Topic: Watch: John Power singing Poor Scouser Tommy

[shanklyboy]

oh, i got it now.

the party's only starting, the party's only starting lmoa 

Was it from the late 70s?
That will be aimed at Gerald  Sinstadt after the famous 'The party's over' incident.

[Belmont Road]

Cracking fella.

Lives between Liverpool and London now. Watched the Man Utd game (4-1) in the same boozer as him and some other scousers in Stoke Newington (The Auld Shillelagh if you know the area - best pint of Guinness in London). The lads invited me and me mate to go out bevying with them afterwards to celebrate. Absolute highlight was us singing FOAR in the boozer and we stopped after the last chorus. John carried on singing in that haunting voice of his with the new verse he and Pete Hooton wrote. No-one had heard the words before. The whole beer garden stood still listening to them words ringing out. The happiest/saddest I have ever been.

Proper scouser, casual as fuck, top lad. Gonna try and get tickets to see Cast now on eBay!

[davenorthwales]

Was it from the late 70s?
That will be aimed at Gerald  Sinstadt after the famous 'The party's over' incident.

it was chanted after liverpools 4 th goal and just before the 5th, october 1978 .. gerald sindstadt was the commentator

[davenorthwales]

jeez google don't half hang about lol... i typed in gerald sindstadt party's over incident, and your 'That will be aimed at Gerald  Sinstadt after the famous 'The party's over' incident'. is the first on top

just been reading some site with quotes... amusing. think i'll use one as my sig

[Crosby Nick]

Although in North Africa, Libya is an Arab country isn't it? So therefore Libya could still count as being under Arabian sun? Or does that show a lot of ignorance?!

[davenorthwales]

ah right. the party over was after the forest away game cos itv had the highlights and bbc had the 2nd leg..  see what you mean now.

i thought peter brackley was the itv commentator at forest??  that sounds a bit nasty itv playing the sinatra song the party's over on tv in the first leg highlights

[davenorthwales]

hugh johns was at forest

[shanklyboy]

ah right. the party over was after the forest away game cos itv had the highlights and bbc had the 2nd leg..  see what you mean now.

i thought peter brackley was the itv commentator at forest??  that sounds a bit nasty itv playing the sinatra song the party's over on tv in the first leg highlights

No it wasn't the Forest game, it was a league game......can't remember which one off the top of my head but it was shown on the Sunday and they played the song at the end of the pogramme while showing us getting beat.

That caused the famous Dalglish incident when Sinstadt was interviewing Kenny after we'd won.
Kenny was holding one of his kids (might have been Kelly) and he said to her " Ask him how the parties going now"

[davenorthwales]

since only 7 games were lost throughout the 78-79 season, i can't think what it was referring to as google search seems to suggest it was down to the forest game. man utd fa cup didn't come til march, villa away in april, bristol city in november, everton was not long after the derby co win.. and the infamous arsenal brawl. 
the first defeat was away to sheff united in the league cup a few days after the spurs 7-0.

saying that, i was watching something a few weeks ago and i'm sure kenny was holding kelly in an interview. i don't know what that was about and i'm not even sure what i watched ...  tsk, i can't remember but it seems strange i can remember 30 years ago 

hmm, i had a look and remember what i watched but drawn a blank..

[davenorthwales]

ah, it could well be the dvd i ws on about a while back here.. liverpool greatest managers.  that sounds more obvious but i can't say it was referring to gerald sinstadt at all.

[davenorthwales]

i just been reading that sinstadt took the flak for it. the notts forest v liverpool game was covered by itv - probably itv central would have had it.
i'm not sure what the programme kick off was .. apparently it was the producer who came up with the party over tune and the party's over phrase. and the producer is a familiar name.. how odd.

the TV commentator Gerald Sinstadt declaring “the party’s over for Liverpool’’ after the 1978 European Cup defeat to Nottingham Forest. Granada even used Frank Sinatra’s “The Party’s Over’’ as the theme tune.

[kesey]

A "higher" division?

Knowing John as I do he was most probably stoned.

[davenorthwales]

i didn't have much time today to go browsing. i had a quick nosy and there is a piece in liverpoolway, which is quite fascinating.

i had  a recall earlier when i had my two minutes worth.. sounds ridiculous  i was watching neighbours (lol) after work having my tea.  in it, they were having a talent show or something in that bar they got. must have been around 1991. anyway, harold bishop was having a fit because a character called faye had a go at singing all dressed up a bit berlesque.. and started singing this song. the first thing i thought aaaaahhhhh i know that song. that's liverpools song. she was singing red river valley.  i had no idea of the origins of the song at all, even from 1980ish.

come the year 2001-2002, i still had no idea of the origins, until i started looking it up on the internet when i started learning computing.  my first project in 2001 was liverpool.  i found red river valley and printed off the lyrics cos on a saturday night. there was a bit of a sing-a-long at the end of the night in the club.. for a while i was a bit shy to ask, so i asked someone i knew if he new this song red river.. and to my amazement, he started singing from this valley i know you are leaving...... i was in awe, in shock lol.. the others didn't like it so we had our own duo now and then..  then one night, i decided to do liverpools version.

in the bright redhawk valley appeared after red river valley so it cannot be the original. and that was in the 19th century

[davenorthwales]

from this valley i know you are leaving,
we will miss your bright eyes and seet smile,
for they say you are taking the sunshine,
that has brightened our path for a while.

come and sit by my side if you love me,
do not hasten to bid me adieu,
just remember the red river valley,
and the one that has loved you so true.

won't you think of the valley you are leaving,
how lonely, how sad it will be,
think of the fond heart you are breaking,
and the grief you are causing to me.

as you go to your home by the ocean,
may you never forget those sweet hours,
that we spent in the red river valley,
and the love we exchanged mid the flowers.


this is what i have from around 1989 ish...

oh i'll tell you a story of a poor boy,
who was sent far away from his home,
to fight for his king and his country,
and also the old folks back home.

so they put him in a higher division,
sent him off to a far foreign land,
where the flies swarm around in their thousand,
and there's nothing to see but the sand.

as the battle was raging next morning,
under the arabian sun.
i remember the poor scouser tommy,
who was shot by an old nazi gun.

as he lay on the battlefield dying,
with the blood rushing out from his head,
as he laid on the batlefield dying.
these were the last words that he said.

oh i am a liverpudlian,
i come from the spion kop,
i like to sing,
i like to shout,
and i get thrown out quite a lot.

i can vaguely remember writing this out as it's been stashed away since.  i'm trying to remember if it was written from what i knew previously, changed a word or two because someone said the correct word.  i always thought it was libyan sun, this contradicts the thought, so whether i ditched libyan for arabian at that time.  somehow, i have got the arabian instead of an arabian.
and as the battle was raging next morning instead of started next morning.
and rushing out of his head instead of gushing or pouring.  higher division is down. whether higher division morphed into highland. or highland morphed into higher then morphed back into highland.  i must have made some sort of draft out as the one i got here has no alterations
and i noticed the word they before sent him off is missing... probably i had previously thought it was 'they sent him off to a far foreign land'.

[davenorthwales]

maybe wikipedia is a bit wrong???

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1498900

in the bright mohawk valley is dated 1986 as a copyrighted sheet music .... hmmm

also, 'most well known is the folk/country standrad red river valley, a song in which a young girl laments that the cowboy she loves will have to leave the valley.  this dates from around 1870 and was first popularized in recorded form in Jules Verne Allen' 1929 version known as the cowboy love song'. 

[davenorthwales]

uh oh..

This collection has a copy of "The Bright Mohawk Valley."
Sam DeVincent Collection of Illustrated American Sheet Music ca. 1790-1890... "Includes "The Bright Mohawk Valley arranged by Nick Manaloff to the tune of "The Red River Valley,"....."

so, red river valley was before bright mohawk after all... at least that's established

http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d5300nh2.htm

[davenorthwales]

bright sherman valley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC_vTbOzLyg

The Bright Sherman Valley
(Robie Kingsley)

From this valley they tell me you're going,
I miss your blue eyes and bright smile.
For you take with you all the sunshine,
That has brightened my path for awhile.

Let's consider a why you are leaving,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu.
But remember the bright Sherman Valley,
And the girl that has loved you so true.

Do you think of the home you are leaving,
Of your parents so kind and so true?
Do you think of the heart you are breaking,
And the girl who has loved you so true?

When I go to my home in the evening,
How sad and how lonely it will be.
I will pray to the Lord to forgive you,
For the trouble you've caused me to see.

I have waited a long time my darling,
For those words that you never would say.
And at last my poor heart is breaking,
For they tell me you're going away..

When you're far from the scenes of the valley,
And they tell me your journey is through.
Will you think of the bright Sherman Valley,
And the girl who has loved you so true.

[davenorthwales]

McFarland & Gardner-The Bright Sherman Valley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgYaxy0Z1PQ

Red River Valley - Will D. Moyer - Will D. Moyer - Wm. J. Smith Music Co., Inc. - 1937
Red River Valley (arr by Harold Potter) - arr by Harold Potter - - Morris Music Co. - 1933
Red River Valley (arr by Nick Manoloff) - Nick Manoloff - Nick Manoloff - Calumet Music Co. - 1935

[davenorthwales]

BRIGHT SHERMAN VALLEY
Red River Valley
Bright Mohawk Valley
By James J. Kerrigan

Oh, they say from this valley you're going
We shall miss your sweet face and bright smile
You will take with you all of the sunshine
That has gladdened our hearts for a while.

I have waited a long time, my darling
For those words that your lips ne'er would say
Now the hope from my heart has departed
And I'm told that you're going away.

For the sake of the past do not leave me
Do not hasten to bid me adieu
Oh! remain in this bright Mohawk Valley
With the fond heart that lives but for you.

Do you think of the valley you're leaving
Oh! how dreary 'twill be when you go
Have you thought of the true heart so lonely
That has loved you and cherished you so.

Tell me not that our lives must be severed
Give me back, love, the smile once so dear
Oh! this valley would lose all its brightness
If its fairest of flow'rs were not here.

Kerrigan returns a date of 1896 for the song. Everyone seems to have a different idea as to whether this was REALLY the original or not.

"a popular song that evolved into a folksong. James Kerrigan wrote a sentimental piece 'Ih the Bright Mohawk Valley' in 1896. Pioneers picked up the song, simplified it and changed the locale to the Texas Panhandle. In Fireside Book of Folksongs, Songfest,Folksong Encyclopedia VI, and Readers' Digest 'Family Song Book."

[davenorthwales]

BRIGHT LAUREL VALLEY

I have waited a long time my darling,
For the word you never would say,
But alas, my poor heart it is breaking,
For they say you are going away.

Then consider a while ere you leave me.
Do not hasten to bid me adieu,
But remember the bright Laurel Valley,
And the girl who has loved you so true.

Bascomb Lamar Lunsford, 1921. He also used the title Sherman Valley (as did a Miss Hardin, 1922)

[davenorthwales]

That ever there could be such a longing,
    In this part of a poor maiden's breast,
For you know that my heart will be breaking,
    As you take the long trai to the West."

"Come and sit by my side, if you love me.
    Do not hasten to bid me Adieu.
Remember the bright Mohawk valley,
    And the maid who has loved you so true."

The context was the Loyalists, the Tories loyal to King George, leaving the German Flats area in New York, after the Declaration of American Independence and @ a year before the battle at nearby Oriskany. Likely a very young English Colonial Tory leaving an Indian girl; heading west towards Niagra and ultimately Canada.

[davenorthwales]

One of the first printed versions of the song appears in sheet music, titled "In the Bright Mohawk Valley," published in New York in 1896 with James J. Kerrigan as the writer. According to folk researcher and collector Carl Sandburg, this song originated as "In the Bright Mohawk Valley" (1896) and became "The Red River Valley" in the western United States and Canada.

IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK VALLEY
Words and music by James J. Kerrigan; New York: Howley, Haviland & Co. Copyright 1896

Oh they say from this valley you're going,
We shall miss your sweet face and bright smile,
You will take with you all the sunshine
That has gladdened our hearts for awhile.

I have waited a long time my darling,
For those words that your lips ne'er would say,
Now the hope from my heart has departed,
And I'm told you're going away.

Chorus:For the sake of the past, do not leave me,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu!
Oh, remain in this bright Mohawk valley,
With the fond heart that lives but for you.

Do you think of the valley you're leaving?
Oh, how dreary 'twill be when you go,
Have you thought of the heart, so lonely,
That has loved you and cherished you so.

Tell me not that our lives must be severed,
Give me back, love, the smile once so dear,
Oh! this valley would lost (sic) all its brightness,
If its fairest of flow'rs were not here.

This is the version that Walker knew from New York. Others including Edith Fowke disagreed that Kerrigan was the author of the song. Her 1964 article "'The Red River Valley' Re-Examined," appeared in Western Folklore 23, p. 163-171 suggested a Canadian origin of "Red River Valley." She offers evidence that the song was known in at least five Canadian provinces before 1896, claiming that the song developed in 1869 at the time of the Red River Rebellion. This finding led to speculation that the song was composed at the time of the Wolseley Expedition to the northern Red River Valley of 1870 in Manitoba. It expresses the sorrow of a local girl or woman (possibly a Métis, meaning of French and aboriginal origin) as her soldier/lover prepares to return to Ontario.

Edith Fowke: "This is probably the best known folk song on the Canadian prairies. --- later research indicates that it was known in at least five Canadian Provinces before 1896, and was probably composed during the Red River rebellion of 1870 ('The Red River Valley Re-examined', Western Folklore, 23, 163). Later versions are short and generalized but the early form told of an Indian or half-breed girl lamenting the departure of her white lover, a soldier who came west with Colonel Wolseley to suppress the first Riel Rebellion. Mrs Fraser's text is very similar to the earliest known versions, and Barbeau gives another traditional version from Calgary in "Come A-Singing."

http://richardmattesonsblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/history-of-song-red-river-valley-part-1.html

http://richardmattesonsblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/red-river-valley-part-2.html

[davenorthwales]

woodie guthrie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM54-ZRd-9k

[davenorthwales]

omg.... 1978

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wRDmmBlX0&feature=related

[davenorthwales]

Of course it comes down to aural tradition and nobody will know (kind of chinese whispers). I heard "higher division" as a boy.

i could swear it was higher division back in 1980... about 9 years later, possibly ten, it was mentioned it was highland.
same as under the libyan / an arabian, the arabian, blazing sun.

[davenorthwales]

'where the flies swam around in the crossroads'

crossroads could well mean the crossroads of great civilisations. or even to some, refers to the holy land.
the crossroads of africa and asia. or should i say near east.. suez canal. nile delta. or even the crossroads between africa and asia.

when the original wording of flies in the crossroads as in mid 1970's verse is used in that context, this is correct. egypt is at this point and with el alamein at the peak of the north, and with 51st highland division being engaged.. they disembarked at the suez canal in 1942.  and moved westwards towards el alamein after cairo.

as arabia was not engaged in activities, and was suppliying usa with oil and was basically neutral.

not forgetting arabia is the peninsula made up of states such as saudi arabia, oman, kuwait.  the syrian desert is also known as the syro-arabian desert but that doesn't really touch egypt and comes as far as jordan.. as the sinai peninsula is adjacent to saudi arabia and seperated by a gulf, no engagements were made as cairo is westwards from here.

which leads back to the obvious - libyan sun... but, in the case of the crossroads, it could still make sense libya is next door on the map with tobruk being about 90 miles from the border, 300 miles from el alamein..

[davenorthwales]

then again, crossroads could mean literally, just a simple crossroad as in road or path.

as the 1970's upload does state arabian sun, the closest point from saudi arabia is about 200 miles from the suez canal and 300 miles.  i cannot find any fatalities on landing at suez which suggest no battle took place here.. it is possible to think that the sinai peninsula was arabia.

like it was said earlier, the same sun was shining on egypt and saudi arabia.. but then again, maybe it morphed into libyan when it was realised.

there had to be a reason why it was arabian sun in the 1976/77 version.. the only person who can really say is the author, or even if anyone else has got a lyric sheet

another way to find out exactly what was happening is if anyone knows someone who remembers it well from the late 60's. or ask around.. there's bound to be someone who knows something somewhere....

[davenorthwales]

I remember the lad that handed them out now, proper Cockney East Endah, know wot I mean guvnor type and it's obvious - and you'll soon spot the line - that he couldn't quite grasp Scouse...

it's only now i seen this bit.  was it at anfield he was handing them out? would you say it's deffo 1977?  the question is, where would he have got it from? if it's his own translation of what he heard and thinks what he heard, it could be unreliable. if it is 100% accurate all the better.  nobody will know for sure until someone else steps forward and shed some light

i'm missing something here lol.... 'and you'll soon spot the line'

[davenorthwales]

woodie guthrie again - jarama valley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORP5-017gKM&feature=related

[davenorthwales]

lol redsnappa, i found your old post 2 years ago..

"Poor Scouser Tommy.It was originally "under the old Libyan sun", almost certain of it, with "under the" rolling together".

Here we go again!

I used to travel up on the train back in the 70's with the London Branch of the LSC and distinctly remember some lad handing out roneo'd sheets with the words to PST.

Now whether he got the words wrong when he typed them out, I can't say, but it was DEFINITELY 'Under the Arabian sun' that we all sang back then.

I may well have that sheet somewhere in the loft at me Mam's with all the programmes, silk scarves, ticket stubs and whatnot. One day I'll sort it all out.

Not that it'll make any difference. The song has been ruined by the speed merchants.

[davenorthwales]

when arabian sun on a sheet, people will sing exactly what is on the sheet whether it was correct or not lol.   

i really can imagine the people who were singing it wrong looking odd at the people who were singing it correctly 

what does roneo'd mean?

[davenorthwales]

so, who wrote the original PST? what's his name? could be a she as far as i'm concerned.

another problem with the 1977 sheet is.... what if the person who was them handing around got it wrong?

if only we could track down the original author. it could be a him, or a her even. so we are looking for someone who is aged 45-65 with a very good memory indeed lmoa.. there is too much info floating about on the under the libyan sun. there has to be something in it.

ask around if anyone knows someone who knows something lmoa

[1021]

It's highland division and thrown out quite a lot.
The Nazi thing makes no sense but I've always sang Nazi gun.
I'm not sure about Arabian/Libyan sun thing, it's about 50/50 from the people I've sat near.

That "Rush scored one thing......" takes momentum out of the song and it just becomes a drone towards the end. And the people should be thrown out for "singing up the bum"

Regardless of the variations, it is a fantastic song and I wish like so many other songs at Anfield we sang it at a proper pace, because it's beauty and the tune it totally lost these days.

[shanklyboy]

It's highland division and thrown out quite a lot.
The Nazi thing makes no sense but I've always sang Nazi gun.
I'm not sure about Arabian/Libyan sun thing, it's about 50/50 from the people I've sat near.

The 51st Highland Division fought against Rommel in the North Africa Campaign.
That encompassed The Western Desert,Egypt and Libya.

[1021]

The 51st Highland Division fought against Rommel in the North Africa Campaign.
That encompassed The Western Desert,Egypt and Libya.

I always been confused by it because it always seemed a muddle of different wars and battles.
Especially with he Spion Kop connection.

But that wraps it up nicely.
So Libyan sun then?

[Yorkykopite]

I always been confused by it because it always seemed a muddle of different wars and battles.
Especially with he Spion Kop connection.

But that wraps it up nicely.
So Libyan sun then?

We should rule out the Battle of Spion Kop since no one questions the 'king and country' bit and Queen Victoria was still on the throne in January 1900. But I can promise no one used to sing 'Libyan' when the song first started. It was all 'radiant' or 'raging' back then.

[Robotforaday]

Tell ya what lads.... a lot of the answers are already here.... on the RAWK archives... I'm still digging, but here's a post from our very own Rushian, back in the mists of time, 2002....

PST - been there sung that. A modern day standard (though sung too fast in the ground). Now been interested in digging out the history of this song for a while to write "The evolution of PST" for raotl.
1, 2, 3, 4 ... The Rush scored 1 etc can be dated easily (though does anyone know who added it and exactly when?)

I am a Liverpudlian - written by Pete "Jig" Daly and dates from the late 60s. Pete descended upon the RAOTL one day last year like a Golden Angel providing the priginal unexpurgiated lyrics - does anyone have a copy (Red in Holland/mb?) - Braces and Boots then filled in a few details about the lad and his antics on the Kop.

Now the first few verses. Seem to have been added in the mid 70s onto the I am a Liverpudlian from what I remember Al Edge saying once - again any further confirmation would be nice.

The tune is Red River Valley. archives.I've done quite a bit of digging on this and have sections on the dispute of whther it is Canadian or American song from the 1860s, I have the first published lyrics from 1890s and also an alternative disputed early version In the Bright Mohawk Valley (which came first the redriver or the mohawk?).

Now how did this American folk tune morph into PST? I have searched and searched on Army/WWII song sites for an original of this without success. I've found a Vietnam version sung by American GIs which is obviously too late.

Someone did suggest it may originate from the spanish civil war - dig a bit further and I hit pay dirt and find a song called Jarama Valley and unearthed a recording by Woodie Guthrie ....

There's a valley in Spain called Jarama / It's a place that we all know so well / It was there that we gave of our manhood / And there that our brave comrades fell

We are proud of the Lincoln Battalion / And the fight for Madrid that we made / Where we fought like true sons of the people / That Fascism never should reign

Now we're leaving this valley of sorrows / And its memories we'll never forget / So before we continue this reunion / Let us stand to our glorious dead

.... Again no striking similarities to PST but the feeling/emotion of this version ties in more with PST than any other clone. It's not hard to imagine Americans who had fought in Spain being billetted alongside British soldiers in WWII and PST evolving from Jarama Valley.

The only problem is I can find no evidence of this. There's a missing link somewhere.

So this is a call to arms. Has anyone any further info? Either on this link, the original Pete Daly post or anything else.

You will get a name check.

cheers
Steve
 

Fantastic bit of historical digging there by Rushian. Interesting to see that he's got a name for the person who wrote the "I am a Liverpudlian" section. I guess there's no clue who wrote the first bit? I know it came later, but that's about all.

[1021]

We should rule out the Battle of Spion Kop since no one questions the 'king and country' bit and Queen Victoria was still on the throne in January 1900. But I can promise no one used to sing 'Libyan' when the song first started. It was all 'radiant' or 'raging' back then.

It is too fucking confusing?
Any idea why so many wars were incorporated?

Sing what you like just don't say "up the bum".

[davenorthwales]

i do like a debate lmoa  .

what i learnt back in the 80s was as it was mentioned earlier, tommy was a nickname for a lancastrian, as liverpool was under lancashire at one time, up until 1974.
on and off since, i occasionally look into it, whether this is accurate or not.

spion kop was boer war 1900 - boers were the dutch south afrikaans.  some football clubs named their terrace stand spion kop or kop in rememberance and commemoration. 

the kop at anfield was an earth mound in 1905. At the end of that season which saw Liverpool lift the second of their league championships the directors at the club decided to reward the loyalty of the fans by building a new brick and cinder banking at the Walton Breck road end of the ground. It was christened as the Spion Kop by Ernest Jones in memory of the many scousers who died in battle over a hill in South Africa by the same name during the Boer War. 
In 1928 The Kop was altered to terracing and a massive roof added to protect the thousands of fans who gathered to watch their beloved team play. Other teams named their stands as the Kop but the one at Anfield was the original.

'....king and his country' - george Vl was the monarch, which ties in with the date of 1942.

[davenorthwales]

'i remember the poor scouser tommy'

one thing doesn't make sense here. if lancastrians were known as tommy, why say i remember poor scouser tommy (lancastrian) in the same phrase. scouser was already a term for a liverpudlian and adds on.  i suppose it's possible using a barrelled nickname.. which goes to assuming tommy was a real name.

when someone says 'i remember poor scouser tommy', that suggests he knew him or even witnessed this.  or maybe some years later, recalling events. 
could it be possible that the author was actually there? or maybe, the author had a relation who was there, or even had read some diary some years later where it was written down.who knows.

maybe it wasn't a relative at all.  whoever wrote it had a reason for it as PST spoke for all.. he wanted to tell the story of a poor boy. the boy amongst many many others sent far away from his home.

maybe, it was the son of a soldier who didn't come home, and some years later he wanted to know who his dad was but never found out, and put pen to paper after asking people when he was older. maybe he was told his dad liked going to the match, and if the author was a supporter himself and had some kind of common interest and connection, and the only way to come to terms was to write a song about his dad that he never knew... it's logical.

unless it was penned by a philanthropist who spoke for all the 'tommys' and poor boys.. you just couldn't make up a story like that and transgress it from the late 60s or early 70s back to 1942  without a reason.

the author could have easily written a song about the lancastrians lost in the boer war as that had a relationship between the ground. a song could easily have been penned regarding world war one and the lancastrians and liverpool folk lost...even though the kop existed before the roof was put up, was the kop more special after the roof went up? felt more sheltered from the elements, a bit more cosier.

if the author was going on the kop in the 60s, say 1963 for example and was 22 years old and knowing his dad never came home, it would have been natural for him to think 'i wonder if my dad felt the same things when he was coming here'?

maybe we will never know the full real story behind it, maybe it will stay in folklore and in our imaginations.  even if tommy is fictional, he feels very real.

god bless scouser tommy, and god bless the author, whoever you are!!