Author Topic: How HS2 will tear up rural England  (Read 21326 times)

Online SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2013, 01:42:59 pm »
Is it fuck worth 80 billion though.

It's hardly the bullet train, it's shite. Typical rubbish transport decision by a British government.


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Offline GBF

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2013, 01:56:14 pm »
Is it fuck worth 80 billion though.
It's hardly the bullet train, it's shite. Typical rubbish transport decision by a British government.

the money (which will be of course 10x over when the project is over) and the length to build it are the only strong negatives of this.  Outside England, cost far less and build in far less time.  I bet the tender will go to an ex-Bullingdon.

that said, england needs to update the rail system or just close it completely.  Doing nothing will only drain money out. These days it is cheaper to fly within england that go by train.
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Offline Packalacky

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2013, 07:41:12 am »
I travel a lot on business. 40 minutes could mean

1, Getting home for your kiddies bed time despite having meetings on the other side of the country
2, Spending longer with the client
3, Getting up 40 blissful minutes later when you have a big day ahead!

High speed railways in this country in comparison to those on the continent are poor. Take a TGV from Paris to the South of France if you don't believe me.

The TGV ssystem in France has come at a huge cost to the rest of the network, which has been severely under invested in. The old network is creaking while the TGV gets all the investment from government.

£80B is an insane amount of money.

Offline Roady

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2013, 01:10:16 pm »
All very valid points which matter to a lot of people

yes they do but theres also the option of not getting caught in the rat race to earn mega bucks and enjoying time with your family.Yes some people need to work all throughout the country.They choose to do it.If they struggle with a work life balance thats their issue really.Id rather earn a hell of a lot less than trance my arse across the country every day and spend more time with my family (if i had kids).Ive seen so many people do this and complain about not getting time with their family etc...get a new job which allows you to do so then.I know its not quite that simple but its not really that hard.I know mates who bust a gut and leave for work at 6am and get home at 9pm etc,then complain that they dont get to see their kids etc...Erm well get a job that allows you to then and stop chasing cash left right and centre.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2013, 06:00:58 pm »
Is it fuck worth 80 billion though.

It's hardly the bullet train, it's shite. Typical rubbish transport decision by a British government.




100% right, it isn't worth £80bn, due to the fact it fucking isn't, die to the fact the report is complete and utter bollocks. Including Crossrail2 in it, which has fuck all to do with HS2 but they put that in there to make it sound worse.
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Offline francobones

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2013, 02:22:32 pm »
I would rather they spent £80bn on sorting out the bottlenecks in the road network such as the M6/M1/A14 Interchange which is a fucking nightmare on a Friday afternoon, the Interchange consisting of a slip road that goes down to one lane onto the A14, Its always the same fucking roads you hear on the Radio 2 traffic report, and the rest of the money spent on giving the rural areas of the UK access to decent broadband speeds, (taking the cable infrastructure away from virgin to a separate company dedicated to expansion rather than just serving the cities would be a start.) these 2 measures would benefit more people and businesses than knocking off 40 mins off commuting into London by train for the relatively few people it would benefit.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2013, 04:11:46 pm »
How many times do i need to repeat, they aren't spending 80 billion. Or do you believe the gutter press? Adding on money for seperate schemes like crossrail2 to the hs2 cost is a farce so stop falling for it
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2013, 06:10:08 pm »
How much are they going to spend?

80 billion mate, pay more attention

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2013, 10:29:39 pm »
How much are they going to spend?

A lot less than 80billion, take 20billion off for Crossrail2 for starters as that is fuck all to do with HS2, they have also in that report specified an amount for the extension of the metrolink to Manchester Airport which is already planned.

Basically the report is utter bollocks, and i'm being polite.
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Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2013, 10:30:13 pm »
80 billion mate, pay more attention

Oh. Mmm. Err.

Bollocks.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2013, 02:21:17 am »
Oh. Mmm. Err.

Bollocks.

Just a joke pal.

Either way it will be a massive amount of money spent and the Government is doing a terrible job in convincing people that it will be worth it.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2013, 07:58:33 am »
More I think about how it fucks those off in the shires the more i think good, the greater majority of the shires would not give a shit about anyone else and call it progress.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2013, 11:42:58 pm »
Err, i view Crossrail2 as being a continuation of Crossrail1, been talked about for far longer than HS2 and has absolutely nothing to do with HS2 apart from possibly linking with Euston/St Pancras as by sheer luck its due to go that way...
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2013, 06:43:45 pm »
Anyone catch the ITV news just then?  The STOP HS2 woman on it must have given the worst argument for stopping it going ahead, essentially along the lines of "...umm, it'll mean there's bridges and viaducts and things like that."
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Offline Roady

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2013, 09:09:03 am »
for the a mount of money it is costing and the amount of time it will save i think it is a complete waste of money. Be better off investing the cash in better infrastructure on our roads IMO
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2013, 09:05:13 pm »
Not exactly one of the alternatives I'd like to explored!  File under terrible idea.

care to tell me why? our roads are gridlocked every day? I can get to London in two hours by train as it is,half an hour wont make any difference to me and ive lost no productivity as I can work on a train. I cant in my car. Try using the M25 every day,or the M62 every morning,or any major road network for that matter.Its a pain in the arse.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #56 on: November 4, 2013, 09:21:03 am »
Cameron have told them to slash the price of HS2.

I guess that really means, make it sound like a bargain to get it pass public opinion.

And when it starts to get built it will be an open cheque book because it will be to late to stop then.   
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Offline Roady

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2017, 09:10:34 pm »
Estimates for this complete nonsense keep increasing. Thing that pisses me off more is that this money would be better spent on our road network or improving the current train system we have now. I do a bit of travelling with work. Not a great deal but I get the train to Crewe most days and drive to Cambridge from Liverpool once a week. To drive to Cambridge leaving at 5am doesnt by even get me to the office for 9! If I'm lucky I'll be in about half past nine. If I'm not so lucky it'll be after ten. I'm interested to know once this super duper (not so high speed rail) is up and running , just how many people will be able to afford the increased fairs that go along with it. It's a fucking ludicrous idea and will be outdated before it is completed . That money could be spent on far more important  things than saving a massive half an hour to get to London.its actually fucking insane when you think about it. Utterly ridiculous.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2017, 09:45:50 am »
Estimates for this complete nonsense keep increasing. Thing that pisses me off more is that this money would be better spent on our road network or improving the current train system we have now. I do a bit of travelling with work. Not a great deal but I get the train to Crewe most days and drive to Cambridge from Liverpool once a week. To drive to Cambridge leaving at 5am doesnt by even get me to the office for 9! If I'm lucky I'll be in about half past nine. If I'm not so lucky it'll be after ten. I'm interested to know once this super duper (not so high speed rail) is up and running , just how many people will be able to afford the increased fairs that go along with it. It's a fucking ludicrous idea and will be outdated before it is completed . That money could be spent on far more important  things than saving a massive half an hour to get to London.its actually fucking insane when you think about it. Utterly ridiculous.

It's about more than just cutting the journey time though isn't it? Won't it triple capacity as well?

I like trains
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2017, 09:50:48 am »
It's about more than just cutting the journey time though isn't it? Won't it triple capacity as well?

I like trains

The whole project is a crock of shit, it's going to decimate so much ancient woodland and associated species.

It doesn't need to happen.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2017, 09:51:22 am »
It's about more than just cutting the journey time though isn't it? Won't it triple capacity as well?

I like trains

It's also much more environmentally friendly than encouraging more cars on the road.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2017, 09:59:42 am »
The whole project is a crock of shit, it's going to decimate so much ancient woodland and associated species.

It doesn't need to happen.

What's the alternative though? Road expansion? Road congestion leading to pollution etc?
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2017, 10:15:14 am »
Wont H2S just suck even more £ into London, by making even further our places sort-of-commutable?

I like that Northern powerhouse east-west transport links etc. idea. Even though im a london c*nt.  Because in the long run, better to have northern-mega-city-2 as an urban ally than have to build a wall round the M25 to keep maurading orcs out.





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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2017, 05:22:24 pm »
We can increase capacity of trains with our current network for far far less ridiculous money. as for being more environmentally friendly than cars whilst that may be true large swathes of countryside will be torn up for it in the first place. Then you get the whole argument that by the time it is finished cars will be far more environmentally friendly that currently. The whole thing is completely barmy. It's an insane amount of money for little reward.
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Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2017, 05:28:06 pm »
How many years has this taken, and we are still haven't got anywhere yet?

Same with the Heathrow expansion.

Incidentally how much time is saved by going from Birmingham to London via this new route? Secondly, why is it not going all the way north to Scotland or Newcastle?

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2017, 08:12:31 pm »
How many years has this taken, and we are still haven't got anywhere yet?

Same with the Heathrow expansion.

Incidentally how much time is saved by going from Birmingham to London via this new route? Secondly, why is it not going all the way north to Scotland or Newcastle



It's a fucking joke.a ridiculously expensive project that, by the time it is built will be outdated and slow. Christ it's still slow in comparison to trains operating now in other countries. We need to focus on the current infrastructure to be improved. With the kind of money being thrown about for hs2 we could have seats for every passenger and more reliable and faster trains on our current network with better stations and more comfortable journeys. It's a complete waste of money. 45 minutes you'd save from London to Edinburgh .
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2017, 09:28:55 pm »
Wont H2S just suck even more £ into London, by making even further our places sort-of-commutable?

I like that Northern powerhouse east-west transport links etc. idea. Even though im a london c*nt.  Because in the long run, better to have northern-mega-city-2 as an urban ally than have to build a wall round the M25 to keep maurading orcs out.

Money would also go out of London if that was the case.  If you could commute from Manchester, then you'll be spending money earned in London on housing, food, etc, in Manchester. 
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2017, 10:17:51 pm »
We could easily increase capacity by upgrading the existing trains and railways.

Large parts of the network are still not electrified. Apart from slowing down journeys, this is also plays a part in why the UK is constantly over the air pollution limits..

I spend a lot of time on trains for work, and the amount of ancient trains is incredible. It's perfectly normal to have a two-carriage pacer 'train' (by design a bus) run on a commuter line with 300 people per train.



Our 'new' electrified trains are refurbished 1980's trains. They now have four carriages, with seats only suitable when you're under 5 ft.



These are trains that run on routes with up to two hour journey times, but they look like trams.


Upgrading the existing railways and trains would do so much more for transport around the country than building one high-speed link that is likely too far away for most people to affect their daily life. And that's not even mentioning the costs.
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Offline whiteboots

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2017, 08:12:32 am »
After HS1, this is the first major new line to be built in a century. That is hardly overdoing investing in the railways.

Our rail network is antiquated, and frequently at capacity, with a combination of inadequate track, signalling, bridging, tunnelling and platform space all playing their part.

The cost of upgrading and modernising the existing infrastructure to a similar standard  is greater than new build, the disruption and inconvenience to existing travel costly and unacceptable. We have had a hundred years of tinkering and make do and mend.

Post the Chunnel, we have stopped making major public infrastructure commitments. It shows. London to Birmingham is not enough. The spurs to Manchester and Leeds are better, a continuation to Scotland the logical conclusion.

Some question the technology. The technology improves as you do things. We need to move from a mentality of “what can go wrong?” to “what can we achieve?”

Hefty contingency provision has been made. But with any new project costs can be uncertain, what is likely is that the costs of the spurs, if built, will be significantly lower as lessons are learned. Yet there is also a cost in not doing anything. Our new main stand cost more than the entire Millenium stadium.

A new railway line will not tear up rural England. It may herald the dawn of a much needed improvement in rail travel.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2017, 08:51:33 am »
After HS1, this is the first major new line to be built in a century. That is hardly overdoing investing in the railways.

Our rail network is antiquated, and frequently at capacity, with a combination of inadequate track, signalling, bridging, tunnelling and platform space all playing their part.

The cost of upgrading and modernising the existing infrastructure to a similar standard  is greater than new build, the disruption and inconvenience to existing travel costly and unacceptable. We have had a hundred years of tinkering and make do and mend.

Post the Chunnel, we have stopped making major public infrastructure commitments. It shows. London to Birmingham is not enough. The spurs to Manchester and Leeds are better, a continuation to Scotland the logical conclusion.

Some question the technology. The technology improves as you do things. We need to move from a mentality of “what can go wrong?” to “what can we achieve?”

Hefty contingency provision has been made. But with any new project costs can be uncertain, what is likely is that the costs of the spurs, if built, will be significantly lower as lessons are learned. Yet there is also a cost in not doing anything. Our new main stand cost more than the entire Millenium stadium.

A new railway line will not tear up rural England. It may herald the dawn of a much needed improvement in rail travel.

Absolute f*cking bollocks, especially the bolded part.

However, as with all developments, there are opportunities to mitigate the negative impacts and create / restore areas of wildlife habitat along the route, for the benefit of the local people and wildlife.


'Bechstein’s bats, one of Britain’s rarest mammals, are living in ancient woodlands either side of the proposed HS2 (high speed rail) route in north Buckinghamshire. As a European Protected Species and UK Biodiversity Action Plan species, they have the highest possible level of statutory wildlife protection in the UK. Thus, the population of Bechstein’s bats in the Bernwood Forest area is highly significant and could be more important than many existing designated sites.

Researchers from the University of Leeds were asked by the Berks, Bucks & Oxon Wildlife Trust (BBOWT) to review the approach taken by HS2 Ltd, and investigate the impacts of mitigation proposals on colonies of the Bechstein’s bat in Bernwood Forest. They concluded that, without significant changes, the proposals would put the bats at risk of local extinction instead of protecting them. They were particularly critical of ‘mitigation measures’ outlined in HS2 Ltd’s Environmental Statement, which included short bridges and underpasses, and an 800m long barrier to prevent bats colliding with trains.'

Small Blue Butterfly

Sadly, the last known site in Northamptonshire for the rare small blue butterfly - the UK’s smallest butterfly - will be completely destroyed by the new HS2 rail line. The Helmdon site, (a site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI)) is one of only few remaining protected wildlife hotspots where this species survives.
http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/node/88252

Barn owl

The HS2 route goes through several barn owl 'hot spots'. The barn owl is covered by the Staffordshire Biodiversity Action Plan species, while the Barn Owl Action Group has been very active in boosting barn owl numbers over the last few years. Not only would habitat be lost and severed, but high speed trains would pose a further threat to low-flying hunting owls.

Mammal Migration

A number of mammal species present in the Midlands have landscape-scale population dynamics requiring movement and habitat patches that HS2 may present a major barrier against. These species are likely to include roe deer, fox, fallow, otter, brown long eared bat, badger, brown hare, polecat, rabbit, weasel, stoat, harvest mouse, common mole, water shrew and lesser horseshoe bat.

http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/node/88252


The Government's proposed High Speed 2 route from London to Manchester and Leeds will have a significant impact on trees and ancient woodland.

London to Birmingham (Phase one)

The confirmed route from London to Birmingham will cause:

    Direct loss to 36 ancient woods
    Damage to 27 ancient woods (due to noise, vibration, changes to lighting and dust)
    At least 8 ancient trees are threatened by Phase 1 of HS2


These are the figures we submitted as part of our consultation response to the Phase 1 Environmental Statement. They are a starting point and are likely to change as we work through the proposal in more detail as part of the petitioning process and (hopefully) win more protection.



Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds (Phase two)

The current proposed route from Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds will cause:

    Direct loss to 14 ancient woods
    Damage to 21 ancient woods (due to noise, vibration, changes to lighting and dust)
    At least 5 ancient trees are threatened by Phase 2 of HS2

Route alterations, the width of the track cutting (which will vary), road building to allow vehicle access, or noise and disturbance – first from construction and later the high speed trains that will pass at speeds of up to 250mph several times a day – could all impact on these woods and more.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/our-campaigns/hs2-rail-link/proposed-route/


Ancient woodland is our most diverse terrestrial habitat, as the name 'ancient' suggests, it cannot be recreated by just planting a few trees in a place nearby.


A Greener Vision for HS2:

http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/sites/default/files/files/TWT%20HS2%20Greener%20Vision%20Spreads.pdf
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 09:23:08 am by Red-Soldier »

Offline Peabee

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2017, 08:59:51 am »
We could easily increase capacity by upgrading the existing trains and railways.

Large parts of the network are still not electrified. Apart from slowing down journeys, this is also plays a part in why the UK is constantly over the air pollution limits..

I spend a lot of time on trains for work, and the amount of ancient trains is incredible. It's perfectly normal to have a two-carriage pacer 'train' (by design a bus) run on a commuter line with 300 people per train.



Our 'new' electrified trains are refurbished 1980's trains. They now have four carriages, with seats only suitable when you're under 5 ft.



These are trains that run on routes with up to two hour journey times, but they look like trams.


Upgrading the existing railways and trains would do so much more for transport around the country than building one high-speed link that is likely too far away for most people to affect their daily life. And that's not even mentioning the costs.

If that's how busy the trains get, no wonder there's little investment on those lines...  ;-)

Infrastructure investment is notoriously "laggy".  Even down south, when I was living down here in 2003, Southern were still using carriages with wooden doors that opened out from each compartment to the platform.   Public transport use in London is massive, but the investment is still lagging far behind demand.  Sure, they've invested in nice new stations and tube trains in the tourist areas, but the Northern Line (one of the busiest used by londonders and commuters) is still using tiny, ancient carriages and narrow, overcrowded 19th century platforms.  It's horrible.

The post above makes good points about upgrading versus new build. 

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Offline whiteboots

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2017, 09:28:28 am »
Absolute f*cking bollocks, especially the bolded part.
It is a shame that your argument is not a match for your vitriol.

Yes, there will be some loss of woodland and animal habitat, in turn it will create new woodland and animal habitat.

Of course there will be some damage, but in the grand scheme of things it is slight. Tear up? Hardly.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2017, 09:42:12 am »
It is a shame that your argument is not a match for your vitriol.

Yes, there will be some loss of woodland and animal habitat, in turn it will create new woodland and animal habitat.

Of course there will be some damage, but in the grand scheme of things it is slight. Tear up? Hardly.

I've backed up all my statements with evidence / references, have you????

I just pointed out a few of the things that will be lost.  Have you got any numbers / facts to point out that in the grand scheme of things it will be slight?

Can you reference the points you are making, otherwise it's just personal conjecture, which doesn't carry much weight.

You must have missed the bit about ANCIENT woodland in my last post.  The clue is in the name 'Ancient.'  A woodland is classed as 'ancient' if there has been continuous tree cover for at least 400 years!  So that's at least 400 years of the whole ecosystem developing together; ground layer, herb layer, shrub layer, canopy etc....

Please can you tell me how we create new ancient woodland????

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 09:46:25 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2017, 09:47:30 am »
Yes, I just pointed out a few of the things that will be lost.  Have you got any numbers / facts to point out that in the grand scheme of things it will be slight?

Can you reference the points you are making, otherwise it's just personal conjecture, which doesn't carry much weight.

You must have missed the bit about ANCIENT woodland in my last post.  The clue is in the name 'Ancient.'  A woodland is classed as 'ancient' is there has been continuous tree cover for at least 400 years!  So that's at least 400 years of the whole ecosystem developing together; ground layer, herb layer, shrub layer, canopy etc....

Please can you tell me how we create new ancient woodland????

You have quoted a report speculating on what habitat may be lost- it does not refer to what may be gained. You do an excellent job in describing the potential adverse impact, which is slight.

Forests are dynamic things, they come, they go. A new tree planted now becomes ancient in 400 years. The question is does the line result in significant loss of ancient woodland? The answer is no.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2017, 10:04:32 am »
You have quoted a report speculating on what habitat may be lost- it does not refer to what may be gained. You do an excellent job in describing the potential adverse impact, which is slight.

Forests are dynamic things, they come, they go. A new tree planted now becomes ancient in 400 years. The question is does the line result in significant loss of ancient woodland? The answer is no.

Again, lots of personal conjecture, not much fact.

You come across as someone who doesn't care, and / or understand a great deal about wildlife and the natural world.

Yep, forests do tend to go when you cut them down.

If you are interested, I suggest you read some of the things I've posted and do a bit more research on the topic.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 10:07:12 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2017, 10:20:53 am »
Again, lots of personal conjecture, not much fact. You come across as someone who doesn't care, and / or understand a great deal about wildlife and the natural world.Yep, forests do tend to go when you cut them down. If you are interested, I suggest you read some of the things I've posted and do a bit more research on the topic.

The report you quote is scientifically accurate in substance, but all conjecture on impact.

I care very much for wildlife and the natural world within the context of a broad society. There has to be balance.

I am well briefed on the subject as a close family member is an independent advisor to HS2, good and bad.

Obviously this is a judgement call. But I fail to see how the marginal losses the line may create are not offset by the public infrastructure benefits. Some trees go. Less than .1 of 1% of all ancient woodland, and a tree building and conservation scheme comes with it. The net benefits to nature are greater.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2017, 10:35:25 am »
The report you quote is scientifically accurate in substance, but all conjecture on impact.

I care very much for wildlife and the natural world within the context of a broad society. There has to be balance.

I am well briefed on the subject as a close family member is an independent advisor to HS2, good and bad.

Obviously this is a judgement call. But I fail to see how the marginal losses the line may create are not offset by the public infrastructure benefits. Some trees go. Less than .1 of 1% of all ancient woodland, and a tree building and conservation scheme comes with it. The net benefits to nature are greater.

It doesn't seem that you do care looking at your posts.

Can you point me to the benefits and losses of the proposed scheme???  Reports, numbers, facts, evidence????

I disagree that the net benefits to nature are greater.  Repeating myself again, but, planting new trees isn't a substitute for chopping down ancient woods.

I'm really interested to see the evidence that you are basing your personal oppinion on.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2017, 11:10:07 am »
It doesn't seem that you do care looking at your posts.

Can you point me to the benefits and losses of the proposed scheme???  Reports, numbers, facts, evidence????

I disagree that the net benefits to nature are greater.  Repeating myself again, but, planting new trees isn't a substitute for chopping down ancient woods.

I'm really interested to see the evidence that you are basing your personal oppinion on.
It is perfectly possible to care about nature, and support the second new major rail line in a hundred years.

The environmental schemes associated with HS2 are a matter of record – no doubt you will have consulted them in drawing your opinion.

Some ancient trees will go. Some new ones will be planted. It is amazing how quickly ground , trees and vegetation recover and develop. I did some work at Pooley Country Park in Staffs where there was coal mining and was astonished. Ironically silver birches, which some regard as amongst the oldest of our trees, flourished the quickest.  Google it if you wish. If you are in the “not a single tree to go” camp, that is fine, but let us not pretend that HS2 represents mass deforestation.

Nature is far more resilient than you may imagine. Train lines can create artificial borders which damage some habitats, but protect others. The banks and associated vegetation become rich in flora and wildlife.

Conservation of our natural heritage is important, but the HS2 line is not one of the great battles to fight. I hope  you find the HS2/Pooley stuff interesting. It won't change your mind I suspect, but it will offer some balance.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2017, 11:16:05 am »
After HS1, this is the first major new line to be built in a century. That is hardly overdoing investing in the railways.

Our rail network is antiquated, and frequently at capacity, with a combination of inadequate track, signalling, bridging, tunnelling and platform space all playing their part.

The cost of upgrading and modernising the existing infrastructure to a similar standard  is greater than new build, the disruption and inconvenience to existing travel costly and unacceptable. We have had a hundred years of tinkering and make do and mend.

Post the Chunnel, we have stopped making major public infrastructure commitments. It shows. London to Birmingham is not enough. The spurs to Manchester and Leeds are better, a continuation to Scotland the logical conclusion.

Some question the technology. The technology improves as you do things. We need to move from a mentality of “what can go wrong?” to “what can we achieve?”

Hefty contingency provision has been made. But with any new project costs can be uncertain, what is likely is that the costs of the spurs, if built, will be significantly lower as lessons are learned. Yet there is also a cost in not doing anything. Our new main stand cost more than the entire Millenium stadium.

A new railway line will not tear up rural England. It may herald the dawn of a much needed improvement in rail travel.


HS2 isn't investment into the railways, it's a showpiece line with little significance for the rest of the network.

HS2 won't make it quicker for me to get to work, or healthier, and it won't even affect my traveltime to London. In fact, it might make it slower, considering that it takes 45 minutes to Manchester and only 2 hours 10 to London on the existing line. Going to London (and Birmingham, before that comes up) is already very fast.

What takes long is linking all the smaller cities together, and this is where most people travel - this is where investment needs to go.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2017, 11:20:31 am »
HS2 isn't investment into the railways, it's a showpiece line with little significance for the rest of the network.

HS2 won't make it quicker for me to get to work, or healthier, and it won't even affect my traveltime to London. In fact, it might make it slower, considering that it takes 45 minutes to Manchester and only 2 hours 10 to London on the existing line. Going to London (and Birmingham, before that comes up) is already very fast.

What takes long is linking all the smaller cities together, and this is where most people travel - this is where investment needs to go.

Self-evidently a new major railway line is an investment in the railways. You are wrong.

You are right that in itself, it does not transform the network. It might however act as a catalyst for transformation as technology and construction lessons are learned. A London to Birmingham only project wil have failed. But you have to start somewhere.