Topic: Round Table Fulham 1-0 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

So the biggest single thing for me was that this was the game that heralded the beginning of the end for Carra's regular playing career as a 1st teamer. In the past he'd have been a shoo-in. Even recently, if he hadn't been unfit, I think he would've played but Kenny choosing to keep the same central pairing sent out a clear message I think.

Martin Jol finally wins against us, and again we play a London team in white and get a player sent off in that area of the pitch and lose. But this was oh so more frustrating. Especially with the other teams around us in the table doing well over the weekend.

I can see why the ref showed the red but there was no common sense in it at all. Jay had clearly played the ball. I'm not sure Luis was offside for his wonder goal that wasn't and I'm not sure 4-3-3 suited us all the time.
When we went down to 10 men, we let them have too much time on the ball around the centre circle, Fulham, when warmed up, pass very well and although we were let down by a silly goal to concede, Glen Johnson was at fault for me, shouldn't have let Murphy get so much space to shoot.

Carroll? Beginning to settle in?
Other thoughts?

[Azi]

for me Carroll brought nothing yes he won the ball a coupla times, but he got all in Suarez space he didn't know whether to run towards or away from him for me he would have made a better impact coming on as a sub. Maxi and Suarez have that understanding i don't know why they just do Bellamy was good Enrique for me had a stormer for me our back for is now settled for years now the negatives our midfield was not there we're use to high pressing tempo it just never happened three match ban for speo now interesting to see who comes in  the sending off 5 years ago wouldn't have been a red now its a red it was a proper tackle for me it was the follow through which has done him

[SMD]

The referee was awful, we should've had a penalty, it shouldn't have been a red and Suarez' goal was onside.

Now that I've gotten that out the way, it doesn't really matter that Friend had a mare. We should've won regardless. We should've dealt with Fulham's pressure and not wilt in the last few minutes. Again we're hitting the woodwork - at what point do you stop saying 'what if...'? We have a problem with our finishing, it's ridiculous. Either we're not creating clear enough chances (debatable) or we're not clinical enough in front of goal (no argument from me).
Carroll was okay but he still doesn't look happy. He should've started on the bench in hindsight and had either Dirk or Maxi on from the start. I wanted Carroll to do well but honestly that's something that's more hope than expectation. I don't know what the answer is, there. Downing is yet to settle and we seem to do better with movement than pinpoint balls. Fulham were far more reserved this season than last but that should've meant we could build on our terms. We looked okay but Fulham always seemed to pose a threat on the counter. Lucas was a big loss as well. Spearing did his best and I think our problems stemmed from unfamiliarity in the middle rather than glaring weaknesses.

It's hard to take after schooling Chelsea twice and making City sweat. Reminds us of the good old days of the mid 90s when we'd regularly beat everyone in the top half (except United) and view Highfield Road with trepidation.

Short term, it's a setback and makes it difficult to push for top 4. It makes our head to head results with the rest of the top 7 all the more important.
Long term, it shows we still need additions, not replacements. Lucas needs a partner in midfield that complements and suitably replaces him. You know, someone like Javi Martinez. We need someone up front who can either do what Suarez does or finish what Suarez does. With Spearing and Lucas out, next week our midfield basically picks itself. Downing, Adam and Henderson have to be able to strike a balance between defence and attack, something they've struggled with as they've started their Liverpool careers. The biggest problem is, though, it's the same old problems surfacing. And what can you say or do that hasn't already come up? We don't take our chances, we give away sloppy goals and we make our own shitheap to jump into.

We need to be able to perform under adversity. Otherwise we won't get anywhere.

[Aristotle]

We need to be able to perform under adversity. Otherwise we won't get anywhere.

That's my biggest beef with our current team. My dad always told me that Liverpool were the most dangerous when a goal down, it was something we had in the 08/09 but now once we concede we might as well make subs to avoid injuries as we aren't going to score anymore.

[Danyaals Kop]

Forget taking your chances. Suarez did and it was ruled offside. I would have taken a 1-0 from Craven Cottage any day.

And btw, 12 times we have hit the woodwork. 12 times.

Kevin Friend is pathetic. Whatever happened to benefit of the decision when the linesman made that call ? We got few or probably none of the 50/50 fouls and then Spearing sent off for what seemed at first, a legitimate tackle. Senderos and Dempsey could have been off.

It might sound hypocritical on our part but Rodwell did get sent off for something similar, no ? I think if he got his decision reversed, we should appeal as well.

Anyway, performance wise we were good. I thought it was good football and though there were few leaks in defence, we didn't miss Lucas that much. Spearing was having a good game, Adam was supporting him and playing deeper ( fans still having a go ? Just because of a few misplaced passes ) and Henderson was brilliant for me.

Bellamy was giving the Fulham defence problems with his pace and if he had gone down like most players do when Dempsey was all over his face, easily could have given us the advantage but fair play to him.

Pepe, Pepe, Pepe. Just when he seems to become a goalkeeping god and is finally getting those plaudits, he fucks it up again. I'll have to say the Johnson takes a lot of the blame as well but nothing can be done about it now.

Agger and Skrtel were solid enough for me and José had a good game. Only thing I would like to see more of his, is he runs into the box when forward.

Suarez. Brilliant player, no doubt. BUT I think his reputation is having an influence on the game and referees in particular. You just need to look at the way he plays that it simple strikes you that there is a good chance he will win something for the team, that he will create a chance. The way he drivels around a defender, making him twist and everything, beautiful. Unfortunately, referees think he is playacting. I think the defenders are the ones who are taking most advantage of this. The way I see it, and it may be a bit controversial, but Suarez does overreact a bit too much when fouled in the beginning. Just tell him to get on with the game, lad. Defenders notice that he doesn't have the protection of the referee and start to batter him but referees think he's still diving and shit. Well, you know what refs.... Fuck you.

Carroll is now really getting on me nerves. Looked good early on but then lost it. I believe in him but we need a goalscorer. Fine, future development and he will come good but what about NOW ??!!! Stick him in the reserves then. Kelly will also come good, Robinson and Flanno will also come good but about the present ? I mean, only two teams have scored LESS then us. Seriously, you have on the bench a player who has scored 10 goals in 9 games in Maxi. A player who performs consistently yet isn't rewarded with a start and that is where Kenny takes the blame yesterday.

Expectations were too high considering wins successive wins against Chelsea and a very good performance against City, plus our good away from, and they had every right to be. Eventually, complacency got the better of us.

First loss since September.

Onwards and upwards from here. Bring on QPR at Anfield.

[Corkboy]

Just for a little change....

I have a buddy who is a Fulham ST holder, lives within walking distance of the ground and has been watching them since they were in the division below. Incidentally, he had tickets for their Europa final but missed his flight with a hangover. Anyway, he was at the game last night and I asked him to do a sort of Aprés Spyin' Kop. By the way, he knows he's biased but then so are we.

Anyway, the following are his impressions without any comment from me.


Reina was clearly at fault for the goal.

We are dirty bastards, notably Suarez, Adam, Spearing and Bellamy.

Adam was better and more mobile than he thought he would be, good player.

Dempsey was lucky to stay on the pitch, as was Senderos.

Spearing definitely had to go, the tackle was right in front of him and he immediately got to his feet to scream abuse at the ref and Spearing. He thought the same on watching a replay later.

We defended quite well, although he thought there was space out wide which Fulham didn't use as they have very little pace.

Suarez is a smashing player and a right cunt. He actually thinks Suarez could be a liability, given how early in the game he was moaning, sulking, howling, charging into everyone looking for frees, hammering the ground in frustration. He thinks Suarez gets less help from refs than he ought, for that very reason, the Boy Who Cried Wolf syndrome.

He thought Fulham played ok, although Murphy was poor until the sending off (he's a Murphy fan in general). Fulham defended fine, as he thought they would once Carroll was on the team (I mentioned this view of his in my commentary). He thought Carroll was shocking, looked bereft of confidence, galloping around aimlessly and didn't look like he knew what he was doing.

Henderson was better than he thought he would be but if we had started with Suarez up front and Maxi/Downing and Bellamy on the wings, we would have murdered them, incomprehensible decision by Kenny.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

That's my biggest beef with our current team. My dad always told me that Liverpool were the most dangerous when a goal down, it was something we had in the 08/09 but now once we concede we might as well make subs to avoid injuries as we aren't going to score anymore.

Yeah, just like we didn't against the league leaders.  And just like we were pegged back and then gave up against Chelsea.  You know what, if you read half the utter shite on this site you'd never believe that we were unbeaten for eleven games before last night.

[SMD]

Yeah, just like we didn't against the league leaders.  And just like we were pegged back and then gave up against Chelsea.  You know what, if you read half the utter shite on this site you'd never believe that we were unbeaten for eleven games before last night.

I think he makes the wrong point but there is something in it. We've shown quite quickly under Kenny that we've the ability to go toe to toe with the best in the league (hopefully that bodes well for our reintroduction to European competition) but under the same circumstances, we seem to falter against weaker opposition. Spurs aside, our struggles come from an inability to kill off the sorts of teams who look for a result against us rather than a performance. We didn't give up yesterday, just like we didn't give up against Swansea or Norwich. Arguably we played better in those games than we did against Wolves, where we won.

I hate to compare us to United again but look at them at Villa Park. They weren't particularly good (I'd argue they played better against City at home) but they created a chance that honestly you shouldn't be missing and even though it was a defender, they took that chance. Carroll had a brilliant chance but his positioning was such that he ended up having to stretch and could only put it straight at Schwarzer. Now you can't make the argument that Phil Jones is more a natural finisher than Andy Carroll, regardless of your opinion of the Geordie. So what is it?

In my opinion, I don't support Andy Carroll FC so as much as I want him to succeed, bigger picture is we need another striker. I don't think he needs to be sold and I definitely don't think he's a donkey but he's under massive pressure and Dirk is at the stage when he should be phased out of the first team - and looks like he is. Short term, another signing is the only answer but long term I'm confident Carroll will come good once he hones his game intelligence. He doesn't have the instinct the likes of Fowler were born with to sniff out goals but with his attributes, he'll be fine in the future. 22 is young for the kind of striker he is, unfortunately the price tag and the club's ambitions aren't helping him.

Given the rumours that we're looking at forwards for January, I'd argue that Kenny probably knows this anyway and it's just something we'll have to write off for the time being as growing pains.

[Aristotle]

Yeah, just like we didn't against the league leaders.  And just like we were pegged back and then gave up against Chelsea.  You know what, if you read half the utter shite on this site you'd never believe that we were unbeaten for eleven games before last night.

Not the point and you know it. We always play well against the big teams, and always have. Stoke in the LC is the only game this season where we have actually won, after conceding first and that's a fact regardless of any previous form.

Stoke away - they scored first, we lost
Spurs away - they scored first, we lost (exception being 2 red cards)
Fulham away - they scored first, we lost
City at home - they scored, we drew and our goal came off a deflection

That's 4 league games were we've conceded first and a whopping 1 point. The Chelsea game is the only exception where we scored again after going back on even terms. Sunderland, Norwich and the Mancs we scored first, conceded and hit a brick wall. We were better, but once the goal came against us that was it. We looked shaky from the back to our strikers up top. We aren't going for the jugular when we go ahead, we don't fight back (well enough) when we concede a goal. Are you seriously arguing against that?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Not the point and you know it. We always play well against the big teams, and always have. Stoke in the LC is the only game this season where we have actually won, after conceding first and that's a fact regardless of any previous form.

Stoke away - they scored first, we lost
Spurs away - they scored first, we lost (exception being 2 red cards)
Fulham away - they scored first, we lost
City at home - they scored, we drew and our goal came off a deflection

That's 4 league games were we've conceded first and a whopping 1 point. The Chelsea game is the only exception where we scored again after going back on even terms. Sunderland, Norwich and the Mancs we scored first, conceded and hit a brick wall. We were better, but once the goal came against us that was it. We looked shaky from the back to our strikers up top. We aren't going for the jugular when we go ahead, we don't fight back (well enough) when we concede a goal. Are you seriously arguing against that?

What percentage of games that teams concede first in get turned around?  You have only four games there on which to make your case.  In two of those games we were either down to 10 men or very soon would be.  Which leaves you a Stoke game which we dominated and a game against the runaway leaders.  Hardly compelling evidence on which to build a case. 

[SMD]

We were pegged back from winning positions 3 times, Aristotle. Sunderland, Norwich and Manchester United.

We had one goalless draw and the other matches we failed to score in, we lost.

Honestly it's just a sign of inconsistency and poor finishing rather than lack of fortitude.

[Aristotle]

What percentage of games that teams concede first in get turned around?  You have only four games there on which to make your case.  In two of those games we were either down to 10 men or very soon would be.  Which leaves you a Stoke game which we dominated and a game against the runaway leaders.  Hardly compelling evidence on which to build a case.

After the Spurs loss, it was 2/21 for us. So I assume that now it stands at 3/26. I can only assume that's quite low, since I can't be arsed looking at comparisons. 

We were pegged back from winning positions 3 times, Aristotle. Sunderland, Norwich and Manchester United.

We had one goalless draw and the other matches we failed to score in, we lost.

Honestly it's just a sign of inconsistency and poor finishing rather than lack of fortitude.

Maybe this is all lost in translation what I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm just a fucking idiot, which would hardly be news, but whatever the phrase for it. Fortitude, winning mentatily, confidence, self-belief et al. We lack it and it's obvious.

I said as much in the summer.

I don't see the need to buy every "superstar" out there, but I see the appeal of established internationals and league winners. As much as I hate using the Mancs in comparison, they've done it with the most success in recent years so they are by standard the comparison. They did buy their diamonds in the rough like Ronaldo and Rooney who became "superstars".

But they also bought established players like Ruud van Nistelrooy and Jaap Stam. Stam came to them after winning the Dutch league and being highly sought after the '98 World Cup. He was crucial in their league and CL wins during his time. Van Nistelrooy was bought for what 20m? He won the golden boot two years in a row, and the league with PSV and he ended up breaking records on an almost weekly basis for them in his first seasons.

And that's what I want to see from us. I don't remember Vince Lombardi's quote word for word and I'm to lazy to google it, but as he famously said, winning is a habit. Now I do see the benefit in the likes of Downing and Adam, they add something new to the squad I just don't feel that's what we need right now. You said LFC make superstars it doesn't buy them, but through the years all our superstars have been accompanied by winners.

It's like someone compared us buying Connor Wickham to us buying Ian Rush was bought as a teenager and didn't have that impressive of a record and turned out to be our highest ever goal scorer. But the difference is Rushie played in a team that had won the European Cup, and the league, and just about everything out there. A team that played thinking they had the God given right to win every game they played. And for me that's the type of players we need. Success breeds success. Successful people associate with successful people. Successful people learn from successful people.

And I still think it's a valid point to make. Andy Carroll has had a hell of a rough time, injuries aside I think it's mostly down to the situation at hand. If we had bought Andy Carroll (or at-the-time comparison, since he was young at the time) after the 08/09 season it would've meant buying a 35m striker to a team that was 2nd in the league, on the best form it had been in for years and years and a sign of intent. It was a team with a high-flying Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard. Followed by a midfield of Alonso and Mascherano. But he didn't, he came here as the most expensive British player of all time, to a team that was virtually facing relegation, had sold it's best striker in nearly a decade and he was meant to replace him and outdo him, instead of joining up with him. Now I think that coming as a striker with a soul-crushing amount of pressure, it's preferable to join a team like the 08/09 team that scored 77 league goals, to the 09/10 or 10/11 teams who scored 61 and 59 respectively.

I said the same thing after the Spurs game

*random ramblings about the 08/09 season*

And I know it's a bit of an unfair comparison but it was that combination of determination and cool that we're lacking. And it may come in a year or two when they've settled in, but when your midfield 4 and front two have played less than 10 games together it's hardly surprising that they don't have a telekenetic understanding. And that's what still puzzles me is how we keep sticking with the same team as if almost to force that upon them. And yeah hindsight is aways 20/20 but even before the match I felt nervous seeing the starting line-up.
And even though I admire Kenny's attitude of "let them worry about us" that's just not something we have right now. With pace to burn and everything to gain Spurs were always gonna attack us from the go and a midfield of Adam-Lucas vs. Parker and Modric was a real danger. Adam was never gonna outrun Parker or intercept Modric's passes and Bale vs. Henderson and Skrtel was winning the lottery for Redknapp. I thought Suarez had an abysmal day, bit like Torres of yesteryear when the frustration of being reduced to long ball chasing was there for all to see.
I thought Carroll was a bit awkward the first half, but he did make an effort in the 2nd. He's becoming a bit better at this team player thingy. Chasing down players, back tracking and such and still needs fine tuning. But he's still only half the man Kuyt and Bellamy are in that aspect of his game. As Yorky mentioned, that moment where Suarez was absolutely livid having closed Kaboul down and forcing him to play a ball into an open space only to look back and seeing Adam doing his best Joe Cole impression and being 10 yards behind pace.
We needed something else. Adam and Henderson are good on the ball, but winning it back is hardly their strongest asset. And that's why I still don't get why Kuyt or even Maxi didn't play. Kuyt with his Border Collie instinct of chasing down everything that moves and Maxi's game intelligence that lets him stay one move ahead of the opposition in his head.

And at the risk of being hounded, how far can Kenny's winning mentality take these players. Now I know he is a fantastic motivator and personally I'd follow him blindly, regardless of what he asked of me. It reminds me of Shanklyboy's quote. And that's all fine and well, but there is also a certain element of success breeds success imho. As much as it pains me to say, it's what Ferguson does very well in installing that mentality, but still doesn't come with in reaching distance of sir Bob. When you have a team who has done it all and believes they can do it again, it's hard not to get "infected" with that mentality. But if we look at the players we've lost and those that replaced them they aren't exactly developing chronic back pain from putting medals around their necks. Now that's not saying they won't, I'm fairly certain (ok hopeful) many of them will during their time here.

But as it stands. Suarez, Coates, Johnson, Agger and Skrtel are the only players to have won a league campaign, Johnson being the only one in the squad to have done it in England. Gerrard and Carra are the only ones with a CL medal. And are along with Reina and Kuyt (Bellamy made the bench) to have played a CL final. Suarez and Coates are also the only ones to have achieved international success and Kuyt being the only one to play a World Cup final.

Ability aside. Out of those gone that had won major medals before or during their time at the club or have gone to win after they were sold in the past 3 summer transfer windows alone are: Jovanovic, Mascherano, Meireles, Alonso, Hyypia, Arbeloa, Cole and Kyrgiakos. And to that list we might add Benayoun and (haha) Poulsen, captains of their respective national teams. So the players we've lost/sold are if looked at today 3 CL winners, 2 World Cup winners, and until Messi was made captain of Argentina, 3 national team captains, a former captain in Hyypia and IIRC at least Soto played once as team captain. And then Jovanovic, Meireles, Cole and Kyrgiakos had all won a league compeitition with only Mascherano having won anything of note since leaving.

And regardless of how good they were, if they wanted to leave or not these men knew success and then even if not the most successful in history they lead by example such as Kyrgiakos. And since this was done in 3 parts I've gotten a little side-tracked. My point simply is that we lack pure-bred winners, apart from Suarez, Gerrard and Carragher and although not the medals to show for it, Bellamy and arguably Reina and Kuyt.

Despite their talents Adam, Carroll and Enrique have only won promotion in the league and individual awards, Downing has cup medals and Henderson has player of the year at Sunderland. It will take time to instill that mentality of playing every game with the belief they have a God given right to win it. And I'm a bit worried about that in all honesty as I don't feel it's time that we have.

Call it what you want, I can't find the word for it. But there's some x-factor that's missing to our team, and I don't think anyone can deny that.

[SMD]

We have Suarez, who is being unfairly singled out by referees at the moment. We have Bellamy, who is a integral member of the squad even if he doesn't start. We have Gerrard whose fitness issues are depriving us of someone who can turn games.

The problem isn't 'x-factor' it's consistency. You'd expect the likes of Downing and Adam to create chance after chance so that if Carroll only has a 1 in 10 conversion rate, he's getting 10-15 chances to score. Adam's slowly getting there but Downing hasn't. Henderson has been asked to play in 3 or 4 different roles so far since joining us - right midfield, central midfield in a 2, attacking midfield in a 3, defensive midfield in a 3...I think he's settling in okay. But the consistency isn't there until they're comfortable with their understandings.

I think we're so used to having a few players with moments of magic that it's a struggle to adapt to expecting a different sort of machine.

We've all got our opinions on who should come in and who should start but unless you get someone in who is one of Europe's best, you're just going to have the same issues.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

After the Spurs loss, it was 2/21 for us. So I assume that now it stands at 3/26. I can only assume that's quite low, since I can't be arsed looking at comparisons. 

When have you arbitrarily started this comparison?

[Yorkykopite]

The last two league games have yielded one point. I've enjoyed both of them.

We weren't brilliant against Fulham but we were pretty good I thought. We have pace throughout the team at last, there was zero hoofing from the back and we played swift, attractive football for long periods. Had Henderson's superb effort dipped in we'd be talking not just about three more away points but about a potential goal of the season (the technique to get that ball into a zone that the keeper simply had no chance of reaching speaks volumes about the lad's ability). Suarez almost scored another wonder-goal too, and would have done if the linesman hadn't fucked up.

And there were two excellent penalty claims.  The first saw Hangeland utterly bamboozled by Suarez to the point where he lost sight of the ball and decided, through blind panic, to take the man instead. Even then Suarez, who hates going down if there's a sniff of reaching the ball, almost completed his enforced tour of the entire friggin' penalty box to get to the ball. The thing that stopped him was Hangeland's out-of-control body, followed by Hangeland's flailing elbow. It's no defence for the centre back to say he impeded Suarez because he was confused.

The second pen was obviously on Charlie Adam as he shimmied past Senderos and was about to pull the trigger with his sweet left foot. Such was Charlie's momentum that the foul was initiated on the edge of the box and completed when he was a good yard inside it. Given the deliberate cheating by Senderos, who knew exactly what he was doing, the fair and necessary reward would have been a pen and a red card. No one would have batted an eyelid against such a just decision.

Unlike the sending off of Jay Spearing which was a decision made by someone who can never have played football. I prefer midfielders to stay on their feet and nick the ball but there was nothing dangerous about the tackle at all. The only player in the collision who left the ground with both feet before the ball was taken was the Fulham lad. The red was outrageous.

It came at a bad time for Liverpool because Charlie Adam tends to fade away around the 75 minute mark anyway.

Kenny put a good team out. My only complaint was that Downing didn't come on sooner and that he chose a stiff to replace Carroll instead of Maxi Rodriquez.

But I do get enjoyment from watching the team now. Improvement is needed (although in Henderson it's happening with each game) and more composure (and luck) in front of goal. I also think that if money is to be spent over New Year then we need to get a proper replacement for Lucas. And when Charlie gets tired - as he always, always does - let's put Shelvey on or something.

[timmyonions]

I thought we played ok last night.Not our best performance mind you but Kenny has them playing a brand of football i`m enjoying very much.I`m not normally one to moan about refs,over 90 minutes you should do enough to get a result but last night i made an exception.Jay did win the ball but was a little rash but not a red,noi way.Maybe a yellow but not a red.That changed thr whole shape of our side and we couldn`t dominate as we`d been doing second half.I`m confident we`d have taken something there had Jay stayed on.Probably three points,definately one.

Carroll will have to adapt to the style Kenny wants.I`m willing to support the lad for as long as it takes.I believe he can come good and finish some of those many chances the team is making.He`s suffering form confidence right now.This dosen`t just effect his finishing,it also effects his movement,timing etc.He needs a couple of goals,as all strikers in a drought do,but some supporters feel we`re fitting him in the team to the detrement of the side.I don`t believe that,we`re making reasonably good chances,but collectively as a team,we`re not taking them.We keep saying it but someones in for a hiding,i believe it will be warnocks boys on saturday.

The defense is doing well for me.The goal last night was dissappointing but overall we can`t complain.We have one of the best defensive records,if not the best in the league.The back four are settled which is very important going into the busy christmas period.I agree Hinsey we have seen the day when JC is no longer first choice centre back.We knew Kenny would do it when the time is right.I think Carra needs to accept that now.He will be a very important squad player for us this season.

Overall i`m not too concerned.We`re playing well sooner or later it will click.We must be patient.

[Stussy]

Had a day to reflect on this and my rose tinted specs have inevitably sneaked back onto my face.

I've been of the 'we'll start rattling the goals in soon' school of thought, but its getting to the stage now where I'm totally non plussed as to why we haven't been placing it in the net commensurate with our general standard of play and carving out of threats to teams. Its like we're always on the edge of a breakthrough in terms of translating our relative control of games into actual goals and yet we never make it definitive, so there's an air of vulnerability to us in games like this even when we do play well and are offensive and full of threat. However, against Chelsea (twice) and City we had that control and confidence and dominance. So yeah, we hit the big boys and falter against the small, and its going round and round in circles decrying that, same old story etc etc. But in the context of what we're growing into, integrating all these players, coping with serious injuries, I still see positivity in this performance.

So when I put my intestines back inside my stomach after that gutting at the final whistle I see a game that we did 'deserve' to win (yes I know 'deserve' means nothing but you know what I mean). And as non plussed as I am about our bad luck / lack of composure / clinical-ness (take your pick) in front of goal I'm still going for us just being blunted by sods law - which should turn at some stages. The dam will burst kind of thing. Getting into good positions and angles and pressurised assaults has to pay off soon, I just can't believe that it won't.

Reasons to be cheerful:

Skrtel and Agger maintaining their excellent partnership.

A generally positive and assertive attitude - lads playing with their heads up and always forward.

A sense in the cold light of day of continued forward trajectory despite our flaws and bad luck with the penalty and offside decision.

As I said, rose tinted specs, for sure. Nothing is guaranteed, not even an imminent bursting of the dam. But on the whole we are looking like what we are - a team coming together under the auspices of a manager with a positive vision of play. Yeah call it a team in transition and all that. Its unfolding before our eyes.

[Rohit]

I thought our general play in possession wasn't too bad last night and I thought henderson was our best midfielder by a mile and he seems to be growing in confidence. But we generally lacked a cutting edge for me though suarez scored  a great goal and it was wrongly ruled off. But for all the talk of poor finishing I do think the quality of our general chances are poor. City and the other top teams create so many taps while some our players look for glory, adam was a clear example of this and downing at the end versus city where he skied it.

For me we lack a player that can consistently play the front men in on goal and the chances we create are mostly down to suarez individual brilliance. Now with carroll for me he is far too often caught on his heels and doesn't anticipate rebounds or chances that might come his way. You don't need great pace to be a threat and another problem is he rarely goes up to challenge the defenders for balls and is far too weak in a challenge. Sadly with him upfront we look blunt. Carroll should study maxi how he is always on the move to anticipate a chance and generally we had less men in the box than we did against chelsea or even last season. No wonder we have scored less goals.

Our attack needs to be worked on and players need to be told to make that extra pass which secures a goal like bellamy has done with maxi. This is where the quality of the chances created is questioned for me.

Another issue is that how dempsey was allowed to come in between the lines along with dembele and were allowed to attack our back four who generally did well.

Also, its obvious suarez won't get shit from refs, even against stoke he stayed up when he should have gone down and was given a pen. Which makes you wonder why refs think players don't see the need to hit the deck especially when honesty is very rarely rewarded. But maybe if he tried to stay up for a prolonged period his name would be cleared I doubt it though.

Its also obvious that refs aren't going to give us fuck all in terms of decisions but I do think as a team we really shouldn't need to get to the point of blaming a ref and should try to win games in spite of there incompetence and hopefully our generally quality out weighs that.

[steveeastend]

I was kind of confused with the tactic in the first half, did we really play without a clear left midfielder? Have to admit that I didn´t see anything like this before but it did work, although not as good as the 2nd half where I thought we deserved a goal any minute.

But here again comes the biggest concern I have from the first couple of games of the season on, the quality in the final third. We keep on working very hard to press and do everything to bring the ball in the region where it usually hurts the other team. But we don´t have the quality to gain profit, to score out of this and this is mostly due to sloppy passing, rushed shooting or crossing and lacking of game intelligence in order to find the final pass.

Last year, at their ground we showed exactly that and we have to do everything to get back something from this quality in order to start winning games. For this I would love to see Maxi and Bellamy, linking up with Suarez and Kuyt from now on as I think we cannot afford to wait for the likes of Downing and Carroll to finally hit the ground.

In terms of the pure quality of football we weren´t that outstanding against Chelsea and not that bad yesterday but it will be crucial to play our best attacking players to make it happen in the final third which would include Maxi and Bellamy together with Suarez.

Oh well and the referee was clearly shocking, absolutely shocking!!

[Roy of the rovers]

For the first time this season we were genuinely unlucky in my view: Pepe's rare fuck up, Suarez's goal, decision on Adam, decision on Jay, woodwork again. Horrible, horrible

I don't think Carroll suits a narrower 4-3-3 midfield, and I still don't see him and Suarez as a pairing. If we play narrow, then we need Kuyt, Suarez and Bellamy. If we want the width, Downing has to start with Carroll.

It was a big ask for Jay to come into the first team and make the grade, and he didn't, red card notwithstanding. We are going to struggle if he is our best DM. In counterpoint, Hendo was much better.

Shows how much work there still is to do to get to top four. I wasn't sure if we were going to need to reinforce this Jan, but we are.

[leivapool]

So, let's think of the positives:

I personally though Skrtel and Agger were magnificent, they were left exposed by our midfield too often but I thought they were real quality last night.  Someone did something to Skrtel cos he's stepped up.  Always liked him, but he's been excellent recently.  Agger of course is always brilliant.

er, what others are there...............

Enrique was good again.

Suarez never gave up.

Henderson is going to be a beast of a player for us.  Brilliant technique, attitude, intelligence, work ethic.  A gem for the future IMO.

Onwards and hopefully upwards.

Just one negative.................where the f*ck was Maxi.  Bad decision

[Corkboy]

Unlike the sending off of Jay Spearing which was a decision made by someone who can never have played football. I prefer midfielders to stay on their feet and nick the ball but there was nothing dangerous about the tackle at all. The only player in the collision who left the ground with both feet before the ball was taken was the Fulham lad. The red was outrageous.

Have to pick you up on this, Yorky, because that isn't true. While you may be right that those sorts of challenges should still be in the game, they simply aren't. Refs have been given a clear direction to red card anyone who "endangers the safety" of another player and they seem to be taking a fairly broad view on that. If Dembele hadn't jumped out of the tackle, he was toast. So, like it or not, that is the position in modern top flight football.

You're right, anyone who has played the game has had to jump out of a lunge tackle, just in case. My favourite was to lean down to the player after and tell him that the next time he came in like that, I'd be waiting for him. Usually did the trick.

[TepidT2O]

Why wasn't senderos sent off?...


He stopped Adam from having a shot on goal....he wasn't the last man, but that isn't the rule (no matter what the commentators say).
It was a cynical "professional foul" with no attempt made to the ball and a calculated risk to do it outside the area.
A balatent red for me.

[steveeastend]

Why wasn't senderos sent off?...

Exactly! Not the only shocking decision...

[richmiller1]

Is it possible to have less luck in a game of football than that? I felt absolutely violated at the final whistle, no chance we deserved to loose that, even a draw would have seemed harsh.

The performance was a little disjointed at times and to be honest we didn't exactly serve up many golden opportunities but i'm with Kenny when he says we still did more than enough to win. In short the performance was ok and certainly nothing like as bad as some have made out. 433 didn't exactly work perfectly, the gap between the back four and the midfield trio was gaping at times but given the change in shape and personel things could have been much worse.

The refereeing was just horriffic. Mr Friend can consider himself added the list alongside Reiley, Webb and the rest of the bent fuckers.

On the the subject of individual players I thought everybody acquited themselves reasonably well. Reina let himself down for the goal andJohnson could probably have offered more going foward ( and in preventing the goal) but other than that I have no fingers to point. We just lack a toughness at the moment, nobody, including us, seems to believe we are going to go on and win in these sort of games anymore. Henderson and Downing appear to be cursed given the bad luck they suffer with strikes on goal. Spearing was a touch unlucky to get a straight red but i've seen worse cards granted. What we do in central midfield for the next three weeks is anyones guess. Hopefully given the lack of goals we'll just go without a defensive midfielder and cut loose a little.

A final quick word on Carroll as the knives seem to be out in force again.........I think he did alright. Granted he is in the team to be a threat and we didn't see all that much from him in that respect. He's clearly playing within himself a little at the moment, It would be nice to see a little more fight in him at times. However, all that said, the rest of his game was pretty impressive. For a player derrided by some as pub footballer he didn't half bring out some glorious touches yestereday, retained possession well and linked up with those around him as well as he has done since the Norwich game. He needs to step it up undoubtably but I still see more than enough in him to believe he'll get there, and frankly the team need to step it up a notch when it comes to providing chances for him and Suarez and feed off. Its worth noting that given the two charges now faced by Suarez there is a pretty significant chance we could be relying on Carroll very heavilly for the next two months, so writing the boy off at this stage really isn't going to help anyone.

Onwards and upwards. If nothing else Downing and Henderson must now be due a helpful deflection or two.

[Gnurglan]

Our attacking game needs to improve and fast. Defensively I think we're fine. Pepe made a rare mistake, but it's symptomatic that we can't afford a single mistake because we are so toothless up front. It puts our defence under so much pressure. And it's the story of our season so far. Our attack, not defence, is costing us points.

Thought it was strange that we had Maxi on the bench again. Given our poor attacking record, that's a mistake. Even more so in hindsight. I also think it's a mistake to play Carroll ahead of Kuyt. Let's go with Suarez, Bellamy, Maxi and Kuyt. It's at least players who won't hide, players who have shown time and again, let be in the past, that they can do it for us.

On a more positive note, our defence continues to do well. Extra praise to Enrique. I admire the way he has managed to fit in and contribute. I also like what I see from Henderson. When our attacking players disappoint us, this young lad has managed to overcome some initial problems. It's totally unexpected for me, but I think now he's an example to follow for Downing and Carroll in particular. We need more players to lead by example.

[sattapaartridge]

Movement was good, we dominated the game and the age old problems come again dont they?

We cant score no matter how many chances we create. Suarez' offside goal was immense. But seriously, we need some of the new players to score. I feel that Downing and more importantly, Carroll need to score to end their goal droughts. I think its playing on their minds and its affecting their confidence.

Hangeland was always going to be a formidable opponent for Carroll, but amazingly, we played to feet, we kept the ball well, we got in their faces.

Spearing played okay until his sending off, but he sure did make some sloppy passes, coupled with Adam playing more sloppy passes, we didnt create as much as we could.

At the bear minimum, we deserved a point and the sending off prevented us from doing so. Uncharacteristically, Reina should have saved that shot, but how many times has he saved our arses?

We will lose more games this season, but if we go down fighting, I wont mind. We need that fighting spirit to win too. I feel that some fans are seeing 4th place slip away from us, but, we have a completely different squad, and fierce competition for that 4th spot. So chill out, let the lads play and get frustrated after 30 games if we're out of it.

Another observation is that we're struggling against the smaller teams. The good thing is, we are picking up points against those at the top, dragging them down to our level

Disappointing overall, but the movement wasn't average.

[Vulmea]

as usual watched a different game to everybody else - thought  a draw would have been fair - but they edged it when we had 10 - hated how open we were at the back - if we looked  like scoring with every attack so did they - they should have scored first but for a great save from Reina - there was a huge Lucas shaped hole infront of the back four and it was there all game - didn't think Spearing and Adam worked at all defensively

Enrique is a great athlete and class defender but he also doesn't look at have much of a brain going forward - got into some great positions and then did little - thought he was almost Pennant like - looked good but did nowt

The ref was biased gave them everything and us nothing all night - another reason why spearing's tackle was just a daft thing to do - giving him the chance to send him off - if Bellamy could get booked for being nutted not once but twice and staying on his feet then anything was possible - the ref also gave that foul on Riise almost straight afterwards - felt like he was deliberately trying to provoke the lad at that point - but I think my full paranoia was showing by then -

thought Fulham were always in the game

Starting to wonder about the trade off between building Carroll up and the disruption in the game - at some point there needs to come a pay off - is that next season?  I appreciate he needs time and he's playing a different game called football now than the route one game he's played his whole career but we have to boost his confidence somehow I'm not sure how we do that without losing more ground - at the moment he couldn't trap a bag of cement - even if  we threw in some long diagonals to the far post I'm not sure he'd be there on his current form -

anyway work in progress but I wish we'd bury some of our goddam chances - at this rate somebody is going to get battered 12-0 when everything we hit flies in

[redhot-robbie]

Until the sending off I think we were the most likley to go on and win it although I noticed a few things throughout the whole game that we need to stop.

If you are crazy enough to watch it back you will see the amount of time we let Danny Murphy have on the ball, something at this level you cant do.  By the time one Adam or Henderson had closed him down he had got the ball into Dempsey and Dimbelle (SP).   I think wee Jay did ok in what he did but he needs to be more disciplined in the Lucas role because those two players should not be getting between our back four and midfield.   

Most teams play with the holding midfielder but Murphy is more creative and we didn't pay him enough respect.  IF for example we said to Jay right you track Murphy and don't give hime the time to play then the ball would never have got to Dempsey and Dimbelle.  That should have been done by someone throughout the game because he really does make them tick.

Another thing is Johnson, and I am not saying this because of the mistake for the goal but I think Kelly is a better pick and right back and a better player than Johnson, Johnson is being picked on reputation rather than ability IMO.

We are work in progress and not much needs to be done for us to make that next step.

[TOMMO86]

All great points above. For me the main reason we lost wasn't the red. They attacked us through the middle all game. They knew Johnson and Enrique would prove a problem for them so went through the middle and they walked it for me. Even when we wen't down to 10 men it was still a 4-4-1 the only player you're taking away from that is a forward yet they still walked through our 4 man midfield. Downing shown some good touches when he come on. I feel Carroll just kills off our potential. a team with Suarez, Bellamy, Maxi, Henderson, Adam, Downing, Enrique all in would bring brilliant "Football" When Carroll plays Suarez tends to drop deep a little and do what the target man should be doing (Lay off then move further upfield) This isn't what Suarez is all about.

[MiserableP15]

He thought Fulham played ok, although Murphy was poor until the sending off (he's a Murphy fan in general). Fulham defended fine, as he thought they would once Carroll was on the team (I mentioned this view of his in my commentary). He thought Carroll was shocking, looked bereft of confidence, galloping around aimlessly and didn't look like he knew what he was doing.

Henderson was better than he thought he would be but if we had started with Suarez up front and Maxi/Downing and Bellamy on the wings, we would have murdered them, incomprehensible decision by Kenny.

Thought your post was very interesting mate. Especially the last bit. I actually thought Carroll had a good game and showed signs of encouraging progress with Suarez, but I was absolutely stunned when I saw the team sheet with him playing over Suarez up top and Maxi in behind. Your mate isn't the only person surprised to see Kenny playing this way (all of my non LFC mates that have an interest are also similarly surprised), although I still am hoping that Kenny has a master plan to bed everyone in and come good towards the latter part of the season.

[Red-juvenated]

Good discussion, expected disappointment, but no need for the doom & gloom.

First game without Lucas, especially as he was the lynchpin that enabled the rest of the team function to their best, was bound to have an effect. We played a cautious and patient game to start with, and though we created so many chances the lack of that killing instinct was due to insecurity (mainly Carroll struggling for form). Security comes with belief in yourself, belief comes with confidence, confidence comes with winning, and all that

This was even more evident AFTER the sending off as we became more defensive and the absence of Lucas was felt even more.

But onwards and upwards, the team need to deal with the changes and  prepare for a win in the next game, then build on it.

[Fuzion6]

I actually thought we played rather well...at times we just toyed with Fulham at will and we created (once again) a ton of chances that either weren't taken or were denied by woodwork / the referee. I didn't think Carroll was that bad either and the 433 was a nice fluid formation. The issue was more defensively and in particular CM where Fulham at times just walked through with the impressive Dembele. Will be interesting how we set up against QPR - Henderson at DM scares me a bit but we should have the ball most the time.

[Brentieke]

Im still pissed off about this.

Im one of the last people on here who go crazy at refs but this was the first time since Benfica away that I cant get the referees out of my mind.

4 key decisions all went against us. The goal, the penalty, our red and Fulham's red for Senderos. Anything that was 50/50 or 60/40 for us, went to them. Noone can deny that.

Now, I've got that out of the away. let me play devil's advocate. Let's say the ref got everything right. We're still amazingly unlucky. On 4 occasions, it was a matter of inches that denied us a goal. Henderson's post, Downing's post, the pen and the Suarez goal we're talking inches. Literally. We had absolutely no luck in this game what so ever.

Compare that to our rivlas for top 4, Spurs who came here a few weeks ago and got every single break imaginable. They're in a spell right now, like we were at the tail end of 08/09, where every break goes in their favor. Penalties given to them, not given to the opposition, imaginary red cards given to the team against them, none for them, keepers making mistakes...

Sometimes in football, you get periods like this when you cant catch a break. And you get periods where everythign goes for you. It's obvious we're in the first category now.

Case in point. We've hit the woodwork 15 times in 18 league and cup games. That's ridiculous. But it's even more striking when you realise Dempsey's strike on Monday was the first time in 18 games an opposing team has hit our posts. The ratio is 15/1. That's insane.

Leave aside all that now though. Onto the game.

And I thought we played well, passed it with style, were dangerous on the break and were postive in our approach. We were missing the final ball though and didnt create enough chances. I've said my piece on Carroll in his thread, but I'd like to add that I thought it was ridiculous how he started this game considering howe we ripped Fulham apart last year playin a certain style of football that we cant play with Carroll in the side.

Im not his biggest fan. Im not Henderson's either. But Henderson was great in this game, energetic, creative and always good on the ball. Him, Enrique and Suarez were our best 3 players. I thought Spearing did well, but he's obviously not as good as Lucas which is understandable. Very unlucky with the red card in my view.

All in all, we were good in my view but not great. But we certainly didnt deserve to lose it. Very unlucky.

[Zlen]

I was ever so slightly disappointed with the team selection prior to the game and pretty much everything I feared from it came to pass. We made Luis, our most potent attacking weapon (a team struggling for goals) less dangerous by playing him off striker. Andy Carroll claimed a starting place based on nothing more then what is now a wild hope of him coming good sooner rather then later. His inclusion meant no place for Maxi Rodriguez but it also meant that Fulham's CB's played against a static, semi-interested striker rather then against a force of nature supported by the most intellingent space creator we have. Sure, in the end we created enough to take something from the game and had it not been for a series of questionble decisions by Mr Friend, we would have, but the feeling remains that we more often then not play a weaker starting eleven then possible and I can't shake this feeling of shackling our flow only to include Carroll. We look, feel, move and play better without him and as I don't automaticaly fabricate emotions towards players once they put on the red shirt, I feel he should have a game or two in reserves and continue having half hour cameos off the bench until further notice.

Henderson on the other hand is rapidly improving his game and I enjoy watching him grow and develop. He had a good game (bit tired towards the end) and that shot was as cheeky and intellingent as they get - loved it.

[Fuzion6]

Just looked at that Henderson shot off the post again and wow...really wish that had gone in. Henderson is really beginning to impress - issue I have is if he is put back into a DM role now we won't be making best use of his energy and creativity. Its like Gerrard deja vu again

[John C]

Where do we start, with so many talking points about a match in which the usually sensible Ray Wilkins said at half time that the ref was having a “good game”.  He may well have been until he allowed Dempsey to remain on the pitch having put his head in to Craig Bellamy’s face. From the moment that confrontation started Bellamy wanted nothing to do with it, he was trying to avoid Dempsey’s rage and the ref’s judgement to book both rather than red-card Dempsey came back to haunt us when he should have been in the shower not the 6-yard box.
I haven’t got a single negative comment to say about Riena spilling the ball since that man has salvaged more points for us than any other player in a red shirt for years.

Immediately after the game there was a suggestion that we shouldn’t blame the ref, I disagree because he cost us a point, if not 3, and not because he dismissed Spearing, I can actually understand that decision. We are only ever going to get 3 points if we learn to score but if the ref balances his decisions Sendoros should have gone for pulling Carroll back having already been booked and our 3 points may have been secured had Suarez be awarded a penalty for obstruction by Hangeland. When Adam was brought down marginally outside the box, if not on the line, some observers may have deemed that as a goal scoring opportunity which could have resulted in a penalty or red card.
The second half display by Kevin Friend was as much as a ‘homer’ display as I’ve ever seen by a ref.
-a dismissal against us
-3 non-dismissals in favour of Fulham
-a disallowed goal against us
-2 potential penalties not awarded to us

My only consolation to Suarez’s disallowed goal which again was another error from the officials is that Hangeland had seen the flag early and did not defend his line as Suarez controlled the ball, so the chances are he may have been positioned to prevent the ball going in.

You have to give Fulham some credit, they defended similarly to Birmingham (away) last season when we struggled to get through them sufficiently. But overall I think Liverpool played well, we dominated possession, carried on controlling a lot of the game even with 10 men and we tried to build up play throughout the 90 minutes. Although the game could be perceived as open, with Fulham having a number of chances, I’ve got no doubt that we played far better with the amount of corners we had evidencing our attack format.

As an admirer of Johnson I was concerned that he was beaten easily on two occasions, although he did loose his footing once.
And as a hopeful of Carroll I’m now ambivalent about how or when we’ll finally see the best of him. He’s getting in to goal scoring positions but there comes a time when he has to start taking his chances. However, I still don’t think the service he gets is inadequate and only the very best strikers in the world can live with 1 or 2 chances a game and take them. I think he requires a higher ratio of chances to start converting – lets keep the faith. But I also think he needs to stand stronger now, too frequently he’s either controlled or left on the floor by the CB’s.
Henderson put in a good display, I think he contributed sufficiently if not significantly. But if we are going to progress we need all of our midfielders to be creating goals or scoring themselves however young, old, inexperienced or ugly they are. It’s a must, so it was disappointing to see his brilliant effort come off the post. I posted last week before it was highlighted on TAW that we are scarce of goals, its not just because we are not getting the very best out of both Suarez and Carroll but we can expect the rest of the team to weigh in with their share. This clearly isn’t an insurmountable problem though as our well documented battering of the woodwork this season proves.

I understand the views of many sensible posters that appear fed up with the club being permanently in transition but sometimes I wonder if football has cursed us since 2005, I don’t recall season after season that’s contains so many decisions that influenced a loss of points – and they don’t always balance out.

We’ve been down heartened over worse performances and losses, we’re playing better than we did in the 18 months prior to Kenny taking over so the platform is still there to build on, we just need the players to deliver the concrete.

[John C]

Enrique is a great athlete and class defender but he also doesn't look at have much of a brain going forward - got into some great positions and then did little -

I think that's a little unfair Vulmea, I think he drives forward well although it has been commented on before that (when playing together) him & Downing could link and overlap a bit better. Its just about game time I think.
Nonetheless, his defending ability is excellent, he's strong on the ball and brilliant at shielding it or winning it back using his body. He did that a couple of times against Fulham.

[gandalf50]

Why wasn't senderos sent off?...


He stopped Adam from having a shot on goal....he wasn't the last man, but that isn't the rule (no matter what the commentators say).
It was a cynical "professional foul" with no attempt made to the ball and a calculated risk to do it outside the area.
A balatent red for me.

Actually before the game last night Neville said exactly that. Last man no longer counts, it`s a clear goalscoring opportunity which should make up the refs mind.
By the way. Is there a seniority rule on posting in this thread? I only see two other posters with less than a thousand posts.

[hedger]

Need to stop the inquests. We dominated possession and didnt take our chances...yet again. We are on the right path and with a bit more tinkering we'll not be far away