Topic: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton

[BabuYagu]

1. Milner will be a useful player for us under Klopp. Perhaps not the most important player, but key nonetheless. He does everything asked of him of the ball, and I think his selfless movement in the final 3rd will be rewarded more as the team starts working on attacking patterns of play.

2. Lovren hasn't even played yet since Klopp arrived so there's no basis for that comparison.

3. Mignolet has done fine so far and Klopp has praised him on multiple occasions already. I doubt Klopp will even consider moving him before the summer, if at all.

While he is trying, he is still not a sweeper keeper, nor will he ever be. His feet are too slow, his passing and kicking arenīt great and his throwing was suspect even in the last game. A marked improvement but be honest, if you cast an eye around the Bundesliga, do you not think Klopp already knows several keepers there better suited to what he needs and would only cost ~10 euros max.

The question for me isnīt "is Mignolet doing better" itīs "can he be what we need?" or even "is he the best we can attain?". Itīs no to me on both of those. Short term he is no longer a problem but Iīm almost certain we will upgrade there further down the line. A lot of fan favourites will probably be upgraded on too.

[rickardinho1]

While he is trying, he is still not a sweeper keeper, nor will he ever be. His feet are too slow, his passing and kicking arenīt great and his throwing was suspect even in the last game. A marked improvement but be honest, if you cast an eye around the Bundesliga, do you not think Klopp already knows several keepers there better suited to what he needs and would only cost ~10 euros max.

The question for me isnīt "is Mignolet doing better" itīs "can he be what we need?" or even "is he the best we can attain?". Itīs no to me on both of those. Short term he is no longer a problem but Iīm almost certain we will upgrade there further down the line. A lot of fan favourites will probably be upgraded on too.

Long-term yes, but I think he'll want to solve other issues first.

I've had a close look at goalkeepers around Europe (making several posts last week on it) and to be honest there aren't many that would be huge upgrades on Mignolet right now AND be available.

In Germany there are 3 names that come to mind - Horn, Karius, and Leno. Whilst all 3 should develop into better GK's than Mignolet, right now I'd say that only Leno is in fact better right now. Leno has a release clause of Ģ13m which I think is ok if we want him.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we upgraded on Mignolet, I just think criticism of him atm is a bit nittpicky, and there really aren't as many available upgrade-worthy GK's out there right now. Bernd Leno would be great though.

[SerbianScouser]

Watching this game made me realize how difficult it`s gonna be to implement counter pressing and win the ball in opposition half in this league.

In PL there`s only a half a dozen teams who pride themselves being the teams that insist on their build-up from the back and who welcome opposition teams pressing them in their own half as it gives them a chance to pass through and take advantage of ensuing vast open spaces in the final third - I see Arsenal, City, Spurs and Utd as those teams and maybe 1-2 more.

I also thought Soton may be that team but watching the game you could see that they refused to complicate things in their own half and they refused to be pressed because whenever we pressed them their CBs would kick a long pass towards Pelle or to their fullbacks because due to the shape of our 4321 formation open spaces were on the sides and they often chose that option.

The idea of our christmas tree formation is to block the central area and funnel teams wide and set pressing traps there, it`s a good reason why we looked so solid defensively these 3 games as teams find it extremely difficult to go right through us.

I also see Chelsea doing the exact same thing next week though if they pick Zouma and Azpi as their fullbacks like they did at W.Ham we might have a lot of joy winning the ball that way as the two of them are below ordinary on the ball.

Going forward it`s gonna be interesting how we address this issue as it seems that Klopp`s reputation precedes him and teams are scared of gegenpressing and don`t want to allow us pressing them in their own half which means that overall we`re still need to rely more on our own build-up play to create chances rather than winning the ball in opposition half.

[jooneyisdagod]

I think this game has been very much like the Spurs and the Kazan game before that in that there were some positives and some negatives. We progressed on some fronts and regressed on others. All of that is to be expected in a team that is undergoing a fundamental shift in tactics. Many of the problems of Brendan's reign do persist, if only because we're still dealing with the fallout from the atrocious transfer strategy that seemingly included buying players for the same position, one from the manager's side and another from the TC leading to a very unbalanced side.

We've also had some players miss out due to injuries and the return of Benteke showed that while he might not be the answer in terms of providing pace and mobility to the side, he can certainly be an absolute nightmare for defenders to deal with. Origi does work hard, but he really needs to think about his own game a bit more, because at the moment I see him moving into areas where he does little damage far too often. As an inexperienced kid, he has all the time in the world to work with a manager like Klopp to work that out. My impression is that he ends up too far out wide too often, or ends up dropping too deep, and on the occasions where he makes the runs forward, he's very hard to pick out. His movement needs to improve and that's something that'll come from experience, so I'm not overly worried.

On the whole, the Southampton game showed that if we're to progress this season, we need our strikers to be fit and for Firmino to hit the form that he showed at Hoffenheim. His brief cameo was promising in that he won the ball several times, moved intelligently and got the ball in dangerous areas without making too much happen. But, I loved that he came on and was pointing at where he wanted the ball and was instructing others to move into areas. We really need someone like that given Coutinho for all his talent doesn't do that. I get the feeling from the looking at them briefly that the two of them will link up beautifully given the chance and based on his style of play, I can see the two of them also link up well with Sturridge.

I'm not the biggest fan of Milner to be honest. His touch is brutal, and he runs around a lot and puts in more effort than most others, but there is a serious lack of quality IMO. Lallana is a great player, but should be playing deeper IMO and would have been very good in one of the midfield positions in Brendan's 4-4-2 diamond in a deeper role, but as a no.10, I think he doesn't drive into the box enough or play creative passes often enough. If everyone is fit, I think he may find himself behind Coutinho and Lallana in the pecking order.

But for me the biggest issue is the huge lack of pace in this side. Sturridge is the only one with a genuine burst of acceleration that'll have him 10 metres away from the nearest player in a matter of seconds. Ibe is another that can do that, but is currently struggling for confidence and as he starts to believe in himself a bit more and regain the form of his earlier season, I think he might provide that. At the moment, we do really need some pace to help stretch the play and prevent the opponent from compressing the play as much as some teams do against us. I'm hoping to see Ibe or someone else given a go to see what they can do in that respect against Bournemouth.

[LiamG]

This is a brilliant article if you want to see the number of changes Klopp made second half to try and change the course of the game. I particularly liked the gif below showing how Klopp changed things in the second half.

It should put to bed the notion that Klopp isnīt a very tactical coach which I have seen in some quarters.

i already posted it

[Abraham]

This is a bit of a weird time for your modern LFC fan. I've decided to call it "The Long Wait".

For all the excitement around Klopps signing, with our current first team squad (lots of heads gone in my view), any impact by a new manager was always going to take time.

Even as we all watched her Klopps plane arrive in Libpool, I had a less than orgasmic feeling that this was the start of something new (in recent times) for the club, but that it would take some time to take effect. New manager = more time I have to be patient.

I'm not much of a football player, and when it comes to managing teams I'm essentially clueless. Even so, I could see that plugging the major holes in our first team would take time. So OK I've shown that I have some patience and I can rationalise a situation; but in all honesty that didn't stop me wanting... and waiting for, our first 5-0.

That's the trouble, much like looking to play a new game you've just downloaded, you start off a bit shit, learn the ropes with what tools you've been given; then eventually slaughter all and sundry.

That to me is where we are now. The discussion over the way forward, particularly about players and transfer windows is all a bit moot until we give the new Boss the time
he needs to come up with a plan that makes us League Champions and the champions of Europe once again.

The difference this time, I think, is that if we give the Boss the time he needs, "The Long Wait" will be over

[Mutton Geoff]

I will say first off we are right now about at the same level of quality in our squad as Southampton has, but only when we have everyone available, so although a win would have been brilliant I feel a draw was not too shabby.

As for the game itself,  this is a few personal observations on the team we put out:

Simon Mignolet gets rid of the ball quicker and we don’t pass it back to him endlessly anymore, for me this has helped his confidence not just with his kicking but with his whole game, he has made valuable world class saves in all three games, also he looks more relaxed to me.

Clyne growing into an excellent WB for us  and a good outlet on the right somebody on the Prosac sponsored thread suggested he is becoming Glenn Johnson well they are seeing another game and a different performance to the one I watched.

Moreno great defending good going forward but someone should tell him that just because he scored a worldie at Spurs last season doesn’t mean he should fire off shots all the time and expect the same result, in this game he reminded me so much of JAR.

Skrtel-Sakho better seemed a bit more on the same wave length and Sakho is a delight to watch.

Lucas- Can Lucas simply his usual reliable best and Can is growing into the position he needs better decision making but he is getting there after wasting him in the back three or four.

Coutinho Class is permanent, form is temporary he will get back to what we love him for.

Milner great cross , stupid foul this is the Milner Enigma right now.

Lallana  for me a total revelation since Klopp arrived his energy and runs off the ball deserves better than he got in this game.

Origi I feel sorry for this lad, he is being asked to do a job he wasnt meant to be doing this soon, but he shows some nice touches on the ball and I feel just needs a goal to kick start his career with us. People need to remember if all our strikers are fit he is the fourth choice.

Benteke what a goal someone said Toshack like and yes it was , when he is fully fit he will be some player for us.

Firmino looked good in his cameo nice touches he will come good I believe and score and make a lot of goals.

Ibe not on long enough to judge.

Future thoughts Henderson in for perhaps Milner, and as much as  I rate him Firmino for Lallana and I am struggling to know who we drop from this lot for Sturridge without unbalancing the team.

 Lovren getting back in only for Skrtel unless Sakho gets injured.

So right now I can see the seeds of success we need a win and the confidence from that to move onwards and upwards.
I also want to see us score lots of goals so I can watch loads of Klopp’s celebrations

[Not A Scouser]

The reason for replacing Rodgers with Klopp was for a change to improve results.  It's very early but we can look for some changes in what Klopp is looking towards in comparison to what Rodgers was looking towards.

Rodgers came in with a preferred formation of 433, with the midfield 3 being his 2-1 (looks a lot like a 4231) or 1-2 (the present 433).  He wanted "death by football" which was a combination of high pressing on defence and possession in attack.

Klopp comes in with a preferred formation of 433/4231 similar to Rodgers, with high pressing in defence but an ideal of fast transitions when in attack.

Klopp has come in and instituted his pressing defensive style right away, and the defensive results have been good, 2 goals in 3 games is excellent.  However, we saw Rodgers use a pressing style to great effect, noticeably against Arsenal.  However, the intensity of Rodgers' pressing was lower, lasted for fewer minutes in a game, and was a far cry from appearing in every game. It seems to me that the intensity of the pressing under Klopp has already decreased markedly from that first game against Tottenham, which will happen when you play games every three days with basically the same line-up.  What is the big difference between what Rodgers wanted and what Klopp wants?  What is the difference in problems they face getting what they want?

The basic concept of the attacking side of the game is markedly different, patient, probing possession against immediate attack (put in the most extreme manner.)  Rodgers wanted to starve the opposition of the ball, percentage of possession mattered to him.  Klopp is completely happy with possession flipping rapidly back and forward as long as that happens in the other team's half, chaos in their half, structure in ours.  However, what was the style that Rodgers had the most success using?  Rapid, incisive counter-attacks whenever the ball was turned over, wherever that was on the field.  Rodgers attacking style this year seemed, to me, closer to that than a pure possession-based game.

It's very early, and I am far from completely up on Klopp's tactics, but I wonder what are the real differences between the two?  Klopp has been far more successful in the past, but doing precisely what that was different from what Rodgers was doing in the last two and a half years?  The most striking thing about the new Klopp era is how close it looks to the old one, other than the players working a lot harder for the new coach.

Strikers get most of the plaudits, but it might actually be true that they are under-estimated in value. 

My wife is a Newcastle fan, and under Pardew they had some of the largest swings in performance I have ever seen.  It was as clear as night and day to me that these swings were based around whether he had a striker who could score.  Demba Ba scored at an amazing rate for half a season, and then Papiss Cisse was ridiculous for the second half of the season, and they finished fifth.  Ba left and Cisse got injured (and returned to earth) and they finished 16th. Loic Remy was a reliable finisher, but when he left they collapsed again.  Demba Ba versus Shola Ameobi is worth multiple places in the table.

Last year it was Sturridge versus Balotelli etc., worth how many places?  One? Two?  Two is 4th and Rodgers still has his job.  Benteke and Sturridge is worth how many places?

This year it is Sturridge and/or Benteke against Ings (at first) and now Origi.  It's so clear how much better we are in attack with either Sturridge or Benteke to anyone watching.  Even half a goal a game difference would be enough for two of our five draws to be wins, and us ahead of Spurs and the favourites for fourth, and Rodgers still with a job.

There are some differences I can see.  Klopp clearly is a more defensively-oriented coach, and we already look more organized.  I don't assume a goal will come from each opposition's set piece (although the results don't seem different yet). Klopp is a more likable figure, will be more popular with players and fans, and possibly helpful with recruiting.  Oddly enough Klopp seems more committed to his style than Rodgers, but that style seems very similar to what Rodgers was actually using.

I'm not opposed to Klopp at all, but I thought Rodgers was a good coach.  I think Klopp is probably better, mostly based on his defensive abilities, Klopp has a track record that instills belief, and people were burnt out on Rodgers' schtick.  However, I think a much bigger deal is the health of our two, very good, strikers.  Sturridge or Benteke playing over Origi is a bigger difference than Rodgers or Klopp managing.  The two of them playing together is multiple spots in the table.

What I expect for this season is something that over time looks a lot like us under Rodgers.  Over the next couple of months things will seem bitty, the intensity will dwindle as our main players tire.  Then at some point Sturridge and/or Benteke will get healthy, the team will get familiar with each other and the coach, and we will go on an exciting run.  If we are close enough to legitimately challenge for fourth then the team will run and run for Klopp, and if they aren't the intensity level will drop and we'll finish somewhere between 5th and 7th.

That's a lot to take from only three games, but that's what internet forums are for.