Topic: The Irish Politics Thread.

[legendkiller]

The ROI not changing it's Constitution is a bold claim .

Out of interest is faith in Religion strong in the North . There has been massive drop offs in the South attending church etc and the Catholic Church power is at an all time low as must people are well aware .

[McrRed]

The ROI not changing it's Constitution is a bold claim .

Out of interest is faith in Religion strong in the North . There has been massive drop offs in the South attending church etc and the Catholic Church power is at an all time low as must people are well aware .

Me Ma would say that's a good thing having had far too much to do with gobshite priests in her time.

[legendkiller]

Me Ma would say that's a good thing having had far too much to do with gobshite priests in her time.

Oh yeah no doubt they disgraced themselves and should be made more accountable for their crimes as the nuns and the brothers .

[Purple Red]

The ROI not changing it's Constitution is a bold claim .

Out of interest is faith in Religion strong in the North . There has been massive drop offs in the South attending church etc and the Catholic Church power is at an all time low as must people are well aware .

It varies. There is still a strong attachment to religion in rural areas of Northern Ireland but again this is inconsistent. In bigger urban areas there are fewer churchgoers but again there are still strong adherents in big towns and cities. There is still a nominal attachment across the board. I don't know the statistics but I imagine the majority of people in NI still opt for religious weddings as opposed to civil ceremonies. There are non church goers who like to have their children baptised into a specific denomination. Religion may not be a priority for the most of us in NI now, but it is still part of many a person's identity.

[zamagiure]

Fucking hell, don't think I've ever heard a better speech ever, than Clinton just delivered at MMG's funeral.  Extraordinary.

What a speech. I watched the Funeral Mass and this was the standout moment.

[cowtownred]

What a speech. I watched the Funeral Mass and this was the standout moment.

Sheer brilliance.

What an orator he is. With Blair the best in my lifetime.  Just added an extra oomph to what was already an amazing situation.

Mind you, I need to say how amazing was the reception given to Arlene Foster?  I can't personally stomach the woman, but to hear her given a round of applause by the Bogside knocked me out.

[Thoros Of Myr]

I dont think I can put into words how powerful it was to see the funeral pass through the the Bog today.

Derry will never see anything like that again.

[whiteboots]

No IRA guard of honour or gun salute either. It was signal recognition of where his legacy lies, in peace and reconciliation.

[kennedy81]

Thanks guys for an interesting discussion.......it could have degenerated into mud-slinging but instead there are many good posts.

The jobs issue is one that I think needs to be addressed first. The ROI wouldn't be able to afford to pay for the public sector jobs. Neither do I think a UI with no border with NI would work........so forget about the border poll as it doesn't for me work.

Ok so we voted to stay within the EU so why not float that idea first. An Independent NI which gets grants from the EU (and USA) to kick-start a new economy. Would the EU do this though? I think once the public sector overhead issue is solved then other flexible ideas could be explored.

I cannot see a UI being a solution as it would not be accepted nor do I think the ROI would change its constitution. One radical idea would be for the 4 provinces to be self-governing under a central government, which is the USA model. An agreement would need to be put into place to protect all sections of the island......mainly catholic and protestant minorities in certain areas. If the minorities are not protected then they will just distil into a smaller area and erect their own borders (like no-go areas). The ROI would need to be dissolved in this model.......no flag or national anthem.....or a new flag etc. I can't see unionists being happy with the ROI flag etc.

I very much doubt if the ROI would change so I cannot see the above idea being a runner.

All I have left is an independent NI where both sides are protected and work together. There would be strong links to ROI and to GB as this is where the majority of trade would be. It would take a huge investment and I don't know where the money would come from. What if one side tried to dominate and war broke out.......nobody could stop it.

I really is difficult and to be honest the current model is probably best but with a plan to be self-sufficient.

The ROI has already changed it's constitution when we signed the Good Friday agreement. We changed it so that we it no longer made any claims regarding the north, thereby protecting NI peoples right to self determination. That mightn't sound like much, but it was unthinkable a generation earlier.

Southern Irish people are an adaptable bunch, you might be surprised what we'd be agreeable to. You only have to look at how readily we took up EU membership and all it entailed, including giving up our old currency.
I agree that the ROI in it's current form would have to be essentially 're-made', and if that meant a new flag or new anthem, I'd have no problem with that. I could totally see how the tricolour could be problematic for some people up there, given that it represents different things to them, to what it represents down here.
Our anthem is a dirge and has needed binning for years. It's too rooted in our troubled past and says little or nothing about our present and future.

North and south we're essentially an island of English speaking Europeans with close cultural and economic ties to the UK and US. So given we've that in common, it would be a sad state of affairs if everyone on this island couldn't just find a way to get on with it and make it work, without letting old tribal beefs get in the way, if it ever came to pass.
Being Irish means different things to different people down here, and we've a much more culturally diverse population than we had 20 years ago, so we're not averse to change or having new neighbours. This country has already changed in many ways in the past 20 years or so.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'protection of minorities'. Protection from what? People down here don't live in protestant areas or catholic areas. I'd like to think that things like that would become a thing of the past in the north over time in a united Ireland. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I'd like to think many protestant people would move south over time, as they'd have the whole island to call home.
Maybe over a generation or two, people from the North would feel less of a need to identify as catholic or protestant, as it would no longer have the political relevance which it has done for so long. People down here don't really identify themselves as catholic or protestant because there's very little reason to. Apologies if all this sounds totally mad to you mate, I'm just thinking aloud here.

The economic implications and the legal/political mechanics of it all are too complicated for the likes of me to understand, and I'm sure it wouldn't be simple. But compared to the formation of the EU for instance, or the unification of Germany in the early 90s, it's small potatoes logistically speaking.
The whole process would have to be done gradually over a number of years before it was finalized. It couldn't just happen over night on the basis of referendum results.

[BobOnATank]

The ROI would need to be dissolved in this model.......no flag or national anthem.....or a new flag etc. I can't see unionists being happy with the ROI flag etc.

I very much doubt if the ROI would change so I cannot see the above idea being a runner.

I really is difficult and to be honest the current model is probably best but with a plan to be self-sufficient.

Not sure how much better of a flag you could logically get its green, irish; white neutral; and orange, prods

ROI would change no concerns there, why do you think Sinn Fein does quite well in the south, they demand change, UI IMO would be a welcome rethink of the constitution.

[BobOnATank]

I have read your posts with great interest and I can't agree that there is a significant proportion of the unionist community who feel this way. The majority of unionists I have encountered at home, whether they be working class loyalists or more middle class civic unionists, take for granted that we are part of the UK by default. There are also plenty of small 'u' unionists who don't identify as such but take part in the NI state and see it as the preferred state of affairs. Personally, I will never support a United Ireland as it makes no economic sense and the potential for a return to serious civil disorder is a real one. This is how the majority of the unionist community think.

You are correct with your statements but only if we make no effort to manage the situation. The UK and then EU would have to invest significant sums of money to restructure the economy in order for people to have long term jobs and therefore to look after their families - the root cause of terrorism/freedom fighters - its that simple. NI at the moment is an artificial state that is funded by England, in say 10 years time if England goes even more insular and then they begin to target NI and the Ł9bn per annum that it costs them for basically a nightmare and something they do not understand, well they'll try to remove it....

[BobOnATank]

Interesting thread. As a regular visitor to NI I have an interest in it but not the knowledge or experience to offer much opinion. Frankly (and selfishly!) as long as the current status quo where I always feel welcome doesn't change I don't feel too strongly about what happens in the long term.

The Public Sector jobs point is a valid one though surely. I know there are a lot of UK Government departments who employ people in NI. Surely risk/fear of losing them would very quite an influencing factor when it came to any future referendum on a United Ireland?

It would be if it wasn't managed, just like for example the british involvement in NI over the last 90 years. But it can be managed, as you say there is no problem with the people and the place, it the politics that are the issue. But Arlene Foster went to the Bogside yesterday and got applauded, Gerry said that equality is the most important thing, he is correct. However the biggest threat to Ireland is the british establishment as portrayed by Heseltine and that other coward dickhead Til someone, didn't enjoy his holiday in Brighton.

[BobOnATank]

Fucking hell, don't think I've ever heard a better speech ever, than Clinton just delivered at MMG's funeral.  Extraordinary.

Truly an historic speech, completely agree https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/844941670344867841

[N0rnIr0nRed]

You are correct with your statements but only if we make no effort to manage the situation. The UK and then EU would have to invest significant sums of money to restructure the economy in order for people to have long term jobs and therefore to look after their families - the root cause of terrorism/freedom fighters - its that simple. NI at the moment is an artificial state that is funded by England, in say 10 years time if England goes even more insular and then they begin to target NI and the Ł9bn per annum that it costs them for basically a nightmare and something they do not understand, well they'll try to remove it....

None of that changes if the Republic had to take on and pay for Northern Ireland. Probably even more of a burden to them.
My sentiment is similar to Purple Red. Can't see there being lasting peace or economic prosperity if Northern Ireland had to be part of the Republic.

Lot of big moments and big words in the last few days. Unfortunately it looks like NI is heading back to Direct rule.

[stockdam]

I'm at a loss to completely understand what is going on in Stormont.

For me Sinn Fein need to be very specific as to why Martin McGuinness resigned. It appears to be partially about grants for Irish Language courses and a general statement about respect and equality. The Cash For Ash issue appears to have been dropped. Well can they be specific please as it's hard to see what needs to be done. What did the DUP block?

I also see that it's about the UK government forcing Brexit against the wishes of the NI people and that Brexit will strengthen the UK. Well that for me is tantamount to Sinn Fein not wanting to accept that Bexit was a democratic vote and everyone has to accept it whatever the outcome. You can't cherry-pick regions.....the London region voted to remain so can they object on the same basis?

If NI isn't happy with Brexit then object in parliament but if Bexit progresses, then the only option left is to do what Scotland may do and leave the UK.

It's the usual blame and counter-blame that makes it hard to work out what is going on. If Sinn Fein say that there's an issue with respect and equality then please be specific. I pay these peoples' wages (well not just me) so why can't both parties be very clear on what is wrong instead of standing in front of the TV making generic statements whilst their nodding dog supporters nod in the background.

In the meantime, remove all of the pay for the Stormont MPs.........why should I pay tax for a group who aren't working or who cannot be specific as to what went wrong.

[killer-heels]

I'm at a loss to completely understand what is going on in Stormont.

For me Sinn Fein need to be very specific as to why Martin McGuinness resigned. It appears to be partially about grants for Irish Language courses and a general statement about respect and equality. The Cash For Ash issue appears to have been dropped. Well can they be specific please as it's hard to see what needs to be done. What did the DUP block?

I also see that it's about the UK government forcing Brexit against the wishes of the NI people and that Brexit will strengthen the UK. Well that for me is tantamount to Sinn Fein not wanting to accept that Bexit was a democratic vote and everyone has to accept it whatever the outcome. You can't cherry-pick regions.....the London region voted to remain so can they object on the same basis?

If NI isn't happy with Brexit then object in parliament but if Bexit progresses, then the only option left is to do what Scotland may do and leave the UK.

It's the usual blame and counter-blame that makes it hard to work out what is going on. If Sinn Fein say that there's an issue with respect and equality then please be specific. I pay these peoples' wages (well not just me) so why can't both parties be very clear on what is wrong instead of standing in front of the TV making generic statements whilst their nodding dog supporters nod in the background.

In the meantime, remove all of the pay for the Stormont MPs.........why should I pay tax for a group who aren't working or who cannot be specific as to what went wrong.

How can you equate NI to London? Personally, I love the chaos and more of it please. Seeing as there is no opposition to the government, maximum chaos and maximum constitutional issues are the only way to oppose those who are in charge.

[Cliff Bastin]

I'm at a loss to completely understand what is going on in Stormont.

For me Sinn Fein need to be very specific as to why Martin McGuinness resigned. It appears to be partially about grants for Irish Language courses and a general statement about respect and equality. The Cash For Ash issue appears to have been dropped. Well can they be specific please as it's hard to see what needs to be done. What did the DUP block?

I also see that it's about the UK government forcing Brexit against the wishes of the NI people and that Brexit will strengthen the UK. Well that for me is tantamount to Sinn Fein not wanting to accept that Bexit was a democratic vote and everyone has to accept it whatever the outcome. You can't cherry-pick regions.....the London region voted to remain so can they object on the same basis?

If NI isn't happy with Brexit then object in parliament but if Bexit progresses, then the only option left is to do what Scotland may do and leave the UK.

It's the usual blame and counter-blame that makes it hard to work out what is going on. If Sinn Fein say that there's an issue with respect and equality then please be specific. I pay these peoples' wages (well not just me) so why can't both parties be very clear on what is wrong instead of standing in front of the TV making generic statements whilst their nodding dog supporters nod in the background.

In the meantime, remove all of the pay for the Stormont MPs.........why should I pay tax for a group who aren't working or who cannot be specific as to what went wrong.

Sinn Fein can make red lines and talk about issues they have and so on but they seem to be forgetting that they aren't the only party with a mandate. The DUP did win the election, lets not forget. By one seat but they still won it and I am sure the DUP would have a few demands of their own like a military covenant but would Sinn Fein accept that?

The extremist parties keep getting elected, so expect extremist positions. Best hope is for direct rule until both parties can forge out a realistic agreement.

[stockdam]

How can you equate NI to London? Personally, I love the chaos and more of it please. Seeing as there is no opposition to the government, maximum chaos and maximum constitutional issues are the only way to oppose those who are in charge.

I'm comparing to London as it's a part of the UK like NI. Both had a majority of voters who wanted to remain.

I'd rather not see chaos in NI as it leads to instability.

[killer-heels]

I'm comparing to London as it's a part of the UK like NI. Both had a majority of voters who wanted to remain.

I'd rather not see chaos in NI as it leads to instability.

Yes but its not a case of cherry picking regions here. London doesn't have a leg to stand on but the likes of NI and Scotland cannot be lumped into the same boat as UK regions.

[stockdam]

Sinn Fein can make red lines and talk about issues they have and so on but they seem to be forgetting that they aren't the only party with a mandate. The DUP did win the election, lets not forget. By one seat but they still won it and I am sure the DUP would have a few demands of their own like a military covenant but would Sinn Fein accept that?

The extremist parties keep getting elected, so expect extremist positions. Best hope is for direct rule until both parties can forge out a realistic agreement.

I'm not really interested at this stage in what the DUP want. It was Sinn Fein who issued statements about equality and respect..........what exactly does that mean and what do they want.

The skeptic in me says that they do not want Bexit so that means that they want to lift the ball and stop playing and then try to force some change. I doubt that they are going to list the issues and that also implies to me that they are playing "politics". They see it as a chance to force a vote on the border and on Brexit (maybe not). Their aim to me is a UI and they are not interested in anything discussing anything else at present......I'm sure I'm jumping to conclusions.

SinnFein aren't really that worried about Brexit but are making it an issue to highlight the advantages of a UI. However all I can see is more instability especially if Direct Rule comes in. It won't be long before the bullies will be out on the streets causing riots (both sides) and things could deteriorate very quickly.

[stockdam]

Yes but its not a case of cherry picking regions here. London doesn't have a leg to stand on but the likes of NI and Scotland cannot be lumped into the same boat as UK regions.

NI and Scotland were both "ok" with going into the vote as neither expected any outcome other than a remain outcome. Why did neither object to the vote in the first place? Now that the outcome is not what some wanted then it's too late to play that card. Were where all of the people before the vote stating that it wasn't democratic.

Btw I don't think leaving the EU will be good but I have to accept a democratic vote.

[Cliff Bastin]

I'm not really interested at this stage in what the DUP want. It was Sinn Fein who issued statements about equality and respect..........what exactly does that mean and what do they want.

The skeptic in me says that they do not want Bexit so that means that they want to lift the ball and stop playing and then try to force some change. I doubt that they are going to list the issues and that also implies to me that they are playing "politics". They see it as a chance to force a vote on the border and on Brexit (maybe not). Their aim to me is a UI and they are not interested in anything discussing anything else at present......I'm sure I'm jumping to conclusions.

SinnFein aren't really that worried about Brexit but are making it an issue to highlight the advantages of a UI. However all I can see is more instability especially if Direct Rule comes in. It won't be long before the bullies will be out on the streets causing riots (both sides) and things could deteriorate very quickly.

The only person who can call for a border poll is the secretary of state. No evidence exists that it is viable to have one right now. So that is pie in the sky. I don't think even Sinn Fein are that thick. They can't do anything about Brexit as far as NI remaining within the EU.

[killer-heels]

NI and Scotland were both "ok" with going into the vote as neither expected any outcome other than a remain outcome. Why did neither object to the vote in the first place? Now that the outcome is not what some wanted then it's too late to play that card. Were where all of the people before the vote stating that it wasn't democratic.

Btw I don't think leaving the EU will be good but I have to accept a democratic vote.

Fuck the outcome. If the nation in which they reside voted for whatever option then they should be free to determine what relationship they want or do not want in the Union, or choose a new way forward provided thats what the people want.

Personally I think there should be a Scottish Independence vote and unification of Ireland vote. Let the people of those countries choose their own future and then they can stick whichever option they want.

The idea that a country should now accept its fate despite its public making clear they don't share that fate is mad. England and Wales should accept their fate but NI and Scotland should not.

[stockdam]

Fuck the outcome. If the nation in which they reside voted for whatever option then they should be free to determine what relationship they want or do not want in the Union, or choose a new way forward provided thats what the people want.

Personally I think there should be a Scottish Independence vote and unification of Ireland vote. Let the people of those countries choose their own future and then they can stick whichever option they want.

The idea that a country should now accept its fate despite its public making clear they don't share that fate is mad. England and Wales should accept their fate but NI and Scotland should not.

And fair enough......Scotland and NI can leave the UK if they wish to. They will then have the problem of setting up agreements with the EU.

As for NI, leaving the UK doesn't automatically result in a vote for a UI. The majority have said Yes to remain in the EU, Yes to remain in the UK and No to a United Ireland. So how does a Yes to remain part of the UK and a Yes to remain in the EU stack up? Sinn Fein are looking at the Yes to the EU and ignoring the Yes to the UK.......but then that's politics.

But why did nobody in Scotland or NI make any statements before the vote? They were all caught off-guard (like a lot of people) when the vote went the wrong way.

I'm not sure what Sinn Fein want nor will they clearly say......"respect and equality" are nice concepts (well they are essential) but where exactly are they not getting it; people can deal with specific issues but not generic terms. I fear that they are trying to muddy the waters and throw a lot of statements into the pond whereas they need to be very specific as to what their grievances are.

[Corkboy]

Fuck the outcome. If the nation in which they reside voted for whatever option then they should be free to determine what relationship they want or do not want in the Union, or choose a new way forward provided thats what the people want.

Personally I think there should be a Scottish Independence vote and unification of Ireland vote. Let the people of those countries choose their own future and then they can stick whichever option they want.

The idea that a country should now accept its fate despite its public making clear they don't share that fate is mad. England and Wales should accept their fate but NI and Scotland should not.

I think I see your problem.

[Cliff Bastin]

Fuck the outcome. If the nation in which they reside voted for whatever option then they should be free to determine what relationship they want or do not want in the Union, or choose a new way forward provided thats what the people want.

Personally I think there should be a Scottish Independence vote and unification of Ireland vote. Let the people of those countries choose their own future and then they can stick whichever option they want.

The idea that a country should now accept its fate despite its public making clear they don't share that fate is mad. England and Wales should accept their fate but NI and Scotland should not.

Why? Both votes will come back as it is now. Waste of money.

[killer-heels]

I think I see your problem.

Yes fair enough. Still it cannot be compared to London.

[killer-heels]

Why? Both votes will come back as it is now. Waste of money.

Well then they will have decided that.

[Purple Red]

I'm not sure what Sinn Fein want nor will they clearly say......"respect and equality" are nice concepts (well they are essential) but where exactly are they not getting it; people can deal with specific issues but not generic terms. I fear that they are trying to muddy the waters and throw a lot of statements into the pond whereas they need to be very specific as to what their grievances are.

Was it not Gerry Adams himself who let slip that SF's equality policy is a "Trojan Horse"? I don't understand what their demands at the moment mean either. They're all slogans and light on detail. I think their ultimate goal is still a united Ireland but it may be that they feel the need to consolidate their moderate voters and attract new ones by finding a more relateable ideology. It's a bit mad though because both communities have equality these days.

[filopastry]

Was it not Gerry Adams himself who let slip that SF's equality policy is a "Trojan Horse"? I don't understand what their demands at the moment mean either. They're all slogans and light on detail. I think their ultimate goal is still a united Ireland but it may be that they feel the need to consolidate their moderate voters and attract new ones by finding a more relateable ideology. It's a bit mad though because both communities have equality these days.

Its probably fair to say that the DUP and its voters do have more issues with say immigrants or members of the LGBT community than other parties and their voters have.

Certainly where I grew up (before moving to London) is a hardline working class protestant, DUP supporting area and I think it could very safely be described as actively hostile to anyone who isn't a heterosexual white British protestant.

By all accounts Sinn Fein have been hoovering up votes from the immigrant population in the area.

[Cliff Bastin]

Was it not Gerry Adams himself who let slip that SF's equality policy is a "Trojan Horse"? I don't understand what their demands at the moment mean either. They're all slogans and light on detail. I think their ultimate goal is still a united Ireland but it may be that they feel the need to consolidate their moderate voters and attract new ones by finding a more relateable ideology. It's a bit mad though because both communities have equality these days.

Well that is obvious isn't it but they have to learn to give and take. They want an Irish language Act but apparently rejected the DUP on a military covenant. If you are going to talk about equality, then Unionists need to be listened to too and its own customs respected.

[KERRYKOP]

How can you equate NI to London? Personally, I love the chaos and more of it please. Seeing as there is no opposition to the government, maximum chaos and maximum constitutional issues are the only way to oppose those who are in charge.

People die when there is chaos in Northern Ireland...

[stockdam]

People die when there is chaos in Northern Ireland...

Exactly and that's why I'm concerned.

Currently I'm looking for an explanation from Sinn Fein as to what they really want. They are asking for equality and respect........equality for who and what is causing the inequality? Respect for what?

What I'm guessing is something to do with the following:

"We must defend the democratic mandate of the people to remain within the EU, through designated special status, which can secure the position of the entire island of Ireland within the European Union together".

So why did they not bring this up BEFORE the Brexit vote? They didn't ask for any special status then. We all went into the election accepting that democracy would prevail but now SF appear to me to be lifting the ball because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to.

I read the above statement from them and it appears to me to say "we don't want Brexit and we want to be part of an Ireland that is within the EU". So what's their plan other than bringing down the government? NI can decide to vote to leave the UK but I'm afraid that the ideology of a UI is not an option just now. All it will do is to move one community into a place where they don't want to be and that has a big danger of sparking off another 1969.

So for me they are playing one dangerous game and experience tells me that talking in NI is much, much better than direct rule. Rather than lifting the ball and claiming some unworkable esoteric position they should be doing their jobs and getting back to talks. I really have no more time for the drama and the posturing. Both sides need to talk and work out a way forward otherwise things could get ugly very quickly.........nobody deserves that shit again.

[zebenzui]

So why did they not bring this up BEFORE the Brexit vote? They didn't ask for any special status then. We all went into the election accepting that democracy would prevail but now SF appear to me to be lifting the ball because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to.

The mandate (in NI) to remain in the EU did not materialise before the referendum. It would have been somewhat premature, even just on the basis of semantics, to have made such statements pre-referendum.

You don't hose down your house before there's a fire.

[stockdam]

The mandate (in NI) to remain in the EU did not materialise before the referendum. It would have been somewhat premature, even just on the basis of semantics, to have made such statements pre-referendum.

You don't hose down your house before there's a fire.

Sorry I just don't buy that. They are now saying that it goes against the Belfast Agreement. So nobody in SF thought it through......"what's the worst case scenario"? If they were so convinced that they were correct then they should have made that clear before people voted. Instead they went with the democratic vote and now they want special status.

"You don't hose down your house before there's a fire."..........well you do if you predict that there's a good chance of a forest fire coming past your house.

It just smells of lifting the ball and leaving the game just because you don't like what happened.

[filopastry]

Sorry I just don't buy that. They are now saying that it goes against the Belfast Agreement. So nobody in SF thought it through......"what's the worst case scenario"? If they were so convinced that they were correct then they should have made that clear before people voted. Instead they went with the democratic vote and now they want special status.

"You don't hose down your house before there's a fire."..........well you do if you predict that there's a good chance of a forest fire coming past your house.

It just smells of lifting the ball and leaving the game just because you don't like what happened.

I think Sinn Fein have played a fair bit of politics over Brexit, while pro-Remain, they didn't exactly campaign for Remain massively enthusiastically during the referendum.

Possibly because they believe that Brexit may bring a United Ireland closer.

Mind you its not as bad as the DUP position on Brexit, being enthusiastically pro_Brexit in the area of the UK that benefits from EU membership more than anywhere else, basically because the party and its supporters make UKIP look open minded on immigration.

Living away I'm removed from NI politics these days but I would imagine there are some legitimate issues in Sinn Fein objections  amongst the political posturing, the abuse of the Petition of Concern with regards to Gay Marriage was an issue that other parties had issues with as well.

[killer-heels]

Sorry I just don't buy that. They are now saying that it goes against the Belfast Agreement. So nobody in SF thought it through......"what's the worst case scenario"? If they were so convinced that they were correct then they should have made that clear before people voted. Instead they went with the democratic vote and now they want special status.

"You don't hose down your house before there's a fire."..........well you do if you predict that there's a good chance of a forest fire coming past your house.

It just smells of lifting the ball and leaving the game just because you don't like what happened.

Its obvious that SF are using it for their own means. Who knows how much passion they exactly have for the EU itself as an institution. The main thing to see is how far they take it. Like Scotland, it suits their ultimate aim.

As for the referendum, should NI and the Republic accept whatever the UK decide? So if its hard border, greater restrictions on such a commin travel area, customs checks at the border?

[stockdam]

As for the referendum, should NI and the Republic accept whatever the UK decide? So if its hard border, greater restrictions on such a commin travel area, customs checks at the border?

In the short term it has nothing to do with the ROI as it's a UK decision whether to leave the EU or not.

As for the border, I would doubt if anything will happen as nobody wants it. There already is a hard border for anyone in NI but it is to the rest of the UK (GB). I don't think GB will care about the border, NI won't want it and the ROI won't want it. The EU may try to force it but in that case just stick two old boys on the border checkpoints who just wave at everybody.

You may find the issue of the border coming up if one side starts to be hit financially but I think there's no desire to implement it.

[stockdam]

There was a short debate on UTV tonight and it didn't sound too bad. Ok there was the usual party politics but Sinn Fein said that there were no new issues, just implementation issues.

Sinn Fein brought up the issue for access to justice for families. I think this means that the British Government should be held accountable for justice for families whose loved ones were killed during the Northern Ireland Troubles. Well that's a nice thing to have but as far as I'm concerned that then must cut both ways. Sorry Sinn Fein but you can't have this one-sided justice. It's either all or none and to be honest it's better moving on.

They mentioned a Bill of Rights for NI. I don't think anyone has a problem with that and I think the compliant is aimed more at the UK government. There will be issues that need to be debated and there will always be sticking points........especially when religious beliefs muddy the picture.

Irish Language is another issue. I kinda find this a strange one at times. A lot of money was spent in putting Gaeilge names on street signs in Belfast but I doubt if anyone really uses the names. I spend a lot of time with families in Dublin who are pretty fluent in Gaeilge but I've never heard them use the language apart from the odd phrase. They watch BBC instead of TG3. I really don't have any problem with the language but I do wonder if this is just s sideshow that could end up consuming lots of money (will all government documents need to be written in English and Gaeilge even though everyone is fluent in English?). I'd rather spend the money on the Health Service than a language that few people will use...........all schools should not have to teach Irish (maybe SF have dropped that suggestion).

Cash for Ash.......well yes there certainly needs to be an investigation as to what went on. I for one want to get paid a subsidy that is more than I spend........that's like printing money.

It also appears that the DUP and SF were the only ones discussing the issues and the other parties weren't involved. The problem in NI is that we have two extreme parties and I trust the more central parties to be more balanced. The more liberal parties said that there wasn't a big gulf and so I'm hopeful that this is the usual posturing we get from DUP and SF to show how "strong" they are.......it's a bit pathetic really.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

There was a short debate on UTV tonight and it didn't sound too bad. Ok there was the usual party politics but Sinn Fein said that there were no new issues, just implementation issues.

Sinn Fein brought up the issue for access to justice for families. I think this means that the British Government should be held accountable for justice for families whose loved ones were killed during the Northern Ireland Troubles. Well that's a nice thing to have but as far as I'm concerned that then must cut both ways. Sorry Sinn Fein but you can't have this one-sided justice. It's either all or none and to be honest it's better moving on.

They mentioned a Bill of Rights for NI. I don't think anyone has a problem with that and I think the compliant is aimed more at the UK government. There will be issues that need to be debated and there will always be sticking points........especially when religious beliefs muddy the picture.

Irish Language is another issue. I kinda find this a strange one at times. A lot of money was spent in putting Gaeilge names on street signs in Belfast but I doubt if anyone really uses the names. I spend a lot of time with families in Dublin who are pretty fluent in Gaeilge but I've never heard them use the language apart from the odd phrase. They watch BBC instead of TG3. I really don't have any problem with the language but I do wonder if this is just s sideshow that could end up consuming lots of money (will all government documents need to be written in English and Gaeilge even though everyone is fluent in English?). I'd rather spend the money on the Health Service than a language that few people will use...........all schools should not have to teach Irish (maybe SF have dropped that suggestion).

Cash for Ash.......well yes there certainly needs to be an investigation as to what went on. I for one want to get paid a subsidy that is more than I spend........that's like printing money.


It also appears that the DUP and SF were the only ones discussing the issues and the other parties weren't involved. The problem in NI is that we have two extreme parties and I trust the more central parties to be more balanced. The more liberal parties said that there wasn't a big gulf and so I'm hopeful that this is the usual posturing we get from DUP and SF to show how "strong" they are.......it's a bit pathetic really.

Two points:

Firstly, the British government had a duty as part of St. Andrews agreement to implement a language strategy, they have been found in breach of this at the high courts, it shouldn't even be an issue at this stage. The money argument is balls, you could throw the entire budget at the health service and still be found wanting, personally I couldn't give a fuck as there's bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Secondly, unless you have some legitimate grief (as so eloquently put by Bill Clinton) then I don't really feel you have the right to tell people to move on, regardless of their background. Read the harrowing accounts of people like Patsy Gillespie (used by the IRA in a proxy bomb) or James Wray (shot in the back on Bloody Sunday, then executed whilst disabled on the ground) and tell me you'd move on quite so easily.

None of the those involved should be given amnesty but the fact is, many IRA men (many non-IRA men too) that were caught were either interned or were processed through the courts (I won't go as far as to use the term 'due process'), only 4 soldiers were ever convicted of murder; though evidence exists that many of their (170 odd) killings were murder (14 on Bloody Sunday alone), you can also argue many terrorists were released under the GFA (both loyalist and republican) after only serving small parts of their sentences but the aforementioned soldiers were also released early. The crux is, the prosecutions were actively pursued for some whilst the crimes of others were actively covered up, buried in red tape or swept under the carpet.

This place will never be fixed until the British Government steps up to the plate and addresses legacy issues but that would mean acknowledging their involvement, so keep keep breathing.