Author Topic: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3  (Read 45505 times)

Offline MichaelA

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #120 on: May 9, 2014, 03:55:49 pm »
Panic seemed to set in, and they got the second two minutes after that.

Surely nothing more need be said? We had a collective loss of discipline, tactical nous, common sense and sanity. It happens. It happens to the best of us. It happened last Monday.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #121 on: May 9, 2014, 04:02:38 pm »
YES. And knowing Lucas, HE at least did EXACTLY as he was instructed. He did not retreat, he did not put himself next to Stevie to make it a 2 DM setup, he did not switch with Gerrard to become the less adventurous DM, with Stevie where Lucas had been. The way I (probably erroneously) see it, the fact that there WAS communication (better, visible to all evidence that there was) and to LUCAS specifically, and what subsequently transpired, indicates that the communication was NOT to 'consolidate', etc.

You're assuming that the communication to Lucas was only about Lucas. It was just as likely (if not more so) that he used Lucas to communicate to the team. In which case, the same point still stands - you can only do and say so much from the sideline. In the end, the frenzy of the game makes players revert to type. The FA used to do a little experiment on the coaching courses way back when. They used to play a training game, but before the training game, they gave each player (and these were top professionals of the day) a fruit or vegetable to remember. Just one word - so one player might have to remember "apple", another might have to remember "carrot", etc. 20 minutes after the game started, all the players were called in, and asked to recite their fruit or vegetable they were given. There was a high failure rate. The point of the exercise was to show that the heat of battle makes players think only of what they've been trained to do, and to give extra information, even before a game, is to risk that information being discarded. The idea from the FA was that the majority of the work is done on the training ground, and players will play how they train under pressure. This is why Rafa rehearsed so many different ways of playing, and different formations - so that the players could slip easily from one mode into another. So no matter what Rodgers was trying to tell the players, they were always going to go into the all-out-attack mode that they've played and trained all season, once they were under psychological pressure.

Quote
I agree that this is the 'by the book' script, in light of what we all know about Rodgers 'general' script, or script of scripts. Whether it was actually the case in this case is not established. Anyway, your analysis puts my mind at ease that I am not entirely crazy when I think that Gerrard in DM/controller is not always and necessarily ideal.

It is established. Until the first goal, Gerrard played more in the back of the field:



When the first Palace goal was scored, he pushed forward more:



Once they got the second goal, he almost completely abandoned the position to push forward, and in doing so, Palace had freedom to run into areas in front of the back four - areas that, if covered, would not have necessitated Skrtel coming out to challenge the long ball that led to the third goal:



So as I said - he, among others, went off-script, and this allowed Palace in. It wasn't anything tactical, it was pure mentality and psychology. Hindsight being 20/20, the better decision might have been to take Gerrard off for Coutinho at 3-0 up, and put Lucas in his spot, and Aspas on for Sturridge to harass the Palace defenders up front. But hindsight is 20/20.
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #122 on: May 9, 2014, 04:05:59 pm »
It's coincidence though. 2 minutes is not enough time for that kind of tactical shift to have an impact. We subbed Sterling off at 77 minutes, and they scored their first on 79. It was their goal that was the turning point. Panic seemed to set in, and they got the second two minutes after that. Nothing to do with Sterling/Coutinho, and everything to do with mentality.

To me, it's no surprise that despite all of the good work he's done, both of Steve Peters' "star pupils" faced monumental collapse on the same night. Because when it is all said and done, mental fitness is like physical fitness - it is a slave to any deep internal flaws that might already exist. In physical fitness, it's usually a structural flaw that prevents maximum performance at critical times. In mental fitness, it's a deep psychological flaw that existed long before the person became a top professional athlete. You can work around these flaws, but you won't know how to do that until they present themselves. We won't score as many goals next season, but I think we'll get more "results" than we have this season (which is saying something).
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Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #123 on: May 9, 2014, 04:08:49 pm »
And yet Ferguson won countless trophies doing exactly that ?

It wasn't so much the personnel, it was the fact they seemed to drop back ten yards as a unit once we went to 3-2.

From a layman, we should have dropped the FB's back in line with the CB's to make a 5, but the CB's dropped deeper, and the FB's stayed pretty much where they were.

Context. Extra attackers when? When you are 3-0 or 3-1  or even 3-2 up in a hugely significant second to last game of the season? I posit that Ferguson did no such thing. He for sure added attackers when he was losing or drawing a game he wanted to change the result of, which is why United won so many points by scoring late goals in games, but we already essentially had the three points in the bag. Palace had to reach in and pull them out.

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #124 on: May 9, 2014, 04:10:45 pm »
Glad to see you back contributing POP and what you say about Gerrard makes perfect sense from what we have seen of Gerrard through the years. He is a great players, but in the heat and emotion of the game, he seems to be playing his own game, leaving other members of the team confused about what to do.

Back then, they simply gave it to him and let him do his thing, but this Liverpool 2013-2014 version is different from the past Liverpool teams, they are not sure what to do.

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #125 on: May 9, 2014, 04:12:48 pm »
Anyone remember when Rafa subbed Stevie off in a derby, and afterward said that "at one point you have to play more with your head than your heart"?

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #126 on: May 9, 2014, 04:18:33 pm »
Anyone remember when Rafa subbed Stevie off in a derby, and afterward said that "at one point you have to play more with your head than your heart"?

Yup, v Everton. Lucas came on and had a goalbound shot saved on the line by Neville, we scored the resulting peno.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #127 on: May 9, 2014, 04:20:56 pm »
Surely nothing more need be said? We had a collective loss of discipline, tactical nous, common sense and sanity. It happens. It happens to the best of us. It happened last Monday.

I live in Spain so don´t get to see many games live and I agree with you Michael, shit happens but from what I have seen on tele is that some second halves are squeaky bum times. I think that we bought several defenders sometime ago but I haven´t seen them in the first team, our defending has let us down considerably. Our goals for is very good but our goals against is not at all good and puts lots of pressure on the strikers.
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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #128 on: May 9, 2014, 04:22:04 pm »
YES. And knowing Lucas, HE at least did EXACTLY as he was instructed. He did not retreat, he did not put himself next to Stevie to make it a 2 DM setup, he did not switch with Gerrard to become the less adventurous DM, with Stevie where Lucas had been. The way I (probably erroneously) see it, the fact that there WAS communication (better, visible to all evidence that there was) and to LUCAS specifically, and what subsequently transpired, indicates that the communication was NOT to 'consolidate', etc.

Sorry but there is no way Rodgers would lie, just not worth it.

If he told them to press forward for another goal, then blames the players for doing so saying he instructed otherwise, he would loose their respect and with it any chance of winning anything with those players.

Questioning the reasons behind what Rodgers did or didn't do is one thing, accusing him of lying is quite another. Surely he has done enough for us this season to at least have earned that modicum of respect, no?
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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #129 on: May 9, 2014, 04:22:21 pm »
PoP!  Good to see you back.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #130 on: May 9, 2014, 04:24:28 pm »
I live in Spain so don´t get to see many games live and I agree with you Michael, shit happens but from what I have seen on tele is that some second halves are squeaky bum times. I think that we bought several defenders sometime ago but I haven´t seen them in the first team, our defending has let us down considerably. Our goals for is very good but our goals against is not at all good and puts lots of pressure on the strikers.

I think you're dead right (as usual) Vic, but it wouldn't surprise me if next season we're a little more cynical in our defending in the second half. Not quite Leeds in the 60's and 70's, but less like the overenthusiastic 10 year olds high on Vimto and DibDabs
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #131 on: May 9, 2014, 04:26:25 pm »


So as I said - he, among others, went off-script, and this allowed Palace in. It wasn't anything tactical, it was pure mentality and psychology. Hindsight being 20/20, the better decision might have been to take Gerrard off for Coutinho at 3-0 up, and put Lucas in his spot, and Aspas on for Sturridge to harass the Palace defenders up front. 

This sums it up, the main reason for what happened, panic, and the possible solution, Lucas in the holding role. It will be another big decision coming up for Rodgers starting to substitute Gerrard and Suarez whenever needed. In those last two games, we were definitely missing the calming influence of Lucas in the holding role compared to Gerrard but it's a very provocating point and probably impossible at this stage of the season... man management and all that.

Overall we pushed our limits and it had to end at some point with the limitations still there within the squad, especially in comparison to City and Chelsea..
« Last Edit: May 9, 2014, 04:30:12 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #132 on: May 9, 2014, 04:36:32 pm »
One thing I noticed with Skrtel is that once he gets booked he transforms into a different defender.
Good point. That booking was really strange as well. To me it looked more like as if Skrtel was competing fairly in a 50/50 challenge, only for the Palace player to lose his head and barge him over with both arms. Skrtel had gotten a warning from Clatterberg previously, but how he could have been seen as being at fault for that still puzzles me.

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #133 on: May 9, 2014, 04:56:46 pm »
/snip
Really interesting points on in-game management which I have to say I agree with (without having coached myself, obviously). Always appreciated.

Just on those Gerrard action areas though, I went on Squawka myself and seem to get different numbers?

Squawka only lets me pick action areas by 5min blocks.


80-85mins


Gerrard seems to be solely playing the deeper role and not venturing forward at all. 80-85mins effectively spans from right after Palace score (79mins) to 3mins before their 3rd goal (88mins)- seems to me like he was generally in the area of the pitch you'd want him to be?



85-90mins


Gerrard spends 22% of his time in the leftback zone and in front of his own goal. Now I'm not sure, but I reckon that because you cannot select beyond 90mins on the Squawka slider, 85-90mins actually includes stoppage time?

Since there was 5mins of stoppage time, then spending Gerrard spending 22% of his time in a deeper position seems to tally fairly well with Palace scoring 3mins into that 'block' (after 30% of the time).

i.e. gerrard spent 22% of the closing 5mins + stoppage time in defensive areas, but we only had a lead for ~30% of it anyway, and then needed to chase the win.

I do think in the last couple of games the rare frailties in Gerrard's game (steering games and not letting games steer him) have perhaps been exposed (as you'd expect), but I'm not sure he went walkabout after the Palace goals?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #134 on: May 9, 2014, 05:23:05 pm »
Really interesting points on in-game management which I have to say I agree with (without having coached myself, obviously). Always appreciated.

Just on those Gerrard action areas though, I went on Squawka myself and seem to get different numbers?

Squawka only lets me pick action areas by 5min blocks.


80-85mins


Gerrard seems to be solely playing the deeper role and not venturing forward at all. 80-85mins effectively spans from right after Palace score (79mins) to 3mins before their 3rd goal (88mins)- seems to me like he was generally in the area of the pitch you'd want him to be?



85-90mins


Gerrard spends 22% of his time in the leftback zone and in front of his own goal. Now I'm not sure, but I reckon that because you cannot select beyond 90mins on the Squawka slider, 85-90mins actually includes stoppage time?

Since there was 5mins of stoppage time, then spending Gerrard spending 22% of his time in a deeper position seems to tally fairly well with Palace scoring 3mins into that 'block' (after 30% of the time).

i.e. gerrard spent 22% of the closing 5mins + stoppage time in defensive areas, but we only had a lead for ~30% of it anyway, and then needed to chase the win.

I do think in the last couple of games the rare frailties in Gerrard's game (steering games and not letting games steer him) have perhaps been exposed (as you'd expect), but I'm not sure he went walkabout after the Palace goals?

The key is not so much where he was, but where he wasn't. In the 85th minute block, he was either defending in the box, or pushing forward into the attack, more than he was controlling the space in the middle. Not that he wasn't in that position at all, as the still frame for the goal shows; but that he was playing too gung ho for what the game needed at 3-2. I used the Squawka diagrams just to show GrkStav that Gerrard wasn't as disciplined as he might have remembered, in the latter stages of the game.

Here is the breakdown of the equaliser, in three key points:

1) There was no pressure on the Palace defender
2) Because there was no pressure on the Palace defender, the Liverpool defence should have dropped to the 18 automatically (they dropped eventually, but the Palace player had extra touches and was able to play the ball before they got to the line)
3) Skrtel was left in a 1v2 situation. Sakho was marking nobody, and didn't drop in behind to sweep up the long ball or second ball, and he didn't compress into the middle to offer better cover. So once the long ball was played, Skrtel was left stranded (although there is a debate as to whether he should have went for the ball given the 1v2 situation in the first place - but he was placed under pressure and the back line wasn't organised enough to see the danger), and Sakho wasn't behind him to cover any flick on - as a result, Gayle had a huge amount of space to control the ball into and get a shot off





It was a lapse in concentration, a reverting to habit, and a lack of focus in the dying minutes that did us in, rather than anything tactical that Rodgers set out to do, or failed to do, contrary to some opinions here.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #135 on: May 9, 2014, 05:37:41 pm »
I think you're dead right (as usual) Vic, but it wouldn't surprise me if next season we're a little more cynical in our defending in the second half. Not quite Leeds in the 60's and 70's, but less like the overenthusiastic 10 year olds high on Vimto and DibDabs

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i know hindsight is a bitch but if Moses scores that goal Stevie Wonder could score and we win 4-3 do we still have this chagrin about Agger not coming on?

I do however agree as someone said we attack like Brazil and defend like a sunday league pub team. So next season the defence needs to be more secure but hopefully not to the detriment of our attack.

We need a fine balance which is easier said than done.
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Offline sattapaartridge

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #136 on: May 9, 2014, 05:55:11 pm »
if you were going to take stevie off, who was coming on? seriously, who? for me, our bench has failed us in the last 2 games. we have no options to change a game. Sterling and Sturridge came off and coutinho and moses came on. Moses. Aspas, Alberto. Rubbish.

We could have probably put agger on instead of moses earlier on, to keep what we had at 3-1. but the swing was in full effect.

i take my hat off to the selhurst park crowd, they really really helped the players in this comeback. we caved in to the pressure and the disappointment of the chelsea loss was apparent. we will need to finish the season off strongly to set ourselves up for a good campaign next year. but next year....hopefully we'll get some rotation.
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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #137 on: May 9, 2014, 05:57:18 pm »
PoP!  Good to see you back.

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #138 on: May 9, 2014, 06:03:14 pm »
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #139 on: May 9, 2014, 06:16:58 pm »
if you were going to take stevie off, who was coming on?

Agger f.e. but overall I think this isn't even the question as a decision like this could cause even more problems than solving it right and there. Remember when Rafa took off Torres, Bolton away, big chance for the title, end of a long season, players tired etc... pretty similar situation I think which had massive consequences to come..
« Last Edit: May 9, 2014, 06:24:14 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #140 on: May 9, 2014, 06:22:44 pm »
if you were going to take stevie off, who was coming on? seriously, who? for me, our bench has failed us in the last 2 games. we have no options to change a game. Sterling and Sturridge came off and coutinho and moses came on. Moses. Aspas, Alberto. Rubbish.

We could have probably put agger on instead of moses earlier on, to keep what we had at 3-1. but the swing was in full effect.

i take my hat off to the selhurst park crowd, they really really helped the players in this comeback. we caved in to the pressure and the disappointment of the chelsea loss was apparent. we will need to finish the season off strongly to set ourselves up for a good campaign next year. but next year....hopefully we'll get some rotation.

Coutinho. Then push Lucas back to where Gerrard was. Less counter-attacking speed, but more defensive solidity:

Mignolet
Johnson----Skrtel----Sakho----Flanagan
Lucas
Coutinho----Allen
Sterling
Sturridge----Suarez

Or, as Steveeastend said, Agger, and play a 5-3-2, with Sterling and Allen in front of Lucas
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #141 on: May 9, 2014, 06:28:21 pm »
Anyone remember when Rafa subbed Stevie off in a derby, and afterward said that "at one point you have to play more with your head than your heart"?


This says so much about the tragedy in all this, the big heart of Stevie for the club, his team mates and the fact that because of his top talent he always tended to try probably a little too much on his own in some big games which could only happen BECAUSE he cares so much about the club.

Next year will be a big chance again though, I think there is no need to worry for him, he can still win the title, with some top players in only a couple of positions coming in, proper and clever rotation from Rodgers and himself learning the holding role even more everything will be possible.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2014, 06:31:22 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #142 on: May 9, 2014, 06:31:59 pm »
One of the interesting things about the game that I haven't seen talked about much was the way Palace came out in the second half, for me with a completely different set-up than the first half.

First half it looked like they were very rigid, determined to stay behind the ball and frustrate us. In the second they started immediately to open up and try to press on, space suddenly came up all over the field, but particularly in behind and we quickly got two goals. Even after that the chances to score more were very frequent.  Palace didn't suddenly come to life on the 75th minute, they had been playing a more attacking set-up from minute 46.

To be honest at 3-0 and seeing how they had gifted us the space our team loves to own, I was starting to think Pulis was a Liverpool fan.  When he took Puncheon off at 3-0 I was convinced he was tanking - Puncheon has been scoring for fun the last few weeks.

Anyway it is what it is, and sadly the game will go down in folklore for all the wrong reasons.

Meanwhile if you told me in August we would still be in with a shout on the final day, I would have cut your hand off for it -the roller coaster ride does not diminish that.

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #143 on: May 9, 2014, 06:38:18 pm »
This says so much about the tragedy in all this, the big heart of Stevie for the club, his team mates and the fact that because of his top talent he always tended to try probably a little too much on his own in some big games which could only happen BECAUSE he cares so much about the club.

Next year will be a big chance again though, I think there is no need to worry for him, he can still win the title, with some top players in only a couple of positions coming in, proper and clever rotation from Rodgers and himself learning the holding role even more everything will be possible.
Nobody's perfect, and no player on their own can win a game let alone a title. Stevie is the giant on whose backs the rest of the team has stood on this season (and for many before), that we might not quite make it when it seemed like a doable task, is not down to him or any individual.

The mix, the lack of fresh ingredients, the lack of competition for places. That little bit of quality that better players can bring, allied with Brendan's ability to channel talent into brilliance, has to mean bigger and better things to come.

Stevie cannot be the only leader on the field. And talk of this being his last chance is bollix. He can play a good few more years in this role, and maybe next year as he really matures into it, the attacking forays that see him leave his post, will stop, and his ability to control the tempo for 90+ minutes will be what people are talking about.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #144 on: May 9, 2014, 06:39:08 pm »
Nobody's perfect, and no player on their own can win a game let alone a title. Stevie is the giant on whose backs the rest of the team has stood on this season (and for many before), that we might not quite make it when it seemed like a doable task, is not down to him or any individual.

The mix, the lack of fresh ingredients, the lack of competition for places. That little bit of quality that better players can bring, allied with Brendan's ability to channel talent into brilliance, has to mean bigger and better things to come.

Stevie cannot be the only leader on the field. And talk of this being his last chance is bollix. He can play a good few more years in this role, and maybe next year as he really matures into it, the attacking forays that see him leave his post, will stop, and his ability to control the tempo for 90+ minutes will be what people are talking about.

Excellent points.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #145 on: May 9, 2014, 06:44:17 pm »


Stevie cannot be the only leader on the field.

The thing is he has to learn to be a different kind of leader when playing from behind in contrast to trying to be the main player when it comes to deciding games as he was for many years.

I think in those last two games this was a pretty big part of our problems..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline jimbo196843

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #146 on: May 9, 2014, 07:03:54 pm »
Problem was Palace had the momentum and when that happens, with the crowd behind you, it's hard to stop. It only took palace 10 mins to undo us as we did to Milan in 2005. Hindsight is a truly wonderful thing but bottom line is that we are a young team who 10 games ago were in 4th place. Maybe Gerrard was out of position in the last 15 minutes but how many times have we escaped because of him??
Let's enjoy Sunday and give the team, and the manager, the respect they deserve

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #147 on: May 9, 2014, 07:23:10 pm »
The thing is he has to learn to be a different kind of leader when playing from behind in contrast to trying to be the main player when it comes to deciding games as he was for many years.

I think in those last two games this was a pretty big part of our problems..
Yeah but who among us doesn't see him picking the ball up 30 yards out and driving one into the back of the net to make it 4-3, in those last few minutes on Monday?  It's in his DNA to think he can do that - which is the reason why he has done it so many times.

Would have been nice, out of position or not!

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #148 on: May 9, 2014, 07:28:55 pm »
Yeah but who among us doesn't see him picking the ball up 30 yards out and driving one into the back of the net to make it 4-3, in those last few minutes on Monday?  It's in his DNA to think he can do that - which is the reason why he has done it so many times.

Would have been nice, out of position or not!

With 33 he isn't the players he was a couple of years ago but in parts of games he still does it the way he did a few years ago. For example he is up the pitch almost every free kick which is pretty unusual for a holding midfielder, as it will make the team more vulnerable on the counter, but not unusual for Steven Gerrard. The question will be how much of Steven Gerrard will help the team and how much of the team should be in Gerrards play in order to bring the best outcome for the team which will help him then to win the silverware he deserves.

So overall I think that at his age the more he serves the team the more he will benefit from that..
« Last Edit: May 9, 2014, 07:32:35 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #149 on: May 9, 2014, 07:39:56 pm »
With 33 he isn't the players he was a couple of years ago but in parts of games he still does it the way he did a few years ago. For example he is up the pitch almost every free kick which is pretty unusual for a holding midfielder, as it will make the team more vulnerable on the counter, but not unusual for Steven Gerrard. The question will be how much of Steven Gerrard will help the team and how much of the team should be in Gerrards play in order to bring the best outcome for the team which will help him then to win the silverware he deserves.
I think if another player could hit those shots, he might leave it alone. If Henderson, Allen, Coutinho or Lucas could strike the ball the way he once did, I think he lets that side of his game go. The same as he doesn't mind Suarez taking free-kicks.

I think its natural that he just sees it as a natural way to dig yourselves out of a hole, because he has done that so many times. Its not about seeking glory, for him, its a practical way of bringing a big gun to the fight.

I mentioned before the Norwich game that I wondered if it might better suit us once Henderson got suspended to have Lucas play CDM and Stevie play the more attacking role,  because Lucas gives you discipline in that role, and he simply isn't that great in a more advanced position. 

Took a bit of stick at the time for suggesting that, but as the season has progressed to these last two critical games, I think we might have benefited from doing  that. (Though one valid argument was Gerrards fitness level).

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #150 on: May 9, 2014, 07:41:53 pm »
Would you still play gerrard in that role?

Yep. Next season he will understand the role better, and we will probably have an attacking mid with a wallop of a shot to do the job Gerrard used to do.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #151 on: May 9, 2014, 07:46:13 pm »


I mentioned before the Norwich game that I wondered if it might better suit us once Henderson got suspended to have Lucas play CDM and Stevie play the more attacking role,  because Lucas gives you discipline in that role, and he simply isn't that great in a more advanced position. 

Took a bit of stick at the time for suggesting that, but as the season has progressed to these last two critical games, I think we might have benefited from doing  that. (Though one valid argument was Gerrards fitness level).

A lot of people were thinking along this argument, I was suggesting it in one post as well, but overall it it had to be always theoretical only as it's pretty impossible for Rodgers from a man management point of view to "untrust" the captain in a position he decided to be his best for the upcoming years only a couple of weeks before..

I don't think Rodgers thought of this as an option to go for one second anyway though.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2014, 07:48:22 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Miltonred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #152 on: May 9, 2014, 08:00:34 pm »
A lot of people were thinking along this argument, I was suggesting it in one post as well, but overall it it had to be always theoretical only as it's pretty impossible for Rodgers from a man management point of view to "untrust" the captain in a position he decided to be his best for the upcoming years only a couple of weeks before..

I don't think Rodgers thought of this as an option to go for one second anyway though.
I know, for me though it wasn't as much the "untrust" piece as the need for more attacking capability to replace Henderson - Lucas being a bit more disciplined would be a happy side effect.

Not that it matters, there are, as my old man would say, more ways to kill a cat than stuffing its arse with strawberries, and Brendan knows the players and the plan, which makes him uniquely placed to make those choices!

Offline vicgill

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #153 on: May 9, 2014, 08:41:50 pm »
I think you're dead right (as usual) Vic, but it wouldn't surprise me if next season we're a little more cynical in our defending in the second half. Not quite Leeds in the 60's and 70's, but less like the overenthusiastic 10 year olds high on Vimto and DibDabs

Thank you, Great I would really like to see that, have you been away ?
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Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #154 on: May 9, 2014, 08:46:52 pm »
.

Here is the breakdown of the equaliser, in three key points:

1) There was no pressure on the Palace defender
2) Because there was no pressure on the Palace defender, the Liverpool defence should have dropped to the 18 automatically (they dropped eventually, but the Palace player had extra touches and was able to play the ball before they got to the line)
3) Skrtel was left in a 1v2 situation. Sakho was marking nobody, and didn't drop in behind to sweep up the long ball or second ball, and he didn't compress into the middle to offer better cover. So once the long ball was played, Skrtel was left stranded (although there is a debate as to whether he should have went for the ball given the 1v2 situation in the first place - but he was placed under pressure and the back line wasn't organised enough to see the danger), and Sakho wasn't behind him to cover any flick on - as a result, Gayle had a huge amount of space to control the ball into and get a shot off



[img]https://31.media.tumblr.com/a74dbdb82ffae8231c7a84c4c39a4e38/tumblr_n5bejau8M21sf5t8bo1_500.png[/img


I don't understand this bit. Is it not better to challenge for the ball higher up the pitch? It would have to be one hell of a pass or flick on to get it to one of their men in between our defence and keeper. Would you not want your keeper to come into that space and boot it away if necessary?

Would it have been better if the back four had stood their ground here?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #155 on: May 9, 2014, 08:58:58 pm »
I don't understand this bit. Is it not better to challenge for the ball higher up the pitch? It would have to be one hell of a pass or flick on to get it to one of their men in between our defence and keeper. Would you not want your keeper to come into that space and boot it away if necessary?

Would it have been better if the back four had stood their ground here?

Basic trigger for any back four to know when to drop and when to step - if the ball is under pressure in the other half, step up. If not, immediately drop 5-10 yards.
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Offline cowtownred

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #156 on: May 9, 2014, 09:05:39 pm »
Off topic.... but to PoP,  would you consider doing a few Q's/A's  for the site during the close season?

I'd love to hear your opinions about transfers,  how we step up next season etc etc..

Offline outlaw_nas

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #157 on: May 9, 2014, 09:14:45 pm »

Yep. Next season he will understand the role better, and we will probably have an attacking mid with a wallop of a shot to do the job Gerrard used to do.
Which other area would you improve?

Offline TSC

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #158 on: May 9, 2014, 09:18:26 pm »
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here (much) is the fact that realistically we could have been about 7-0 up before they got a goal.  That scoreline sounds silly I know but I thought we'd two cert pen's turned down in the first half.  And also the two missed by Sakho and Johnson early on where it seemed with both it was easier to score.  We score those and get the pen decisions and we're looking forward to a 'who can score the most' shoot out on Sunday.

All the above really summed up how things have turned over a fairly short period of time, where simultaneously everything has gone for City.  Not just our results or at a more micro level Stevie's slip & missed chances/lack of pen calls v Palace, but even the results last weekend resulted in Villa and WHU having nowt to play for.

How quickly things can change in football.

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Re: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3
« Reply #159 on: May 9, 2014, 09:24:05 pm »
Sorry but there is no way Rodgers would lie, just not worth it.

If he told them to press forward for another goal, then blames the players for doing so saying he instructed otherwise, he would loose their respect and with it any chance of winning anything with those players.

Questioning the reasons behind what Rodgers did or didn't do is one thing, accusing him of lying is quite another. Surely he has done enough for us this season to at least have earned that modicum of respect, no?

I think that's fair enough. Please consider any such direct statements or insinuations on my part recanted.
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