Author Topic: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]  (Read 14992 times)

Offline Aristotle

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Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« on: November 2, 2014, 12:14:25 am »
What can you say after another horrifying performance like that? The template for our games seems to be to play from the back, when we can't, not adjust our midfield when overrun and hope that Balotelli will become Suarez and take a lost hoofball and turn it into magic.
We saw for Skrtel return to the side unannounced for the umpteenth time and like clockwork our passing from the back suffered. Kolo Toure, for all his hick ups is actually very brave in possession. He moves the ball with intent and if the pass doesn't unfold for him, he takes it upon himself to bring it to the nearest red shirt he can find. It might not always come off, but at least the ball is closer to the opposition's goal than ours.

I asked on Twitter whether we could've played more into Newcastle's hands if we'd let Pardew set up both teams before hand. Newcastle's backline likes to drop deep and they like to compete for 50-50 challenges. Coloccini won 3 headers, Taylor won 5 to Balotelli's 1 [Sterling won two, to prove how ineffective it was]. We had one shot at goal the entire first half. It was a header from our center back from a corner. Compared to last season's game at St. James' it's staggering. The only thing we come close to matching up in is possession. Today we had 64% possession - last season 62%. Today we had 6 attempts at goal - last season 23. Today's corners 2 - last season 13.

So in as few points as possible; where did it all go wrong?
Last season we played a back 3 of Toure-Skrtel-Sakho : We went back to a similar system with Johnson-Skrtel-Lovren. Right system but wrong personnel or is the back 3 doomed as LFC's go-to system?
12 games without Daniel Sturridge & 12 games with a lone striker. In these 12 games we've amassed a miserable 13 goals compared to 3 games and 6 goals scored. A drop of 0.9 goals-per-game. Is it as simple as 1+1=2 or is this a more deeply rooted problem?
Last weekend was Martin Skrtel's first clean sheet since Tottenham on March 30th, taking his total up to 6/31 in the calendar year 2014. Is this a case of tried and tested that will never fit or is he simply the wrong man at the wrong time? His correspending starts in 2012/2013 season was 12 clean sheets in 31 starts. Where did it all go wrong?
Lastly I raise the question of how Rodgers has has managed to get so much out of Coutinho & Sterling last year but seemingly incapable of fitting them into the same side this season? Sterling gets marginalised on the flank and Coutinho gets a weird god complex on the ball in the middle of the park. Being two of our most creative players why can't we find a way to get them on the ball when both start?

P.S. Fucking fuck the fuck off, 'Pards'
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #1 on: November 2, 2014, 10:32:22 am »
A shaft of light in the murky morning.
Yep.

Offline penga

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #2 on: November 2, 2014, 11:01:34 am »
We saw for Skrtel return to the side unannounced for the umpteenth time and like clockwork our passing from the back suffered. Kolo Toure, for all his hick ups is actually very brave in possession. He moves the ball with intent and if the pass doesn't unfold for him, he takes it upon himself to bring it to the nearest red shirt he can find. It might not always come off, but at least the ball is closer to the opposition's goal than ours.
That's not his job but, he is supposed to give it to Gerrard or another mid, only when nothing is on he goes and tries to do something - starting to see signs of him trying to come out more though actually. It's clear Lovren tries to create more and come out with the ball without much success against Newcastle...again a lot has to do with lack of movement and options ahead of the CBs so I wouldn't really be blaming them for trying or not trying. Maybe Skrtel should do it more? Because when he does he seems to get it right more often than Lovren at the minute - if you remember one bit of play Skrtel came out with the ball under pressure and did a nice outside of the foot pass (more akin to Coutinho or Gerrard) to Sterling to create one of the few openings that allowed us to get in behind of the entire game and unfortunately Sterling fluffed the cross. It's just that it looks like Lovren has been entrusted with the responsibility more.

Offline adamski29

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #3 on: November 2, 2014, 11:48:12 am »

I was initially concerned when Brendan got the job, a little bit
because of lack of experience but mainly because of the way he set
up his Swansea team to play. I felt if we played that way we would
suffer against Park the bus sides (which would be most of the Pl,
once they cottoned on that this was a good way to deal with us) as
we did most notably under Roy Evans and even rafa to some
extend. It is a style of play that would be much better suited to
Swansea because it would allow a team not expected to win all the
time to control most games cut down the goals conceded (though
they still conceded a lot) and have a platrotfrim which to score
goals.
That's all fine for Swansea, but I knew it would be a problem for
Liverpool, and so it seemed for Brendan first 6 months or so in
charge.
Then Brendan decided he simply couldn't leave either of suarez of
sturridge out given there form and decided to play to our strengths,
to spectacular effect. It looked like a new, even slightly revolutionary
way to play that not many if any teams in the league or Europe
where adopting.
Wether there was a conscious decision to go back to a more
possession based system or something Brendan thinks is better
suited to the* players we ended up with* is up for debate. Either
way it looks like a disastrous decision, and it is playing out as I
initially feared when Brendan first got the job. I have been scarred
watching liverpool teams have mountains of possession with what
looks like control of a game but isn't really Then walking away with
nothing. If there is anything more frustrating in football I havnt
experienced it.
It can only have been two ways. Either Brendan almost resented the
fact that he had to play that way last year, despite results, and
couldn't wait to return to his core footballing philosophy, and
planned before time to do that, or he is reacting to the situation he
found himself in given a transfer window that from this remove
looks just short of disastrous if not fully so. In order to play the way
we now look to play, ironically you need a suarez even more in order
to create that bit of magic, and go past players in a packed defence
to open things up.
If the object of the excercise is to concede less goals, well then I
would suggest in a Rodgers team you will always concede goals,
and our defenders will certainly not help in that regard.
One last question! Is Rodgers adoption of that possession based
system a reaction to cover up a lack of ability or expertise in
coaching defence?
We still have players that can allow us to play the way we did last
season, even in sturridge absence. I'm sorry but that means
dropping Mario (I don't blame him, it's not his fault he was signed
wrongly to play in a team where his talent wouldn't be best utilized)
and playing sterling up top with players who can supply in behind.
Until sturridge is back.
Then go out in January and try sign players that do actually fucking
suit us. A couple of the right type of strikers to start with.
This situation can be fixed based on a template we've already used
if the manager chooses to.
Which brings me to the post match interview yesterday. While I
could be reading way too much into an interview after a poor defeat
and of course it could be Brendan was protecting the players. It
didn't serve to steady any nerves. Brendan looked a bit 'rabbit
caught in the headlights' while he additionally attempted to justify a
performance had absolutely no redeeming features. Talking about
having control was worrying, because though he likes control of
possession, control without penatration is a recipe for a very fed up
fan Base.
Lastly I really hope Brendan can sort this out. I like him and the
though that we could have to start again with a new manager
anytime soon is a thought that fill me with dread. While I think this
could be a while of yet, things can spiral very quickly into crisis in
football as we all know.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #4 on: November 2, 2014, 12:21:07 pm »
Its really difficult to put a finger on what's gone wrong this season. Indeed you'd probably end up using both hands, so many issues at present. Conspiracy theories aside (the Gerrard contract, owner situation, transfer committee), there are several worrying trends.

Foremost to me is the fundamental lack of trust shown by the manager to certain players, and over-confidence by the manager in the abilities of other players. I mean, surely the idea of getting players in (Markovic, Lallana, Can, Lambert, Sakho) was to USE them, partly in order to keep the team fresh, replace tired players with like for like replacements? I mean its ok to say that Markovic needs time out in order to adjust to his new environment etc, but Lallana? Sakho? Or are we just simply going to burn the shit out of Sterling/Coutinho/Henderson by not trusting Lallana or Markovic to do a job in several games/30 minute cameos??  Otherwise what is the point of signing them? I fear for Sterling in particular, we're going to wreck him by having no confience at all in the players we bought (and it can't be doing them any good when their only thought on matchday will be whether they are out the squad altogether or on the bench). What must they be thinking?

Last season Markovic was a regular in a League winning team, Lallana goes home on a matchnight, watches MOTD and must be wondering why the hell he didn't stay at Southampton and work with Koeman. They are full internationals, and they must be frustrated to hell and back. They have to be given more opportunities. The same applies to Lambert.. although with less fervour.. but the man surely doesn't feel happy to know that he effectively signed off his football career when he penned the contract, even if it was to join his boyhood club.

The treatment of Lucas is another concern, but I'll leave that aside for now, but I have to say it baffles me.

Then there's the favouritism shown by the manager to 5 current players. And in some cases they stink the place out. I would need to have someone take me aside and explain carefully why Glen Johnson is a starter in our team (yes yes, I'm scapegoating I know)....  but the man who thinks that player deserves to start ahead of Manquillo, even Andre Wisdom for heaven's sake, well they clearly know a lot more than I do.  And the captain needs rotation as well. He has been far from the worst performer, but he certainly shares the common factor with others of suffering a serious dip in form compared to last season. The man needs resting now and agin, its so obvious. I don't know what is going on behind the scenes regarding his contract stuff, but mentally and physically he looks wrecked. Take him out for a game or two. He must be drained in his head, thinking back to last season, the slip, the Title in his hands at last... then yet again he sees the talisman sold, the World Cup debacle, the sight of a chance at the League gone in October (again) and his hopes and dreams flushed away in the toilet bowl of his Club's ambition (or lack of) once more. Rest the fucking man for a fortnight. Send him away to a spa with Steve Peters.     I'll toss the issues of Mignolet, Skirtel and Balotelli to the scribes.

What I most want to know is why has our get up and go so clearly got up and gone?

Where is the delight, the joy, the movement of 5 months ago, gone to?  Our manager talked often last year about giving young players freedom to play. To express themselves.  What's happened to Henderson?? We hoped he'd kick on and become the 10 goal/10 assist player we know he can be? Not on current form. His joie de vivre is astonishingly lacking. Same thing applies to Sterling/Coutinho.

Yet again another season where at worst we needed to consolidate what we did last season, if not push on to better things even, has been a spectacular car crash. And I don't blame, entirely, the new signings. As Killer says, and I agree, more than most have looked decent, well the others might too, if only they'd get a fucking chance now and then. Its the change from pacy joyful football to a turgid, limp 'lets get this game over' attitude that bothers me. And I have no explanation what's gone on to make that so.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #5 on: November 2, 2014, 12:54:30 pm »
What I most want to know is why has our get up and go so clearly got up and gone?

Where is the delight, the joy, the movement of 5 months ago, gone to?  .

The insinuation is not enough time on the training ground. Last season we had a week to prepare between games, this season we don't. The last game we had the week to prepare was Spurs away which looked a nice continuation of last season.

When we play 3 games in 7 days we seem to struggle in all of them and that's what we've seen in September, October and now into November. Plus a few players overplayed and burnt out and others under utilised and unfit because we don't manage the squad effectively.

What's happened to Henderson?? We hoped he'd kick on and become the 10 goal/10 assist player we know he can be? Not on current form. His joie de vivre is astonishingly lacking. Same thing applies to Sterling/Coutinho.

See above, particularly the last sentence.
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Online Keith Lard

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #6 on: November 2, 2014, 12:58:56 pm »
Right now, the biggest problem is glaringly obvious. Suarez and Sturridge out = amazing movement and goalscoring prowess out. Balotelli and Lambert in = Slower movement and lack of confidence in.

The team is lacking belief, and belief is a powerful thing. But I do believe hard work will be put in the training ground to turn things round and I do see better times ahead. These are the reasons why:
- Sturridge will be back
- Balotelli will improve - he just needs a few goals
- Origi will be here eventually - this will add extra dynamism to the team, and another foil for someone like Balotelli
- Hard work will happen on the training ground to adapt things - we need to be patient
- Players like Markovic and Lallana will get better - be patient
- The January transfer window will give us the opportunity to make reinforcements

You may not like it, but good things come to those who work to a sound strategy, work hard and have talent. So stop stressing and thinking we are in crisis just because we have hit inevitable hard times. Did you really think we would not have difficulties after Suarez left, Sturridge was injured, and we signed so many new players? These are the difficult times we were expecting, so just be patient and don't take it all too seriously.
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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #7 on: November 2, 2014, 01:09:24 pm »
The insinuation is not enough time on the training ground. Last season we had a week to prepare between games, this season we don't. The last game we had the week to prepare was Spurs away which looked a nice continuation of last season.

Spurs was the one game this year where we looked really good.  Why?

We played 4-4-2 with that diamond midfield.  That formation allows Sterling to play where he can be at his best, allows Henderson to be a box to box midfielder and get beyond the strikers, and provides a strike partner for Balotelli.  We have plenty of players who can play as a striker while Sturridge is out.  You have Sterling, Borini, Lambert, and Markovic who can play there.  We have plenty of players who can play as a #10 and plenty of players who can play in the three midfield positions.  The variety of players that we have means that we could play that formation, which seems to suit us best, and provide tactical variety and versatility depending upon performance.  Once again, it seems that Rodgers simply doesn't trust some of the new signings to do the job that they were brought in for. 

You have to assume that we'll go back to this formation when Sturridge returns so why not play it while he's out? 

Offline AM76

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #8 on: November 2, 2014, 01:17:43 pm »

Last season Markovic was a regular in a League winning team

In a sub standard league where Andre Villas Boas took a team through a season unbeaten. I wouldn't read too much into that.

Offline tyrolean_red

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #9 on: November 2, 2014, 01:18:39 pm »
Spurs was the one game this year where we looked really good.  Why?

We played 4-4-2 with that diamond midfield.  That formation allows Sterling to play where he can be at his best, allows Henderson to be a box to box midfielder and get beyond the strikers, and provides a strike partner for Balotelli.  We have plenty of players who can play as a striker while Sturridge is out.  You have Sterling, Borini, Lambert, and Markovic who can play there.  We have plenty of players who can play as a #10 and plenty of players who can play in the three midfield positions.  The variety of players that we have means that we could play that formation, which seems to suit us best, and provide tactical variety and versatility depending upon performance.  Once again, it seems that Rodgers simply doesn't trust some of the new signings to do the job that they were brought in for. 

You have to assume that we'll go back to this formation when Sturridge returns so why not play it while he's out?
This this this 1000x.
It's clear we would have to adapt after Suarez was gone and Sturridge out injured. But why does it seem we changed the whole approach of our game. The system worked so well last year, it was ridiculous at times. Then we go out and buy players who seem to fit this system. But then we somehow decide to play a very different style of play. Instead of keeping to ball in our ranks we hoof it forwards and hope Balotelli gets it somehow. I just dont get it. We've seen so many times this year that Balotelli alone up front doesn't work by any means, however we still play him everey game. We also play our 34 year old captain nealry every game, who is in desperate need of a rest. It's ridiculous.
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Online Keith Lard

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #10 on: November 2, 2014, 01:22:48 pm »
In a sub standard league where Andre Villas Boas took a team through a season unbeaten. I wouldn't read too much into that.

The misery and negativity on here right now is too much. In fact, it's just stupid when you look at things logically.

We are 10 games into the season. We also started last season a bit slowly and look at the run we went on. Hell, look at Suarez - he took 2 seasons to become a goal machine. It's not going to happen overnight. It might not happen at all. But you've got to have some faith.

Go back to the boot room days and we used to have new signings sit on the bench whilst they settled in playing for the reserves. The expectation was not for players to be an overnight success.

I'm not meaning to be a superfan - I get down too after a bad performance. But things need to be looked at in context, and of course that's very boring as instant success and entertainment is what it's all about today. And that's why football is so shite these days.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #11 on: November 2, 2014, 01:36:01 pm »
We're too easy to defend against. If your as predictable and slow as we are then it doesn't take a manager of much calibre to seemingly outwit us.

The pattern of play from the back is usually two or three things, all predictable. We will pass it between Gerrard, the two centre halves and Johnson. When Johnson receives the ball he's closed down and will do any of the following. He will pass it back to Mignolet who will either hoof it or pass it to his centre halves, he'll square it to Skrtel or will boot it up the touchline. We do this constantly. The centre halves don't step out, not like agger or Sakho or even Toure. Gerrard gets immediately closed down so he gives it back to the centre halves or Johnson and the same sequence of events occur throughout the match. When we do find ourselves in possession halfway up the pitch we have no options, no movement. Yesterday we found ourselves halfway up the pitch numerous times only to give it square again, any momentum we have when attacking we constantly halt. Once again we usually pass it square or backwards to Gerrard, he hits a diagonal and it gets cut out.

A lot of frustration because there doesn't seem to be an "okay this is how we are gonna be effective" pattern to our play. We look clueless.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #12 on: November 2, 2014, 01:42:10 pm »
Also Sturridge and Suarez created so much space for the others, that can't be underestimated. They occupied the opposition constantly. How many games in Brendan's tenure have we played with both of Suarez and Sturridge missing. I can't think of too many, Young Boys away?
Even in small cup games one or the other played.

Offline hollger

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #13 on: November 2, 2014, 01:42:26 pm »
I was disappointed when I saw the team sheet for this one. With Madrid on Tuesday (even if we do end up taking a battering, it's a big match) I was hoping we'd see more of the personnel that started against Swansea in the League Cup.

Why did Borini not start? If Johnson is to play against Madrid, why didn't Manquillo play? Though perhaps it'll be Manquillo in the Bernabéu. Kolo did fine on Tuesday, brought the ball out from the back well and was calm and composed with the ball. The midfield had much more 'action' about them against Swansea. Lucas, Coutinho, Markovic etc were pinging the ball about with relative ease (although perhaps Swansea were more open, allowing it to happen) whereas against Newcastle I don't think I've seen us be as bad as that in a long while. Coutinho suffered from having nothing ahead of him to pass to. Sterling was out on the right and isolated most of the game. Balotelli, without adequate support, offered nothing different to previous weeks. Allen and Henderson ran about a lot but ultimately didn't have much impact on the game. Gerrard, well... he sprayed the ball about and whilst that's lovely, it doesn't really suit us at the moment for me. Perhaps he'd be better utilised further forward supporting Mario, with Can (or Lucas) in the holding spot?

The "Hollywood passes" are great, but currently they're a waste of time. Sterling was the main outlet and when Gerrard found him, by the time he'd controlled the ball he'd have 2 on or around him with minimal help or outlets for a pass. Balotelli likewise - he can control the ball no problem, but then had to try and hold play whilst the support was arriving or look to play it off if Coutinho, Allen or Moreno were in range. There was more movement against Swansea which in turn meant there were more options for the guy in possession - we saw quite a few more overlaps and through balls, for example.

Were we slow by design? There seemed to be a massive amount of pointless possession between our centre backs yesterday, I'm not sure why that was. I understand the general idea behind it of course, allowing players to rest etc - but our midfield/forward players didn't really need that yesterday because they weren't very active. Rodgers said we changed it up a bit in order to be a bit more solid defensively but in truth were were anything but. Newcastle rarely attacked but when they did, they weren't exactly struggling to cause us problems. If they'd had more quality up front then I suspect we'd have seen much of the same as previous weeks.

We lost the ball far too easily. There were some notable 'offenders' and some more surprising than others - Allen and Henderson for example. Johnson wasn't good and massively frustrating that he persists with the "cut in, shoot with the left" choice. A number of times I shouted at the TV (and I'm usually a calm viewer) as I saw players lay the ball of to each other poorly. Passes that should have been on the floor were knee height or above, often only having to travel 10 yards or so - what was going on there? Was it just a number of players all having a bad day?

Newcastle should have been down to 10, possibly even 9. Sissoko's lunge on Allen was shocking, easily in the leg-breaking category and should have been a red for me. Janmaat's hack on Balotelli - sometimes that'll be a straight red too as there was absolutely no intention to play the ball, so comes under the 'violent conduct' category surely? Some referee's put things down to how the game's going and there was a little bit of 'needle' just before it happened when Balotelli was battling (fairly, for me) with a couple of Newcastle players. Janmaat was clearly annoyed that his team weren't getting a decision but that doesn't excuse his action.

Still, even if they'd lost a man or two would we have gone on to do anything differently? They'd have just parked the bus and we hadn't looked like doing anything all afternoon, so it'd probably have petered out to a 0-0.

I'm left with many questions and I really, really hope that Rodgers and the players can come up with answers. This is not the thread to go into that though, plus there's a post on The Anfield Wrap site by Andy Heaton that sums up most of it. All I know is that we've entered a tough 7 days with a big disappointment (especially given the positives of a last gasp win on Tuesday). Hopefully the team can be sufficiently picked up for the next 2...!

Offline David Healy...

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #14 on: November 2, 2014, 03:51:46 pm »
I don't understand what way we are trying to play, why have we stopped doing what made us so successful last year? I don't think we needed both Lambert and Balotelli, they both lack pace, for me we should have purchased one and a striker similar to Sturridge who could replace him. We know he's quite injury prone so I'm not sure why we didn't buy someone, although Rodgers obviously went after Remy.

Balotelli playing up front on his own just isn't working. I think he's a good player but this system doesn't suit him or our other players. Last year we were great at stretching teams which allowed Gerrard and Coutinho to use their passing range to hurt teams in transition. This year our build up is slow, and with Mario inclined to come towards the ball, it leaves things very congested. Also yesterday Sterling was stranded on the touchline with no support and few opportunities to run at people.

I think we need to play the diamond, we have lots of midfielders who all fit into that system, and it allows us to play Coutinho and Sterling centrally and get them both on the ball. Up front we don't have much choice at the minute but I think we should use Borini and Mario together, it's not Sturridge and Suarez but I don't think we need to completely change the way the team plays if Sturridge is out. It might not be as effective as last year, but hopefully it will allow our midfield to at least function properly and create more chances if Borini can stretch teams giving us an option in behind and making space for Balotelli to drift from central areas which he has a tendency to do.

Hopefully Sturridge's return can help us out and Brendan can sort out our current poor form, I have a lot of faith in him and think he will work out a way to get this team functioning as it did last year. On the defensive side of things, I don't know how to fix the issues we have, none of our centre half partnerships have looked decent this year.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #15 on: November 2, 2014, 03:54:21 pm »
The misery and negativity on here right now is too much. In fact, it's just stupid when you look at things logically.

We are 10 games into the season. We also started last season a bit slowly and look at the run we went on. Hell, look at Suarez - he took 2 seasons to become a goal machine. It's not going to happen overnight. It might not happen at all. But you've got to have some faith.

Go back to the boot room days and we used to have new signings sit on the bench whilst they settled in playing for the reserves. The expectation was not for players to be an overnight success.

I'm not meaning to be a superfan - I get down too after a bad performance. But things need to be looked at in context, and of course that's very boring as instant success and entertainment is what it's all about today. And that's why football is so shite these days.


I agree. To a degree.

Last season we squeezed out wins. We weren't free-flowing. Suarez was still banned. But sturridge was scoring the goals needed to win us games and the team looked competent, if not explosive.

This season we are dropping points, we don't look competent (aside from Spurs, maybe), there is no Suarez, and Sturridge is out.

The argument of "its early, we're just 3 or 4 points off third" is of course very valid, and the points total for 3rd and 4th are going to be much lower this season. Everyone else is tripping over themselves, too.

But!

While we can agree to keep our cool, the argument shouldn't be pulled out to sweep everything under the carpet. Another five games like this, and suddenly we're digging a hole we'll spend the rest of the season fighting our way out of, just to scrape 4th or 5th. For now, we're getting away with it, but the concern from many is that the football is just turgid, turgid stuff.

And unlike your previous post Vishy, this has nothing to do with Lambert or Balotelli or our attack in my opinion.

The back four and midfield are the concern here, and not defensively, at least not for me; it's when we're in possession that these 6-7 players, no matter who they are, just look totally off the boil. Sloppy touches, sloppy passes (Lovren had so many stinkers yesterday it was incredible), not making the right movements, not being intelligent and proactive on or off the ball.

The result of this is that our attacking players never even get a whiff, an when they do its when they've dropped back in our own zone to make something happen. How many big chances has the squad generated for Lambert, Balotelli, etc? Almost none!

Coutinho and Sterling when he's played centrally have helped carry the ball forward - but their success has come just like that - not with passing, movement, but picking up the ball in the middle of the pitch and running with it into the 18yard box, using skill and tricks to get past the defense. When these two aren't in position or aren't in form, we look very, very poor.

Now as for summer signings, it's understandable to see knee-jerk reactions at this time of the year given how we're playing and our history with signings, spending big sums, and the 'committee', whatever it is; in a word, disastrous?

But here I think we need to chill out. Balotelli doesn't seem to fit us well, at least he isn't being used to his strengths one could argue. But can we really complain about any of the others? As individuals they've all had good performances - Lallana, Manquillo, Moreno, Can have all looked very good and what you'd have expected from them. Lovren... has had two poor games in QPR and Newcastle, but while he may not be the 20m-rated player we hoped for, he certainly isn't as shit as some on here would argue. And he's young and there's time to improve and be at his best. Lambert is a fine 3rd or 4th striker to have on the bench and one that is happy to play that role. Markovic is an unknown at this time and we just have to be patient - our poor form and performance this year so far shouldn't be used as a rope to hang the poor kid with, it's not his responsibility to save us!

So that's a pretty good amount of deals done, a few maybe over paid, and perhaps we can argue just missing the one quality signing - a striker, probably - which maybe in Origi we DID make but just don't have at Anfield just yet.

As for Rodgers, I share the same fears as some of the others here.

Perhaps the fear of regression dashes any hope for a purely objective view of our situation, but this season reminds me of his start to his first season, not last season: the ball gets pinged between the back four and one or two midfielders, the players look scared to make decisions or take risks, they are taking way too much time to move the ball on, and no one is running and making space (hence the struggle to move the ball on).

It also seems like there's acres of pitch between the back 4 and Gerrard/hendo or whoever drops back when Gerrard is under pressure, and the front 4. Which I recall being an issue during his first season - though that had more to do with the back four dropping too deep with the rest of the squad caught up field, with huge gaps for the opposition to exploit (which they did). I don't know if the causes are the same this time around.

So, from my armchair, it looks like Rodgers is trying to make his original ideas work again, and with the same type of results. It doesn't help that sturridge is out, but that can't be an acceptable response: "Oh, when sturridge is fit we'll be fine" - we can't have one player that's injury prone be the scapegoat and that is given the sole responsibility of shouldering the burden.

To summarize...

The team is underperforming, but so is everyone around us, so it isn't time to jump off the ledge just yet; however, we can't go on like this and we're not seeing improvement between games so far, which is very concerning.

Summer signings were good or all right.

Hurts that Suarez is gone and Sturridge is out, but its not our attack thats responsible for this malaise. The defense and midfield, in possession, just aren't playing well at all (and without the ball things are arguably worse from them).

Nothing we can do but hope Rodgers can solve the problems he has, be they ones he were given or he created. Whether that is going to involve a more pragmatic tactical approach, changes in training and preparation, changes in rotation and how personnel are selected, I don't know and frankly I don't care how he solves them just that he does.

But this is Rodgers dilemma and he'll rightly be judged by how the team performs going forward, and that's how it should be. The buck stops with him, that's why he makes the big bucks. He was pragmatic with Suarez and Sturridge last season, and we didn't just perform well we performed exceptionally well and that's credit to him (that is to say, it isn't all thanks to Suarez). Hopefully this season, with a much more difficult set of problems and without as sharp a set of tools (no suarez), he can work things out again.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #16 on: November 2, 2014, 03:58:07 pm »
Spurs was the one game this year where we looked really good.  Why?

We played 4-4-2 with that diamond midfield.  That formation allows Sterling to play where he can be at his best, allows Henderson to be a box to box midfielder and get beyond the strikers, and provides a strike partner for Balotelli.  We have plenty of players who can play as a striker while Sturridge is out.  You have Sterling, Borini, Lambert, and Markovic who can play there.  We have plenty of players who can play as a #10 and plenty of players who can play in the three midfield positions.  The variety of players that we have means that we could play that formation, which seems to suit us best, and provide tactical variety and versatility depending upon performance.  Once again, it seems that Rodgers simply doesn't trust some of the new signings to do the job that they were brought in for. 

You have to assume that we'll go back to this formation when Sturridge returns so why not play it while he's out?

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #17 on: November 2, 2014, 04:20:57 pm »
Spurs was the one game this year where we looked really good.  Why?

We played 4-4-2 with that diamond midfield.  That formation allows Sterling to play where he can be at his best, allows Henderson to be a box to box midfielder and get beyond the strikers, and provides a strike partner for Balotelli.  We have plenty of players who can play as a striker while Sturridge is out.  You have Sterling, Borini, Lambert, and Markovic who can play there.  We have plenty of players who can play as a #10 and plenty of players who can play in the three midfield positions.  The variety of players that we have means that we could play that formation, which seems to suit us best, and provide tactical variety and versatility depending upon performance.  Once again, it seems that Rodgers simply doesn't trust some of the new signings to do the job that they were brought in for. 

You have to assume that we'll go back to this formation when Sturridge returns so why not play it while he's out?

Agree but is that not also were having the week to prepare helped? It helped Rodgers pick the right team after working on things in training and having time to. We're played 3 games in 7 days from September and getting it wrong in all of them.

Every game since Spurs pretty much he's picked the wrong team and tactics and waited at least an hour to change it. We've basically wasted an hour of every game and I can't see that being by design.

Sturridge being injured is obviously a blow but I think he's chucked a lot of things out with the bathwater after the West Ham game. i.e. two up front and Lucas and Borini banished to the stands. But we've played just as badly in a few games since and West Ham are one of the best teams we've played. The concerning thing for me about games like yesterday was Newcastle were actually shit and there for the taking. Same with Basle who were beaten by Ludogorets and slaughtered in Madrid but we put a similar performance to yesterday.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #18 on: November 2, 2014, 04:54:54 pm »
Bill Shankly had the courage, back in '69, to break up the great 60s team and start building anew.  It was traumatic to the likes of St.John and Roger Hunt, great servants to the club. Same goes for Billy Liddell in the 50s/early 60s. Its a finite career.

Its time to admit we're at (some would say past) that point again with regards to Steven Gerrard.  Great career, but at best you'll get an extra year out of him.  But why, for who's benefit?  We're not going to win the league this year.  We'll be lucky to move forward in the ECL, this year or qualify for next.  Its time to restructure.  How can you restructure & build a new team around a guy who has at best a year left?  It just makes no sense to persevere, even if he's still doing a job today, think about tomorrow.

If, as Brendan says, this is a restructuring year, then bite the bullet & restructure!
« Last Edit: November 2, 2014, 04:59:28 pm by RedBootsTommySmith »
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #19 on: November 2, 2014, 05:03:12 pm »
With respect to what happened last season I wasn't particularly worried that we were unable to beat a team down to 10 men and also having conceded three goals in the process. The defense wasn't solid enough but the attack took care of it for the most part.

This season we have been lacking on both the fronts in some incredible fashion.

The main difference is that we are unable to dictate the tempo of a game from mid-field. There is not much dominance, much of the time is being spent in reshuffling and recycling possession from one flank to another or between the mid-field and the backline and in the process we are losing the ball quiet often and it has undone us on quite a few occasions and put the team under pressure. Which explains why we are having a lot of possession to show but not much in terms of creating chances.

We do not have Sturridge who can take the ball and run with it and spot gaps or run into spaces for the ball to be given to him and a major part of all that was Suarez. Coutinho's first half of last season wasn't as good as the second and so was Sterling's. The movements of the forwards meant that Gerrard could sit deep and spray those spectacular balls all round the opposition half and Henderson's main role was to stifle the opponents more than anything with his runs (primarily). That tells us why we weren't trying to be direct at all last season when it came to attack.

Now this season massive changes have been made in terms of personnel and they are taking time to adjust which is understandable. But what I am unable to understand is that while we are waiting for the new recruits to adjust why aren't we changing our tactics to come back to doing the basics right first by attacking from the flanks, throwing men in the box and getting the crosses right?

This match itself has has shown all the signs of hangover from last season.

More than three to four times we had chances to put good crosses into the box with men waiting but everyone was looking to go for that "all important bend on the ball" which results in a curler rather than a cross. It was either the case of decision making by the attacker in possession or the lack of movement in the box by others or sometimes it was both.

That goal we conceded was a direct result of that with Glen Johnson being the culprit there who couldn't track back either.

We have seen Sterling made some direct runs at the opponents and has done well in creating impact this season like he did last season. The manager knows it's how he can be more effective but he doesn't have the support he needs to make it much more effective. That said for all Coutnho's brilliance on the ball he is a and has always been a luxury player for us. The moment he finds space or is able to make a run he always chooses to do the difficult thing and there by losing possession in key areas. What he does generally has a 3 in 10 success ratio and we cannot afford that at the moment with the lack of proper personnel.

To me on a personal level I believe that Adam Lallana has the best chance at re-creating at least some of that game play we had last season but he needs support and this team with that plan is in dire need of Sturridge. But he isn't coming for now so change your game plan and get direct, go to the basics, get the crosses in, get the men into the box and feed on those loose balls when you can.

We had 14 shots yesterday only 3 of them on target and 5 of them getting blocked and the rest going wayward. What does that tell us if not a change in plan?.. and I haven't even mentioned anything about the defense.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #20 on: November 2, 2014, 05:08:02 pm »
Not sure why people mention Skrtel as being one of the problems. He is playing slightly above the average of the rest of the team. There's no one player to blame as all of them are now finding passing and controlling the ball a mystery.

Both Newcastle and ourselves huffed and puffed and we probably shaded the play except we didn't do a lot with the ball.

Somebody needs to tell Balotelli to attack the front post or else play somebody who does.

A poor mistake lead to their goal and to be honest neither team deserved to win.

The biggest talking point for me in the match is how on earth did Newcastle end up with 11 players on the pitch. Sissoko could have snapped Allen's leg as his studs were a foot off the ground when he caught Allen. Janmaat clearly lost the plot when Balotelli was making a fool of him and he lashed out. Both "tackles" were awful and deserved red.

I now am concerned at the lack of basic skills in the team and how we'll play against a Madrid team who all do the basics right.
The positive thing is that none of the contenders for 3rd and 4th place are regularly winning and if we can sort ourselves out then we'll do OK.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #21 on: November 2, 2014, 05:19:54 pm »
Not sure why people mention Skrtel as being one of the problems. .

Only that he's part of a back 4 that's abysmal.  They play way too deep and are just not disciplined,  I can't remember the last time they moved as a unit and caught a player offside.  (OK, maybe an exaggeration, but...).  IMO that's down to coaching, not just the players.
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Offline MobileBayRed

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #22 on: November 2, 2014, 05:31:54 pm »

If, as Brendan says, this is a restructuring year, then bite the bullet & restructure!

This is the real question for me.  I was one of the main flag wavers on the Rodgers bandwagon early days.  I was one of the few who actually voted for Rodgers as my choice to replace Kenny.  And I am not turning on him now, but this weekend I certainly reached a high level of frustration with him.

The thing I absolutely loved about Rodgers was his youthful aggression (some call it naivety).  He demanded his players play with confidence and was always willing to back his players when they made an individual error.  His patterns of attack can be beautiful.  He has played more formations and tactics in the last 2 1/2 years than most managers will play in a lifetime.  Personally, if there was one manager I would want on the touchline during a poor run of form it would be Rodgers. 

I heard Malcolm Gladwell interviewed several months ago.  He made a very interesting statement.  To paraphrase, "the irony of failing businesses is that they become more conservative instead of progressive."  Lately, I wonder if Rodgers is becoming more conservative than progressive.  This summer, there was clear intent (either from the club or from Rodgers or both).  We conceded the loss of Suarez and made a strategic plan for long term sustainable growth.  The indifferent form over the last month or so isnt necessarily a shock, thought the degree of our drop has been worse than expected.  In these times it would seem like Rodgers would become more inventive, not less so. 

Yesterday in the first half it was clear that Newcastle had come to set up 11 men behind the ball.  It was also clear that the starting XI put out by Brendan was not set up to attack such a defensive formation.  Maybe Rodgers thought he needed more defensive balance on the road against a team that was on a good run of form.  But when it became apparent that Newcastle had other intentions I was stunned that he didnt make an early change. 

I don't know if last years success has placed added pressure on Rodgers.  I think 2012 Rodgers makes a first half change yesterday.  I think 2012 Rodgers would be throwing out lineups that truly make us scratch our head.  Instead, we seem to be losing for the same reasons every match, and I am at a loss to think that Rodgers would go down trying to force the same square peg into the same round hole.

Other than Gerrard (and Johnson, who should be sparingly played)we are a very young team.  Young teams respond to major tactical changes better than older teams.  We are going on the road to Real Madrid.  As much as I despise saying this, nobody at LFC can reasonable believe this to be a winnable game (not right now).  Sadly, I think Rodgers will run out a similar lineup to the one he played at Anfield. 
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #23 on: November 2, 2014, 05:41:11 pm »
This is the real question for me.  I was one of the main flag wavers on the Rodgers bandwagon early days.  I was one of the few who actually voted for Rodgers as my choice to replace Kenny.  And I am not turning on him now, but this weekend I certainly reached a high level of frustration with him.

The thing I absolutely loved about Rodgers was his youthful aggression (some call it naivety).  He demanded his players play with confidence and was always willing to back his players when they made an individual error.  His patterns of attack can be beautiful.  He has played more formations and tactics in the last 2 1/2 years than most managers will play in a lifetime.  Personally, if there was one manager I would want on the touchline during a poor run of form it would be Rodgers. 

I heard Malcolm Gladwell interviewed several months ago.  He made a very interesting statement.  To paraphrase, "the irony of failing businesses is that they become more conservative instead of progressive."  Lately, I wonder if Rodgers is becoming more conservative than progressive.  This summer, there was clear intent (either from the club or from Rodgers or both).  We conceded the loss of Suarez and made a strategic plan for long term sustainable growth.  The indifferent form over the last month or so isnt necessarily a shock, thought the degree of our drop has been worse than expected.  In these times it would seem like Rodgers would become more inventive, not less so. 

Yesterday in the first half it was clear that Newcastle had come to set up 11 men behind the ball.  It was also clear that the starting XI put out by Brendan was not set up to attack such a defensive formation.  Maybe Rodgers thought he needed more defensive balance on the road against a team that was on a good run of form.  But when it became apparent that Newcastle had other intentions I was stunned that he didnt make an early change. 

I don't know if last years success has placed added pressure on Rodgers.  I think 2012 Rodgers makes a first half change yesterday.  I think 2012 Rodgers would be throwing out lineups that truly make us scratch our head.  Instead, we seem to be losing for the same reasons every match, and I am at a loss to think that Rodgers would go down trying to force the same square peg into the same round hole.

Other than Gerrard (and Johnson, who should be sparingly played)we are a very young team.  Young teams respond to major tactical changes better than older teams.  We are going on the road to Real Madrid.  As much as I despise saying this, nobody at LFC can reasonable believe this to be a winnable game (not right now).  Sadly, I think Rodgers will run out a similar lineup to the one he played at Anfield.

Nicely said, mate. I agree that Rogers seems hesitant to play a team that is too young right now under all this pressure. Last season was a curse as much as a blessing in this respect. The general play of the old guard is deteriorating pretty quickly this season and Rodgers' team selection has become very conservative as a result. I wonder if he was unprepared, as young manager himself, for the general poor form of last year's starters? He is in a tough spot.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #24 on: November 2, 2014, 05:42:55 pm »
We have no answers up front. I just don't think there is a solution with the players we have fit. We're really marking time until Sturridge is back or January window opens. I doubt we'll buy anyone so it's really Sturridge that's our messiah.
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Offline MobileBayRed

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #25 on: November 2, 2014, 05:58:34 pm »
We have no answers up front. I just don't think there is a solution with the players we have fit. We're really marking time until Sturridge is back or January window opens. I doubt we'll buy anyone so it's really Sturridge that's our messiah.

Agree and Disagree.  From a normal footballing perspective, we are certainly blunt up front without Sturridge.  Don't think anyone questions that.

The problem for me is that continuing to play Balotelli alone up front not only changes our patterns of attack but it forces us to abandon the high pressing game we utilized so well last year.  I would rather play Borini up top which would give us the quickness and athleticism to aggressively pressure teams high up the pitch.

Rodgers has put a high priority on young two-way hybrid attacking midfielders.  In fact, we have so many of them, we can't fit them all into a 4-2-3-1, which on top of the Balotelli problem, frustrates the heck out of supporters when we have good attacking options on the bench.  Why not play Sterling alone up top in a 4-2-3-1 with Lallana, Coutinho, and Henderson behind him.  That team might not win, but it would be a nightmare to defend against and would at least allow us to get back into a system where we can exert a lot of pressure on teams when we don't have the ball.  It is certainly not a traditional lineup, but two years ago Rodgers would have tinkered with every option.  He would not have continued to put Balotelli in a position to fail.

We saw Balotelli come off the bench, mid-week, in a two man front and look lively and dangerous.  Yet 3 days later Rodgers reverts back to the old failings of putting him up top by himself and isolating Sterling on the right.  Would rather see Rodgers go down trying different things.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #26 on: November 2, 2014, 05:59:58 pm »
Only that he's part of a back 4 that's abysmal.  They play way too deep and are just not disciplined,  I can't remember the last time they moved as a unit and caught a player offside.  (OK, maybe an exaggeration, but...).  IMO that's down to coaching, not just the players.


The conundrum though is how you play a high line with a deep lying playmaker in the side. If you push up and compress the play then you need midfield players who thrive in tight areas. For me that means playing the likes of Lucas, Allen, Coutinho, Sterling and Lallana players who are comfortable receiving and moving the ball on quickly in tight areas.

If you want a deep lying playmaker then you need to make the pitch big so that your quarterback can get on the ball and you need phenomenal athletes who can cover huge distances over and over again. You are looking at the Pogba yin to Pirlo yang. unfortunately in the Premiership week in week out you will come up against the Colback's and Abeid's especially in the first half of the season. Players with the physical attributes to match you if you play a stretched game.

Yesterday for me we had Allen and Coutinho who want to play a short sharp quick passing game and Gerrard and Henderson who want to play a more stretched game where Gerrard's passing and Henderson's athleticism come to the fore. You start playing fast one touch pinball passing and both Henderson and Gerrard because of their physique look uncomfortable. Whereas if you turn it into a game of athleticism then Coutinho and Allen struggle.

For me we have to decide on which road we are going to take and then channel our energies and crucially our recruitment strategy in that direction.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #27 on: November 2, 2014, 06:02:55 pm »
What made Suarez and Sturridge so effective? They can both play effectively as lone strikers. Put them upfront together, and you have an utter nightmare for defenders. People called them a partnership last season, but they were not, in the truest sense. They fed off each other, but they did not rely on each other.

Balotelli is clearly not an effective lone striker. At times, he has not even looked like an effective striker. This is worrying for a couple of reasons. If we bought in the summer with a lone striker system in mind, then we've left ourselves with a single good option; Sturridge. If we bought in the summer with a two-striker system in mind, then we've left ourselves with two good options, and one of those options is reliant on Sturridge. Either way you look at it like, we monumentally fucked up the striker situation in the summer, compounded by Origi being unavailable till next season.

To the actual match.

Sterling was wasted on the wing, one of his quietest, most ineffective performances. It begs the question why we don't play a two-striker system, if only to put Sterling in his best position, considering he's one of our two best attackers.

One thing that has been working recently is using Coutinho as an impact sub. He starts and he wasn't able to get a footing in the game, he was invisible for stretches and was unable to do the basics when he had the ball. Was surprised that Can didn't start, considering he didn't play against Swansea mid-week, the way he looks to break the lines with his running would've been effective in a performance that lacked energy and drive.

Perhaps the biggest disappointments were players like Henderson and Allen, who you would expect to add composure and consistency to the team, as Rodgers' senior men in the squad. Coutinho had the excuse of being in tight spaces, under pressure, and a lot younger, but Henderson and Allen were having 5 yard touches, and misplacing passes throughout the game.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #28 on: November 2, 2014, 06:05:36 pm »
Done by Pardew.....that just sums up the match against Newcastle.

I rate Rodgers higher than pardew, lambert and allardyce.... If he just man's up and makes the right decisions, i am sure we will pickup points in the next match (well maybe not against Real Madrid...but i reckon we can get something against Chelsea).

 What has happened to the man who told off downing infront of everyone ? What has happened to the man who got rid of carroll because he did not fit his philosophy....?

He still has time...but he has to act now. Pick the right team. Results will follow.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #29 on: November 2, 2014, 06:07:07 pm »
The conundrum though is how you play a high line with a deep lying playmaker in the side. If you push up and compress the play then you need midfield players who thrive in tight areas. For me that means playing the likes of Lucas, Allen, Coutinho, Sterling and Lallana players who are comfortable receiving and moving the ball on quickly in tight areas.

If you want a deep lying playmaker then you need to make the pitch big so that your quarterback can get on the ball and you need phenomenal athletes who can cover huge distances over and over again. You are looking at the Pogba yin to Pirlo yang. unfortunately in the Premiership week in week out you will come up against the Colback's and Abeid's especially in the first half of the season. Players with the physical attributes to match you if you play a stretched game.

Yesterday for me we had Allen and Coutinho who want to play a short sharp quick passing game and Gerrard and Henderson who want to play a more stretched game where Gerrard's passing and Henderson's athleticism come to the fore. You start playing fast one touch pinball passing and both Henderson and Gerrard because of their physique look uncomfortable. Whereas if you turn it into a game of athleticism then Coutinho and Allen struggle.

For me we have to decide on which road we are going to take and then channel our energies and crucially our recruitment strategy in that direction.

Spot on, AI.  As for this 'quarterback' deal, I'm done with it.  This is not American football, and as shown yesterday, using a QB in real football, channeling everything through one player makes us so predictable and easy to defend against. Pardew saw it coming & was up to it.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #30 on: November 2, 2014, 06:16:24 pm »
The misery and negativity on here right now is too much. In fact, it's just stupid when you look at things logically.

We are 10 games into the season. We also started last season a bit slowly and look at the run we went on. Hell, look at Suarez - he took 2 seasons to become a goal machine. It's not going to happen overnight. It might not happen at all. But you've got to have some faith.

Go back to the boot room days and we used to have new signings sit on the bench whilst they settled in playing for the reserves. The expectation was not for players to be an overnight success.

I'm not meaning to be a superfan - I get down too after a bad performance. But things need to be looked at in context, and of course that's very boring as instant success and entertainment is what it's all about today. And that's why football is so shite these days.

Come on mate, we won our first 3 games on the bounce and were top of the league at Christmas last season. This myth that we had a slow start is nonsense. Yes, we played incredible in the final half of the season and that made people think that our first half was 'slow' but we were far from terrible at the start or at least the first half of the season. Even when we were not quite at the races we were grinding out results. Compare that to this season where our 'slow start' has us 8th in the league with 4 wins in 10 playing some of the most horrendous football we've played under Brendan, there really is no comparison.

I see similar patterns from Rafa's last season. 'We're only x points off 4th, win the next game and XYZ lose their game, we'll be right back in it'. The problem is, we are not playing well enough to get the points and get a run together. We have Chelsea at home next weekend. By this time next week we could be 6th points off Arsenal, 9 off City, 11 from Southampton (who have Leicester at home) and 15 off top. Yes it could be different but looking at the way we are playing, it's the most likely scenario. Its November and we have to get this sorted now or we will be going in the new year needing title winning form to get into the top 4.

We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #31 on: November 2, 2014, 06:41:59 pm »
Agree but is that not also were having the week to prepare helped? It helped Rodgers pick the right team after working on things in training and having time to. We're played 3 games in 7 days from September and getting it wrong in all of them.

Every game since Spurs pretty much he's picked the wrong team and tactics and waited at least an hour to change it. We've basically wasted an hour of every game and I can't see that being by design.

Sturridge being injured is obviously a blow but I think he's chucked a lot of things out with the bathwater after the West Ham game. i.e. two up front and Lucas and Borini banished to the stands. But we've played just as badly in a few games since and West Ham are one of the best teams we've played. The concerning thing for me about games like yesterday was Newcastle were actually shit and there for the taking. Same with Basle who were beaten by Ludogorets and slaughtered in Madrid but we put a similar performance to yesterday.

there is no doubt having a week to prepare for each game is a huge advantage.  We played great in that Tottenham match and this is what I don't understand.  Just because we were without Sturridge, why switch the entire system.  We've taken Sterling and Henderson away from their best roles in the team and it's clearly not working.  Rodgers must see that we are not creating good chances playing with Mario up top on his own.  He's not good as a lone forward in a system that we are trying to play.  Why not go back to playing the way we were last year when we were at our best instead of laboring away at a system that is not working for us at the moment. 

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #32 on: November 2, 2014, 06:43:11 pm »
Go back to the boot room days and we used to have new signings sit on the bench whilst they settled in playing for the reserves. The expectation was not for players to be an overnight success.

I'm not meaning to be a superfan - I get down too after a bad performance. But things need to be looked at in context, and of course that's very boring as instant success and entertainment is what it's all about today. And that's why football is so shite these days.

I get what you're saying, but at least for me, it's not necessarily about the new signings. It's about the way we seem to do business in terms of transfers, in that we're basically paying millions to give a player an extended trial, where they train with us, play a handful of games and are shipped out again. Just look at some of the players in recent years: Borini, Luis Alberto, Aspas, Ilori, Assaidi. They've spent a lot of time on our bench or even in the stands and don't seem to have made any progress. They get the odd 20 minutes here and there and maybe a full game in the League Cup. Then what we end up doing is loan them out (and then try to sell them like Borini). I have no problem, if that happens from time to time as no transfer is 100% spot on, but it happens too often for us. And it's not as if we've got those players for peanuts. We've paid quite a bit of money to get them... It is not about instant success. However, if we're trying to compete with the likes of Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd. or even Arsenal and Spurs we cannot afford to blow away 20 or 30 millions for players who aren't helping us (either now or in the future).

Offline Chris~

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #33 on: November 2, 2014, 06:54:46 pm »


So in as few points as possible; where did it all go wrong?
Last season we played a back 3 of Toure-Skrtel-Sakho : We went back to a similar system with Johnson-Skrtel-Lovren. Right system but wrong personnel or is the back 3 doomed as LFC's go-to system?
Wrong personnel. The Bayern-esque back 3/4 was something that could have worked, we just had too many defensive players on the pitch. At our best last season we seemed to be trying to get as many attacking players on the pitch as possible, this was the exact opposite of that. 3 centre backs, three pretty defensive midfielders and Moreno as one of the wing backs. Plus none of the midfielders were really making runs beyond Balotelli, it was perfect for Newcastle who were happy to let that back 6 have the ball.

The only centre back really capable of stepping out with the ball was Johnson, who looked uncomfortable doing it is this system and is in some pretty terrible form anyway. Plus you had Lovren and Gerrard doing the same thing, picking the ball up deep and trying to spray passes. Savage talked a lot of shit yesterday, but he was right that we should have just Gerrard do that, we needed Lovren, like the other two, to be more comfortable taking the ball past the half way line, pushing us up. We could have done with Can trying to be Alba if we were looking at Bayern's set up. He's played in a back three for Germany u21's and looks quite comfortable on the ball. He'd at least have taken some risks try to burst past players, which we could afford with two other centre backs on the pitch.

Quote
12 games without Daniel Sturridge & 12 games with a lone striker. In these 12 games we've amassed a miserable 13 goals compared to 3 games and 6 goals scored. A drop of 0.9 goals-per-game. Is it as simple as 1+1=2 or is this a more deeply rooted problem?

I've said in other threads I think our problem is bigger than how many play up front. I don't think having, say, Borini on the pitch makes us better equipped to keep the ball in the final third. We rush passes, panic, try to force things and turn the ball over in bad areas, the goal yesterday was a great example of this. Two up front also doesn't make Balotelli a better finisher, he takes the two easy chances against Everton and Hull and things are looking better. The Spurs game was our last with Sturridge, had we played with just him up front I think that game ends up being a similar result. He's a match winner, can score from nothing, makes great runs and knows where to be in the box, he could have helped cover over some of our problems whilst we looked for solutions. Had Sturridge played against Everton and Hull I think we win those games, probably beat Newcastle as well, they weren't good yesterday and that's the worst thing about the result. They didn't do anything to win that yet we still lost and couldn't create one good chance.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2014, 07:06:34 pm by Chris~ »

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #34 on: November 2, 2014, 07:23:53 pm »
The misery and negativity on here right now is too much. In fact, it's just stupid when you look at things logically.

We are 10 games into the season. We also started last season a bit slowly and look at the run we went on. Hell, look at Suarez - he took 2 seasons to become a goal machine. It's not going to happen overnight. It might not happen at all. But you've got to have some faith.

I hate this sort of post.

There are major, major problems in this team that Rodgers seems unable/unwilling to sort out. The only reason we aren't already effectively out of the race for top 4 is because most of our main rivals are also struggling, whilst we all believe the 'pretenders' who are currently flying high will fade away.

But let's be clear; finishing outside the top 4 will be a disaster. We saw last summer how difficult it is to bring top talent in, even when finishing second. Without Champions League football (and with the club by all accounts not willing to throw silly money at signings), we will be once again searching the bargain bucket, hoping to unearth another diamond smeared with shite that just needs a polish and some love & affection.

And the thing that really rubs salt in the wound is the thought that those f***ing w***ers in Salford will squeak into 4th and really be able to rebuild. Even without CL football to offer, they still signed Di Maria & Falcao. Yes, they paid over the odds - but they realised they had to. And imagine if we'd have used the Luis money to bring these two in? Does anyone really think we'd be stumbling around blindly in mid-table?

More and more the heartache of last season is looking like the mother of all missed opportunities to regain our place at the pinnacle of English football, despite the odds (due to the bent money at City & the Plastic c*nts) being well against us.

Offline AM76

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #35 on: November 2, 2014, 07:41:40 pm »
Even without CL football to offer, they still signed Di Maria & Falcao. Yes, they paid over the odds - but they realised they had to. And imagine if we'd have used the Luis money to bring these two in? Does anyone really think we'd be stumbling around blindly in mid-table?

I said in a thread last week that we should have gone after someone like Benzema, Higuian, Falcao, Cavani with the Suarez money and got laughed at saying we could never get them players.

United know the score, like you said, they overpaid, but if they get 4th or higher this year its money well spent

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #36 on: November 2, 2014, 08:14:09 pm »
We're lacking a bit of experience on the attacking side of the pitch. We're expecting all the creative play to come from a 19 and a 22 year old. That's a lot of responsibility. Also especially Sterling is used to be the young lad among the world stars - now suddenly he's the main man, and it's not happening. He's got trouble linking with the players around him (he's used to Suarez and Sturridge), and maybe his confidence is going down.

The second issue to me are how the problems with the attack affect the defense. We put too much pressure on the defense by not threatening enough at the other end.

The third issue is the pace of games. We're no good in slow matches. We need fast paced games to make the quality of our players count - in a slow match, all players have time to control the ball, find a pass, and play it. In a fast game, good players will make less mistakes. But recently, we let nearly all other teams slow us to a crawl. For the millions of AM we have, we have nobody to control the pace of the game. They are all little whizz around players with a couple of neat tricks.
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Offline stevensr123

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #37 on: November 2, 2014, 08:21:14 pm »
We aren't playing two up top like last season , and our attack and build up has become slow due to signing players not suited to the quick style we played last season. Are build up is now slow and predictable and ballotelli playing as a lone striker yet deeper than most of the attacking midfielders at times isn't exactly working.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #38 on: November 2, 2014, 08:25:03 pm »


There are major, major problems in this team that Rodgers seems unable/unwilling to sort out. The only
And the thing that really rubs salt in the wound is the thought that those f***ing w***ers in Salford will squeak into 4th and really be able to rebuild. Even without CL football to offer, they still signed Di Maria & Falcao. Yes, they paid over the odds - but they realised they had to. And imagine if we'd have used the Luis money to bring these two in? Does anyone really think we'd be stumbling around blindly in mid-table?


I can't say with any certainty that we wouldn't be stumbling round in mid table if we had got those players. After all United are!

I said in a thread last week that we should have gone after someone like Benzema, Higuian, Falcao, Cavani with the Suarez money and got laughed at saying we could never get them players.

United know the score, like you said, they overpaid, but if they get 4th or higher this year its money well spent

It won't be money well spent if they get fourth. It really won't.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2014, 08:27:05 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #39 on: November 2, 2014, 08:29:22 pm »
It won't be money well spent if they get fourth. It really won't.

Will be for them. Champions league money,can use that as a lure to get players in and get sponsorship obligations paid up. Last thing we want is them getting back into the champions league at our expense.