Topic: LFC 1-1 Norwich Round Table

[redmark]

I read an article today, I think it's in the 3-4-3 thread. It mentioned how to play against low block defences. Switching play, changing the tempo, combinations and runs in the channels were some of the things that could be used. Without Gerrard, we miss the ability to switch the ball from one flank to another with a single pass. But we should be able to change the tempo, we should be able to use combinations and I think we should be able to get runs from our strikers (unlike last season). We saw some combinations yesterday with Lallana, Firmino and Coutinho. They'll know what to do.

My concern is with the two CMs. In theory, I reckon it's best if we could have players that can take turns being the more attacking player. In reality, I think it works just as well when we have one more defensive and one more attacking. The most attacking we can get, without risking everything, is to play two CBs and a defensive midfielder. Then we push the fullbacks higher up and we become something like a 2-1-4-3. But here's the thing for me - how does that help? Essentially, what we do is we push even more players in the already crowded area. What we need is the kind of player Gerrard was, and what Rafa identified, the player to break into the box. I'm not convinced we have any CM who is like that. Which makes me think, perhaps we should just accept that. Accept it and pull them deeper, then hand over the work to our attacking midfielders. We have a few of them.

That's the problem with the shape and selection, though - it took three substitutions and 70-odd minutes to get those three creating those combinations.

I completely agree with Zeb's point and was discussing it in the 3-at-the-back thread. Three at the back is okay in principle; I wouldn't go for it with this group of players, but leave that aside for a moment. But a back three and Lucas sitting in front of it - and he did get further forward a little and make some telling passes, but not as much as a more naturally attacking player would have done - is absolute overkill. At home. Against bloody Norwich.

The 'neutral' selection, in that shape, would have been to play Coutinho alongside Milner, putting four 'attacking' players onto the pitch. Even pushing Can into midfield in place of Lucas would have been relatively 'defensive'. To illustrate how defensive I think our actual selection was, the offensive equivalent would have been a midfield two of Coutinho and Lallana, with Firmino behind the strikers. And you know what? At home to relegation fodder, I don't think that would be a particularly extreme decision. It would at least have provided some tempo, some combinations, some intricate movement to ask questions of Norwich's defensive organisation.

Rodgers, I think, is - and has, for about 12 and a half months now - letting caution and indecision cloud his better judgement when it comes to selection and style. We're not playing as he originally wanted to. We're not playing as we did in the so-called 'Suarez season'. We're trying to be solid, sticking three or four attacking players on the pitch and hoping they work it out themselves. And barring the odd bit of individual skill, they're not. Because football is played against an opposition, almost all of which seem to be better drilled and more confident than us. But how can the players be confident, when the manager clearly isn't confident? - by his selections, his tweaks, his utterances; god knows what he's like in training just now.

[na fir dearg]

is there a case at all for playing Moreno as more of a left winger, with Gomez behind him at left back? Moreno definitely added a real attacking threat to our game on Sunday, really impressive

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

is there a case at all for playing Moreno as more of a left winger, with Gomez behind him at left back? Moreno definitely added a real attacking threat to our game on Sunday, really impressive

I guess it all comes down to what formation we are going to play.

If we go three at the back, then Gomez as a CB and Moreno as the wing back might work? If we go flat back four, then Gomez and Moreno on the left would work easier - but then you'll be taking out another player to fit Moreno in.

My choice would by three centre backs - Skrtel, Sakho and Gomez (Gomez on the right, Sakho on the left and Skrtel central) with Clyne and Moreno as wing backs. I think this allows us the best opportunity to get as many attackers on as possible.

[redmark]

My choice would by three centre backs - Skrtel, Sakho and Gomez (Gomez on the right, Sakho on the left and Skrtel central) with Clyne and Moreno as wing backs. I think this allows us the best opportunity to get as many attackers on as possible.

Where? Who plays central midfield?

At home to relegation fodder (at least), we should - like any other team in the top half of the table, none of which play three at the back - be able to play two fullbacks with pace to get up and down, with two centre backs and one central midfielder with some responsibility for defending against the counter. Three 'defensive' players, two attacking fullbacks. So if we switch that to three CBs, we really shouldn't need a defensive-minded midfielder in addition.

Benteke, Sturridge, Ings, Origi, Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino. We need to be getting four - perhaps even five - of those on the pitch in home games we (should) expect to be winning comfortably; because to win comfortably, we actually have to be fluent and cohesive and creative. That needs a choice. We can't do that and play four defensive central players, plus two fullbacks/wingbacks, plus a box-to-box midfielder.

[Mighty_Red]

The problem with having a round table for this game is that it is very difficult to look at this without taking everything else into account.

The main problem is that we are still struggling to create an identity for ourselves which really shouldn't be the case coming into a 4th season even with all the new players. Was this match an attempt to implement the correct identity and strategy? If so, then the result is acceptable as long as things improve in the coming matches.

The problem was also there at Bordeaux, individually the defenders did well but collectively we seems to be cut open too easily. That stems from midfield and we are showing weakness esp without Hendo. In some ways it would be better to leave Can in midfield and let him grow into the role than put him back as a CB and try to fix the midfield. Being a little bit more open will probably help us against the lower teams though.

Sometimes the one thing you really need is composure and we lacked it at both ends of the pitch, apart from Ings' goal. So many chances were wasted simply because we rushed into the wrong decision - the wrong layoff, shooting when passing was the better option and vice versa. Suarez did the same for 18 months - he scored great goals but missed easy chances, hitting the woodwork when he should score etc. Once he gained that composure inside the penalty box, there was no stopping him.

Coutinho is at that stage when he can score great goals but not much else (in terms of scoring). We shouldn't be putting all the pressure on him to win us games on his own - hopefully the movement of Sturridge, Ings and Benteke will allow him to put more of those passes in.

[redmark]

19th September:

Liverpool boss Brendan Rodgers has said his side need to be more adventurous to improve their form in front of goal.

The Reds, who host Norwich City on Sunday, have scored three goals from five Premier League games this term.

"I think, for some reason, that wee bit of risk has gone out of our game," said Rodgers, whose side have not won in five games.

"We need to ensure we take those risks in order to create in the game and bring that intensity to it."

Rodgers has more firepower at his disposal, following forward Adam Lallana's goal-scoring return from a thigh problem in Thursday's 1-1 Europa League draw with Bordeaux. Daniel Sturridge is also nearing full fitness after a number of injuries.

"I think when Adam has played he has been excellent and if he plays consistently over a period of time, Adam will reach the numbers that we would like from him - I think it is only injuries that have curbed that so far," said Rodgers.


20th September:

Benteke      Sturridge
Coutinho
Moreno        Lucas    Milner        Clyne
Sakho   Skrtel   Can
Mignolet

Subs: Bogdan, Gomez, Lovren, Ibe, Lallana, Firmino, Ings.


Apologies for the bold-fest.

There's a fundamental disconnect here, one Rodgers needs to resolve to retain his job.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Where? Who plays central midfield?

At home to relegation fodder (at least), we should - like any other team in the top half of the table, none of which play three at the back - be able to play two fullbacks with pace to get up and down, with two centre backs and one central midfielder with some responsibility for defending against the counter. Three 'defensive' players, two attacking fullbacks. So if we switch that to three CBs, we really shouldn't need a defensive-minded midfielder in addition.

Benteke, Sturridge, Ings, Origi, Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino. We need to be getting four - perhaps even five - of those on the pitch in home games we (should) expect to be winning comfortably; because to win comfortably, we actually have to be fluent and cohesive and creative. That needs a choice. We can't do that and play four defensive central players, plus two fullbacks/wingbacks, plus a box-to-box midfielder.

We should - but we don't seem able to.

442 seems to be the formation where we get run through quite easily. If we go a flat 442, we seem to get over powered - do the midfielder's hold or go forward? If they hold station, we have no attacking support - as a result our wide men get pulled inside and we lose the width we could have.

3412 or 352 at least allows us a little protection in the middle whilst maintaining width. Plus it allows us to mix the central midfield up - we can go 1-2 or 2-1.

If it were me, and this is purely only my opinion (and I can be swayed with proper arguement!) is that we go three centre backs (Gomez, Skrtel and Sakho) two wing backs (Moreno and Clyne) three in the middle (A mix of any of Henderson, Milner, Can, Lucas, Coutinho, Firmino) and then two up top (Benteke, Sturridge, Ings, Origi).

Now the centre backs and wing backs pretty much pick themselves - the other players can be moulded around this depending on the opposition and their strengths.

You could pick a more defensively sound (is that possible?) team with 1-2 midfield including Coutinho, Henderson and Milner or go high risk 2-1 with Coutinho, Firmino and Lucas. If we go high risk, you potentially have got 6 players on the pitch that should be capable of winning us games. Even the more conservative approach should see us with 5 decent attackers on the pitch.

On paper and in theory this could work. In practice I'm not so sure.

What I do like is that when everyone is fit an healthy, we have a decent squad and we should see players playing out of their arses to keep their place in the team.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Benteke      Sturridge
Coutinho
Moreno        Lucas    Milner        Clyne
Sakho   Skrtel   Can
Mignolet

Subs: Bogdan, Gomez, Lovren, Ibe, Lallana, Firmino, Ings.


Apologies for the bold-fest.

There's a fundamental disconnect here, one Rodgers needs to resolve to retain his job.

How do you get more of those players on the pitch though? Replace one of Lucas/Milner for Lallana/Firmino and have a 2-1 midfield? Ibe on as a wing back? Would he be more effective than Clyne/Moreno?

I agree with what you're saying - but how do we practically implement it?

[Ycuzz]

How do you get more of those players on the pitch though? Replace one of Lucas/Milner for Lallana/Firmino and have a 2-1 midfield? Ibe on as a wing back? Would he be more effective than Clyne/Moreno?

I agree with what you're saying - but how do we practically implement it?

Remove one of the CBs and go for the diamond. We can still split the CBs, get the, (most), defensive midfielder to drop.

Width might be the question tho, not sure what to do with the backs; fullbacks? wingbacks? If not venturing too far into attack/too often, the 2 midfielders would have to cover that.

Anyhoots, I'd still like to see the diamond utilized a bit more.

[kcbworth]

How do you get more of those players on the pitch though? Replace one of Lucas/Milner for Lallana/Firmino and have a 2-1 midfield? Ibe on as a wing back? Would he be more effective than Clyne/Moreno?

I agree with what you're saying - but how do we practically implement it?

Tbf I think Lallana for Milner in this game... we win. Easily

[mrantarctica]

Benteke      Sturridge
Coutinho
Moreno        Lucas    Milner        Clyne
Sakho   Skrtel   Can
Mignolet

Subs: Bogdan, Gomez, Lovren, Ibe, Lallana, Firmino, Ings.

The only we'll get more of those attacking players on the pitch is if we play 4-1-3-2 but our manager seems to love going back to 3-4-1-2 whenever we have a bad patch of form.

[Suareznumber7]

Just want to pick up on this - I haven't watched it again, but during the match I thought that Lucas actualy created a good few of our better chances, I think even Sturridge's 1-1 with the keeper?

If so, what does that say about a) him as a player and b) the rest of our midfield?

Milner was shocking. Should have come off for Lallana or Firmino. And why does he have to take the corners?

Lucas did create that chance but it was off a Norwich giveaway.  Same situation with the Ings goal.  Norwich gave the ball away and Moreno played a great pass to Ings who took the goal really well. 

Our midfield doesn't really create much in the general run of play which is a worry. 

[Chakan]

Lucas did create that chance but it was off a Norwich giveaway.  Same situation with the Ings goal.  Norwich gave the ball away and Moreno played a great pass to Ings who took the goal really well. 

Our midfield doesn't really create much in the general run of play which is a worry. 

They only gave the ball away because of Lucas's pressing from midfield.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Tbf I think Lallana for Milner in this game... we win. Easily

Possibly right. Do we ever see Milner not playing though? I imagine after the moves we made to get him, he'll almost be the first name on the team sheet.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

Lucas did create that chance but it was off a Norwich giveaway.  Same situation with the Ings goal.  Norwich gave the ball away and Moreno played a great pass to Ings who took the goal really well. 

Our midfield doesn't really create much in the general run of play which is a worry.

Genuine question - in the halcyon days of Suarez, did our midfield create much then? Other than Gerrard and Coutinho?

When we talk of the "midfield" who are we referring to? The collective? The centre pairing? The wide men?

My issue with the midfield wouldn't so much be creating - it'd be creating a defensively solid platform through the middle, that allows the more creative players (Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana) to do the creating. Do our wide men not create much because they are afraid to go forward and leaving the middle more exposed?

If we were more defensively sound, would our other players maybe play with less fear?

[Suareznumber7]

They only gave the ball away because of Lucas's pressing from midfield.

On the goal, yes.  But didn't someone else press when Lucas played in Sturridge for his 1 on 1 with the gk?

The blueprint for how we can be successful is there.  Press up high and play a system with 2 strikers.  In order to get the right balance I think we should be playing a 4-4-2 diamond midfield.  It allows us to get more attackers on the pitch, would allow us to press the ball up high, and have good balance throughout the system. 

[na fir dearg]

On the goal, yes.  But didn't someone else press when Lucas played in Sturridge for his 1 on 1 with the gk?

The blueprint for how we can be successful is there.  Press up high and play a system with 2 strikers.  In order to get the right balance I think we should be playing a 4-4-2 diamond midfield.  It allows us to get more attackers on the pitch, would allow us to press the ball up high, and have good balance throughout the system.

I think Brendan will eventually fall upon a system that works for the players we have...but i fear it might come too late in the day

[redmark]

How do you get more of those players on the pitch though? Replace one of Lucas/Milner for Lallana/Firmino and have a 2-1 midfield? Ibe on as a wing back? Would he be more effective than Clyne/Moreno?

I agree with what you're saying - but how do we practically implement it?

There are several possibilities - and I occasionally get frustrated with everyone detailing the benefits of their own preference without reference to what the manager seems to want to do, so I don't really want to follow suit and propose my own (which we haven't necessarily bought for).

That's the crux here - which shape does Rodgers see as his default shape, at least at home to the teams we should be beating? I don't think anyone could convince me that yesterday's formation was the one he'd actually choose without feeling the pressure of our circumstances and having to try and arrest a poor run of form. But is an improvement in form more likely to result from accidentally stumbling onto the right shape (and I anticipate that several people think that's precisely what Rodgers has done in his Liverpool career), or getting the one he has in his head to actually work? We all have an opinion on whether it can work or will work, but I still feel it's almost impossible that Rodgers will find success in compromising on his ideas; but at the moment, he lacks the belief to follow them, which is just a downward spiral. He may stumble onto a run of results in that way, but I don't feel he'll rediscover our best, sustainable form - the sort of form that actually wins things - that can only come through a successful implementation (including player confidence and understanding) of what really wants us to do.

But from everything he's ever said, it has to have more creative players on the pitch than we managed yesterday. Which was one.

[stockdam]

How do you get more of those players on the pitch though? Replace one of Lucas/Milner for Lallana/Firmino and have a 2-1 midfield? Ibe on as a wing back? Would he be more effective than Clyne/Moreno?

I agree with what you're saying - but how do we practically implement it?

A good team is about balance. It's not about throwing all your attacking players on the pitch (unless you are chasing the game). Our great teams had balance. Flair, pace, toughness and teamwork. You've got to have good players in the correct positions; some win the ball, some defend and some attack. I can see us sorting out our attack and defence but the midfield still looks a bit weak.

[Reeves]

Oh for a player like alonso/redknapp who could sit in our cm and dictate the tempo. We have no obvious style/ball retention at the moment

[Mighty_Red]

I think Brendan will eventually fall upon a system that works for the players we have...but i fear it might come too late in the day

That is my biggest worry - Brendan shouldn't be "searching" for a system that works for the players we have, he should KNOW the system. We spent enough money in the window to enable him to play the system he wants. Getting improvements should be all about tweaking the system, not making wholesale changes again and again. Brendan had to do it last year because of the circumstances (some beyond his control, some very much in his control) but I don't think that can be acceptable now.

One thing is the the subs did make an impact against Norwich, so a lot of this is going to be about how to fit enough attacking players into the side

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

There are several possibilities - and I occasionally get frustrated with everyone detailing the benefits of their own preference without reference to what the manager seems to want to do, so I don't really want to follow suit and propose my own (which we haven't necessarily bought for).

That's the crux here - which shape does Rodgers see as his default shape, at least at home to the teams we should be beating? I don't think anyone could convince me that yesterday's formation was the one he'd actually choose without feeling the pressure of our circumstances and having to try and arrest a poor run of form. But is an improvement in form more likely to result from accidentally stumbling onto the right shape (and I anticipate that several people think that's precisely what Rodgers has done in his Liverpool career), or getting the one he has in his head to actually work? We all have an opinion on whether it can work or will work, but I still feel it's almost impossible that Rodgers will find success in compromising on his ideas; but at the moment, he lacks the belief to follow them, which is just a downward spiral. He may stumble onto a run of results in that way, but I don't feel he'll rediscover our best, sustainable form - the sort of form that actually wins things - that can only come through a successful implementation (including player confidence and understanding) of what really wants us to do.

But from everything he's ever said, it has to have more creative players on the pitch than we managed yesterday. Which was one.

So ideally what the club, what Rodgers needs to do, is decide upon a style, a philosophy, a system that he wants to play - and recruit around that central model? No point wanting to play with wingers and having none - or conversely not playing with wingers and having loads.

At the moment he seems to have a loose idea in his head and shoe horns people into it. I'm sure Rodgers will know this - but his best chance of getting us firing is a formation that will utilise our best components - Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho, Firmino. Can he get all of those on the pitch?

I know he talked about having a vision when he started - he needs to go back to this - to be true to his principals.

[GregCharrua]

We had more fluency against Norwich but a very poor performance from Milner I think handicapped us quite a bit. At least you felt we wanted to attack and be aggressive. The pressing was really great for moments. All improvements over what we've been seeing.

From Rodgers own comments, yes we've been devoid of risk-taking since May 2014. All of last season we just looked like a team trying desperately not to make a mistake, not to worried if we ever get a shot off - save that 3-at-the-back blip that started with everyone shaving their head.

Against Norwich, at least, I felt I saw a bit of that hunger.

But I have no idea what Rodgers is after in the bigger picture.

We have Milner, Henderson, Can and Lucas for midfielders. Good players with their qualities but three of them together in a midfield built around, supposedly, possession and patience? They do, to be fair, bring the other required elements: athleticism and pressing when we're off the ball. But we're not exactly set up for geggenpressing either, are we? In all things Rodger's LFC is defined by indecision - players on the pitch, our shape and tactics, are recruitment.

As for my own opinions I think we need to start working more on shape in attack and doing some basics. There was a really good article posted, I think in the post match, about Tuschel and Juego de Posicion. I see a lot of our own problems in what plagued Dortmund last season - there's a graphic of average positions subtitled "Dortmund hates triangles" and I feel like that is an issue for Rodgers.

On one hand, it seems rodgers wants totally free-flowing football in attack, yet we're a side bereft of truly creative players who can dribble and have the intelligence to move, make runs, and take advantage of that freedom.

I personally think Coutinho needs to be in the midfield, where his dribbling and vision will help us out a lot more than having him wide or playing up off of benteke. If we're going to play three at the back (gomez, skrtel, sakho) with wingbacks (clyne, moreno) then we can afford to have coutinho as one of the CMs beside Lucas or Henderson or even better Allen. In front of them there's room for a combination of Lallana, Firmino, Benteke, Ings and Ibe. Milner would be better as a RWB. He doesn't have what we need in a CM, and I dont think he is going to just switch it on at some moment either. In hard away games I'd even play him in the two behind the striker, where he can run and press and cause havok and still come back and help in defense.

But to be fair I don't know shit compared to Rodgers or anyone else in that backroom staff. But it seems there's a massive disconnect between the team, the tactics, and the philosophy. We're ALWAYS between two stools in every facet of the game and its tiring.

Norwich at least did have a glimmer of promise in it so lets hope we build on that.

[Suareznumber7]

Genuine question - in the halcyon days of Suarez, did our midfield create much then? Other than Gerrard and Coutinho?

When we talk of the "midfield" who are we referring to? The collective? The centre pairing? The wide men?

My issue with the midfield wouldn't so much be creating - it'd be creating a defensively solid platform through the middle, that allows the more creative players (Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana) to do the creating. Do our wide men not create much because they are afraid to go forward and leaving the middle more exposed?

If we were more defensively sound, would our other players maybe play with less fear?

You can't take out Gerrard and Coutinho from that midfield though.  Those two did create, or helped create, a lot of good scoring chances as did Henderson's runs into forward positions to disrupt the defensive shape. Don't forget that Sterling was a part of that midfield as well and he also helped create a lot of chances. 

Whether we were pressing higher up the pitch, moving the ball quickly, or making great movements, the blueprint for how we could be successful was that season and that system.  I'll never for the life of me understand why we went away from that system and back to 4-3-3. 

[Suareznumber7]

There are several possibilities - and I occasionally get frustrated with everyone detailing the benefits of their own preference without reference to what the manager seems to want to do, so I don't really want to follow suit and propose my own (which we haven't necessarily bought for).

That's the crux here - which shape does Rodgers see as his default shape, at least at home to the teams we should be beating? I don't think anyone could convince me that yesterday's formation was the one he'd actually choose without feeling the pressure of our circumstances and having to try and arrest a poor run of form. But is an improvement in form more likely to result from accidentally stumbling onto the right shape (and I anticipate that several people think that's precisely what Rodgers has done in his Liverpool career), or getting the one he has in his head to actually work? We all have an opinion on whether it can work or will work, but I still feel it's almost impossible that Rodgers will find success in compromising on his ideas; but at the moment, he lacks the belief to follow them, which is just a downward spiral. He may stumble onto a run of results in that way, but I don't feel he'll rediscover our best, sustainable form - the sort of form that actually wins things - that can only come through a successful implementation (including player confidence and understanding) of what really wants us to do.

But from everything he's ever said, it has to have more creative players on the pitch than we managed yesterday. Which was one.

Regards the bolded, I don't think anyone knows what the managers preference is which is why people talk about their own preferences. 

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

You can't take out Gerrard and Coutinho from that midfield though.  Those two did create, or helped create, a lot of good scoring chances as did Henderson's runs into forward positions to disrupt the defensive shape. Don't forget that Sterling was a part of that midfield as well and he also helped create a lot of chances. 

Whether we were pressing higher up the pitch, moving the ball quickly, or making great movements, the blueprint for how we could be successful was that season and that system.  I'll never for the life of me understand why we went away from that system and back to 4-3-3.

Genuinely forgot him! Though would he and Coutinho be classed as midfield or attack? It's all subjective really.

[Suareznumber7]

Genuinely forgot him! Though would he and Coutinho be classed as midfield or attack? It's all subjective really.

Attacking midfielders   

[redmark]

So ideally what the club, what Rodgers needs to do, is decide upon a style, a philosophy, a system that he wants to play - and recruit around that central model? No point wanting to play with wingers and having none - or conversely not playing with wingers and having loads.

At the moment he seems to have a loose idea in his head and shoe horns people into it. I'm sure Rodgers will know this - but his best chance of getting us firing is a formation that will utilise our best components - Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho, Firmino. Can he get all of those on the pitch?

I know he talked about having a vision when he started - he needs to go back to this - to be true to his principals.

Exactly. And one has to assume that we did recruit in the summer roughly to that vision; and that our pre-season and early season shape and style was close to it (if of course still waiting on the return of Sturridge). Which is why - even though we arguably had our best spell last season using it - the reversion to three at the back is disappointing to me. It's not going to save Rodgers his job, I think - because he doesn't believe in it. He believes in a 433, maybe 4D2, of some description, with one of the central 3 quite a creative player. And yet we've reverted to a shape that withdraws Lallana from a creative midfield role, to be replaced by a third centre back; while also replacing Henderson with Lucas, due to injury.

[LFC UNTIL THE MANAGER IS NO LONGER DESERVING OF MY SYMPATHY]

The positive was Moreno. 

That was his best game since Spurs away last season.  For the second half of last season, his attacking game went to pot.  Poor crossing, scared to take on players and was just making simple passes.  He's never going to be the best defender in the world, from what we have seem from him since he joined the club.  But he has a lot of very good attacking attributes and he showed them in this game.  He was our best player by far IMO.

Milner is the biggest disappointment.  Can't fault his work rate, which is exceptional, in terms of effort.  But he's like a headless chicken, running around all over the place and it leaves gap, which gave Lucas numerous issues.  He has also been very disappointing on the ball so far since he joined the club.  If Henderson was fit, I wouldn't have Milner in the side on current form.

But once again we concede at a set play.  Once again we don't mark the goal scorer (Ings lost his man and was more to blame than the Mignolet punch for me, even though Simon should have got more distance on it) and if you look closely he wasn't the only one unmarked in th area for the goal... who's marking the guy on the back post?

I have been posted pics of goals we have conceded where our players are all looking at the ball and being attracted to it.  This was another example of it, just like it happened against Bordeaux, Man U etc.




Also who was marking the Norwich players at the edge of the box, just before the Coutinho one on one chance?  No one.  Just far too slack at marking.

[Red Sea]

Oh for a player like alonso/redknapp who could sit in our cm and dictate the tempo. We have no obvious style/ball retention at the moment

yep, not sure we went for milner when we have henderson here. our midfield is full of grafters but very little nous and composure. That's the strangest thing for me, Brendan marveling over technicians and bar allen has gone to populate our midfield with players opposite to that.

[killer-heels]

yep, not sure we went for milner when we have henderson here. our midfield is full of grafters but very little nous and composure. That's the strangest thing for me, Brendan marveling over technicians and bar allen has gone to populate our midfield with players opposite to that.

Our disconnect between transfers and style and systems just illustrates how clueless we are. At least last season we could claim it was the committee and Rodgers being on different pages. This season its Rodgers being on a different page to himself.

[Angelius]

Although the focus through the summer had been about reinforcing our strike options, my main concern at that point of time was strengthening the midfield.

When no one ended up being signed in that position, except Milner who I thought seemed to be a mirror image (and arguably a poor one at that) of Henderson, I had begun to worry. My worry began to dissipate a bit over the first couple of games. We seemed to be playing more compact than usual offering our midfield a fair amount of protection. Furthermore, we seemed to be favoring speedy, vertical counter-attacks. Rodgers seemed to understand that a midfield three of any combination of our current midfielders offered neither control or nous nor a base for our attacking play. Being compact and tight seemed to be our best option.

Over the past few games, we've moved away from that because well, that's not exactly the route to winning games especially when playing at home. When teams come to play at Anfield and are parking the bus, having a good control and guile in midfield is an essential step in dominating teams and eventually putting them to the sword. I was especially surprised that Rodgers didn't upgrade in midfield because I feel that the success of his way of playing is essential on a strong, cultured midfield that can control games. Furthermore and more importantly, good Liverpool teams have always had a strong midfield. That's always been part of our identity.

The lack of guile and control in midfield was evident against Norwich and my biggest fear is that it'll be a perennial issue through the season. Unfortunately, I don't think Henderson coming back will help in many ways. I think he will definitely add some much needed steel and leadership right off the back but I doubt we'll be able to control games any better. Funnily, I think Allen will probably help us the most in that department but I think that says more about the current state of our midfield rather than the qualities of Allen. So although the re-introduction of Sturridge has already ended up changing our structure and the number of chances we created increased, I am doubtful that'll we will reach a point where we'll really begin to dominate teams and put them to sword. That is my biggest worry and it's been the case since before the season. I really hope that Rodgers can find a solution because to me, none of current midfielders seem up to the job.

Last point I want to make is the distinct lack of identity in the team currently. Of course there are new players that are bedding in and it was never going to be rosy. But what shocks me is that we really don't seem to have a good idea of how to play the players that we pursued this summer and seem to be our "priority" signings of the summer. Benteke is the obvious case in point. I think everyone can agree that he's a good player and has many more tools in his locker than most gave him credit for. But we seem to be completely lost in figuring out how to utilize him best for the efficacy of the team. Benteke aside, I've been more surprised with how Firmino has fared so far. Now, the manager is not completely to blame as I'm sure the players have to take some responsibility but there needs to be solutions found quickly because at this moment, more similarities can be drawn to our last season of play rather than 2013-14.

This is looking like a tough season to be honest. Although I imagine we will definitely improve as the season goes on, there seems to be some very fundamental issues both in player personnel and management that won't allow us to compete at the level we should be competing in.

[Pheeny]

Managed to get over for the game,we showed some glimpses of what we are capable of but far to often attacking their left was ruled out.

Even at half time the only part of the pitch that was watered was our left.

As for the Boos yes there was some but they were by far in the minority.

[Penfold78]

 Humans can be dumb when we work in packs. It's true. In fact it has been proven many times. Listen to this: a psychology lecturer asks the right-hand side of the room to stay behind for two minutes after the lecture. He says 157. That's all you need to remember for the next class. When I give the nod just say 157. Ok? Ok. Next class. He gets everyone on their feet and lines them up in a big line. The students sitting on the right hand side of the class at the front (everyone always sits in the same place). The left hand side towards the back. He asks what's 12 x 13? Quick, no conferring guys, and don't say your answer until I ask you. He asks the guy at the head of the line. He says 157. So does the next student, and the next and the next. But you were expecting that, right? Because they were in on the trick. So now we get half way down the line to the section of students not in on the trick. What does the first student in this group say? 157. Even though they know, almost certainly, that is the wrong answer. Remarkably the next student says 157 and the next and so on. To the end of the line.
 
 Why? Because we are programmed, we have evolved, to think and act as a group because that is where protection is. And this trait, despite it being tens of thousands of years since we left the jungle, is still so prevalent in our minds that it overrules logic, evidence and reasoning.

 So it is not a surprise that a lot of people are saying they don't understand what Rogers is doing. What his best formation is, and what his philosophy is. Someone else said it. It sounds safe to say it yourself. Even sports journalists and radio pundits are in on it now. Twitter feeds this behaviour so, so well.

 Let's remind ourselves of the evidence before we dive in. Swansea AFC 2011/2012. They played 37 league games in a 433. One game, number 36, as a 343. They deployed pacey fullbacks to support the attack and add width to the midfield. They had two extremely skill full and creative wide attackers, and central forward with physical presence to act a focal point, three midfields all of whom were highly dynamic, one of whom (Allen) was deployed as a link man. At least one of the other midfielders was expected to support the attack and add to the goal tally. They played attractive, on the ground, possession-based football, working at pace on the counter attack. There was a keeper, Vorm, who was comfortable on the ball and decent at goal keeping too. They drew with us at Anfield and beasted us at the Liberty Stadium. We couldn't get the ball for the first 45 minutes.

 Now let's look at how we are setting up for most games. We are slowly growing a collection of pacey full backs who bomb up and down and add width to our attacks. We are collecting highly technical wide attackers who can come inside to release shots or fire in crosses. We have a physical focal point to our attack. We have a pair of very dynamic central midfielders, and we occasionally deploy Allen as a link player between the central defenders and the rest of the team. Granted, we have a keeper who has a phobia of the ball but he's a decent shot stopper and his save against Norwich at 1-1 shouldn't go unreported or under appreciated.

The rest is work in progress and a collection of issues such as long term injuries, the ability of new players to communicate in the same language as the rest of the team, legacy players and botched transfers means that Rogers is not playing with perfect ingredients yet. But it's blatantly obvious to me where he is heading and I will give him time. Lots of time. Because I think that there is no magic wand our there.

 If you have evidence that there is a magic wand, let us see it.

 157.

 

[killer-heels]

Its all about opinions Penfold but i disagree on the summation of what we are gathering. Do we have wide players who come inside and fire in shots and crosses? If so then who are they then? Are our midfielders that dynamic? How does our physical front man combine in the Swansea way when we have Sturridge, Firmino and Coutinho?

[El Lobo]

It doesn't appear he's going anywhere fast so we have to pray that he continues with this idea of picking players in the correct position and dropping the under performers.

The back four should pick itself now. Clyne clearly, Sakho clearly, Moreno clearly and Skrtel because there's not really anyone else. The central midfield for now should be Lucas plus 2. If that's Allen and Can, so be it. Milner is gash there. He's a class player but this idea that he's been promised to play in CM is lunacy. He's not up to it. It'll probably end up meaning we leave two of Milner/Coutinho/Sturridge/Benteke/Firmino on the bench but surely that's what you want from your bench. Quality.

If we keep that up it shouldn't be long before a moral boosting win, and we'll end up smashing someone. I've no doubt we're capable and the performance was pretty good but the frustration of his whole time here is that there's no doubt after a few games we'll start hearing how it was only a matter of time, he'll change it when he doesn't need to and it'll be back to square one. With this squad this management malarkey really should be this difficult.

[John C]

There's a fundamental disconnect here, one Rodgers needs to resolve to retain his job.

Well observed mate, but I would say that because I'm feeling less of the positives than some others are feeling. I actually text part of your post above about "risk taking" to 2 of my mates on the way to the Norwich game. I excepted completely the Bordeaux result, I posted so on numerous occasions on Thursday evening. But I felt, and those around me felt the Norwich first half was slow, cagey, unadventurous and lacked that risk taking promised. They played in 3rd gear and it was only going in to overdrive if Norwich scored.
Those feeling positive can point towards the chances created and missed, but I'm not inclined to stack up the 'what ifs' after the last 3 league games.
They've disappointed me as much as Villa at Wembley and Stoke away last year. I know people can ask me to contextualise the Norwich game but it works in reverse. After the game I stated that we'd conceded a player higher up the pitch by having 3 at the back - under the circumstances with them playing 1 up front & us having Lucas, both Clyne & Moreno could easily have roamed forward with 2 cb's.

I'm unimpressed, but I'm not calling for Brendan's head, although I'd understand if FSG did, this could quite as easily flip and the good footballers that we have could finally ply their trade with a vastly improved output. The next 2 games are important, we have an opportunity to show to Villa we're not their mugs anymore and the ensure Everton know their place. Both tough fixtures, but which we should be equipped and prepared for!

[Garcepticon]

I put this in the post-match thread but I´ll add it again to avoid repeating myself.

There are a lot of things about Liverpool that concern me at the moment. Hinesy hit the nail on the head about leadership. There is just none in the team whatsoever, bar maybe Lucas & Sakho. I also worry that Rodgers doesn´t take much consideration of who he is facing. He seems to just keep things as they are game to game until poor performances or injuries/suspensions force a change, as mentioned in my rant above.

I´m also worried that pretty much every shot from inside our box seems to result in a goal. Or should I say, every shot on target? I don´t think Mignolet could do much about many of the goals. Then again, we have a supposed top tier goalkeeper so maybe even some of the world class saves we got accustomed to seeing De Gea, Courtois or even Bryan bloody Gunn make would have made a difference to our season so far.

The only players who impressed me yesterday were Sakho (yet had some dodgy moments), Lucas (ran out of steam) and Moreno. Everyone else had a poor-average game.

When your entire squad appears off form, you are badly lacking leadership, almost every shot on target results in a goal conceeded, the oppo goalkeeper pulls out a few worldy saves - where and how do you apportion blame? I could reasonably say we created enough chances to have beaten them by 3 or 4. I can also honestly say that had we done so, I think I would still feel exactly the same way about Rodgers and Liverpool right now too.

Excellent set of thought provoking posts.

Leadership comes first from the manager. Second from your captain. Third from experienced players Fourth from natural leaders - Carragher.

1, Rodgers doesn't have a vision of how we should play, so how can he lead? 2, Henderson isn't on the pitch and won't be for a while. 3, our experiences pros are Martin Skrtel and Lucas if he gets minutes. 4, our natural leaders aren't established because they rarely get consistent runs of games.

That is my analysis of the sources of leadership and briefly why we haven't got any.

To link your post to mine, Rodgers keeps changing formations etc. As a result, it is going to be really hard for James Milner to lead the team when he is focusing on how to play his position (which is changing month to month).

And to summarise the ultimate fundamental flaw. We have no DoF. It all flows from this.

No DoF>no fixed philosophy which supersedes the manager> greater switching between philosophies> a greater state of flux as to what we demand of our players> players take longer to settle > players spend less time focusing on leadership because they have to focus on learning new roles and ultimately look after their own position before others.

If we had a DoF, we would have a set way of playing and set player profiles. Our players could then settle quicker and focus on leading instead of learning new systems.

[ShayGuevara]

I'll add my post in the morning when I have a bit more time but just to reply to the last post.

"Rodgers doesn't have a vision of how we should play"

Seriously.. The manager of one of the biggest football clubs at the very top level of world football doesn't have a vision of how he wants us to play? Are people really that naive? I've seen posts like this quite regular of late. These are the same fans that are putting pressure on the club through negativity in the hope the club will sack this man. They don't even understand the game and because they don't see what Rodgers is trying to do that must mean Rodgers himself doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm not trying to belittle your post Garception, I'm just highlighting how naive people seem to be. Almost like they know better than the manager, that's simply madness.

There are issues that are becoming clear, defensively especially but don't think for one second Rodgers hasn't a clue what he is doing. The problem is it's just not going too well and maybe his philosophy is flawed. Time will tell.

[BabuYagu]

I'll add my post in the morning when I have a bit more time but just to reply to the last post.

"Rodgers doesn't have a vision of how we should play"

Seriously.. The manager of one of the biggest football clubs at the very top level of world football doesn't have a vision of how he wants us to play? Are people really that naive? I've seen posts like this quite regular of late. These are the same fans that are putting pressure on the club through negativity in the hope the club will sack this man. They don't even understand the game and because they don't see what Rodgers is trying to do that must mean Rodgers himself doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm not trying to belittle your post Garception, I'm just highlighting how naive people seem to be. Almost like they know better than the manager, that's simply madness.

There are issues that are becoming clear, defensively especially but don't think for one second Rodgers hasn't a clue what he is doing. The problem is it's just not going too well and maybe his philosophy is flawed. Time will tell.

I will flip the question around then Shay. What is Rodgers vision of how we should play? Most importantly - are we seeing it?

I think Rodgers does have a clear vision of how we should play. He has talked about it at length. Many top football writers including the likes of Paul Tomkins have written articles about it recently. Importantly though - we are not seeing it at the moment. We are seeing almost the polar opposite of what his vision is. There is a fantastic article about it on the Tomkins Times site from one of their writers which opens with

Poor old Brendan is suffering death by football – but not his football. Instead, a football that goes against his blood. A football that he’s not very good at. A football he’s been cowed into playing in fear of his job, submitting to all those shrill voices shrieking “You cannot win Brendan’s way.”

That pretty much nails it for me. Hopefully the Norwich game was the first step away from what we have seen so far this season which has been selections, a system and a style of football that is suffocating us.

Likewise, I´ll add properly to what Garception and others said tomorrow as it´s early am here.