Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)

[CraigDS]

FSG have made a lot of money at Anfield

No they haven't. They've made a grand total of £0.

[Nessy76]

No they haven't. They've made a grand total of £0.

At a cost to them of £500m+.

[Anfield89]

Sadly, you are right.

The fan case for safe standing is overwhelming, the owner case is the reverse.

FSG have made a lot of money at Anfield by ensuring an undersupply of capacity, creating seats that always attract a premium. Safe standing has no benefit to owners in a stadium which is normally sold out.

They are entitled to make money if they wish what would be the point in doing it for free or at a cost to yourself. As long as its done properly and isn't harming the club.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

The thing with safety is, you really want to know before things go wrong. Just filling up sections until there's a problem isn't ethical.
Not entirely sure that's what you were getting at, though?

Sorry about the late reply. I forgot that I had a question posed here.

In my experience, there are three phases to consider while talking about safe standing.

1. Ticketing - The number of tickets to be issued considering how many people could be safely accommodated etc.
2. Maintenance - There is a certain amount of work to be done in terms of constructing folding seats and erecting barriers. Not with just the construction part, but the maintenance part.
3. Safety - What to do when things look like they are about to go wrong?

I will try and explain them in a more elaborate manner. I was constructing and simulating a small stand. Closest I was able to find was this.


We were told to design the stand in such a way, that it can seat about 48 people. And if the seats were removed, about 56 people standing. I delivered the stand and it got me thinking about the ticketing side of safe standing. Say, we have a stand that can seat 10000. We split them into 10 sections equally. So it has 1000 seats in each section.

We do testing to find out how many people can "safely" stand in the same area as 1000 people who are seated. During testing in a controlled environment, we first send in 1000 people. And then another 25. Another 25. And at each stage, we find out what the comfort level of people inside is. And then we stop at, say, 1250. We do this in every section. An increase of 250 people per section. This means that, as far as construction is concerned, we have the place for 1250 people to stand, per section, which, otherwise, would seat 1000. Here, I am only talking about the construction/design stage and how many tickets should be allocated in each section. Get it? A person's ticket would only read, standing zone 4, lower tier. So, we only sell 1250 tickets for standing, per section.

Now comes the safety side. I have visited Hannover stadium and the Mainz stadium in the Bundesliga. Both to watch games and also for job-related surveys. And I that is where it occurred to me about the question regarding safe standing. Take a look at the photos below.

1. Hannover safe standing
http://fiftyfive.one/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Cropped_Hannover_DoubleRiser_JDarch.jpg
We see a barrier, about 3.5ft tall and each barrier, has folded seats.

2. Mainz Opel arena
http://www.groundhopping.se/res/Mainz/entegatribne.jpg
Pay special attention to the entrances. Those entrances are wide. A mini lorry could easily drive in through the entrances and have the place for a small car.

What I thought of, is a combination of all the three.

1. We limit the tickets into the standing zones.
2. We erect safe standing barriers.
3. We build 1 entrance every 2 sections. Which means, only 2500 people pass through an electronic turnstile. And there are 5 entrances. The section themselves do not have any barriers between them. So, the whole stand would be housing a massive 12500 number of fans that are standing. Imagine a Mainz stadium with Hannover barriers.

The stadium/stand will obviously be regulated by security men in neon uniforms and will be CCTVed.

[ghirl67]

Correct me if im wrong here:
Take the kop for safe standing, the capacity could be increased in there with more standing to sitting ratio, therefore increasing capacity, we get to stand which we do anyway, better atmosphere, the club can reduce ticket prices in there slightly, i say slighty making everyone happy! No?
Also it would only be a one off cost to convert it as well meaning it would pay for itself over a short period of time!!
Winner???

You will require rail seating as UEFA still requires seats for European games.  You wouldn't want the Kop empty on a European night.

The ratio will depend on what your Council are willing to approve and grant you a safety certificate for. Ours (Celtic's) is 1:1. I imagine the Police and emergency services had a say in that as well.

I recall reading that it cost Celtic 500K (approx)  to convert 6 blocks comprising  3000 seats  (approx) to a safe standing/rail seating area holding the same amount of people.

[andyw79]

Probably not worth it to fsg unless theres an increase in capacity, might happen sometime further down the line.

[Nessy76]

As I understand it, the plan for safe standing/rail seating is a lot more rigorous than that. Each spectator is allocated a space and they are expected to stay there, just as you are currently expected to stay in your seat. There is no call for the sort of open free-for-all where you have over 1000 people free to wander around in a given space.

I don't know how they test various elements of safety, but the method you describe seems both complicated and ineffective. You could tell quite easily if you can fit 1250 people into an enclosed space without actually rounding up twelve hundred odd volunteers. What you would need to know are things like how quickly a paramedic could get to someone at the centre of a section. What is there to prevent a crush or a lot of people falling? How quickly could you evacuate the section? What's the rake/angle and does that provide an acceptable view for those standing behind others. (Again, in the proposals I've seen it's only ever at most two people between the rows per space, but if you were to simply cram 1000 in any old how, you'd need to be sure they could all see without crowding to the front.)

I don't really see what you would learn from simply bundling a load of people into a space that you already know is big enough to hold them, am I missing something here?

I recommend you have a read through some of the posts from early in the thread where the details of the rail seating plan were set out (or linked to, I forget) and have a close look at how they are doing things at Celtic Park, which will be much closer to anything you're likely to see at a Premier League ground.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I don't really see what you would learn from simply bundling a load of people into a space that you already know is big enough to hold them, am I missing something here?

I recommend you have a read through some of the posts from early in the thread where the details of the rail seating plan were set out (or linked to, I forget) and have a close look at how they are doing things at Celtic Park, which will be much closer to anything you're likely to see at a Premier League ground.

I only bought up the stand we designed to illustrate the safety w.r.t. the structural integrity and factor of safety. Nothing to do, whatsoever, with fan safety during the game.  But I guess that's not what you were probably interested in. My bad.

I went through the first 12 pages. And I found this post the most interesting.

Al - look at the video on here, it'll show how the standing/seating works in a real stadium environment.

http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/view/safe-standing-campaign

In this link, was this video.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/apX5V1IJCW4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/apX5V1IJCW4</a>

This was there in the recommended video list.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HOG2QNGckSs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/HOG2QNGckSs</a>

And another one.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/m-QawYMcYQQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/m-QawYMcYQQ</a>

These videos convey what I wanted to post. Safe standing at Celtic park and Hannover.  I took up Mainz because I live here (and have been to Mainz games) and the design of the wide entrances and the long corridor that it connects to, make an interesting combination with the rails for safe standing if implemented correctly.

[whiteboots]

No they haven't. They've made a grand total of £0.

Quoting one part of a sentence is pretty foolish.

What I said was: "FSG have made a lot of money at Anfield by ensuring an undersupply of capacity, creating seats that always attract a premium."

That is factually true. By limiting capacity firstly by not taking the 60k consented New Anfield, and then by building the new Main Stand only, they have restricted supply when demand has always been greater, thereby keeping ticket prices higher than would have been possible than if they were having to fill seats.

[CraigDS]

What I said was: "FSG have made a lot of money at Anfield by ensuring an undersupply of capacity, creating seats that always attract a premium."

That is factually true.

Other than it actually isn't, as FSG have made no money at Anfield.

[whiteboots]

Other than it actually isn't, as FSG have made no money at Anfield.

You are quoting the term "making money" in two incongruous contexts.

I have pointed out that by restricting capacity, FSG have been able to inflate ticket price revenues, thereby making more money in the sense of generating greater revenues.

I assume, although it is for you to explain, that you are using the term "making money" in  that FSG have yet to make money in the sense of profit or dividends taken out of LFC. However you will be relieved to know that when thy come to sell, that will be put right handsomely.

I hope that helps.

What is clear is that for so long as demand outstrips capacity for existing seats, FSG have no financial  incentive to install safe standing

[Nessy76]

I only bought up the stand we designed to illustrate the safety w.r.t. the structural integrity and factor of safety. Nothing to do, whatsoever, with fan safety during the game.  But I guess that's not what you were probably interested in. My bad.

I see.
I'm still curious as to why you would actually need to fill that with people though? What is that telling you that you didn't know before?

[Nessy76]

You are quoting the term "making money" in two incongruous contexts.

I have pointed out that by restricting capacity, FSG have been able to inflate ticket price revenues, thereby making more money in the sense of generating greater revenues.

I assume, although it is for you to explain, that you are using the term "making money" in  that FSG have yet to make money in the sense of profit or dividends taken out of LFC. However you will be relieved to know that when thy come to sell, that will be put right handsomely.

I hope that helps.

What is clear is that for so long as demand outstrips capacity for existing seats, FSG have no financial  incentive to install safe standing

I think "making money" is usually taken to mean profits, that's certainly what I thought you meant. As for "when they come to sell" we've had enough tedious (and wrong) speculation about that, (whatever did happen to Everbright?) give it a rest, please.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I see.
I'm still curious as to why you would actually need to fill that with people though? What is that telling you that you didn't know before?

In my example with the safe standing, it is done to estimate how many people could safely be sent in before closing each section of the stand. Because the safe standing is totally different to a normal terrace and there are different ways in which a safe standing rails could be constructed, we need a way to estimate when the gates should be closed. It also provides a way for the club to test emergency response when the game is going on, how are the comfort levels of people when such a response happens. Plus should a calamity (god forbid!) happen, how quickly can people be evicted from the stand and/or how quickly can police be available on call. This helps in understanding the design of the safe standing, the policing, the ER and how/where to optimize them (at a future date).

In my project, it was to estimate where/how the loads were distributed. We aim at an even distribution of load and balanced forces through the stand legs. This is vital for the structural integrity in case, for whatever reason, more people decide to stand on it. And hence the factor of safety.

In Germany, they usually have a limit between 1.4 to 1.6 as the ratio between seating and standing. And if I remember right, it cannot exceed 1.8. So, for a stand that seats 10000, anywhere between 14000 to 16000 standing fans could be safely let in. And under no circumstances, exceed 18000. This, of course, is considering rail seating design, exit gates proximity, emergency response and police access to each and every one of the standing fan.

[Nessy76]

In my example with the safe standing, it is done to estimate how many people could safely be sent in before closing each section of the stand. Because the safe standing is totally different to a normal terrace and there are different ways in which a safe standing rails could be constructed, we need a way to estimate when the gates should be closed. It also provides a way for the club to test emergency response when the game is going on, how are the comfort levels of people when such a response happens. Plus should a calamity (god forbid!) happen, how quickly can people be evicted from the stand and/or how quickly can police be available on call. This helps in understanding the design of the safe standing, the policing, the ER and how/where to optimize them (at a future date).

In my project, it was to estimate where/how the loads were distributed. We aim at an even distribution of load and balanced forces through the stand legs. This is vital for the structural integrity in case, for whatever reason, more people decide to stand on it. And hence the factor of safety.

In Germany, they usually have a limit between 1.4 to 1.6 as the ratio between seating and standing. And if I remember right, it cannot exceed 1.8. So, for a stand that seats 10000, anywhere between 14000 to 16000 standing fans could be safely let in. And under no circumstances, exceed 18000. This, of course, is considering rail seating design, exit gates proximity, emergency response and police access to each and every one of the standing fan.

I see, thanks.
I thought most of that was done by computer modelling now?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I see, thanks.
I thought most of that was done by computer modelling now?

Structural integrity and design optimisation, yes. There are Softwares that can estimate, given a design, how many bricks you might need, ho many kilos of cement, how much litres of water, where to start the building, what ratio of cement-water-sand to use etc. And some could even suggest minute changes to the design to save some money here and there. I was astonished to see what some these modern Softwares can do.

But on the human factors side, ER, comfort levels of fans, CCTV coverage zones and other forms of crowd control, still depend on manual testing procedures.

[whiteboots]

I think "making money" is usually taken to mean profits, that's certainly what I thought you meant.

The mad world of football means that however much more money you generate, there is always something, usually player fees, wages and agents, to swallow it up. Profit is a rarity.

I think there is little doubt that railed, 1/1 safe standing, offers no cash dividend, so is unlikely in stadia that are routinely sold out seating.

Yet clubs, our own included, write off tens of millions on manager and player pay offs, and transfer losses. Money that is gone forever. is investing in our fans, those fans who want to stand and create atmosphere, wrong?

[Nessy76]

The mad world of football means that however much more money you generate, there is always something, usually player fees, wages and agents, to swallow it up. Profit is a rarity.

I think there is little doubt that railed, 1/1 safe standing, offers no cash dividend, so is unlikely in stadia that are routinely sold out seating.

Yet clubs, our own included, write off tens of millions on manager and player pay offs, and transfer losses. Money that is gone forever. is investing in our fans, those fans who want to stand and create atmosphere, wrong?

Daft question. Nobody plans to sack a manager and give him a pay off when they hire him. That situation doesn't mean you should just merrily piss away cash all over the place, it means that there is less to go around.

Any decision that will cost millions needs to have some sort of return. Otherwise you go down the route that some were suggesting of making every seat in the ground £30. And yes, the club could do that, but have a peek in the transfer forum and see how many people think we should be spending more already. There was even someone complaining that Coutinho's new deal wasn't high enough to attract big name players. So if you take away a massive source of income you need to reduce your spending. Maybe you think we should sell a few players to pay for it? Good luck with that.

In the end, the club is a business, and since the owners don't take profits, it means that all income is spent, mostly on the playing staff. And we don't have the best squad in the world, so that's still the priority.

Now if there's a good financial case for making changes to Anfield, then let's hear it, but most match going fans, and almost all of those watching around the world, care more about the team than whether people are standing at the game.

[whiteboots]

Now if there's a good financial case for making changes to Anfield, then let's hear it, but most match going fans, and almost all of those watching around the world, care more about the team than whether people are standing at the game.

Fair comment.

There is no short term financial case for safe standing.

You are right that there is no excuse for routinely frittering away money - but we still do it on manager pay offs and player losses.

My point is that we accept that. We do so on the basis that it is just part of football, some things lose money. So why not accommodate the wishes of a significant swathe of our match going support on the basis that some things in football lose money, but it is the right thing to do?

[RJH]

Fair comment.

There is no short term financial case for safe standing.

You are right that there is no excuse for routinely frittering away money - but we still do it on manager pay offs and player losses.

My point is that we accept that. We do so on the basis that it is just part of football, some things lose money. So why not accommodate the wishes of a significant swathe of our match going support on the basis that some things in football lose money, but it is the right thing to do?

Manager pay-offs and player losses don't happen because the owners aren't bothered about losing money.
It's the opposite. They're done because in the long run, it's seen as a better financial decision.

That's different to making a decision that, from the beginning, doesn't make sense financially.

[Original]

Tell you one thing, I just hope it comes in because if I ever have to sit down in the Kop, I won't fit in the bloody seat.

[whiteboots]

That's different to making a decision that, from the beginning, doesn't make sense financially.

Owning a football club doesn't make sense, financially. Some make money, most do not.

Accommodating the wishes of a significant sector of your paying support, does make sense. Ensuring that those who wish to pay to sit can see also makes sense.

[free_at_last]

Owning a football club doesn't make sense, financially. Some make money, most do not.

Accommodating the wishes of a significant sector of your paying support, does make sense. Ensuring that those who wish to pay to sit can see also makes sense.

Can I just add that we KNOW we are going to lose money on managers, players and wages. We just need to look at the stats
for the last 20 or 30 years(I haven't got them but I'd be prepared to bet that there is a significant loss every year but we 
accept that).
  Surely there are other intangibles such as "customer satisfaction" and "brand". Look at the main stand - even if it didn't
make a profit we've got 8 thousand extra "customers" who are just happy to be watching the Reds, I get the impression that
the noise and atmosphere has improved with the extra 8k and the status that it gives to Liverpool F.C as a brand is huge
as pictures beam round the world, not to mention the kudos that FSG earn and the extra support that the team can get that
can translate into points and prize money.
 I'm not talking about sums of money like the difference between a new stadium and a redevelopment - amounts that could
put us in jeopardy but I think it's perfectly acceptable to make a loss on some ground infrastructure(eg rail seats, ARE) when the
intangibles will justify the(relatively minor) loss.

[whiteboots]

Agreed free_at_last.

If owning a football club was just about making money, FSG could have reduced capacity at Anfield by increasing the number of corporate seats.

In some areas, you do things at a football club- because its a football club.

[Ratboy3G]

http://www.fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/rail-seating-licensed-in-league-one-and-two

a step in the right direction  👍

[Jake]

Get in.

[Billy Elliot]

I wonder that if we are allowed them, whether UEFA would persist in making clubs put seats in for European games?

If we are allowed them and another one of the big leagues follow suite (Italy or Spain), it's going to get a bit silly if all clubs are putting seats back in for the European games.

As well as Germany there's already a few decent sized leagues such as Switzerland and Austria who have rail seats or terracing. 

[CraigDS]

I wonder that if we are allowed them, whether UEFA would persist in making clubs put seats in for European games?

If we are allowed them and another one of the big leagues follow suite (Italy or Spain), it's going to get a bit silly if all clubs are putting seats back in for the European games.

As well as Germany there's already a few decent sized leagues such as Switzerland and Austria who have rail seats or terracing.

The safe standing seats don't require putting in for games though, just unlocking, so can't see why UEFA would necessarily change their stance if these were allowed. I mean they still insist on no alcohol being sold in the ground despite it being allowed for league games.

[Eeyore]

The safe standing seats don't require putting in for games though, just unlocking, so can't see why UEFA would necessarily change their stance if these were allowed. I mean they still insist on no alcohol being sold in the ground despite it being allowed for league games.

Correct but the extra exits and walkways needed for safe standing mean that when you unlock those seats you actually end up with a lower capacity for your most in demand games. A big European night with actually less fans than you would of had.

[CraigDS]

Correct but the extra exits and walkways needed for safe standing mean that when you unlock those seats you actually end up with a lower capacity for your most in demand games. A big European night with actually less fans than you would of had.

Yeah quite possibly - you any idea about the required number of stairs/exits compared to those in current seated areas?

[Eeyore]

Yeah quite possibly - you any idea about the required number of stairs/exits compared to those in current seated areas?

It will be calculated using the green guide and largely dependent on the time it takes to safely clear the stand. As the crowd density increases so does the requirement for extra exits/walkways.  Every stand will be different and different areas of stands may end up with lower densities .

[Jake]

I'd give up losing a few during the rare big European night in exchange for thousands more week in week out in the league I think. Good point though.

[CraigDS]

It will be calculated using the green guide and largely dependent on the time it takes to safely clear the stand. As the crowd density increases so does the requirement for extra exits/walkways.  Every stand will be different and different areas of stands may end up with lower densities .

No I know why, was just wondering just how much it would be cut by.

The Upper Centenary is seeing every stairwell narrowed by a seat width this summer, so the density is being increased there a fair amount. So wondering how much the current stairwells and exits could handle.

[Welshred]

It will be calculated using the green guide and largely dependent on the time it takes to safely clear the stand. As the crowd density increases so does the requirement for extra exits/walkways.  Every stand will be different and different areas of stands may end up with lower densities .

Surely the Kop must be right on the edge of the green guide now? Can take up to 10 minutes to get out of the 300s at the end of a game.

[whiteboots]

It will be calculated using the green guide and largely dependent on the time it takes to safely clear the stand. As the crowd density increases so does the requirement for extra exits/walkways.  Every stand will be different and different areas of stands may end up with lower densities .

Curiously, anecdotally, I recall a packed standing Kop emptying faster than the current seated Kop with half the capacity. Is my memory failing me?

[Eeyore]

Curiously, anecdotally, I recall a packed standing Kop emptying faster than the current seated Kop with half the capacity. Is my memory failing me?

In some ways it was easier to empty an old fashioned terrace because you could duck under the barriers and go up and down as well as side to side first. Looking back at being able to lift your feet up and be carried along on the central walkway I am not sure how safe it was.

[Smurfite]

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/rail-seating-the-final-steps-to-making-a-decision

[Ratboy3G]

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/rail-seating-the-final-steps-to-making-a-decision

http://www.fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/spirit-of-shankly-to-vote-rail-seat-may-2017-anfield-wrap-celtic

[Adamski LFC]

Any word from SOS about the final word now the date has passed?

[Macred]

Any word from SOS about the final word now the date has passed?

Still nothing? Did the meeting in May take place?