folks are piling all of the blame on the poor fella.

Put Lucas in that Man United team next to Carrick or Scholes and he would look like a champion.

If he can't be the main passer in the middle 2, then what is he offering? He sure as hell isn't going to be the main sweeper in front of the defence. Maybe with Xabi he'd do well there, but not when we're up against teams with strong midfields and pacy players. Lucas and Masch isn't a good partnership, but it was necessary yesterday because Xabi and Stevie were out. Fair enough. I actually thought Lucas' forward passing was decent at the start, but I want to see him do it further up the pitch.

The reasons I think he's not a holding midfielder is because he isn't able to control a match like Gerrard and Xabi can do, and he's not a sweeper like Masch is. Instead, in the deeper CM position he just gets drowned out by the players around him battling with him- as said already, he's not even an average defender.

He needs to play attacking midfield in my opinion. Especially in a 4-2-3-1.

I'm not Lucas' biggest fan- never have been. But I do know he has the talent because you can see it. His passing style in attacking areas and vision are great- and I think would be best served in a more attacking position. Not a holding midfield one.

[Hank Scorpio]

Carragher with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine.
Skrtel with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine
Kuyt with 9 technically outstanding outfield players? Fine.

... 3 of them all together, along with the likes of Arby and Masch, who are fairly neat technically, but not exactly Xavi and Iniesta and suddenly you've got 3-5 (depending on how you want to view it) who aren't particularly comfortable in receiving the ball under any sort of pressure... which adds up to about half of your out field players.

This is the problem; too many players, in the 1st team, who are not good enough in possession or, as I see it sometimes, not even trying to be good enough.  The likes of Carragher and Arbeloa far too often delay a pass.  Kuyt may make a yards space for himself, with some clever movement, but these two will delay the pass or just not play it at all and end up going backwards or taking the safe option.  Kuyt is more Madonna than Maradona but tell me wtf is the point of him making that extra yard if his team mates are not going to trust him.  The fluidity of the move dissipates.  Kuyt is just an example, it happens to other players too, all over the field.  There is hardly any trust in possession.

JL makes the point about technically adept players and to be fair we have seen many of those come and go over the past few seasons.  Morientes, Bellamy, Crouch, Keane are all, standalone, technically good players with an assured touch.  They were not able to conform to the system but I'd like to know just how much the system was willing to conform to them.  Of course, no system should purely conform to the players, but there is a balance to be found.

Mascherano is an interesting example.  Before he joined us I would have described him as a player with good technique.  He has seemingly 'lost' technique during the course of his time with us.  I think Riise also went downhill, despite not being technically good, he was always decent but, when he left us, he was technically awful.

A pass and move player like Lucas stands out like a sore thumb in our side.  His first time passes are useless and all his bad points are highlighted when he plays.  I think he gets such a rough ride purely because he tries to play football.

I don't know, I am just generally bitching and of course this comes back to the manager.  Benítez has to take some of the criticism for the poor style of football we play (at times).  I think our system demands so much from the players.  It really does 'zap' them and leaves them either unwilling or makes it impossible to express themselves.  We haven't got the right balance.

I think the system will eventually have to give a little.  We talk about the Maxi's and Simao's of this world but who is to say that they will not go down the same route as Morientes did?  Trust the players and allow them to trust themselves.  On that note, trust the manager also.  Sort this off the pitch shit out as soon as.  It is a hinderance, I don't care what people say.  Let's not throw away 5 years of progress.

[royhendo]

To change the subject... (hopefully)

CRISIS AT BARCA!!!

Anyone see it? I haven't seen it yet but I have it on tape...

(Interesting to see the comments on Lafita by the way. I missed that game too... )

[Hank Scorpio]

To change the subject... (hopefully)

CRISIS AT BARCA!!!

Anyone see it? I haven't seen it yet but I have it on tape...

(Interesting to see the comments on Lafita by the way. I missed that game too... )

Roy,

Do you live in the 1980's?  DVD son, no need for VHS anymore!  I won't mention Blu-Ray as it might scare you. 

I saw the Barcelona match btw.  Their weaknesses were highlighted.  Also they got far too involved in the arguments with the ref etc.  They lost focus.

[Juan Loco]

To change the subject... (hopefully)

CRISIS AT BARCA!!!

Anyone see it? I haven't seen it yet but I have it on tape...

(Interesting to see the comments on Lafita by the way. I missed that game too... )

Is it too soon to be all smug and point out that they aren't the best team ever?

Anyways, I'm sticking to my belief that they wont win the Champions League this year. No real logic behind it but I think it will be Bayern or Inter Milan for some reason. Someone from slightly left-field.

... Then again, I think Inter Milan will do well every year and Zlatan decides the lights on the big stage are just a little too bright...

[Mimi]

He did exactly the right thing because Rafa will have (rightly) told him to stay in the middle and use his passing from there to support the attack.

--- I don't think so. If you are worried about the center defensively then you leave Mascherano on and tell him to stay put because he can tackle. You don't leave a player in the center who does nothing but stand there. Carra and Skrtel were looking so desperate for someone to come to them to help them take the ball out. Lucas stood still at the crucial time in the game. It wasn't like City were ripping through the center at that point. At one point, one of their guys--- I want to say de Jong (but probably not him) ran past Lucas, and only after did he pass did Lucas turn and chase.

Look at the Guardian chalkboard for Lucas's passes for that game. Atrocious. Arbeloa and Carragher were the main recipients and hardly any to the left side of the field or further up the pitch.

But he's no Xabi. Not even half way there yet.

He wasn't expected to be Xabi. Just to be Lucas.

He's playing in the wrong position because in that position he's needed to defend as well as attack.

--- He is a central midfielder and sometimes they are expected to do both.

You wouldn't play Torres on the left wing or Alonso up front- 2 world class players who'd be shit in those positions. OF cuorse, this is an extreme example- but it's just being used to emphasise my point. That Lucas' abilities don't lend himself to a holding role.

You are right, the examples don't do justice. Because it's not out of the way to expect your CM to pass the ball forward and help out with the defense. It's not like Lucas has never done this before. If he ended up playing the holding role, it was down to his own doing and unwillingness to play the ball forward. Mascherano picked up the slack for two men by actually contributing something to the attack and having to run back and help out defensively. Masche has said he is comfortable with playing behind a more attacking midfielder--- he prefers Xabi to play further up than him--- but clearly in this game we needed to move the ball up, Lucas wasn't doing it, so Masche had to.

Sorry Baz, I don't know why you're going on about him being a holding midfielder in the Man City game. I never got the impression he was ever expected to be one.

[Degs]

To change the subject... (hopefully)

CRISIS AT BARCA!!!

Anyone see it? I haven't seen it yet but I have it on tape...

(Interesting to see the comments on Lafita by the way. I missed that game too... )

I watched it.
Bad ref cost them.

I still think we'll win the Champions League

[Yorkykopite]

I don't know, I am just generally bitching

Sorry to isolate this one post mate, but it seems to me typical of many which are starting to appear on RAWK - including this thread.

I mean that's quite an indictment you've made there. Gently put, non-accusatory, temperate in tone etc. But, still, actually one hell of an indictment. If the manager takes these skillful players and turns them into cautious underperforming footballers then there's something seriously wrong with the manager, right? Or at least his system? If it's the system then the obvious next question is - is the manager wedded to it?

[Hank Scorpio]

Sorry to isolate this one post mate, but it seems to me typical of many which are starting to appear on RAWK - including this thread.

I mean that's quite an indictment you've made there. Gently put, non-accusatory, temperate in tone etc. But, still, actually one hell of an indictment. If the manager takes these skillful players and turns them into cautious underperforming footballers then there's something seriously wrong with the manager, right? Or at least his system? If it's the system then the obvious next question is - is the manager wedded to it?

Like many others I have been waiting for Benitez to 'open up'.

His Valencia side, despite being labelled the Crushing Machine, were still able to play football, they were just efficient about it. 

I am more convinced than ever right now that he will have to 'open up' a little to fully succeed here.  He is an intelligent man and I am sure he knows this.  He could argue that his progress has been badly stunted due to missed transfer targets and this shit with the owners.  Who would disagree with him?  Not me.

We will see.  There may come a time when we will look at Benitez and think that it will never happen.  For some that time has already come but not for me, not by a long shot.

[royhendo]

Sorry to isolate this one post mate, but it seems to me typical of many which are starting to appear on RAWK - including this thread.

I mean that's quite an indictment you've made there. Gently put, non-accusatory, temperate in tone etc. But, still, actually one hell of an indictment. If the manager takes these skillful players and turns them into cautious underperforming footballers then there's something seriously wrong with the manager, right? Or at least his system? If it's the system then the obvious next question is - is the manager wedded to it?

C'mon then - spit it out!

[Yorkykopite]

C'mon then - spit it out!

K'inell Roy. You're like those folks in Stoke (was it?) goading the poor depressed fella to jump off the tall building.

Nah, I'm hoping for Hank's scenario to play out. I see Rafa on the banners in the Kop and I still love it. He has to succeed here.

But in true schizoid style I also know that there's another scenario to Hank's ie Rafa convinces himself that a better understanding of zonal marking will stop us conceding a late goal in the next Derby or that in games like Hull City at home we should be much tighter, less cavalier than we were and that it's important not to 'lose control' of the game like we did there for half an hour.

In other words we might see a more diciplined, less adventurous team next year.

[-Sad Fuck-]

Is it too soon to be all smug and point out that they aren't the best team ever?

Don't even know why people are calling it that, it's not even the best Barcelona team ever. They've got the most prolific striker in Europe, as well as Messi and Alves on the right. Xavi's nothing compared to how he was playing a couple of years ago, Keita does nothing for me, nor does the rest of their defence. They're fundamentally a Spanish Man Yoo, they have three superstars, and pave the cracks with fucking ridiculously overrated goalies.

The Barcelona team of three years ago, the team that won 3-0 at the Bernabeu, with Deco, Ronaldinho in his hayday, Thuram just about peaking, with Marquez playing as arguably one of the best defending players in the world (Dunno what's happened to him now).

Yeah, I don't like Barcelona much.

Inter won't win the UCL either, Juventuuusssss. Del Piero and Momo all the wayyyyyyyyyy

[Juan Loco]

K'inell Roy. You're like those folks in Stoke (was it?) goading the poor depressed fella to jump off the tall building.

I think it was Derby. .. Don't think he would have needed any goading if it was in Stoke.

[Degs]

Don't even know why people are calling it that, it's not even the best Barcelona team ever. They've got the most prolific striker in Europe, as well as Messi and Alves on the right. Xavi's nothing compared to how he was playing a couple of years ago, Keita does nothing for me, nor does the rest of their defence. They're fundamentally a Spanish Man Yoo, they have three superstars, and pave the cracks with fucking ridiculously overrated goalies.

The Barcelona team of three years ago, the team that won 3-0 at the Bernabeu, with Deco, Ronaldinho in his hayday, Thuram just about peaking, with Marquez playing as arguably one of the best defending players in the world (Dunno what's happened to him now).

Yeah, I don't like Barcelona much.

Inter won't win the UCL either, Juventuuusssss. Del Piero and Momo all the wayyyyyyyyyy

Before this "blip" the only other teams that matched them for goals scored were Ajax in the 70's and the Torino team that died in a plane crash.

They are the fastest team to reach 50 points in Spain and the football they play pisses all over that of 3 years ago.

I don't think they'll win the champions league but only one team can.

[BazC]

--- I don't think so. If you are worried about the center defensively then you leave Mascherano on and tell him to stay put because he can tackle. You don't leave a player in the center who does nothing but stand there. Carra and Skrtel were looking so desperate for someone to come to them to help them take the ball out. Lucas stood still at the crucial time in the game. It wasn't like City were ripping through the center at that point. At one point, one of their guys--- I want to say de Jong (but probably not him) ran past Lucas, and only after did he pass did Lucas turn and chase.

Nope. It was a perfectly fine move by Rafa in the circumstances- we needed attacking threat, and Lucas was a bigger one than Masch. But it still meant Lucas had to sit back to anchor midfield- because there was simply no one else to step in if he went walkabout. He would have been expected to play passes from that position, but he missed every one of the ones he tried and that wasn't good enough. Lucas isn't the player to anchor midfield- I would have kept Masch on- but I can see why Rafa did it. It just didn't work (I think it would have worked if we had Alonso, hence the 'he's no Alonso' comment).

Look at the Guardian chalkboard for Lucas's passes for that game. Atrocious. Arbeloa and Carragher were the main recipients and hardly any to the left side of the field or further up the pitch.

He wasn't expected to be Xabi. Just to be Lucas.

--- He is a central midfielder and sometimes they are expected to do both.

You are right, the examples don't do justice. Because it's not out of the way to expect your CM to pass the ball forward and help out with the defense. It's not like Lucas has never done this before. If he ended up playing the holding role, it was down to his own doing and unwillingness to play the ball forward. Mascherano picked up the slack for two men by actually contributing something to the attack and having to run back and help out defensively. Masche has said he is comfortable with playing behind a more attacking midfielder--- he prefers Xabi to play further up than him--- but clearly in this game we needed to move the ball up, Lucas wasn't doing it, so Masche had to.

Sorry Baz, I don't know why you're going on about him being a holding midfielder in the Man City game. I never got the impression he was ever expected to be one.

Haven't seen the chalkboards, but Lucas did play some decent forward passes in the first half. He just stopped as the game went on, and by the end those lateral passes had turned to giving the ball away.

I do think Rafa expects his 2 CMs in the 4-2-3-1 to hold. I've seen all 4 of them play there and they rarely attack freely. Even Gerrard holds and is conservative when he plays. It's at odds with what Rafa's said- that one of those 2 should be predominantly attack minded, but I just don't see it. I do think it's a case of them being held back by Rafa rather than refusing to go forward. Maybe Rafa wants them to go forward, but to make that decision carefully and at the right time. That could just be confusing and goes back to the posts I made about the 'tactical burden' Rafa imposes and how it could be that ball and chain that stops the flow of creativity. That's why I've been 'going on' about him being the holding midfielder. Like I said, it was needs must against City- our only 2 CMs were Masch and Lucas, but it was still a game where he's played there and not done that great.

I don't think he's being best used in that position- just as Gerrard wouldn't be best used in that position (although with Gerrard, he can actually play there- he's just better in the more attacking role, with Lucas, he doesn't play there well, but when he does go forward he's always a threat).

[Degs]

Nope. It was a perfectly fine move by Rafa in the circumstances- we needed attacking threat, and Lucas was a bigger one than Masch.

A greater attacking threat.

Do you know how many shots Lucas had in the entire 90 minutes.
Not for the first time it was the grand total of fuck combined with all, that's right: 0

You know how many passes of his made it into the box?
Unsurprisingly: 0

You have to feel for Mascherano, he tries his hardest, especially when we go down, to counter his natural game and burst forward, playing longer passes than usual successfully out to the wings, and having shots at goal and yet his reward is to be taken off in favour of the lad that has done nothing attacking wise all match.

The Lucas mob will make arguments that Torres was going mental over a formation change, or something of that ilk, like the rest of us he was dumbfounded to see one of the few players playing with heart (not for the first time) taken off.

After Mascherano was taken off Lucas played 1 pass in the opposiotion half, from the centre circle to 5 yards out from the centre circle, again contributing no shots.

You know why Lucas is considered the more attacking option, the player likely to do something.
Rafa likes this:

[img width= height=]http://www.worldpassports.org/americas/pages/images/BRASIL.jpg[/img]

If his name was Luke Leaver he'd be on loan to Brighton or flogged off by now.

[BazC]

Well your talking with hindsight. Like I said, it made sense at the time- supposedly Lucas is a better attacking player than Masch. I'm not saying I agreed with Rafa's thinking (in fact, I said the complete opposite- I'd have kept Masch on and taken Lucas off to bring on another attacker), just tried to explain it. To me, it's not far fetched that he did that.

Again- I've never been Lucas' biggest fan, but I do think he has the quality. For a number of reasons, that quality isn't expressing itself as much as it needs to be though.

I also said that Lucas was shite after Masch went off- he made a few passes (one or two were maybe a bit ambitious- but he still could have made them) that he needed to make, weren't difficult, but he gave it away anyway. I don't think it was a substitution that worked for Rafa (also, Babel did fuck all when he came on anyway) but as I said- all I'm doing is trying to explain why he did it. Rafa may think it was the wrong move now as well, but that's after seeing how Lucas played on his own in CM when Masch went off.

Another thing- what the hell's happened with Agger?

[Degs]

It's a shame Aurelio wasn't played instead.
And if you HAVE to pair Masch and Lucas then the lack of penetration DEMANDS that Agger plays as he will provide some forward drive from the back.

[Franck Le Poof]

You know why Lucas is considered the more attacking option, the player likely to do something.
Rafa likes this:

[img width= height=]http://www.worldpassports.org/americas/pages/images/BRASIL.jpg[/img]

If his name was Luke Leaver he'd be on loan to Brighton or flogged off by now.

I hope that's a joke.

[Degs]

I hope that's a joke.

Nope, ever since his poor performance at Fulham the only reasoning Rafa has given for him playing is he is from Bra Sil.

I'm not afraid to say it, if we hadn't spent 6 million on him and he hadn't come from Brazil he'd be nowhere near the side.

[Franck Le Poof]

Nope, ever since his poor performance at Fulham the only reasoning Rafa has given for him playing is he is from Bra Sil.

I'm not afraid to say it, if we hadn't spent 6 million on him and he hadn't come from Brazil he'd be nowhere near the side.

Sorry but I'm afraid that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on- perhaps Rafa's basing it on his performances in Brazil, but I'm not having for one second its only because he's from Brazil.
We spent 6 million on him because Rafa saw quality in his performances in Brazil, not because he was playing there.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you here.