Author Topic: Education Secretary Wants A Slap  (Read 28229 times)

Offline SP

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #160 on: January 4, 2016, 08:53:36 pm »
I really don't get that. What's so bad about working your times out when you need them? Why do you have to memorise the sums? To me only a lack of understanding of mathematical principles makes memorisation necessary.

Mental arithmetic becomes much harder if you need to calculate from first principles. Arithmetic is particularly important when using computers and calculators to sanity check outputs.


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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #161 on: January 4, 2016, 09:01:17 pm »
Mental arithmetic becomes much harder if you need to calculate from first principles. Arithmetic is particularly important when using computers and calculators to sanity check outputs.


Whether its harder is subjective. The point is, it's not wrong to work from first principles. However, computerised, time-limited tests make it seem wrong, because it's a fraction slower - irrelevant in real life, but will fail you the computer test. Thus failing exactly those kids that might actually be pretty good at maths.


Sanity checking outputs can be done with fuzzy knowledge... and also recognising a correct sum and recalling it from memory are two different things - but that takes the thread a bit to far off topic.
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Offline SP

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #162 on: January 4, 2016, 09:29:34 pm »
Whether its harder is subjective. The point is, it's not wrong to work from first principles. However, computerised, time-limited tests make it seem wrong, because it's a fraction slower - irrelevant in real life, but will fail you the computer test. Thus failing exactly those kids that might actually be pretty good at maths.


Sanity checking outputs can be done with fuzzy knowledge... and also recognising a correct sum and recalling it from memory are two different things - but that takes the thread a bit to far off topic.

To be fair, if you calculate them competently, you should be fine in a test. The time limit is likely to be generous enough to reduce the burden of special cases pleading. The interest is in getting them right, rather than getting them right instantly.

My kids school currently use speed tables - paper based tests - 3 minutes, 30 question tests. They have to get them all right 3 times before going up a level. 5 minutes a couple of times a week. And if they don't move it could be an issue that requires further support. In practice the test is unlikely to have any impact on their routine.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #163 on: January 4, 2016, 09:38:32 pm »
Turbo tables?

My son loves them.  He bounced into school on a Friday when they do them.

I worry for him ;D
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #164 on: January 5, 2016, 01:16:57 am »
The testing does not make the kids better in itself. The testing is designed to identify kids that have been failed by the system. The in-house continual assessment clearly does not work perfectly as kids are falling through the system. In principle, another safety net to catch people falling through the system can be justified. I would be delighted if the system failed to identify any pupils that had not already been identified - but you know that won't be the case.


No, testing has nothing to do with the kids, it's to provide a yardstick for judging teachers and schools. Every new test introduced since the 70s has basically been put in place to show up teachers rather than to improve education for children. The rest of the world, countries with far better academic success than we have, they don't do all that much testing.

If you want to know if a kid can do his times tables, that will be clear from how he gets on with doing his times tables as a natural part of his school routine. And if teachers were trusted to get on with the job, they would have the time to know that sort of thing about every kid they teach. Instead of which they are under constant pressure to get the kids through endless exams which will have no bearing on their lives and little on their future academic career.

Adding "just one more test" is really the last thing they need. It has no benefit to the kids. It's all that ministers seem to think of, and it is ruining our school system.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2016, 01:39:09 am »
i know it was the late fifties but we learnt our tables by rote every day long before what they now call year 6,

on another point i would ban calculators from Primary Schools the level of mental arithmetic skills nowadays is abysmal , the calculator could tell some of them 10 + 10 = 100 and they would believe it.

Far too much reliance on Calculators and Computers at too early an age in my opinion.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2016, 11:59:26 am »
On another point i would ban calculators from Primary Schools the level of mental arithmetic skills nowadays is abysmal , the calculator could tell some of them 10 + 10 = 100 and they would believe it.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2016, 12:15:20 pm »
i know it was the late fifties but we learnt our tables by rote every day long before what they now call year 6,

on another point i would ban calculators from Primary Schools the level of mental arithmetic skills nowadays is abysmal , the calculator could tell some of them 10 + 10 = 100 and they would believe it.

Far too much reliance on Calculators and Computers at too early an age in my opinion.

What does learning your times table actually do?

I've been in IT for over 30 years and been coding since I was 7 and not knowing them (or being arsed) hasn't affected me in the slightest.

I can't see any role that requires it in todays world.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2016, 01:00:59 pm »
of course knowing your times tables is useful (if you dont have a calculator to hand) - I use them a lot and I am just a boring housewife.  Same with mental arithmetic  - I agree with Geoff - ban calculators until secondary school - get kids learning the basics
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Offline SP

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2016, 01:26:03 pm »
of course knowing your times tables is useful (if you dont have a calculator to hand) - I use them a lot and I am just a boring housewife.  Same with mental arithmetic  - I agree with Geoff - ban calculators until secondary school - get kids learning the basics

Banning calculators is gesture politics. They already do plenty of arithmetic where they are not allowed to use calculators.

Calculators are exciting at that age. Teachers should be able to kids to do sums then check the results with calculators for instance...

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2016, 01:29:13 pm »
Banning calculators is gesture politics. They already do plenty of arithmetic where they are not allowed to use calculators.

Calculators are exciting at that age. Teachers should be able to kids to do sums then check the results with calculators for instance...

Sorry not really that up to date with the policy on calculators - we were still using slide rules and log tables back in my day  :P
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2016, 01:32:02 pm »
Mental arithmetic becomes much harder if you need to calculate from first principles. Arithmetic is particularly important when using computers and calculators to sanity check outputs.



Really? Doesn't seem to have held me up any and I've written literally hundreds of programs that perform complicated calculations and use algorithms I've written from scratch based on whatever it is I'm reading/playing with at the time.

Logic, the ability to visualise an aim and the knowledge of how you can build towards attaining that aim are far more important than being able to do sums in your head. I own several calculators - if I need to 'do maths' then they do it for me.

The calculation isn't the important thing, it's knowing how to arrive at the answer you're aiming for that is important.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2016, 02:10:39 pm »
Really? Doesn't seem to have held me up any and I've written literally hundreds of programs that perform complicated calculations and use algorithms I've written from scratch based on whatever it is I'm reading/playing with at the time.

Logic, the ability to visualise an aim and the knowledge of how you can build towards attaining that aim are far more important than being able to do sums in your head. I own several calculators - if I need to 'do maths' then they do it for me.

The calculation isn't the important thing, it's knowing how to arrive at the answer you're aiming for that is important.

My son in law is in the same game as you and writes programmes for major companies here and in the U.S. however when he first wanted to get into this profession he was told he needed a Degree in Maths and got one, so i agree one fit does not suit all but surely you would agree most students need at least the basic foundations of maths which the tables clearly are one foundation.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2016, 02:42:53 pm »
My son in law is in the same game as you and writes programmes for major companies here and in the U.S. however when he first wanted to get into this profession he was told he needed a Degree in Maths and got one, so i agree one fit does not suit all but surely you would agree most students need at least the basic foundations of maths which the tables clearly are one foundation.

I've known hundreds of excellent programmers over the years and of those, I know three that have maths degrees. I'd say your son was being told porkies.

:)
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2016, 02:47:06 pm »
I've known hundreds of excellent programmers over the years and of those, I know three that have maths degrees. I'd say your son was being told porkies.

:)

not in the era he started, i wish i earned his money as well but that's another matter.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2016, 03:12:24 pm »
not in the era he started, i wish i earned his money as well but that's another matter.

What era was that? I started in 1985. It might have been different in the 70s I guess when Computers were more seen as scientific devices used by boffins :)

I'd say that language skills are more important than maths skills to be honest. If you can use language well then you're coding stuff using languages and constructs of logic and prose. Maths doesn't often come into it (Except when I'm writing games or simulations or stuff that's specifically Physics or Maths based)
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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2016, 03:13:18 pm »
I think we may be getting crossed wires about coding vs computer science...
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2016, 03:18:33 pm »
The importance or otherwise of times tables isn't even the issue. There is no evidence at all that testing would improve kids ability to do times tables so it's a moot point.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2016, 04:56:00 pm »
And meanwhile the UK plummets through the OECD rankings...

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2016, 05:49:31 pm »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2016, 05:51:36 pm »
The importance or otherwise of times tables isn't even the issue. There is no evidence at all that testing would improve kids ability to do times tables so it's a moot point.
testing certainly does improve performance....

But only if you make the effort to use it diagnostically to inform future learning methodology....l

If secondary schools do you that, it will stop the tests just being used as a way of measuring schools...
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #181 on: January 10, 2016, 05:54:40 pm »
testing certainly does improve performance....

But only if you make the effort to use it diagnostically to inform future learning methodology....l

If secondary schools do you that, it will stop the tests just being used as a way of measuring schools...



Wise words
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #182 on: January 10, 2016, 05:55:28 pm »
Oops!

#accidentalyoda
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #183 on: January 10, 2016, 05:56:58 pm »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2016, 06:37:09 pm »
testing certainly does improve performance....

But only if you make the effort to use it diagnostically to inform future learning methodology....l

And there's zero evidence of that going on with existing tests.

Quote
If secondary schools do you that, it will stop the tests just being used as a way of measuring schools...

They don't have time to do any of that, too many tests to prepare for. It's an obsession and it's futile. Tests for tests sake. Tests for league tables. And cliché though it is, nobody is thinking of the children.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2016, 07:36:57 pm »
And there's zero evidence of that going on with existing tests.

They don't have time to do any of that, too many tests to prepare for. It's an obsession and it's futile. Tests for tests sake. Tests for league tables. And cliché though it is, nobody is thinking of the children.
The current tests are to some extent used to inform targeted intervention, so that's clearly incorrect.
The current tests are rather difficult to 'deep dive' (particularly in maths) to determine what skills are/ are not well developed.  A tables test will give schools a  very clear area for development.

Secondary schools absolutely do have time to intervene with kids who have underachieved. Why wouldn't you?  All the evidence is that they will be the kids to continue underachieving, you would absolutely target them. That's a huge part of modern education.

Now, you are probably correct that this is more to do with measuring schools, but that doesn't mean that it can't be an extremely useful piece of information for secondary schools.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2016, 10:48:41 pm »
What era was that? I started in 1985. It might have been different in the 70s I guess when Computers were more seen as scientific devices used by boffins :)

I'd say that language skills are more important than maths skills to be honest. If you can use language well then you're coding stuff using languages and constructs of logic and prose. Maths doesn't often come into it (Except when I'm writing games or simulations or stuff that's specifically Physics or Maths based)

well he is 42 today do the maths ?   :D

he doesn't write games although he can for fun,  and creates Aps for fun as well,  he creates major programmes in industry, not a bad life i reckon
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #187 on: January 11, 2016, 12:16:57 am »
The current tests are to some extent used to inform targeted intervention, so that's clearly incorrect.
The current tests are rather difficult to 'deep dive' (particularly in maths) to determine what skills are/ are not well developed.  A tables test will give schools a  very clear area for development.

Secondary schools absolutely do have time to intervene with kids who have underachieved. Why wouldn't you?  All the evidence is that they will be the kids to continue underachieving, you would absolutely target them. That's a huge part of modern education.

Now, you are probably correct that this is more to do with measuring schools, but that doesn't mean that it can't be an extremely useful piece of information for secondary schools.

Why is it more useful than continuous assessment which will provide a far more accurate indication of ability?
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #188 on: January 11, 2016, 07:52:14 am »
Why is it more useful than continuous assessment which will provide a far more accurate indication of ability?
Both are useful.

But continuous assessment is somewhat open to variation from school to school, and is very seldom passed on to secondary schools.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #189 on: January 11, 2016, 11:19:30 am »
Both are useful.

But continuous assessment is somewhat open to variation from school to school, and is very seldom passed on to secondary schools.

If you work in education and you honestly think that more testing is a good idea, you must at least realise that you are in a tiny, tiny minority.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #190 on: January 11, 2016, 11:54:00 am »
If you work in education and you honestly think that more testing is a good idea, you must at least realise that you are in a tiny, tiny minority.
I think useful testing is a good idea.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #191 on: January 11, 2016, 12:35:42 pm »
I think useful testing is a good idea.

But our children are the most tested in Europe. They are far from the best performing, so something is fundamentally wrong with the notion that more tests make for a better education experience. Nobody is saying there should be no tests at all, but at the moment it is more of a hindrance than a help.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #192 on: January 11, 2016, 12:47:18 pm »
But our children are the most tested in Europe. They are far from the best performing, so something is fundamentally wrong with the notion that more tests make for a better education experience. Nobody is saying there should be no tests at all, but at the moment it is more of a hindrance than a help.

That argument is an argument for the abolition of SATs and similar, not for the abolition of a tightly targeted test which should trigger targeted interventions.  If continual assessment is the answer, why are some children still being missed? Continual assessment with best practice works, but not every school, and not every teacher is as competent as we would like. Given the ramping pressure caused by league tables, purely internal assessment is vulnerable to corruption.

Generally the tests are not the issue. Incentivising the teaching staff to focus on the tests and not educating the children is the real problem with the tests.

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #193 on: January 11, 2016, 12:58:31 pm »
That argument is an argument for the abolition of SATs and similar, not for the abolition of a tightly targeted test which should trigger targeted interventions.  If continual assessment is the answer, why are some children still being missed? Continual assessment with best practice works, but not every school, and not every teacher is as competent as we would like. Given the ramping pressure caused by league tables, purely internal assessment is vulnerable to corruption.

Generally the tests are not the issue. Incentivising the teaching staff to focus on the tests and not educating the children is the real problem with the tests.

We aren't talking about abolishing a test, we're talking about adding another, to the most tested kids in Europe.

I realise it's a sacred cow to education ministers, but there is no evidence at all that more tests is good practice or improves standards. We're going in circles here, so please provide the evidence for the benefit of so many tests, because it clearly does not exist.

You could make the case for an isolated test if it was a one-off, but it isn't, far from it. And there has to be a point where we say this testing is not actually good for the education of our children, and we need to take a step back and let teachers do their jobs rather than giving them more hurdles to clear, which is all any of these tests really do.

Where do you draw the line? And why was that not quite a long time ago?
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #194 on: January 11, 2016, 01:10:22 pm »
We aren't talking about abolishing a test, we're talking about adding another, to the most tested kids in Europe.

I realise it's a sacred cow to education ministers, but there is no evidence at all that more tests is good practice or improves standards. We're going in circles here, so please provide the evidence for the benefit of so many tests, because it clearly does not exist.

You could make the case for an isolated test if it was a one-off, but it isn't, far from it. And there has to be a point where we say this testing is not actually good for the education of our children, and we need to take a step back and let teachers do their jobs rather than giving them more hurdles to clear, which is all any of these tests really do.

Where do you draw the line? And why was that not quite a long time ago?

The question is whether this test is a good idea. It is targeted and implemented correctly it could add an important safety net for the benefit of the children.

SATs is completely separate, and the results by and large are used to judge the school and not the children. They do not provide feedback to aid the children, and it does not really highlight any failing that should not apparent from other results.

That the government has implemented some bloody useless tests that distort the school year should not impede the addition of sensible tests that benefit the pupil. You are arguing against SATs and extending it to all tests.

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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #195 on: January 11, 2016, 01:15:56 pm »
The question is whether this test is a good idea. It is targeted and implemented correctly it could add an important safety net for the benefit of the children.

SATs is completely separate, and the results by and large are used to judge the school and not the children. They do not provide feedback to aid the children, and it does not really highlight any failing that should not apparent from other results.

That the government has implemented some bloody useless tests that distort the school year should not impede the addition of sensible tests that benefit the pupil. You are arguing against SATs and extending it to all tests.

I am saying there are too many tests. Adding more tests is not a solution to that problem. However useful a test might be in isolation that is not how it exists in reality. It is one more on top, not an alternative.

The reason we have so many tests is that it is all education ministers can think of. If one comes along that happens to be useful (and I'm still not clear why this would be better than the continuous assessment which already exists) then it's a case of the stopped clock being right twice a day rather than any brilliance of forethought. Can you guarantee that this test is not going to be stressful? Can you guarantee that it won't be used as yet another whipping post for teachers?

It's all very naive.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2016, 03:37:39 pm »
There are no SATS after this year.

There will be a completely different style of exam (which we hope should give more useful information).
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #197 on: January 20, 2016, 05:48:45 am »
I guess its because teachers how have to report things like this.

But really.

A 10-year-old Muslim boy who mistakenly wrote that he lived in a "terrorist house" during an English lesson at school has been investigated by police.

The pupil, who attends a primary school in Lancashire, meant to say he lived in a "terraced house".

The boy was interviewed by police at his home the next day and the family laptop was examined.

Teachers have been legally obliged to report any suspected extremist behaviour to police since July.

The boy's family said they were left shocked by the 7 December incident and want both the school and police to apologise.

In order to protect the boy's identity, the BBC is not naming his cousin, who said she initially thought it was all a "joke".

"You can imagine it happening to a 30-year-old man, but not to a young child," she said. "If the teacher had any concerns it should have been about his spelling.

"They shouldn't be putting a child through this.

"He's now scared of writing, using his imagination."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-35354061
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2016, 06:46:21 am »
A tiny modicum of effort by the school could have stopped this happening.... A short conversation with the kid would have solved it.
This is a ridiculous failure by the school.

That being said, it is utterly right that a school with genuine concerns over a kid bang radicalized should report it to the appropriate authorities.
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Re: Education Secretary Wants A Slap
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2016, 10:56:52 am »
I don't really see a problem with that, obviously an unfortunate misunderstanding, but kids often pick up on little words and comments they shouldn't and repeat them. If being a bit overcautious saves a dozen lives then so be it
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