Author Topic: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC  (Read 42052 times)

Offline Lfsea

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RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« on: August 18, 2012, 06:09:02 pm »
My caveat is that I watched all of the first half and bits of the second (purely coincidence, I promise).


To look at the final result in exclusion is to see crushing disappointment, but I can't help but feel it was far less of a disappointment than the scoreline might - in the first instance, suggest.


What struck me was a clear intention by the team, certainly in the first half, to manifest Rodgers' vision into something tangible. After some of the turgid, dysfunctional play we've experienced especially post-Rafa, Rodgers' attempts are admirable even if they're not immediately successful.


I thought Joe Allen looked excellent on a day where superlatives were at a premium (that is for Liverpool, not West Brom).


Goals for opposition sides rarely come at a good time, and Zoltan Gera's wondergoal was a cruel blow just before half time. It was a suckerpunch we never really recovered from. And as Daniel Agger knocked James Morrison to the ground the game's malaise felt terminal.


It has to be a case of onwards and upwards from this point. We fans must buy into Rodgers' ethos and accept that - with 90% of the squad used to playing a different way - it might just take longer than 90 minutes for it all to fall into place.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 07:35:14 am by royhendo »

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 07:18:37 pm »
Hugely disappointing result, shows that there is work to do. I thought first half we played well, I was very impressed by Joe Allen and how he moved the ball. Unfortunately we didn't put the ball in the net when we were on top. If you fail to score when you are in charge you are only a great strike away from going behind, which is what happened.


I'm not sure Luis Suarez is the man to play the centre of the three man attack, for me he's just not clinical enough for that role. I think him and Borini wide of a striker would work well, possibly Carroll or a new signing?


Offline Corkboy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 08:42:59 pm »
I'm not much good at reviewing games after doing Match Comms (especially with a dodgy stream), I usually like to watch the match again with a ff button before attempting anything. This time I'm not going to put myself through it.

First half, decent looking, Gerrard trying a bit too hard and we didn't take our chances, such as they were.

Second half, fucking horror show, half the team to blame and a Kewellesque re- and disappearance for Joe Cole. Welcome to the Eee Pee Ell.

First games of the season are odd and debuts can be deceiving. I'm tempted to say let's never speak of it again but in fact it can serve as a rather useful barometer. For the rest of the season, our minimum is anything better than today.

In fact, Messrs les Debutants, Rodgers and team, Borini, Allen and all for whom this was a league start for the club, have a mulligan. Not that Allen needs one. Gerrard, Agger, Skrtel, Downing, you guys too. Fresh start and all that. Except Joe Cole. Not you, Joe. I have post modern ironic cult status waiting for you.

Oh, and I don't like how the commentators keep mentioning how Rodgers is so very well respected by Mourinho, bestowed with his imprimatur, bosom buds, dare I say it, protégé. I don't want our manager to be associated with people of that ilk.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 10:25:04 pm »
The minute that penalty came and Agger was sent off, the game was a bogey. Chasing 1-0 we would have still mullered them with 11 men I reckon. First hakf was honestly a joy as far as I'm concerned. Play Gerrard where Downing was and Henderson in his stead in the middle, Enrique left and Johnson right, and that's some side.

Nothing we could have done about Gera's goal, Agger flogged the pen - silly boy, and Skrtel had a brainfart. The Lukaku goal was a bit of a joke. But equally we could have been 3-0 up at half time.

Patience will pay off - there are signs of some lovely football there when it settles. The best of Dalglish's sides with structure in the middle. Disappointing result, but green shoots.

Suarez is gonna get nowt all season.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 10:36:44 pm »
This place is so funny. Fuck only knows why, but I just sat here reading a few pages. Apart from the usual suspects, is there anybody in this thread that's over 3 years old and has the slightest understanding of football?

We were playing really well. We could have easily been a couple of goals up. We were knocking the ball about with confidence, pressing it when we didn't have it and players were making good runs off the ball. A stunning goal gets scored against us. It could have ended up in Wolverhampton, but it went into the net and, up to that point, that was the only way they were ever going to score against us.

Agger brushes some shite off the lad's shirt for him. Phil fucking fat arse Dowd makes out he's just decapitated the lad. But when that dirty bastard, Oulsen, near knocked Luis's head off in the first half, Dowd somehow misses it. Weird how he saw Skrtel kicking a lad that was running away from goal, when all he done was not realise the fella was there, so went for the ball and ended up kicking the leg that appeared.

Of course the team went to fuck after that. They'd just lost a player for fuck all, survived the pen, got hope and then got slapped in the kipper by that fat bastard. Of course, heads dropped for a moment. But from then on it was simple for West Brom. They have some speedsters in that team. All they had to do was sit back and wait for the chance to spring them, which they did.

The most worrying goal was the third. I hope the players had lost all heart by then, because if they switch off like that when the ball is in our box... well, that's worrying, indeed. In fact, that was the one real worry I have from today. When we went to ten men down, we should have took a few minutes to settle. We should have kept the ball and done the simple things until we got some sort of rythym back. Same at 2 nil down. We seemed to carry on regardless instead of getting our sea legs back. The one good thing I can say about that... it's technical stuff and I have the faith that Rogers can fix technicalities. I just don't know if you dummy spitting knobheads are going to give him the time to try.

Fucking calm down. It's the first game of the season. It's the manager's first game. We had a couple of debutants. It takes fucking time. Give him some you knee jerking gobshites.

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 11:14:57 pm »
Roy, you say you'd like to see Gerrard wide right, so I'm presuming you don't mind Suarez being the centre of the three. Personally I'd like to see him in one of the wider areas, do you not think that'd suit both him as an individual and the team as a whole better?

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 01:02:00 am »
We looked a bit nervous in the first few minutes and then started to look good until they scored that cracker near the death of the first half.
After Agger's (clumsy in my opinion) challenge we just seem to cave in and was obviously made worse after the dubious decision against Skrtel.
How can a player who is attempting a clearance with his back to Shane Long concede a penalty?
I don't want to use Phil Dowd's decisions as an excuse but I reckon Olsson's challenge or assault on Borini in the first half was far worse.

All this aside, I didn't like the fact that after they scored the second penalty we just seemed to give up.

The biggest thing though is like last season, we need to take our chances and learn to hit the onion bag..
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 01:03:40 am by Terry De Niro »

Offline Col

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 04:52:03 am »
We're not the first team to implode after a red card, and we won't be the last.

The first half was like watching a good performance last season - all fur coat and no knickers. Until Suarez starts scoring some goals, he'll forever be the player who never quite made it into the top bracket and fulfilled his potential. His finishing is, for someone of his calibre, a liability. What annoyed me today was that the histrionics are back (see the yellow card, which was unwarranted) - we already know that refs won't give him anything, and the more he plays up to his 'whingeing foreigner' tag, the more it's going to hurt the team.

Jonas Olssen is probably the biggest yard dog in the league, and has been for about 2 years - how he gets away with continually manhandling players and coming through the back of them is beyond me - but the refs don't bother to give anything against him because nobody knows who the hell he is. It's easy to book Suarez for complaining about being offside, and it's also easy to not book the guy who continually clatters him from behind. The sooner Suarez realises that every single person outside of Liverpool hates him - completely hates him - then he'll do better.

As for the rest of the game, the subs really confused me. Why Carragher is on the bench ahead of Coates is completely beyond me. I'm a big Carragher fan, but over the last two years his decline has been similar to that of Macauley Culkin. He's starting to look like a spitting image puppet out there. I remember a couple of years ago, when he got torn to shreds in the second half of a game by Zavon Hines... I'm not sure if Hines has played a game of professional football since.

I'm completely in the mindset that Carragher should be politely asked to retire, or at least solely used as a face around the dressing room. There's not a chance in hell that for a team with 10 men, against someone as strong and mobile as Lukaku, he was ever going to have a chance to compete. It's almost unfair on the lad to put him in that position - the time has come to give Coates some minutes and see what he's capable of.

As for Joe Cole, well... my feelings about that fat, lazy, soft, unfit, chain-smoking, wage-stealing former childhood prodigy have been well documented before, but let me just say this - I'd be very, very surprised if his injury wasn't something he could've played on through had he had the bottle. I'm thinking Luis Garcia in the derby here, not Harry Kewell in any given competetive appearance.


We actually looked pretty good in the first half, aside from being horrible in front of goal. Gera's strike was a corker, but you have to ask why it wasn't blocked. We were in the same position early on in the second half, and three players charged it down. When Gera struck his, only Johnson tried to get there. Borini stood and watched.

In the second half, nobody played well. The belief that should've come with a saved penalty (probably a bit soft, to be honest), even after a red card, should've been enough to carry us through to get a point.

It all went to pot, however, when Phil Fucking Dowd gave a penalty against Skrtel for dribbling in his own box. A fucking ludicrous decision.

After that, it was game over - heads went down, we imploded, and West Brom took the easy option - get Lukaku to stand next to Carragher and roll off him to get in behind. We made Lukaku look like the player he was supposed to be in Belgium, not an eighteen million pound kid who was kept out of the Chelsea team by Daniel Sturridge.

At least Rodgers now knows the true size of the task - some of these players look good in the easy games, but don't have the heart for a scrap.

Going into Arsenal and City without Agger will be tough - we may as well play Coates there and see if he's cut out for this league or not. Some of these players have been shown up today - the captain included - and we need a massive response in the next four games.

Losing to West Brom isn't the end of the world, but the way the players' heads drop at the first sign of adversity is a worry. That, above all else, needs to be fixed.
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Offline farawayred

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Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 05:39:41 am »
I may be out of line starting this thread since I haven't seen the game, but I find myself in a remote village in Afrika where the local cinema is 19 inch TV and a bunch of wood benches, and there is no Sky or whatever channel shows the games. I can't wait to learn about the game and RAWK is my only source, but I can't stand the bile in the game thread. Anyone with analyses, reviews? Please!
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Offline Redknobprob

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 06:48:14 am »
Need a bit of context here.  Most teams, apart from exceptional ones, lose the plot when you're 1-nil down and compounded by a sending off, and a penalty.  We had a few chances to score and did play well enough for a visiting team in the first half.  Gera scored a beauty and it's hard to come back when you're playing away against a counter-attacking team.  There were some dodgy refereeing decisions but the first penalty was hard not to award.  Shane Long's penalty was more of a pass to Pepe but we lost all hope and team structure once the second penalty went in.  A bad day at the office for Rodgers and it's hard not to feel sorry for him.  He has brought in handy players.  Joe Allen looks the deal.  A tidy player with a good work-rate, and an improvement on Spearing and Adam.  Borini should be given time to settle into Premiership pace again.  And Rodgers has all the right ideas on paper.  It's only one match, albeit with a tough run to follow, but we will need to be patient and knee-jerk reactions to the first league match of the season will not help anyone. 

Offline Advil

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 07:02:23 am »
There are some players who should be ashamed. If they could not be up for a game as important as the first league game, then they should never be LFC players.

Back to the game, Downing was non existence. Will drop Downing for Assaidi or Raheem for the next match.
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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 07:05:01 am »
It's woefully apparent that when our star performers don't step up we don't step up.
Suarez continues to have issues finishing and gerrard and Skrtel had bad days. When this happened no one stepped up.
If we are going to challenge for top four, which seems like a big if for this season, then we need a full team of people who can have a great day. Downing isn't one of them, Borini is still gelling in and so is yet to be seen, Lucas does not provide much offensive threat. We have major seven offensive positions in my opinion, the three forwards, gerrard and Allen, and the two fullbacks. Today only Allen and Johnson played well, if at least four of our seven aren't playing good games we won't win. That's how I see it.
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Offline Andichrist

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 07:06:44 am »
Need a bit of context here.  Most teams, apart from exceptional ones, lose the plot when you're 1-nil down and compounded by a sending off, and a penalty.  We had a few chances to score and did play well enough for a visiting team in the first half.  Gera scored a beauty and it's hard to come back when you're playing away against a counter-attacking team.  There were some dodgy refereeing decisions but the first penalty was hard not to award.  Shane Long's penalty was more of a pass to Pepe but we lost all hope and team structure once the second penalty went in.  A bad day at the office for Rodgers and it's hard not to feel sorry for him.  He has brought in handy players.  Joe Allen looks the deal.  A tidy player with a good work-rate, and an improvement on Spearing and Adam.  Borini should be given time to settle into Premiership pace again.  And Rodgers has all the right ideas on paper.  It's only one match, albeit with a tough run to follow, but we will need to be patient and knee-jerk reactions to the first league match of the season will not help anyone.

That's a very good description. I would add a couple of worries: That we weren't much better with our chances than last year; and that there was a tendency towards abandoning the concept after we went behind, but before the various catastrophes, and seek Suarez too quickly.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 07:10:09 am »
Such a shame we couldn't get off to a good start yesterday as it makes Brendans job so much harder. These next few weeks are goin to be realy testing for us as a club I fear, especially when you look at the next lot of games coming up. God help us if we lose our next 3 or 4 games in a row.

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 07:15:08 am »
In the first-half, we were marginally the better side. For a period in the first-half, we looked pretty good, and you could see Rodgers' being played out. At the end of that period, if I'm remembering right, Suarez missed an open-goal with his head. One of those moments where you hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

Alas, Zoltan fucking Gera smacks a Yeboah-esque volley into the goal in front of our away end, their nobhead fans to the right go mental, AND it was on the stroke of half-time.

We came back out and imposed ourselves for a few minutes, then Gerrard and Kelly fucked up and Agger bundled their lad over. Soft, but that fat bastard was always going to give them it.

A red card? He didn't send that Manc helmet off against Sunderland, opening game last year, for a more blatant one. Fat c*nt.

Pepe saved it, but we lost the plot. What I remember it as is we launched the ball up field towards our away end, fuck all happened for a minute or two and then they got another penalty.

2-0, and that was that. Lucas was taken off so we were overrun, and Carragher was out-paced, and then bounced off Lukaku, only for Long to do a Suarez and miss a sitter.

The third was a disgrace. Simple high ball not dealt with across the 6-yard line.

Fuck all went for us yesterday. That ref is a fat fucking helmet.

Looking at ourselves, Kelly is not able enough to play this system as a full-back. Exposed as a centre-half yesterday for all to see. Gerrard looks unfit or unable to me, he looked lost.

As an aside, the lads as a whole need to realise not all decisions will go our way. That penalty save could have salvaged a point for us yesterday. If the half-time break hadn't have been right after the goal, I suspect the players would have reverted to type rather than follow the managers instructions.

A wonder-goal, a pen and a third when they'd lost their heads. Ironic, as the first-half was not awful. If Luis Garcia had that headed chance instead of Luis Suarez, it's 1-0 and it's a different game.
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 07:15:51 am »
It's woefully apparent that when our star performers don't step up we don't step up.
Suarez continues to have issues finishing and gerrard and Skrtel had bad days. When this happened no one stepped up.
If we are going to challenge for top four, which seems like a big if for this season, then we need a full team of people who can have a great day. Downing isn't one of them, Borini is still gelling in and so is yet to be seen, Lucas does not provide much offensive threat. We have major seven offensive positions in my opinion, the three forwards, gerrard and Allen, and the two fullbacks. Today only Allen and Johnson played well, if at least four of our seven aren't playing good games we won't win. That's how I see it.


There is something very wrong with the mentality of the squad. Seems as though Gerrard has lost the ability of grabbing the team by the scruff of the neck and dragging them through the game. If he has a stinker and goes hiding there is nobody else to drag us through. This team lacks serious character.

Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 07:24:58 am »
Will start off with the personnel.

Gerrard was the most disappointing. He always loves to force the issue but in such a system we need to be patient. The amount of times he tried playing improbable one twos and we ended up being exposed down the flanks was unpardonable. Suarez's finishing leaves a lot to desire, Borni looked nervous and dare I say the occasion got to him. Carragher is well past it and needs to be phased out. I'd have loved for Coates to come on and we'd rather concede two more goals with Coates learning things the hard way than Carragher making bigger dents in the defense and team. Lucas looked rusty but functional, while Allen was the only bright spot. He knew exactly what he was doing and went about it methodically. He will be a big star but it is such a pity that a lot of our players are yet to reach his levels in terms of understanding Rodgers' system.

I thought we started the game brightly and were awfully unlucky to go behind right before the break. What a brilliant goal that was from Gera. Never a good thing, conceding minutes before half time. I was more interested to see how we came out of the tunnel for the second half and how we approached the game. Honestly, there are only two things that really concern me with regard to this team, and that must be addressed by Rodgers somehow. Not personnel, because I think he is doing a decent job with the money he's been given to get in technically sound players that fit into his system.

What really concerns me is how this team reacts when we go behind, when things go wrong. 'Mentality', like Rafa emphasised in every presser of his. Everyone's shoulders dropped once Agger got sent off, or dare I say after the first goal went in. Nobody was up for the challenge to get back in the game and try to force a goal and equalize, Allen and Reina apart. I honestly do not remember the last time we came back from a goal down to win a game in the league. That was the hallmark of Rafa's 2008-09 team. We always dug ourselves out of trouble and there were players that absolutely stepped up when the going wasn't great. I mean, on a day like yesterday when the manager had got everything spot on until we went a goal down, how do we hold him responsible if a bunch of highly-paid, experienced professionals do not know how to react to an adverse situation?

Second point of concern is that I am not sure how good the subs and reserves are if they are called on to fill the boots of the first team players in case of an injury or suspension. I'm already bricking it thinking of Carragher trying to tug Aguero's and Tevez's shirts. Coates is talented but I am still unsure. I am not at all certain Spearing, Adam and Henderson will adequately replace Lucas and Allen when they are unavailable. You look at other teams and see that their benches are not much better than us, but those players still seemed clued up and stepped up well. Brown, O'Shea, Fletcher, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Park all knew what their roles were in the team when they had to come in place of Vidic, Ferdinand, Nani, Valencia etc. When a second string Liverpool side takes the pitch, there is absolutely no cohesion, it lacks in ideas. We saw that in the second half against Leverkusen. Granted that was only a friendly, but the gulf was so apparent.

How Rodgers addresses these two issues will define how good he will be and how quickly he will take us upwards. I really hope he has identified these problems in the team, because it is no longer a first eleven, it is a squad game where everybody has to chip in equally. It is only one game into the season, so I am quite sure we can iron out the mistakes and have a very positive season. Because, honestly, after last season, we have nothing much to lose.

Offline Andichrist

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Re: Round table discussion: West Brom - Liverpool 3-0
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 07:50:04 am »
What really concerns me is how this team reacts when we go behind, when things go wrong. 'Mentality', like Rafa emphasised in every presser of his. Everyone's shoulders dropped once Agger got sent off, or dare I say after the first goal went in. Nobody was up for the challenge to get back in the game and try to force a goal and equalize, Allen and Reina apart. I honestly do not remember the last time we came back from a goal down to win a game in the league. That was the hallmark of Rafa's 2008-09 team. We always dug ourselves out of trouble and there were players that absolutely stepped up when the going wasn't great. I mean, on a day like yesterday when the manager had got everything spot on until we went a goal down, how do we hold him responsible if a bunch of highly-paid, experienced professionals do not know how to react to an adverse situation?

Mentality is part of that (the major part, I agree). But personel is also an issue. As I remember, Benayoun was very often the saviour in that 08-09 team, bringing that little bit of extra skill in small areas needed. We do seem to lack that in our 'front 3' players - Cole isn't gonna bring it, Downing isn't either, dunno Borini but it doesn't seem his game, so Suarez is really the only one (and who knows, maybe Assaidi can bring it too). And obviously the other thing needed is goalscoring ability, the ability to see and put away those half-chances that pressure will bring. Dirk brought that especially in 08-09, but unfortunately he lost a little bit of pace in his last couple of years with us. With all the talk of plan B's, I think these are the kinds of qualities we need to be able to bring into a goal-down-last-15-situation, rather than just physicality.

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 08:04:51 am »
The biggest problemis we are physically weak and carry too many tarts. It has been for seasons.  How many of our players can we say really put themselves about? Not many . How many when the going gets tough actually go missing ? Downing, Gerard Johnson etc just give up. It's one of the main reasons we hardly ever come from behind. We lack character and carry too many pansies.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:07:41 am by itsgunnabebarnes! »
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 08:06:05 am »
I agree with the overall idea that we were marginally the better side before the sending off.  In fact, even if Agger had just let him shoot and he had scored that chance, I think we would have ended up with a 2-2 draw.  We were nervy in the first half, but the first 5 minutes or so of the second we were actually very good.  Then they had the penalty, we had a man sent off, and everything after that was just horrible.

So, as I look at analysing the match as far as what it means going forward, I'm only going to look at the period before the sending off.  Even in that timeframe, there were a few things that worried me:

1. West Brom were pressurising us on the ball, successfully.  We still had the edge in possession, but it worried me to see them so successful when they went after our midfielders and attackers when they were on the ball.  A team that practises this so much should do better with movement and quick passes to get around the press when it comes and then find the open man.

2. This is partly down to Johnson being shifted over to the left, but both of our fullbacks were a liability yesterday.  It was only one of several concerning things about our defense, but neither of them contributed in attack and both were caught out of position in defense.  I'm hoping that this is something that will reduce when Enrique comes back in and Johnson moves over to his natural side, but it's still a sign that the new philosophy is not yet second nature (which is not that surprising).

3. Gerrard was actually very poor.  Now, I said that I wasn't going to analyse the period after the red card, but he was poor even before that.  He was particularly shocking afterwards and was one of the first to really drop his head and start making hopeless passes and giving the ball away, but even in the first half he was missing his normal dynamism.  I can't write it off as first game nerves or anything like that for such an experienced player, so I'm hoping it's just a bad game and now it's out of his system.  We really need our captain to lead by example and to occasionally pick us up and just drag us to a result, and yesterday didn't show even a glimmer of a possibility of that happening.

Overall, I'm holding my counsel.  We were always going to have a really bad game on one or two occasions this year, so this could just be a small sample size.  It's very, very unfortunate that it happened in this particular game, because with City, United, and Arsenal in 3 of the next 4 games, we could be miles off the pace by the time the season is 5 games old.  That would be a real problem for our confidence and clawing back the deficit is going to be a difficult road. 

Hopefully we can get through this run of games with, say, 5 or 6 points by the time we're 5 games in, and then try to keep the gap to fourth within 6 or 7 points by Christmas.  Maybe by then the system will start to settle and we can make a run at it.  It definitely didn't hurt us to see Spurs lose and Arsenal drop points yesterday as well.
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Offline MolbyLovesGravlax

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 08:07:06 am »
It was a game straight out of last season. Hectic start, settles down and we have the majority of the possession do some nice stuff but are toothless up front. They get a wonder goal. Looks like things may go back our way when ref spoils it and then we just fall apart with no sense of how to turn it around. The big players are below par and the rest do not step up.
Felt just like last year, and shows the problems won't be fixed by just having a new plan on how to play and a couple of new players. No matter what system you have, how well you pass or keep possession you need to be able to score, you need to not gift goals and you need to be able to have things go wrong and still manage to turn the game around.
We are not as good as we think we are, but we are better than our league positions the last few years but we ended up there because we can not deal with adversity very well. Until we find a way to change that, we are going to spend a lot of time in the middle of the table.
 
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Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 08:14:11 am »
The biggest problem and it's one of the reasons is we are physically weak and carry too many tarts. It has been for seasons.  How many of our players can we say really put themselves about? Not many . How many when the going gets tough actually go missing ? Downing, Gerard Johnson etc just give up. It's one of the main reasons we hardly ever come from behind. We lack character and carry too many pansies.

Yep. Massive problem for us. If you look at the characters we've lost ie. Hyypia, Alonso, Mascherano, kuyt and Bellamy and look what we've replaced them with, you can see where the problem lies. They weren't only great footballers, they where massive characters aswell. Real leaders. These days just end up sulking when things dont go our way and when the chips are down we lack the stomach for a fight.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 08:15:24 am »
I've had a fair whinge about the decisions (41% of our fouls were booked, compared to 9% across the rest of the league yesterday and 5% for WBA) and have been mistaken for "blaming the ref" (not sure how pointing out bad decisions is blaming the ref, but anyway)

What I want to know is, where can we go to learn the rules? Because plenty have said things like "clear pens", etc, when in my mind never muscling a player outside the box nor trying to kick a ball could ever be penalties. Where can I go to learn these rules so that I can at least accept having any slight chance we had despite our general poorness taken away from us?

Offline killer-heels

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 08:40:03 am »
Yep. Massive problem for us. If you look at the characters we've lost ie. Hyypia, Alonso, Mascherano, kuyt and Bellamy and look what we've replaced them with, you can see where the problem lies. They weren't only great footballers, they where massive characters aswell. Real leaders. These days just end up sulking when things dont go our way and when the chips are down we lack the stomach for a fight.

I have been critical of the character of this team but I think the lack of belief in our ability to score goals may be having an effect in our character.

In terms of the match let me say that I thought that both decisions were correct and even if they weren't in the spirit of the great Olympics I have promised myself not to throw abuse around at officials :).

I do think we played decent football in the first half but I don't share the same optimism as Roy as we played some good football last year but what is the point in playing great possession football without a killer touch, ability to score and a striker who will head over an easy chance? We had the same last season.

That for me is the problem. I think our lack of character is because our players, like us I guess, don't believe that they have the ability to score goals and get back into games and if you look at last season, they don't. We have a side where our full backs and centre halves are bigger goal threats than our midfielders and wingers. We only had 3 recognised goal scorers in that side yesterday and one of those misses a bunch of chances and the other looked out of position.

Until we are able to be clinical and have a set of forwards who can score, we will always be in trouble. What happens when we don't play good at all? We need to be able to score more goals because at the moment the only way it seems we can win games is to make sure we are so on top that we can create buckets of chances and hope one goes in.

Offline harleydanger

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 08:45:45 am »
When things don't go your way you have to rely on 3 things to get you through

1. The system

2. Leadership

3. Class

At the moment we're seriously lacking all 3.

Things will get better, but they're going to get worse first.
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Offline scouse29

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 08:46:12 am »
When your main striker has seven chanes and fails with thm all you will always end up in trouble. For me he plays better off a striker rather than being the main man. That was the case last season and I hope we learn from our mistakes.

The two penalties were clumsy but was there real intent? Agger shoud of known better but a quicker centre bck would of been goal side. As for skertel the players around him should of been screaming at him to shift the ball quicker. He went to pass the ball and in the blink of an eye he caught the player. Carra the great communicator?

Gerrard looking awful and lazy when he gave the ball away, will BR be bold enough to leave him out? One of kennys downfalls was not being able to spot when players were out of form last season and we paid the price.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 08:50:51 am »
From the bits and pieces I saw I can only draw this conclusion: at home to FC Gomel and Leverkusen we hassled the opposition pretty much the whole game - I believe this was due in part to the home support. At West Brom without the crowd behind them the players lost the plot slightly after going a man down. Hopefully after this defeat the players will now realise what they need to do if this situation arises in the future.  I can see us having a lot of joy at Anfield but may struggle away while the new system is implemented.

Learning curves are full of painful moments.  We grin and bear them as best we can. 

Would like to see Coates play alongside Skrtel against City, a better option I think than Carra. Assaidi on the bench to come on for the last half hour would be interesting too. As long as we're not three nil down at that point that is......
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Offline keyo

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 08:51:06 am »
1. Promising first half, joe allen was promising and a bit more, lucas a bit rusty but certainly they showed enough to expect they will provide a good platform this season
2. We did play much further up the pitch, showing that the playing plan is taking shape and getting through to the team
3. Going forward, take suarez out and we had nothing/very little. Borini and Downing did not contribute and Gerrard was predictable in that he was going through the middle and trying to link with Suarez and it became easy to read and block off.
4. Finishing continued to be poor, Suarez being main culprit.
5. First goal is a cracker, nothing we could do about it, but shows how important it is to make pressure and chances count, it is not bad luck or "one of thse things", these things happen all the time, deal with the things you control.
6. Both penalties were fouls (whether the first was outside the box is another matter) and Agger's is a sending off.  The first was worringly easy, we gave the ball away on the edge of their box and 2 passes had their LONE striker clean through on goal.  Very very poor chance to concede structurally.  The second was awful defending and awareness by Skrtel, and he needs a bollocking for it.  However, it was indicative of our sloppiness in the second half.
7. Extremely poor character shown by the team once we went 2 down.  As much as we are not the first team to go to pieces when going a man down, most good teams go down by over-committing, we went down cos our heads seemed to go down and we lost shape.
8. Clearly poor refereeing would not have helped, bookings for our players for very little, Olsson basically got away with 2 very clear yellow card minimum offences.
9. Poor day for the boss man in terms of substitutions in my opinion.  The bench was not a good one in terms of providing options other than Carroll, why no Sterling given his preseason, or pacheco?  And as for the subs made, I suspect leaving lucas on (fitness allowing) and withdrawing him would have been a better option than bringing on carragher and changing our shape so badly.  Lucas dropped deeper alongside skrtel, gerrard dropping deeper would have provided continuity.  Carroll would have been a better option than cole, in order to provide relief for suarez and occupied the centre halves more, as they were working suarez over at will at that point, without any impact from borini or downing.
10. Putting the plan into place will take time.  It will also take greater application than we showed yesterday. 
11. If we do not sign another striker, we need to use carroll, and take pressure off suarez (and borini).  Allowing suarez more latitude for making chances and moving in wider areas will not reduce his effectiveness, it will give the opposition more worries in more ares, with gerrard and carroll central, and suarez wide on one side, and borini coming in from the other side (he will get better).

Don't think it is the day to whinge, but it is a day to reflect on and learn from (something we failed to do last season too often)
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Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 08:55:44 am »
My take:

The speed of the game was a hell of a lot faster than preseason and that is what we really struggled with. West Brom pressed well not giving our defence any time. Unfortunately we were not well drilled enough to deal with that. While we have it down pat enough to knock about a 2nd rate team in the Europa Leauge, we've still got some way to go before it will be effective in the quicker Premier League.

Structurally what I immediately noticed was the lack of pace out wide and willingness to take players on. With Suarez, Borini & Downing we are a little one paced. In preseason we looked alright because Johnson & Enrique are so quick but with Johnson on his wrong side and Kelly at RB they weren't the attacking threat they have been in preseason.

You have to give it to West Brom. They approached the game brilliantly, rode there luck a bit but last season if teams did that we'd more often then not break. Good teams find a way out trouble when they are not getting the rub of the green. Unfortunately we are not a good team.......yet.

I take the following thoughts away from the game:
1. We need more pace on the wings: We need to be able to push back the defences
2. We need genuine Leftback cover: We can't be pulling Johnson away from RB, it's one of our biggest assets.
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Offline bepoq

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 08:55:54 am »
The front three, or perhaps four are indeed a worry. I'll come back to that though.

I think this game showed what a delicate balance this sort of system is. Playing such a high line is a tightwire act, if you get it wrong, you are entirely exposed. I've been in on a few analysis of this sort of thing but I can't remember where, and I apologise if I'm lifting other Rawkites ideas on this (I'm a bit jetlagged and can't keep what I've heard where or thought of myself straight at the moment). Anyway, it requires two (at least) very important things. Firstly you must respect possession to a very high degree, and we, particularly one Steven Gerrard, did not do this (Suarez wasn't great either). We were regularly left exposed by his trying ill-advised, over-ambitious passes that were intercepted because, secondly, if you lose the ball, particularly in that fashion, you must be very good at pressing as a team and putting the opposition's players under intense pressure such that even if they are eventually able to settle in possession, they either have to go backwards or they have to take a long time gaining control. Gerrard, with his flouncing off in primadonna fashion when he'd had a pass intercepted or one hadn't reached him, was also poor in this respect, though it wasn't just him, I suspect this is one of those very tricky and finely balanced teamwide things that will take some time to get right. Anyway, if you get both of these things wrong, and their midfielders are able to gain the ball suddenly with time to look up and pick their pass, your two centre backs are left entirely exposed—Skertl, slipping under pressure—Agger having to come so far across and back to cover that he fouls that man most in need of a stunt double, Long, and Carra (and I'm not defending him here, I think he's had it, about which I am very sad) versus Lukaku, which was just miserable. Hmmm... mebbe some of this comes from TAW, because I do now remember them saying that we're going to get tonked a few times while we figure this all out. Anyway, against a strong team with strong defensive midfielders (and theirs were excellent today) and a bit of pace up front, if you get these things wrong, you're really asking for trouble.

The corner business is something that I think must be considered separately from the vaunted Rogers system—at least I don't remember hearing anything about how he approaches them that was unusual (at all actually). I don't agree with this notion that Gera's goal was unstoppable. Of course it was once he hit it, and at the time I wrote it off as a "you can't legislate for that" sort of goal, but the same thing happened in the second half. Same corner, same looping header out to the same position to a lonely Albion player, who, fortunately, this time wasn't Gera, and I realised that here seems to be a fundamental flaw in the way we are defending them. Twice we won the ball in the air well against a tall team, but twice allowed it to fall just beyond the edge of our area toward the back post to an opposition player in acres of space with all the time in the world to strike it (for Gera's goal, Johnson went at him full tilt and got nowhere near a block). Zonal or man to man, this was a disaster.

As regards the forwards, I have to say that I was very disappointed in Downing. I've tried hard not to write him off, and hope he is able to step forward this year, but that was a shockingly weak display. By which I don't mean just bad, I really mean weak, as in without spine or muscles... a right wing jellyfish... without even a sting... sorry, gone off the rails there. But against a strong defence, all our lovely movement against Gomel, all of our sensible passing as against them and first half Leverkusen, disappeared, and we seemed to be playing with only two men moving together, and they were frequently marked out of it or, rather, easily covered. It wasn't bad in the first half, but it wasn't great either, and perhaps it only really works if all four are engaged. I also wonder if Stevie got his positioning quite right, though I can't put my finger on it.

Finally, a word about the ref. He was utterly consistent. I'm not at all sure that we'd have won had he not given them absolutely everything and nothing against, because we were looking much like last year, reasonably good without the ability to score, but he was absolutely abysmal. Borini decked (and no, he didn't stand his ground he moved against the flight of the ball and set his shoulder, which you're not actually allowed to do)... Olson tackling Suarez, etc, etc. I can't be bothered listing them again. I suspect we just have to come to terms with the fact that apart from the occasional cockup in our favour born of the utter ineptitude of the refs, the general game narrative that Premier League officials like to have in their minds before matches start tends not to run in our favour, and we simply will have to cope with it. And no, I'm reasonably positive things don't equal out across a season.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 09:10:10 am by bepoq »

Offline bruce64

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2012, 09:13:16 am »
I've read alot on this blog about " Character " , but is'nt "moneyball" idenitify character as well . From what i read on this pages i conclude that most people don't believe that  Liverpool is buying players the "moneyball" way . We are buying players that the coach likes or at least we hope he likes them and the ones he doesn't like ( Carroll ) he sell on . So how do we build team spirit or character when most of the players havn't been bought by the coach so they don't know whether they are REALLY wanted in the team or not . 

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2012, 09:14:05 am »
Obviously there was a lot giving you reason for some hope for good football in the future when watching the first half. I would prefer to see Gerrard on the right instead of Downing and Shelvey in the middle with Lucas and Allen but at the moment that´s for sure not our major problem.

It could work, but on the other hand this entire fragile idea of Rodgers could go downhill pretty fast from here when thinking of our upcoming fixtures only and I think Rodgers got this one very wrong, his approach being way too naive yesterday.

A good result from this game was pretty much a MUST considering the upcoming games. For that our set up was too shallow, not enough organisation in defending and the gaps in attack too big for a passing game and as much people wanna say the game could have been well different I wanna say that mistakes right before the first goal are the ones which will make it impossible to win ANY PL game of football. How could the forget about this player right outside of the box waiting for exactly this situation? It´s pretty basic defending there missing...

I wanna wait for the next couple of games and have a closer look at the system Rodgers is trying to implement here. At the moment it comes across a little naive, trying to play like Brasil at it´s best with only one Brasilian who has a hard time recovering from an injury....Just as our owners trying to get back to 4th with signings like Allen for 15m but that´s another story..

The talk of Rodgers during pre season was pretty impressive to listen to and it quite made an impression on me. But yesterday was not enough for PL football, neither the effort of some players, Gerrard, Downing, nor the quality of the tactical set up which should bring out the best of the players having around. Rodgers knows that, let´s see how he will react.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 09:17:05 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline L666KOP

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2012, 09:22:32 am »
The game for me was lost in the team selection, Johnson should have been left on the right, if Flanno is not available for the left I'd have had Downing there, shoved Gerrard up into Downings position, and brought either Henderson or Shelvey into the middle, Hendo is the more suited to the style but I feel Shelvey adds a bit more 'steel' even if he can be a tad reckless at times. Losing Enrique mean't a complete reshuffle, and that shouldn't be the case, if that's the way Brendan is going to cover him we desperately need another LB.
Brendan is going to have to work out how to instill a bit of confidence into the bunch as well, same as last season, we fell apart as soon as Agger was sent off, we didn't give ourselves time to regather, we have players and a supposed system that can retain possession, we should have used it.
Ironically the two best chances we created fell to a player that is woefully out of sorts in front of goal, whilst the player that would in all likleyhood have buried them sat on the bench seemingly a victim of the new system.....

We need to find the funds for a striker somehow, we were a striker short when we had Torres.
The whole side looked shaky when we were without the ball, West Brom had a number of chances in the first half, chances you'd expect the likes of Aguero and Balotelli etc to be burying. If the window closes without any more additions I think we can expect a long season. There's too much to do imo, new players to integrate, and indeed a whole new 'philosophy/system' to implement as well.

Lot's of patience needed by all for season I feel.
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Offline gavshak

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2012, 09:25:21 am »
I'll repeat what I've said in other threads.

First half you lot were very good, and looked like you might score every time you went forward.  The problem was, you didn't.

We played fairly neatly but never really threatened.  Down your left Johnson kept overlapping and caused us loads of problems.

Gera's goal was quality, but I just assumed you'd turn it up another gear in the second half, and end up winning 3-1 to be honest.

The red card obviously changed the game, and after that you were pretty awful, defensively a complete shambles.  If you can start scoring (and I get the impression you've been saying this for a long time) you'll be a pretty good side, especially once you get used to the new system.

Another couple of points...

As far as the referee goes, we were certainly pretty lucky over the course of the game, in terms of you guys getting yellows, and our players getting away without them etc.  But as far as the big decisions go, I really don't think you can complain.  Both were penalties in my honest opinion, and I'd like to think that isn't bias talking.  And it was obviously a red card because he was last man (regardless of how innocuous the foul was).

Also, whilst I think you lot have the makings of a good side, it'll be a while before you're a great side.  You'll be nowhere near top 4 this season.  Bit of a longish term project I think.

Anyway good luck with the rest of the season etc etc.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2012, 09:26:06 am »
Putting harsh bookings, a sending off, soft penalties and senior players going missing to one side, we need to remember that if Suarez had taken anyone of the relatively simple opportunities he had in the first half we would have gone into half time in the lead and probably closed out that game.

We played well that first half but were undone by a worldy. The difference between us and the current group of top teams is that they would have taken at least one of those opportunities that we had before WBA scored. It is hard to be critical of Suarez when he misses a chance he creates for himself but at the very minimum he should be putting that first-half header on target.

It is annoying to think of the amount of money we have spent over the past few seasons on forwards and yet we still lack someone who can put the ball in the back of the net. Last season we scored 47 fewer goals than the champions - that is a massive difference.

One of the biggest plus points for me after the Gomel game was how Suarez, Borini, Downing and Gerrard were constantly swapping positions and interchanging but against WBA they all seemed static. Perhaps if Borini had played centrally more often in that game he may have taken one of those chances?

What is clear is that we cannot rely on Suarez to consistently score goals to maintain a push for top four. For me he needs to play wide left of a front three.

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Offline Stevo79

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2012, 09:27:17 am »
Most of what happened yesterday has been very well covered above although I do have a few things to add.

Going one nil up in games this like can have a massive influence on the outcome of the game as it will allow us to exert control over a side that would otherwise be happy to sit deeper and pick us off on the break when it's either nil nil or if they are leading. This is why I think it's imperative that we get a clincal finisher in. Or, if Rodgers thinks that Borini is this man then play him central with Luis coming in from the left. We simply cannot continue to miss the kind of chances that Luis had in the first half. Not that they would ever sell to us, but Hernandez at United is exactly the type of player I'm thinkng of. Excellent movement coupled with an ability to finish chances the majority of the time.

It's always difficult if certain players aren't performing and there were a few like this yesterday. Therefore, ordinarily I wouldn't like to single anyone out in particular but I can't get away from what a complete and utter waste of space Downing is. I had some kind of forlorn hope that last seasons continual woeful showings may have been down to things just going from bad to worse and a new season may bring about a change in fortunes, especially with him scoring against Gomel. I couldn't have been more wrong, the same things went on and I hope both Sterling and Assaidi play on Thursday with either one of those coming in against City. They don't have to do much to be an improvement on Downing but they both have the ability to go past players and cause problems, which is exactly what you want from a wide forward.

Like others I would like to see Coates come in and partner Skrtel. Play him on Thursday so they have a game together to hopefully be ready for the City and Arsenal.

Not a good start, however it's only one game and there were some promising signs in the first half.

Offline Sheik_Yerbouti

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2012, 09:28:04 am »
Not everything were negative. We were the better team as long as we were 11 against 11. Felt like we would get back into the game before the red card and the penalty. I fucking hate that rule, straight red and a penalty. That's more often than not worse than letting in a goal. We should have done better with some of the chances we created though. Suarez had a couple of very good chances, especially the header, Johnson should have done much better when he launched a rebound 50 yards over the bar. Very disappointing result but there's not much you can do when you are first trailing a goal via a wonder strike, then given a doubtful red and two dubious penalties against us.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2012, 09:30:52 am »
My take:

The speed of the game was a hell of a lot faster than preseason and that is what we really struggled with. West Brom pressed well not giving our defence any time. Unfortunately we were not well drilled enough to deal with that. While we have it down pat enough to knock about a 2nd rate team in the Europa Leauge, we've still got some way to go before it will be effective in the quicker Premier League.

Which is a little worrying really, because we should've been further along in terms of fitness, given that we've been playing europa league qualifiers recently. We should've been a lot sharper then them yesterday and we weren't.

Offline Bouncer

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2012, 09:38:01 am »
The minute that penalty came and Agger was sent off, the game was a bogey. Chasing 1-0 we would have still mullered them with 11 men I reckon. First hakf was honestly a joy as far as I'm concerned. Play Gerrard where Downing was and Henderson in his stead in the middle, Enrique left and Johnson right, and that's some side.

Nothing we could have done about Gera's goal, Agger flogged the pen - silly boy, and Skrtel had a brainfart. The Lukaku goal was a bit of a joke. But equally we could have been 3-0 up at half time.

Patience will pay off - there are signs of some lovely football there when it settles. The best of Dalglish's sides with structure in the middle. Disappointing result, but green shoots.

Suarez is gonna get nowt all season.

Re Suarez ... It's a disgrace the way hes been treated - it's open season on him by fans, players and officials. He is one hell of a character to withstand all the abuse he gets and keep going. I respect that hugely. We need to keep vocalizing the injustice of his treatment and stop being so nice.  This whole Respect campaign is a bunch of arse ... a total load of rubbish ... officials are an affliction ... I actually empathize with Pardew ... I enjoy the fact that our plays dont hound or harass the goddamn refs ... But I think that it's time to revisit that as the good behaviour and giving them an easy ride doesn't reap any benefits. If anything it's like we don't care if we don't contest spurious decisions ... Even if they aren't spurious sometimes. Anyway, shit start that's honeymoon over ... For the players not BR ... need to make a lot of noise next Sunday and make such a din that it scares Manchester City ... Let's take it out on City, Arsena and United...and when we get a hold of those gobby twats from WBA ... Tear them a new arsehole ... Shit club and shit fans that they are !
Gatusso says that Liverpool play too many long balls?

I don’t think he watches many Liverpool games, the same way I don’t watch many Milan games. (Rafa)

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: WBA 3 - 0 Liverpool FC
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 09:41:38 am »
Sat there watching a game that we are 3-0 down in, 5 minutes before full time when we could (and probably should!) have been 3-0 up 5 minutes before half time.
Very impressed with our first half show.  After a nervy first 10 minutes we gained confidence and there was so much movement and the ball really did move so much quicker than the last few years.  The sad fact is that the story of last year was 'missed chances' and 'posts being hit'.  Just hope that the theme hasn't been set once more for this season!

We conceded a wonder goal just before half time. Sometimes there is little you can do about matters and I reckon this was one of them.

Second half starts in a similar fashion.  Then midfield balls up, Skrtel slips and then we have an incident that once again smacks of consistencies (or inconsistencies!) with last season.  The penalty.  Agger should not have given the lad a nudge but Long went down very easily - in very similar fashion to when he had won a free kick at the opposite end in the first half.

Got to admit my initial take on it was that it was a penalty.  Sending off though?  This is where the comparisons with last season kick in.  In fact, this is where the comparison with the first game of last season can be brought.

Rewind 12 months.  With something like 5 minutes on the clock last season versus Sunderland, ‘cuddly’ Phil Dowd has a decision to make.  The scores are locked at 0-0 and Kieran Richardson brings down Luis when he is the last man.  Rightly or wrongly Dowd gives Richardson the benefit of the doubt.  For the incident, Richardson and the Sunderland keeper are out of the game and Suarez has arguably a more simple task to roll the ball into an open net than Long had yesterday.
Yesterday, at 1-0 – and the game still in the balance, ‘cuddly’ Phil red cards Daniel Agger.  So what is the difference?  Dowd cannot be accused of being a homer because Richardson would have walked last season.  Why is Agger red carded but Richardson let off?

The rule is defined by FIFA as such;

"A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences;"

…of which the 5th bullet point clarifies….

"..denying a an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the players goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick".

Which raises a few questions.

If the intricacies of the rule above are interpreted to the word then are the Agger or Richardson incidents sending off offences? Technically - no!  Both are not heading towards goal when the infringement firts occurs

Was Agger’s offence first committed on the edge of the penalty area? - First infringement was just out

We have a 50-50 on whether the initial challenge was in the area and, having lost out on that, a 50-50 on whether Long was heading for the goal and whether it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity.  The reality is we have had the shitty end of the stick on two ‘key’ decisions within seconds and with the game finely balanced.  We've also lost Agger for games versus City and Arsenal.

The sending off changed the game.  Even if Dowd had awarded the penalty and yellow carded Agger we’d have been playing 11 vs 11 at 1-0 down.  Would we have got back into it? Who knows – I’d seen little in the first hour our or so that would suggest that we couldn't.

Having gone down to 10 men we were awful.  Defending high up the pitch to press play was always going to expose Carra against pace but the disappointing thing was the resignation to defeat.  We simply fell apart and realistically the scoreline could have been 4 or 5.

That said, we are getting used to a new system.  West Brom away was always a winnable fixture but it was by no means a nailed on 3 points.

Positives have got to be the first half and Joe Allens debut.

Negatives? Inability to score, Johnson is a far better right back than he is a left back and I’m really not convinced it will work out for Stewart Downing here…definitely not on the right anyway.

Hopefully we’ll learn from this and I hope Rodgers does have a word with the FA and compare the Agger and Richardson incidents.  Is it worth an appeal?  Probably not.  Either way Rodgers has flagged Dowd’s performance without being over critical and rightly so.

Of course it is wrong to pin the defeat entirely on Dowd’s performance.  Had we turned our dominance into goals we’d have been home and dry by the time Gera scored his wonder goal.  We would be unlikely to be flagging Dowd's 'decisions'.  But there really is no link to how shit we are in front of goal and how dodgy Phil Dowd has to perform.

He is paid a princely sum to keep in shape *ahem* and officiate consistently regardless of the teams or the situations.  Paranoia?  Embarrassing?  No - just pointing out facts.  There was a fantastic quote by someone on these boards last season.  “when does a coincidence after coincidence after coincidence stop becoming a coincidence?”