Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC

[blert596]

Hmmm.  I have 2 questions over what Sakho is doing.  Why has Sakho, who is in the best position to see along the back line, decided that he is going to hold (a lone) line a yard further forward than any of the others. He can see along the line clearly, and an earlier screenshot shows him with his arm parallel to his position. However, this is not seen/ignored by the rest of the defensive line, so Sakho should compensate for this by "joining in" with the rest. If his starting position had been a yard further back he might have reached the ball, might have drew a foul from whatever his name was instead of being on the back foot and blocked, or even done just enough to put pressure on the header.

Ignoring Skrtels lunge towards our goal (weve been doing this for years as a matter of course btw), Sakho was still in a very bad position in relation to the rest of the defence and their TWO attackers.

The next point is the 2 against one at the back. Now we know someone obviously didnt pick up someone, that much is obvious. However, Sakho must have been aware that he had 2 men - so why isnt he screaming at someone (Sterling) to pick up a man?

So realistically, despite all the hang Skrtel claims, as proven by the pictures, Skrtels movement had no impact on the goal.

To me, Sakho takes a lot of responsibility for the goal. Poor positioning... and more importantly (if he was organising the line) for a lack of communication in doing that, and a lack of communication in allowing himself to be isolated against 2 players.

Apart from that I thought he was boss!

[PhaseOfPlay]

Hmmm.  I have 2 questions over what Sakho is doing.  Why has Sakho, who is in the best position to see along the back line, decided that he is going to hold (a lone) line a yard further forward than any of the others. He can see along the line clearly, and an earlier screenshot shows him with his arm parallel to his position. However, this is not seen/ignored by the rest of the defensive line, so Sakho should compensate for this by "joining in" with the rest. If his starting position had been a yard further back he might have reached the ball, might have drew a foul from whatever his name was instead of being on the back foot and blocked, or even done just enough to put pressure on the header.

Ignoring Skrtels lunge towards our goal (weve been doing this for years as a matter of course btw), Sakho was still in a very bad position in relation to the rest of the defence and their TWO attackers.

The next point is the 2 against one at the back. Now we know someone obviously didnt pick up someone, that much is obvious. However, Sakho must have been aware that he had 2 men - so why isnt he screaming at someone (Sterling) to pick up a man?

So realistically, despite all the hang Skrtel claims, as proven by the pictures, Skrtels movement had no impact on the goal.

To me, Sakho takes a lot of responsibility for the goal. Poor positioning... and more importantly (if he was organising the line) for a lack of communication in doing that, and a lack of communication in allowing himself to be isolated against 2 players.

Apart from that I thought he was boss!

Sakho was in the right. If we'd agreed beforehand to do this, then it was up to everyone else to comply, not just Sakho. Otherwise, why should we pass the ball if 2 or 3 players want to lump it forward every time it's at their feet?

When Rodgers looks at that, Sakho is not going to be in the firing line for that goal.

[blert596]

Surely then Rodgers will put himself in the firing line. As apart from Sakho, nobody else held Sakhos line. 

I tend to disagree that had Skrtel not moved then we'd have got an offside decision based on where the ball went and the linesmans ability/confidence in flagging a tight offside decision in an area that the ball went nowhere near.  Interfering with play by not allowing an offside trap to work, while away from the ball is very seldom called.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Surely then Rodgers will put himself in the firing line. As apart from Sakho, nobody else held Sakhos line. 

I tend to disagree that had Skrtel not moved then we'd have got an offside decision based on where the ball went and the linesmans ability/confidence in flagging a tight offside decision in an area that the ball went nowhere near.  Interfering with play by not allowing an offside trap to work, while away from the ball is very seldom called.

Had Skrtel not moved, it's very possible we would have got the call, because Cardiff did move. The assistant ref then has to make a split second call across the line of sight as to who is offside, and how they are about to impact play - all as the ball and players are moving. He can't wait to see play develop, and then call it back if it's a goal/no goal. He has to call it as he sees it. That's why the Suarez goal was disallowed against Everton last season - too much stimulus for the assistant ref to handle. The offside trap relies, in a minor way, on this confusion. That's why, as I said, you will see and hear appeals to the ref - not to tell the ref they made a bad decision, but to alert the ref IN PROGRESS as to what decision he should be making.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

/snip

I am assuming we intended on playing the offside trap by marking the players man-to-man. And thats where I think Skrtel/Sakho/Mignolet should have done better. Let me elaborate more on why.

Skrtel. I think your post illustrates it. Skrtel should have stayed back. Fair point. In him lies 50% the blame.

Sakho. Mignolet. Spacial awareness about where you are, where your opponents are around you and what they are doing, requires discipline, tactical awareness and communication. Sakho was probably organising the line to setup for a offside trap. But he should have known that there was an unmarked man behind him. Same goes to Mignolet. In fact, the blame lies more with Mignolet than Sakho. Mignolet has the complete view from the back, and he should have indicated that Mutch was unmarked. Again, communication. Or rather the lack of it.

[BreakfastPercy]

You're assuming we're man-to-man marking, though? If we were supposed to play an offside trap (which the ranting and hand signals of Sakho while the free kick was being prepared would suggest), then nobody is really marking anybody - they keep an eye on them, but the key is to keep squeezing, hold the line on the kick, and step out. The line is being made and players have to be seen, but nobody is really supposed to mark anybody. Which again, tells me that we don't work on these things in training, because confusions such as that are easily cleared up after a few reps.

A fair assumption though?

Rodgers said this in September:

‘I felt coming in last year that we conceded some goals man-to-man so we went to zonal defending. But I prefer giving players responsibility so that everyone knows who they mark. Now it’s purely man to man."

[PhaseOfPlay]

A fair assumption though?

Rodgers said this in September:

‘I felt coming in last year that we conceded some goals man-to-man so we went to zonal defending. But I prefer giving players responsibility so that everyone knows who they mark. Now it’s purely man to man."

It's a fair assumption, but we still conceded goals, so it's also a fair assumption that we might have changed back, I think? The key for me is how Sakho is acting. He's not telling players to get tight on their men. He's not demanding that Sterling or someone gets to one of the two players near him. In fact, that seems to be the least of anyone's worries. It appears that he is trying to get the line tight and straight. This, coupled with the lack of actual man-marking, suggests zonal defending again, and some sort of plan to play an offside trap. And again, just tells me that we don't work on these things in training with actual repetitions, because disorganisation like this would be noticed on the second rep.

[blert596]

So lets assume that we dont get the call - which has an equal chance of happening.  Then Sakho is still poorly positioned relative to the other players - he hasn't pushed out. He has basically stood still completely out of position, as he can clearly see that the others, Skrtel included, are all playing a yard behind him. Now, IMO, he has to align with them or get them to align with him. Achieving neither of these is poor at best, negligent at the worse.

Also as far as cause and effect is concerned, 2 against one at the back doesnt happen if Sakho orders someone across. There's no free header and maybe no goal. Or maybe Skrtels drop means he helps block a pressurised header.

For me anyway, and I know there's a myriad or could/shoulda/woulda scenarios after the ball is kicked, whoever allowed a 2 v 1 situation at the back is more to blame than pinning our hopes on the whim of a linesman.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I am assuming we intended on playing the offside trap by marking the players man-to-man. And thats where I think Skrtel/Sakho/Mignolet should have done better. Let me elaborate more on why.

Skrtel. I think your post illustrates it. Skrtel should have stayed back. Fair point. In him lies 50% the blame.

Sakho. Mignolet. Spacial awareness about where you are, where your opponents are around you and what they are doing, requires discipline, tactical awareness and communication. Sakho was probably organising the line to setup for a offside trap. But he should have known that there was an unmarked man behind him. Same goes to Mignolet. In fact, the blame lies more with Mignolet than Sakho. Mignolet has the complete view from the back, and he should have indicated that Mutch was unmarked. Again, communication. Or rather the lack of it.

You don't man-mark on an offside trap, unless you play a sweeper. Offside traps are mostly zonal, and you need the covering free defender to step up and force the trap. Which makes it a zonal line in any case. Man-marking and offside traps are mostly mutually exclusive.

[PhaseOfPlay]

So lets assume that we dont get the call - which has an equal chance of happening.  Then Sakho is still poorly positioned relative to the other players - he hasn't pushed out. He has basically stood still completely out of position, as he can clearly see that the others, Skrtel included, are all playing a yard behind him. Now, IMO, he has to align with them or get them to align with him. Achieving neither of these is poor at best, negligent at the worse.

Also as far as cause and effect is concerned, 2 against one at the back doesnt happen if Sakho orders someone across. There's no free header and maybe no goal. Or maybe Skrtels drop means he helps block a pressurised header.

For me anyway, and I know there's a myriad or could/shoulda/woulda scenarios after the ball is kicked, whoever allowed a 2 v 1 situation at the back is more to blame than pinning our hopes on the whim of a linesman.

2v1 isn't an issue on an offside trap. Organisation and timing are the critical factors. You can have 11 attackers versus 1 defender and the defender could run a clockwork offside trap. In fact, Gerard Houllier demonstrated that brilliantly at a coaching course in a 6v1 game. Sacchi did the same in a 10v6 game with Milan. If you're worrying about numbers, then you're not understanding how the offside trap works.

[BreakfastPercy]

It's a fair assumption, but we still conceded goals, so it's also a fair assumption that we might have changed back, I think? The key for me is how Sakho is acting. He's not telling players to get tight on their men. He's not demanding that Sterling or someone gets to one of the two players near him. In fact, that seems to be the least of anyone's worries. It appears that he is trying to get the line tight and straight. This, coupled with the lack of actual man-marking, suggests zonal defending again, and some sort of plan to play an offside trap. And again, just tells me that we don't work on these things in training with actual repetitions, because disorganisation like this would be noticed on the second rep.

Yeah that makes sense to me.

I read this the other day actually as people were on about hiring a 'defense coach' (again!) and Steve Bould at Arsenal was the closest I could think to anything approaching the idea:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9544464/Steve-Bould-helps-Arsenal-rediscover-defensive-backbone-of-old-after-taking-on-role-as-Arsene-Wengers-assistant.html

When Adams and Bould were at the peak in the early 1990s, Arsenal won the old League One title in 1990-1 and conceded a miserly 18 goals. Their success was a product of hard work on the training field. “You can take four good defenders but they don’t just become a good unit by accident – it can be repetitive and tedious,” said Adams.

George Graham, then the manager, would stand with his arms outstretched and tell the centre-backs to imagine themselves as his shoulder-blades and the fullbacks as the palms of his hands.

We seem to be fairly well practiced in possession and it's becoming slicker with each game, but we don't look like a well-drilled unit from set-pieces.

[Corkboy]

Nobody marked the scorer. Why are you all talking about offside traps?

They had a two v one at the back of the line. My best guess is the switch of fullbacks had something to do with it.

Other than that, Sterling, Henderson and Allen grow into their roles, Liverpool, Liverpool top of the league, Suarez is adequate, Liverpool, Liverpool, top of the league, Sakho is a monster and.....? Liverpool, Liverpool top of the league.

[Lastrador]

If we were trying to play on offside trap, then Skrtel wasn't the only one confused as none of the other players on the defensive line stepped out to play Cardiff attackers offside. I can understand Sakho and Kelly not doing it as they see Skrtel pullback, but Henderson and Lucas didn't and they never played the trap either. Kind of a mess really.

[blert596]

I'm not worrying about numbers at all really. I'm worried how a man was left with a free header on goal.

And I'm wondering how IF we were playing an offside trap then why one of our players decided he didnt want to, one of them in the best position to see what was going on prior to the kick being taken ignored the fact that he was a yard ahead of everyone and didnt react dynamically to that, and that the rest of the defensive line didnt seem to have a clue exactly what line they should be holding, and probably more importantly where they were meant to hold it. None of them seem to have been looking to Sakho to follow. In which case Skrtel would be the expected player to follow. Which if its the case then Sakho shouldnt have been a yard ahead of the rest of them when the ball was kicked.

To me it reeks of no organisation which you allude to and I agree with. If that was the case then blame cant be put purely on Skrtel for keeping everyone onside - which IMO he doesnt anyway.

If were playing the offside trap there, then theres more at fault than Skrtel dropping prior to the kick even being taken.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Nobody marked the scorer. Why are you all talking about offside traps?

They had a two v one at the back of the line. My best guess is the switch of fullbacks had something to do with it.

Other than that, Sterling, Henderson and Allen grow into their roles, Liverpool, Liverpool top of the league, Suarez is adequate, Liverpool, Liverpool, top of the league, Sakho is a monster and.....? Liverpool, Liverpool top of the league.

For the same reason that people talk when nobody marks the scorer in zonal defending.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I'm not worrying about numbers at all really. I'm worried how a man was left with a free header on goal.

And I'm wondering how IF we were playing an offside trap then why one of our players decided he didnt want to, one of them in the best position to see what was going on prior to the kick being taken ignored the fact that he was a yard ahead of everyone and didnt react dynamically to that, and that the rest of the defensive line didnt seem to have a clue exactly what line they should be holding, and probably more importantly where they were meant to hold it. None of them seem to have been looking to Sakho to follow. In which case Skrtel would be the expected player to follow. Which if its the case then Sakho shouldnt have been a yard ahead of the rest of them when the ball was kicked.

To me it reeks of no organisation which you allude to and I agree with. If that was the case then blame cant be put purely on Skrtel for keeping everyone onside - which IMO he doesnt anyway.

If were playing the offside trap there, then theres more at fault than Skrtel dropping prior to the kick even being taken.

Which is why I said Skrtel holds some liability, but a lot of the liability should go to Rodgers.

[PhaseOfPlay]

If we were trying to play on offside trap, then Skrtel wasn't the only one confused as none of the other players on the defensive line stepped out to play Cardiff attackers offside. I can understand Sakho and Kelly not doing it as they see Skrtel pullback, but Henderson and Lucas didn't and they never played the trap either. Kind of a mess really.

You don't HAVE to step out to play the trap. You can also hold the line and let the other team break the trap for you.

[blert596]

Personally, I've decided to blame whoever said

"Fuck it were 3 nil up and I've always wanted a go at this offside thingymajig. Whos up for it? 

Luc, you in?  Cool!

Hendo, worrabout you? Yeah just follow Luc you'll be allright"

Anyone else? Martin, Martin are yo...oh hang on. They're takin it now?

Oh fer fucks sake Skirts."

[ChaChaMooMoo]

You don't man-mark on an offside trap, unless you play a sweeper. Offside traps are mostly zonal, and you need the covering free defender to step up and force the trap. Which makes it a zonal line in any case. Man-marking and offside traps are mostly mutually exclusive.

No. What I meant was, you mark man to man making the opposition believe that you arent playing the offside trap. And then you move forward playing the trap. Should have been clear on that.

And for that matter, i dont think Offside traps are zonal marking, in a vague sense. If your intention is to move forward, rendering the set piece invalid then it, theoretically, doesn't matter how you mark your opponent.

My qualm against skrtel/sakho/mignolet was that they should have been communicating. Mignolet should have seen the "free" body and sakho should have marked his man. Even if, probably, we were playing it offside.

[PhaseOfPlay]

No. What I meant was, you mark man to man making the opposition believe that you arent playing the offside trap. And then you move forward playing the trap. Should have been clear on that.

And for that matter, i dont think Offside traps are zonal marking, in a vague sense. If your intention is to move forward, rendering the set piece invalid then it, theoretically, doesn't matter how you mark your opponent.

My qualm against skrtel/sakho/mignolet was that they should have been communicating. Mignolet should have seen the "free" body and sakho should have marked his man. Even if, probably, we were playing it offside.

They're not zonal marking - they're zonal defending. There's a slight difference.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Personally, I've decided to blame whoever said

"Fuck it were 3 nil up and I've always wanted a go at this offside thingymajig. Whos up for it? 

Luc, you in?  Cool!

Hendo, worrabout you? Yeah just follow Luc you'll be allright"

Anyone else? Martin, Martin are yo...oh hang on. They're takin it now?

Oh fer fucks sake Skirts."

So Sterling then?

[Lastrador]

You don't HAVE to step out to play the trap. You can also hold the line and let the other team break the trap for you.

You think that was what we tried? I can see Kelly and Sakho going along to that but both Henderson and Lucas were playing most of the Cardiff attackers onside prior to the kick, and afterwards they start to pullback to the goal, so they didn't tried to do either it seems to me.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You think that was what we tried? I can see Kelly and Sakho going along to that but both Henderson and Lucas were playing most of the Cardiff attackers onside prior to the kick, and afterwards they start to pullback to the goal, so they didn't tried to do either it seems to me.

They stepped off before the kick. This is normal in a trap. It's to tempt the other team to push past the line. Then you set back in line and if they remain offside, you get a cheap offside call. If they drop back with the line, then they are moving away from goal as the ball is being delivered. It doesn't matter whether they were onside or offside as the kick was being set up. It matters where they were when the ball was kicked. And at that point, at least one player was offside if Skrtel hadn't moved. Sakho is clearly shouting at them (Henderson and Lucas) to push up to the line. That doesn't mean they were marking - it means they were either setting the trap, or disorganised in what they were supposed to be doing. I think it's a little of both.

[Redeo]

A fair assumption though?

Rodgers said this in September:

‘I felt coming in last year that we conceded some goals man-to-man so we went to zonal defending. But I prefer giving players responsibility so that everyone knows who they mark. Now it’s purely man to man."

It's a fair assumption, but we still conceded goals, so it's also a fair assumption that we might have changed back, I think?

Looking at this picture, the simply answer is that most of the blame must go to Rodgers. They hardly look to be in any sort of concert. To me it looks like confusion all around, which is really surprising given how frequently free kicks are defended. If we're playing an offside trap, how hard it is to be in line. If we're man marking, how hard it is to at least have each of their players covered at the outset.

The more complex answer (and probably closer to the truth) is that we are using a mixed system to defend free kicks: depending on different circumstances (which I do not pretend to know) we sometimes man mark, sometimes use zonal marking, and sometimes rely on the offside trap. Going by the picture, it seems to me players are confused about what to do - some man-marking, some setting up the trap, some zonal marking. A mixed system would probably be the most efficient (once fully implemented), but would also probably take the longest amount of time to master - which could explain the appearance of a relative lack of progress under Rodgers on that front as per BalesofHay. The justification for the system would be over the long term - once the system is mastered, we may truly be impenetrable. To me this would most closely resemble what Rodgers' is all about.

[ElstonGunn]

From @dankennett, this might help color any conclusions from the game:



And from me:

2nd Half Clearances: 25 vs Cardiff - 14 vs Palace
2nd Half Completed Passes: 242 vs Cardiff - 282 vs Palace

The point you and Dan made is well-taken, but couldn't the similarity between the games actually be a pretty strong argument for why Gerrard isn't needed? If we can even crush the bus-parkers without our best distributor, what do we need Gerrard for?

I don't mean that too literally, of course. I think, in particular, we can't expect Suarez to keep scoring at rate higher than Messi did in his best scoring season. Or, said in another way, we can't expect him to keep taking as many shots as Ronaldo with a conversion% like Lewandowski. When he inevitably regresses to merely the best player in the PL, we may be in more need of Gerrard's abilities.

[GrkStav]

So, nobody else thinks that Sakho ought to have:

1. Attempted to leap in order to attempt to meet the ball or (more likely) to be more aggressively man-handled by the one who was clearly instructed to 'block him', thus increasing the chances of the referee calling a foul

or

2. Attempted to "roll out of the pick" (we are taught to slip picks on a regular basis early on in basketball, maybe it's never taught in football, which I've never been formally instructed in) and at least get himself between the two players he was 1vs2 against?

[KopThat]

We played a scintillating first half of football, with 3 quality goals.
Suarez has already started paying back his healthy pay rise.

We seemed to fall apart as soon as Flanagan got taken off, but Rodgers may have told the players to see the game
out with the busy Christmas schedule ahead.

I was waiting for Skrtel to give up a penalty with his man handling and shirt pulling in the box.


Mutch should have been picked up by someone, on this free kick.

I think holding a fairly high line gives the attacking side the advantage, the ball is going to be delivered
between the penalty spot and 6 yard box, meaning the defenders are running backwards and the attackers
are more naturally advancing on the same path as the ball.

I know we are playing an offside trap, but it has fairly low percentages in the modern game.

Moving the line somewhere closer to the penalty spot would give the defenders a better chance.

[BreakfastPercy]

The point you and Dan made is well-taken, but couldn't the similarity between the games actually be a pretty strong argument for why Gerrard isn't needed? If we can even crush the bus-parkers without our best distributor, what do we need Gerrard for?

I don't mean that too literally, of course. I think, in particular, we can't expect Suarez to keep scoring at rate higher than Messi did in his best scoring season. Or, said in another way, we can't expect him to keep taking as many shots as Ronaldo with a conversion% like Lewandowski. When he inevitably regresses to merely the best player in the PL, we may be in more need of Gerrard's abilities.

Don't think so. I could use exactly that logic to ask 'what do we need Coutinho for? Why not play Moses?'

The point is not 'Gerrard is an absolute in our midfield', it's the other side of the argument. It's been said that our 'drop off' against Palace in the second half was because of a lack of legs, specifically Steven Gerrard. Almost number for number the same happens against Cardiff and people are much more keen to believe it's a tactical switch enforced by our Duracell Bunny midfield. The point is- why do two identical second halves, one with Gerrard and one without, both count against him?

[PhaseOfPlay]

So, nobody else thinks that Sakho ought to have:

1. Attempt to leap in order to attempt to meet the ball or (more likely) to be more aggressively man-handled by the one who was clearly instructed to 'block him', thus increasing the chances of the referee calling a foul

or

2. Attempt to "roll out of the pick" (we are taught to slip picks on a regular basis early on in basketball, maybe it's never taught in football, which I've never been formally instructed in) and at least get himself between the two players he was 1vs2 against?

Option 1 could have happened, for sure; but at the same time, he was well screened. Short of pushing his mark out of the way, he was well played by Cardiff.

Option 2 is never really taught, because a screen like that is usually obstruction

[PhaseOfPlay]

Don't think so. I could use exactly that logic to ask 'what do we need Coutinho for? Why not play Moses?'

The point is not 'Gerrard is an absolute in our midfield', it's the other side of the argument. It's been said that our 'drop off' against Palace in the second half was because of a lack of legs, specifically Steven Gerrard. Almost number for number the same happens against Cardiff and people are much more keen to believe it's a tactical switch enforced by our Duracell Bunny midfield. The point is- why do two identical second halves, one with Gerrard and one without, both count against him?

Good points. The issues for Gerrard are more told in specific moments that aren't measured in numbers, rather than general play of the team. But it might be useful to compare Lucas' numbers between the two games, given the impression that Lucas has a greater workload beside an ageing Gerrard than with an energetic Allen and Henderson.

[Juan Loco]

Good points. The issues for Gerrard are more told in specific moments that aren't measured in numbers, rather than general play of the team. But it might be useful to compare Lucas' numbers between the two games, given the impression that Lucas has a greater workload beside an ageing Gerrard than with an energetic Allen and Henderson.

Isn't there the same case that says Gerrard has a far greater workload when alongside Lucas? His performances vs Norwich and West Ham (before he pulled up) indicated he was playing as if he'd been liberated of a burden.

[jooneyisdagod]

Without wanting to further dissect the goal, I wanted to make a point about Joe Allen. BreakfastPercy has picked on it but and has the stats to back it up but since we lost to Hull, Allen came back into the team and while Norwich was the Suarez show and Allen looked nowhere near his best, since the West Ham game, he has really stepped it up and the 20 minutes we saw in the second half against West Ham was some of the best football I had seen in years from a Liverpool side. We absolutely pinned them down and created chance after chance after chance against a side that was working very very hard and unlike Spurs did not indulge in suicidal defensive lines. And Allen was right in the thick of it. He was every where, winning balls, playing it quick and running with it when he had to and he had an absolutely sensational game. Spurs was the same. The first half of the Cardiff game was the same too. And when Allen looked to be getting a bit tired our game dropped off significantly against Cardiff although that could also be the entire team deciding to take the foot off the gas what with more difficult assignments ahead. Anyway, I think his resurgence has really helped us kick on. From having a frankly turgid midfield, we've now got one filled with mobility and dynamism. While I still think there is more skill and dynamism to be added to the centre of midfield, it is promising how well Joe has played.

And this showed in our sublime first half performance against Cardiff. The goals were great but there was also some fantastic interplay between our players in and around the box that will be forgotten. It's these passages of play that we need to work on being a bit more clinical on. There was one pass fired into Joe Allen who had made a great run that came to him at the mid riffs, hardly the easiest ball to control. It's that final ball that we need to improve on and I'm sure we will.

Coutinho continues to drift between the sublime and the not so sublime this season. His passing is only at 80% of last year's but he has been doing quite well nonetheless. His shooting though is a cause for concern. I get the feeling he is trying too hard at the moment and going for power over placement and that's affected his scoring ability. He does seem to find himself in numerous shooting opportunities at the moment which is testament to his movement and ability to string play together but it would be really great if he could improve his shooting starting with the City game because I can easily see him growing into a 10-15 goals per season player. He gets in the positions and seems to have the composure usually but seems to at the moment lack the confidence leading to him scuffing shots. Similar to Joe Allen in some respects in that he seems to get a nose bleed with the sight of goal. If Brendan can get some ice into their veins, I think we'll see more goals from either player.

On the whole though, we were very good in the first half and tailed off a bit in the second. Cardiff pressed us hard and after an initial period of nerves, we started making inroads past them which led them to drop the pressing and made it easier for us to play our game. This was very encouraging for me and as we get better as a team, I think we'll see this more and more often. Teams might attempt to press us but once we score a goal by playing through it, there game plans will go out the window and play more into our hands. Now on to the City game.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Isn't there the same case that says Gerrard has a far greater workload when alongside Lucas? His performances vs Norwich and West Ham (before he pulled up) indicated he was playing as if he'd been liberated of a burden.

No, don't be ridiculous

Seriously though, yes. Which kind of creates a "Hart to Hart" conundrum for the two of them. One of them with the other two (Henderson and Allen), though, might mitigate the weaknesses of either

[ElstonGunn]

Don't think so. I could use exactly that logic to ask 'what do we need Coutinho for? Why not play Moses?'

Well, it's not the same. Sure, if you used absolutely no context. But it's obvious you'd rather have Coutinho than Moses, whether against bus parkers or the best because we all have eyes. The strongest argument for Gerrard's continuing importance IMO is that his passing is still needed in games where we know we're going to have the lion share of possession. If we're just as creative without him, then that argument doesn't look as strong.

Of course, it's just one game, so doesn't mean much, if anything. But it's something to keep looking out for IMO.

The point is not 'Gerrard is an absolute in our midfield', it's the other side of the argument. It's been said that our 'drop off' against Palace in the second half was because of a lack of legs, specifically Steven Gerrard. Almost number for number the same happens against Cardiff and people are much more keen to believe it's a tactical switch enforced by our Duracell Bunny midfield. The point is- why do two identical second halves, one with Gerrard and one without, both count against him?

Fair enough, and people making those arguments are a bit ridiculous. I thought it was pretty obvious in both games that we just ran out the string deliberately in the last half hour, and had little to do with fitness.

[Mr Dilkington]

I think people are missing a fairly obvious, yet simple point regarding Gerrard. He'll be as delighted as we all are at how well we've been playing in his absence, but make no mistake, he'll be out to prove a point when he comes back. It's worked rather nicely all things considered.

[h4ns3n]

I thought we were sublime in attack and defence first half. The only negative is in our defence, with Skrtel's set piece defensive tactics. It's not shirt pulling, he's actually holding the opposition down and preventing the opponent from getting at the ball in the air. I'm not sure how much longer he's going to get away with that but it is going to cost us a penalty sooner rather than later.

I know Kompany et al do the same (Rio Ferdinand mastered the "technique") but it is a foul no matter how you look at it.

In terms of the goal, I think a combination of complacency, underestimating the opposition and perhaps attempting an offside trap cost us that goal, but it was the wake up call we needed because there were not many chances given way from that point onwards. We seemed in total control after their goal.

[woof]

Teams like Cardiff take what you give them. Like most of the Premier League, they simply don’t have the quality of player to go to a tough away ground and dictate the play. Sure, they can drag you down to their level, but only if you let them. Too often in the past, Liverpool have let teams like them do exactly that instead of making them play at theirs for a prolonged period so that, ultimately, class will eventually tell. Today, Cardiff started off more positively than a lot of teams that come to Anfield, but how they were going to play and how much of a threat they were going to pose over the 90 minutes was ultimately going to be established by how Liverpool played. And for an hour today, they simply couldn’t live with the passing, tempo and movement of the home side.

One of the things that I’m increasingly loving about Rodgers’ team is that they give the likes of Cardiff very little, they make them play at their level (what is it that Bob Paisley once said about the ‘This Is Anfield, sign, there are more bad teams than good?) As with the West Ham game a couple of weeks back, there was a spell after they scored that was more nervy than it should have been given that Liverpool had taken a 3-0 lead into half-time and were cruising, and there’s certainly plenty of tuning to be done at the back, particularly on set-pieces, that much is obvious. Aside from that, though, Liverpool largely made this game look easy in a way that we’re not used to seeing against the teams that come and defend in numbers. You arguably have to go back to Kenny Dalglish’s first spell in charge to find a Liverpool side that swatted these kinds of teams aside with this kind of ease, no need to panic, no need to change anything, just keep the ball moving and the goals will come. The Fulham’s, the West Ham’s, the Cardiff’s, the West Brom’s, these teams are increasingly helpless against a relentless, all-encompassing, lightning-fast Red tide that simply engulfs them and doesn’t allow them to get a solid footing in the game. And it’s one of the primary reasons why Liverpool have a shot of being top of the table at Christmas.

That’s a general observation out of the way. In terms of specifics, I thought Sakho was absolutely brilliant today, as he has been since his return to the side. He has my complete faith in every aspect of his game and looks like he may even develop into a snip at £17m. Henderson has also been magnificent of late. It’s as if someone has found a switch and just flipped it. Allen, despite some frustrating wastefulness in the final third, was also superb for the third game in a row, and Suárez simply defies description at this stage. When the third went in, I just laughed. We’re so lucky to have him, and rather than try and come up with new superlatives that will only fall short, I’ll link to something I wrote a year ago. Every word of this still holds true.

Well said.
In the previous season, there was a fragility in our play as soon as we conceded a goal. The opposition and the fans could smell it. But not this season. We're demonstrating we're tougher and definitely more ruthless in front of goal after the fifth or sixth game. With Suarez back and committing his future to the club (up to 2018 on paper but we know it could be till the end of this season), we have a scoring machine together with Sturridge.

This confidence and pomp have also help the once maligned players to blossom. Just look at Hendo now. He's playing on a different level and can get better. He runs funny, eh? With Sakho in central defence and Mignolet at goal, we now have a strong defence spine. Sure, we're 2-3 players away from being a really awesome team but we're making good strides to get there.

[woof]

Coutinho continues to drift between the sublime and the not so sublime this season. His passing is only at 80% of last year's but he has been doing quite well nonetheless. His shooting though is a cause for concern. I get the feeling he is trying too hard at the moment and going for power over placement and that's affected his scoring ability.

I don't think that's a real concern. Good players will keep at it during practice until they get it right. Just as long as he's doing the creating for his team mates, that's what we really want out of him at the moment. The way he reads the game and dissects the defence with his passes is just a joy to watch

[jooneyisdagod]

I don't think that's a real concern. Good players will keep at it during practice until they get it right. Just as long as he's doing the creating for his team mates, that's what we really want out of him at the moment. The way he reads the game and dissects the defence with his passes is just a joy to watch

Absolutely. Coutinho will be in my team 10 times out of 10. He is marvellous and adds so much to our play. But we need to get more goals from him. Suarez is at the moment on course to break Messi's record for the most goals in a season BUT on 5 games less. Now, I honestly don't expect him to score 52 league goals in a season and there will most likely be a drop off in his goal scoring and someone else needs to chip in with a goal here and a goal there. Coutinho by virtue of being in an advanced position is one of those we need to have chipping in with a couple here and there. And hopefully he can too. He is getting into the positions now. Just need for him to work things out in his head.

[Fluke]

You don't HAVE to step out to play the trap. You can also hold the line and let the other team break the trap for you.

Have to say I disagree with this.

If Skrtel holds the line, the free man is still on-side and you're effectively saying that we 'might' get an incorrect call in our favour.  Somehow that is Skrtel's fault (even partially)?

If you were saying that he was out of position and should've been marking one of the two on the back post, I could understand.  But to say the blame is at his feet for dropping... I don't buy it.

For me, this just screams dis-organisation.  Whether some of the near post defenders (Lucas or Allen who were free) needed to come across, Skrtel needed to move over, Sterling needed to drop, or Sakho/Mignolet needed to be telling any of the previous to be doing that; none of that is on Skrtel dropping for me.