Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[scumbagcollege]

A phrase of Rafa's springs to mind:   " I asked for a sofa and they got me a  lamp."
Lambert and Butler could fall into that category

Let's hear his best shot then.

Pack it in mate. It's bad for your health.

[Mr_Shane]

And just to be clear on the 'moaning, complaining whinging' aspect of the OP. It's the bedwetters that litter the Postmatch threads that boil my piss.

If you think Brendan should be sacked, fair enough, but do it in a calm controlled, objective manner. Tell us why you think it, if you do it in a post that contains sound reasoning you'll probably get a decent response.

Don't drop in a snidey one liner then disappear.

If you think there's problems, explain it logically, sensibly, and in a coherent manner, a proper conversation no matter the content is more likely to spark a decent debate than some of the shit people write in a fit of anger at our latest poor performance.

I have to agree with this, there is nothing wrong with debating why the club or the manager or a player did something right or wrong. Why.. I did it and still do with a certain ex-Liverpool manager who will not be named. But I think there needs to be a line drawn for the sort of comments that offer nothing except the same old repetitive comments which remind me more of a spoilt child venting at not getting his or her way than a debate.  Indeed why should I or indeed anyone care about a comment like

" we were awful therefore player X or manager Y needs to go"

if it is consistently spouted but can't be supported

[harryc]

...whether it be done rationally, irrationally, quietly or loudly?

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that some of RAWK's moderators and a swathe of both long standing and new posters seem to carry the notion that any overt criticism of the club, manager, management, owners, players etc etc is taboo; that those doing the complaining are displaying some sort of lack of loyalty; that sections of the media may latch onto it and...well... say nasty things about our club based upon what they read.   

Where the hell did this ridiculous notion come from?

From what I've witnessed over countless decades of matchgoing, pub going etc football supporters whether Liverpool, Everton or Marine have always ranked amongst the most critical breed of human kind I've ever come across ranging from those with completely sound and considered misgivings to ranting lunatics with scarcely an ounce of justification or logic in their barmy moronic bayings.

Yet from whichever end of the spectrum they might emanate, the pearls of wisdom/utter shite they pour out are and always have been a hugely vital part of what the game is about. Without such impassioned outpourings the game would not be the fantastic emotional cauldron it demands to be; those delivering the diatribes meanwhile whether completely sane and rational or loopy and misguided might as well all be watching tiddlywinks.

So, if anyone can tell me where the desire for such an embargo on ranting and raving about anything to do with our club has come from and why those doing it are regarded by those who don’t rant and rave as lesser fans – and vice versa – I'd be extremely grateful - and perhaps educated in ways beyond my current ken. [not King Ken btw  ]

Anyroad, now to the main issue related to what I can only term this sort of extreme sensitivity. 

The latest round of it was in connection with the loudly aired frustrations of several posters – with myself featured prominently – lambasting the club management for their pivotal role in our current indifferent form. This was by virtue of the club’s failure to expedite a transfer policy in the summer that met or went towards meeting the core need of the club to maintain as near as possible the form of the preceding season. 

The preceding season had seen the team’s success largely stemming from a pacy and mobile attacking approach spearheaded by two strikers who were not only ideally suited to such an approach but constituted the principal driving forces behind it. With the leading striker of the two leaving the club and the remaining striker a player highly prone to muscle injury and as such unable to be relied upon for a full season’s participation, it became incumbent upon the club management to ensure attacking outlets were acquired in the summer that could at least begin to replicate the performances of the attacking outlets.

The club duly signed Rickie Lambert and Mario Balotelli.

Now I have never been one to diss individual players out of hand. I make my judgements as to a player’s abilities and I would guess I’ve been wrong as often as I’ve been right concerning the abilities of such players. I do not diss them, however, whether at the match or on a public forum. So I have not and will not diss either of the two strikers we signed. It’s too early days in any case and they may or may not still have a part to play in the future of this club in roles they are suited to playing.

However, what I will say is that if the club had wanted to sign two strikers representing precisely the type of attacking outlet that we were not looking for to replicate the preceding season’s style of attacking play then the club would have plumped for Rickie Lambert and Mario Balotelli.

And, just to reinforce that notion, most certainly had the club genuinely been looking for players that were   suited to replicating the fast mobile attacking strategy Ricky and Mario would have come pretty low down on the target list or not made such a list at all.

As you might have gathered by now the piece I’ve compiled is a bit of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The moderators do not want a thread that appears to slag off the club management. I can understand that, given the sensitivity that does exist regarding such matters. Which is why I’ve combined the two themes under the less controversial thread title.

Make no mistake, however, I am fucking raging at the incompetence of the club management with regard to this issue. What they have done/failed to do is fucking deplorable for a footballing institution of our standing, most especially one that during the latter stages of last season looked very much like it was on the cusp of something truly special, something that - with the correct and responsible management strategy and the huge transfer monies from Luis’s departure to the Spanish Inquisitors - had every chance of at the very least maintaining and very possibly improving upon the levels of performance we witnessed last season.

Had players of the sort of style and calibre our system of play demanded been brought in – and I’m not talking mega stars I simply mean talent that equated with our style and needs – and had such players not succeeded in providing/maintaining the team with the level of performance desired then I can assure anybody still reading this outpouring that you would not have heard so much as the slightest fucking peep from me. [that’s possibly an outright lie by the way  ]

However, that sort of sensible management strategy with an eye on the core objective is not the case. The fact is, despite the core objective screaming out at us loudly and clearly, we fucked up badly. Very badly. That core objective needed to be maintaining or if possibly improving the overall team performance levels. Fleshing out the squad to enable us to meet the additional Champions league demands was clearly also a priority but the overwhelming urgency was to ensure Luis’s departure and a potential injury to Daniel Sturridge did not leave us bare and exposed.

Yet it so manifestly has. And I am so pissed off by it. So there you go. That’s the way I feel. A time served fan of countless years and i can scarcely recall such a huge avoidable cock-up at the very heart of our playing strategy in all that time. Sure there’s been mistakes. Shanks made them. Bob made them. Kenny certainly made them. Not, however, over something so glaringly obvious as this.

And I must add before finishing. I do not see Brendan as the main culprit here. As it is I do not know enough about how the club management all hangs together – and I’m not sure anybody else does either given the veils of secrecy that mask the club management – but I would bet a pound to a pinch of shite that Brendan did not wish to embark upon the season with one pacy striker especially one that he more than anybody would have known could be absent at any time with muscle injuries. Also we must not forget the entire aberration, albeit there from the day the window closed, has only manifested itself since Daniel was injured and with a good wind he may be back before too long to provide that ever so vital ingredient of getting beyond the opposition back four. Perhaps in tandem with Mario as we saw at White Hart Lane.

In the meantime do forgive me if I regard raking over the coals of a home draw against a shite Hull City is like playing the fucking fiddle while yer arsehole's on fire. Until the ostriches amongst us admit to the biggest elephant any room has ever housed then as far as I’m concerned any discussion about specific performances that do not commence with the elephant in the room as the base-line is an entire fucking waste of time and space.

Footy? A Game of opinions. Yeah, right

Great post covers most of the issues with RAWK and the club at the moment.

[Twelfth Man]

Yet, a load of 606ing, Daily Mail reading, half-and-half top wearing, illegal stream watching, pie gargling miseries who have never even been stood outside Anfield wishing they had a ticket, never mind inside to watch a game, feel compelled to post outrage 2 seconds after a game when Liverpool fail to put QPR to the sword, or draw 0-0 at home.

That is a bit of a caricature. The moaners might actually be match going season ticket holders like you. I must be weird or odd, but I genuinely feel, having wee moan after a shit result is part of what football is all about. Don't get me wrong, at the ground, I'm totally behind the team like everyone else. You build yourself up, anticipation, expectation, excitement, nervous energy, I think it is quite natural to have a bit of a rant to dissipate all that after a poor performance, just don't read too much into it. As long as the moaning is constructive, not offensive, makes a point, even if it does bluntly, I see no harm at all. Part of the problem as I see it, is that fans take themselves too seriously. Like the club or even players for that matter really give a fuck what we think, I doubt it. We are not that important.   

[Timbo's Goals]

I would say the same and anyone else would do that too, no one is afraid to but personally I would want to wait on this one for at least December.

 

The mistake is a mistake whether now or a year next Christmas.

We pray Saint Danny returns quickly and hits the ground or skips over it running to minimise the damage inflicted by it and we also give thanks to Shanks that other than Chesea and Southampton every other club has fucked up on the pitch and we can still make the next phase of the Champions league.

It's still a mistake though whatever happens. As educated fans it is our duty to recognize it as such as the huge one it is but one which fortunately we can still wriggle away from if things flop right.

[L666KOP]

Not to harp back in time but neither did for example  John Wark and Ray Kennedy and many more in their first two months and they were also experienced players, but this is a diversion to the thread.

What about Rushie ?

Imagine having the internet the year he signed.
 

[redmark]

In terms of the working of the Transfer Committee, I think that this is illuminating:

Sunday 3rd August 2014

“I can categorically tell you Mario Balotelli will not be at Liverpool,” Rodgers said on the eve of Liverpool’s game against Manchester United in Miami'

[ http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/03/liverpool-not-sign-milan-mario-balotelli-brendan-rodgers 

The fact that we then signed Balotelli made Rodgers look at best stupid or at worst slightly shifty.  Not something a young manager would opt for voluntarily I don't think. So he had his arm twisted.

The fact that Sanchez, then Remy, our prime targets, were denied us for different reasons, shows that we did try to sign players that would fit last years style of play.  No stupidity there then.

What happened next is though - it seems to me that (having seen the roasting Manu's CEO got last year) LFC management feared appearing inactive and attracting a similar backlash from fans.

So, to me, the signing of Balotelli has all the appearance of being a panic buy - with Rodgers being forced to swallow his pride and challenged to turn it into a positive.

In my view, he literally had no choice. 

I've seen no hints from Rodgers that he's unhappy that we bought Balotelli - apart of course from the statement before hand that he wouldn't be buying him, which is certainly odd on the face of it.

But we know that Rodgers has stressed that he does have the 'final say' and is happy with the recruitment policy. In May:

“Obviously, I am involved  heavily in the identification  of the player. The principle idea when I first came in was that like any manager you will have the first call on a player and the last call. That’s the call on  whether he’s good enough to continue to look at and  try to organise a deal and the last call to say yes or no. There is a big part that goes on in between. In modern football you need to trust other people to do the work. That’s something we do here and that’s why we have had the success we’ve had. The finer details of that are left to Ian who does a terrific job and our other guys in that  field who will go through the  contracts. I am aware of where the situation is at right the way through the process. We will never bring in a player here who the manager doesn’t want in. That’s a great credit to the owners and the  other people at the club. We work very closely together – it’s worth stressing that. It’s key that we are very much one club. We are really preparing for next season. I’ve had some very good meetings with our  recruitment team. We are very much together as one.”

Now, he may be 'saying the right things' and there are certainly examples of statements made about players, for example, which don't ring true. But did he really let the committee force a pivotal signing (in profile, if not financial terms) upon him against his better judgement? Did he let FSG pick a high profile player for shirt sales? I don't quite get what people are darkly hinting at.

Much more likely of course, is that we ran out of options following the failure to land either Sanchez or Remy. That's something of an indictment of our scouting, perhaps, but I'm not sure it's much more sinister than that. Another possibility is that Rodgers got a little over confident in his own ability to polish a rough diamond; but perhaps he will, yet.


Overall, I think criticism of the rest of our transfer business over the summer is exagerrated and unfair. Various posters have slammed the club for (again) buying unproven potential; or (contradictorily) buying average, overhyped English players. All skim over the signing of Moreno, and the loan of Manquillo. Lambert was peanuts and something, it seems, of an impulse buy who offers something different and some passion, which may yet prove valuable. Lallana's pre-season injury I think has been a big problem for the team hitting the ground running this season, but he's now showing his value to the squad. Can is showing good potential and the ability to contribute now. Lovren has been a disappointment so far - and if he's only ever going to play LCB, raises questions about the purchase of Sakho - but there are a lot of posters acting wise after the event on that signing. Markovic admittedly looks overwhelmed to date; but again, at the age of 20 in a new league, has been dropped into a side seriously underperforming and lacking any attacking cohesion.

But our signings are been summarised much less favourably than is fair. Of the young 'potential', only Markovic has struggled to show it. Of the established players, Balotelli and Lovren need to improve. I can't help feeling that if we'd bought exactly the same bunch of players, plus a Remy or Sanchez or some other pacy forward capable of filling in for Sturridge, the tone of the debate would be completely different. We missed that final piece in the transfer window, but it's inaccurate to portray the entire summer's business as wasted or misplaced.

[johnbarnesish]

Given we scored 101 goals last season, something we were unlikely to replicate this season no matter who we signed to replace Suarez, and still didn't win the league the idea was not to replicate the same style but to try and bring something different which was more capable of winning the league (without a Suarez type player, i.e. top 3 in the world).

why couldn't we replicate last seasons scoring? Suarez is fantastic - but others are in a similar caliber to him

we didnt win the league due to one result.

why bring in something different? and what we did sign added some depth to areas of the squad but not obviously improve the 1st 11.

[redmark]

why couldn't we replicate last seasons scoring? Suarez is fantastic - but others are in a similar caliber to him

we didnt win the league due to one result.

why bring in something different? and what we did sign added some depth to areas of the squad but not obviously improve the 1st 11.

Do Moreno and Manquillo not improve the first XI? Lovren should have. Lallana is certainly showing signs of contributing to doing so, while Can may do so before the season is out. Markovic might not just yet, but punt on him is being able to do so in the future at a very high level, at average cost.

[sempi]

Re: the transfer policy (or lack there of). We needed to replace Luis, we needed more strength in depth, we still need to trim the wage bill.
I would say we have addressed only one those points; the depth one however, in summer, Rodgers stated the desire to pick players that would "hit the ground running".  But the players brought in  have,( up front) in the main, failed to this otherwise they would not be reduced to bit part players brought on with x amount of minutes to rescue a game. Lambert is at that stage of his career where it probably suits him to do this, but the others should be champing at the bit to prove themselves.

   

[CraigDS]

why couldn't we replicate last seasons scoring? Suarez is fantastic - but others are in a similar caliber to him

we didnt win the league due to one result.

why bring in something different? and what we did sign added some depth to areas of the squad but not obviously improve the 1st 11.

The most goals scored in a season, in the PL, is 103. So it's not exactly a common occurrence that a team scores 100+, and it's certainly less likely when you lose probably the best striker on the planet currently.

Who is similar in caliber? Sturridge scores a lot but we already have him. Aguero is, but he is at City. Who is similar in caliber and actually available?

[Mutton Geoff]

The mistake is a mistake whether now or a year next Christmas.

We pray Saint Danny returns quickly and hits the ground or skips over it running to minimise the damage inflicted by it and we also give thanks to Shanks that other than Chesea and Southampton every other club has fucked up on the pitch and we can still make the next phase of the Champions league.

It's still a mistake though whatever happens. As educated fans it is our duty to recognize it as such as the huge one it is but one which fortunately we can still wriggle away from if things flop right.

This were we differ you say these players are a mistake and i value your opinion Timbo but like my own it is just an opinion, lets say all of a sudden Mario is scoring for fun and Lambert is a good squad member which is why he was bought anyway. Then would they still be a mistake in the end or would your opinion in time be seen to be flawed or hasty?

To put it another way you think they are a mistake, I think they might be a mistake,  but others might end up saying they were brilliant signings come the end of the season.

[Anywhichwayicant]

The most goals scored in a season, in the PL, is 103. So it's not exactly a common occurrence that a team scores 100+, and it's certainly less likely when you lose probably the best striker on the planet currently.

Who is similar in caliber? Sturridge scores a lot but we already have him. Aguero is, but he is at City. Who is similar in caliber and actually available?

This is also our problem, unless a team is flogging a player, we have this mindset that we can't sign anyone.

Make them available.

[redmark]

Re: the transfer policy (or lack there of). We needed to replace Luis, we needed more strength in depth, we still need to trim the wage bill.
I would say we have addressed only one those points; the depth one however, in summer, Rodgers stated the desire to pick players that would "hit the ground running".  But the players brought in  have, in the main, failed to this otherwise they would not be reduced to bit part players brought on with x amount of minutes to rescue a game. Lambert is at that stage of his career where it probably suits him to do this, but the others should be champing at the bit to prove themselves.

We brought in nine players. Four or five of those have been regularly selected and already seem to be 'first choice', if not all performing at their best yet.

[robgomm]

I enjoy criticism and discussion, I don't enjoy the precipice of outright negativity too many people here stand at. Last season we'd have 30 page threads about a dodgy result and 2/3rds the amount when we smash Everton or Arsenal. Even when we finished second there were people slating us for not winning the league, as if we were favourites at the start of the season.

Timbo, you post reasonably and make valid points. I think the striker situation was a familiar error from us in a transfer window and it's cost us. But we can say that and discuss it or we can say everyone is shit and the manager has been found out and all the other stuff that gets vented in the post match bitterness thread.

Criticism needs perspective, there's not enough of it at times and people jump to just complaining far too quickly, bringing 'discussion' to the level of a Talkshite phone in. Needs to stop.

[Latenight Surfer]

I wouldn't.

Lambert and Balotelli are both of an age where you can fairly accurately judge what type of player they are. And neither have shown to be anything like the players we need to replace.

Let's leave Lambert out of the equation, he is really not meant to be a part of this discussion at all he was bought by us before the Suarez incident so he can only do so much.

Now, Balotelli... the player in question is 24 and yes we by now can say what he is capable of and what he isn't and as far as talent goes Balotelli is a brilliant player, without question.

Which gives rise to two points:

1. System

Is the system in which Balotelli is playing has been the reason for him to not be able to play at the best of his abilities? To which my answer is a "semi-yes". The systems in which Balotelli has so far played throughout his career have more-or-less been the systems in which he can play but he hasn't been able perform on a consistent basis, which brings us to the next aspect.

2.Mood

Now much is made of what Balotelli does in his free-time but that's none of my business and I for one will not judge him on that basis. But it is nonetheless an issue which he too knows he has to deal with to get the best out of him. Which by all means Rodgers knows it better than anyone else. More than the system the focus will be on keeping Balotelli in good spirits throughout the season (if he is able to make it).

Conclusion

Here what Balotelli is facing is a mix of both the system and there by the mood (I would say) but it's only 9 games and we all know what was made out of the deal when it first came into light... IT IS A GAMBLE.

Rodgers has taken a gamble here as he was available for 16 million pounds so what I would say is that gambles involve patience and that is what I stand by.

[DonkeyWan]

We didn't buy like-for-like style [that's style not necessarily quality] forward replacements for the departing Suarez and the injury-prone sturridge.

Instead we bought two players who can not and never will be able to replicate the roles played by luis and daniel.

 

In response to that Timbo

a] Who could Liverpool get to replace Suarez? 30+ goals, 17 assists, he was effectively like two players. He went for £75 million, cheap at the price and largely because he is a cannibalistic loon. You are talking Messi, Ronaldo territory here, with all the difficlty of attracting that type of player and keeping them for more than two seasons
b] Liverpool tried to get Sanchez and Remy; one said he preferred London, the other failed a medical. balotelli was third choice and last minute.
c] The club needed a bigger squad to compete in Europe. Qpr, as dreadful a performance as it was, saw squad rotation and players rested for Madrid. Buying one or two players just wasn't enough. So the club went for breadth, not depth.
d] Suarez was here for 3 1/2 seasons. Liverpool were indifferent for 2 1/2 of those. Success last year was not just down to Suarez.
e] Replacing him with like for like and not buying breadth would have had a short term impact yes, but over the course of the season Liverpool would have struggled, better to struggle now, but have a stronger squad by the end of the season

[CraigDS]

This is also our problem, unless a team is flogging a player, we have this mindset that we can't sign anyone.

Make them available.

I'm not sure that's true, we've signed plenty of players when the club didn't want to sell them (Lallana and Lovren are two recent one's for example).

However it's not always possible to just make them available. I'm sure we tried for Cavani, for example, but we have finite resources and the cost to make someone at a top/rich/not needing to sell club is sometimes way beyond our reach, even with a good chunk of change from Barca.

[johnbarnesish]

Do Moreno and Manquillo not improve the first XI? Lovren should have. Lallana is certainly showing signs of contributing to doing so, while Can may do so before the season is out. Markovic might not just yet, but punt on him is being able to do so in the future at a very high level, at average cost.

Moreno has looked half decent, but cant say he has been better than Flanno, Not too convinced by Manquillo. Lovren was not better than what we had and has shown that so far too. Lallana is good for the squad, but no better than Courinho or Sterling. Can is not better than what we have currently.

im not saying that they dont add to the squad.  Markovic is in no way an average cost purchase.

[johnbarnesish]

The most goals scored in a season, in the PL, is 103. So it's not exactly a common occurrence that a team scores 100+, and it's certainly less likely when you lose probably the best striker on the planet currently.

Who is similar in caliber? Sturridge scores a lot but we already have him. Aguero is, but he is at City. Who is similar in caliber and actually available?

when you say who is available are you referring to some form of magical list of players that is passed around? as im not aware of one - however i am aware than money talks and players who are at clubs become lured away to other clubs fairly easily.

Suarez wasn't available to be sold until he was sold.

[sempi]

Pack it in mate. It's bad for your health.

I will as soon as I get rid of this pack of 20 players!;D

[Hij]

It's what's kept us back over the past two decades.

Convincing ourselves things will work out, and then feeling sorry for ourselves when top players leave. I mean, in the summer you were considered a loon to be unhappy with our transfer window. Losing Suarez, and buying a dozen average to good players was classed as our greatest ever window. That sort of thinking is poisonous. "But, but, but we'll be great in five years".

We just make silly mistake after silly mistake, and far too many in the fan base are too busy patting the club on the back, even when we fuck up, all in the name of 'The Liverpool Way'. This isn't the 70s or 80s any more, The Liverpool Way no longer exists, except for in the minds of those living in the past. Football has changed. Liverpool Football Club has changed.

It's time we got with the times.

Opinions on a message board/criticism of the club being taboo has not been holding Liverpool back, that's bollocks mate.

In fact there is so much wrong and disrespectful in what you've just said (and you are exaggerating peoples view points quite vastly as well, eg that everything will be going swimmingly in five years).

In all seriousness, what are you suggesting then? A higher level of accountability from the fans? That we as a fan base have a go at the team and the manager because they are getting it wrong? How do we enact this? Do we sign a petition saying "The current performances are unacceptable"?

What you are putting fowards seems to be that there isn't enough accountability on here and that people are far too positive or optimistic in their way of thinking, but all you seem to be offering as an alternative is that we bin off 'The Liverpool Way' and just go on and on castigating our own players and manager?

No thanks.

Surely it's been demonstrated that there is no problem with the fans calling a spade a spade, so long as it is done in a respectful way- that's not that difficult to abide by to be honest.

[CraigDS]

when you say who is available are you referring to some form of magical list of players that is passed around? as im not aware of one - however i am aware than money talks and players who are at clubs become lured away to other clubs fairly easily.

Suarez wasn't available to be sold until he was sold.

You don't think, given we had just received £75m for Suarez, that every agent of every available striker made approaches to the club?

Money does talk, however do we have enough to lure away an Aguero? Or Benzema? Or Cavani? Not only are these at clubs who don't need the money, but they are at clubs who can pay a lot more than we can.

[Timbo's Goals]

Given we scored 101 goals last season, something we were unlikely to replicate this season no matter who we signed to replace Suarez, and still didn't win the league the idea was not to replicate the same style but to try and bring something different which was more capable of winning the league (without a Suarez type player, i.e. top 3 in the world).

Craig, I hate sounding patronising but I think you need to re-think your understanding as to what the objective needed to be.

When Rodgers said - quite rightly - there was no way to replace Suarez like-for-like, he meant the unique qualities that Suarez brought to the table. He didn't mean departing from the sort of pacy, mobile attacking style/outlets that had served him so amazingly well.

Sanchez and Remy were two such players not at the same level as Luis but ideally suited to going a decent way towards replicating the pacy, mobile attacking style.

The ones we ended up with - no disrespect to them - don't replicate such a style. The may come in useful in other circumstances but in trying to replicate the pacy attacking they simply aren't the right sort of player.

The opening 9 matches of the season and the Champions League opening fixtures have clearly shown that similar pacy mobile attacking outlets exist beyond the ones we tried to bring in and not necessarily costing the earth. They may not be Luis Suarez's but I'm sure they would have done the sort of job that the two players we brought in have struggled to manage.   

[Hij]

The Balotelli not fitting the style thing is interesting and a fair point. I think it should also be considered of what the potential uproar had been if we had gone into the season without even Balotelli in the squad and saved the money for January/next summer to try and get a player the likes of Remy/Sanchez who would have fitted better. There would have been absolute outrage.

I wonder how many of those who would have been outraged in that scenario are now also outraged at us struggling to fit Balotelli into the team. They can't win Rodgers/FSG at times.

[L666KOP]

Let's leave Lambert out of the equation,

Nothing wrong with a gamble mate. In context.

However, we sold the house and have joined a high stakes poker game and gone all in on a pair of 6's.

Markovic, Manquillo, Moreno to a certain amount, and Origi are all gambles.

That's a lot of money on Gambles, without securing a player to 'replacing' the one person that was crucial to last season.

[CraigDS]

Craig, I hate sounding patronising but I think you need to re-think your understanding as to what the objective needed to be.

You do? 

When Rodgers said - quite rightly - there was no way to replace Suarez like-for-like, he meant the unique qualities that Suarez brought to the table. He didn't mean departing from the sort of pacy, mobile attacking style/outlets that had served him so amazingly well.

Sanchez and Remy were two such players not at the same level as Luis but ideally suited to going a decent way towards replicating the pacy, mobile attacking style.

The ones we ended up with - no disrespect to them - don't replicate such a style. The may come in useful in other circumstances but in trying to replicate the pacy attacking they simply aren't the right sort of player.

The opening 9 matches of the season and the Champions League opening fixtures have clearly shown that similar pacy mobile attacking outlets exist beyond the ones we tried to bring in and not necessarily costing the earth. They may not be Luis Suarez's but I'm sure they would have done the sort of job that the two players we brought in have struggled to manage.   

The thing is, you can only get so far down that list entitled 'Players who aren't as good as Suarez, but offer the same style', being turned down for one reason or another, before the quality of that player makes the deal less appealing to Rodgers.

Also, I think Rodgers does see Balotelli as part of this fast paced style, just not in the same mold as Suarez. The Spurs game showed what he can do as part of a partnership, the same goes for both Suarez and Sturridge last season who looked better together rather than not, and he has been unlucky that his main strike partner has since got injured on International duty.

[Ashburton]

It is in many cases too early to call, mind you.  Lallana hasn't suddenly gone from Southampton captain and tricky forward to shitty winger, Lovren hasn't gone from centrepin to the Saints defence, to a player who can't get his positioning right.  There are lots of other sides who are integrating players into the team, and whilst the gaps are present in the LFC squad, those gaps existed to a greater extent last year and yet Rodgers and the side managed to raise their game.

Perhaps it's as simple as after coming so close to winning the league, it is really hard too find that motivation with 5-6 new faces in the XI to keep out and fight and press every minute, from the first game of the season.  It's relatively easy to raise your game for the big games, CL quarters, etc... but for the week-in-week-out matches... many teams still have players looking very flat at the moment.

[Hij]

The other thing is that not for a long time have we had such a youthful team as the one we have now. Of course I don't want to say that we will be dominating everything in five years as there is nothing to prove that, but I don't think it's wrong to also say that there is some potential in this side, and that 12/13 games in has been disappointing, we could see how we are doing a tad later on as we've not had the best of luck with injuries so far meaning that some of the newer players have been dumped in right away. It's a new experience for our manager with all the games in so many days as well. I'm disappointed, but I lean more towards DonkeyWan's way of thinking for now. Way too early.

[Anywhichwayicant]

Opinions on a message board/criticism of the club being taboo has not been holding Liverpool back, that's bollocks mate.

In fact there is so much wrong and disrespectful in what you've just said (and you are exaggerating peoples view points quite vastly as well, eg that everything will be going swimmingly in five years).

In all seriousness, what are you suggesting then? A higher level of accountability from the fans? That we as a fan base have a go at the team and the manager because they are getting it wrong? How do we enact this? Do we sign a petition saying "The current performances are unacceptable"?

What you are putting fowards seems to be that there isn't enough accountability on here and that people are far too positive or optimistic in their way of thinking, but all you seem to be offering as an alternative is that we bin off 'The Liverpool Way' and just go on and on castigating our own players and manager?

No thanks.

Everyone talks about The Liverpool Way, and how things were done in the 70s and 80s. This is 2014, and as much as we may hate it, football has changed phenomenally since the heyday of The Liverpool Way. Obviously its important to maintain and respect club traditions, but we're too nice as a club.

We don't have that ruthlessness about us any more, a ruthlessness that was very much in us in the 70s and 80s. Top players were moved on, and we progressed. Nowadays if you mention moving Gerrard on, even as a possibility, everyone takes great offence and starts throwing their toys out of the pram.

Shanks moved players on. Paisley moved players on. Dalglish moved players on.

People's present day definition of The Liverpool Way is a million miles away from what The Liverpool Way actually is.

So, no, I'm not advocating binning The Liverpool Way. I'm wanting it to return.

[Chakan]

The Balotelli not fitting the style thing is interesting and a fair point. I think it should also be considered of what the potential uproar had been if we had gone into the season without even Balotelli in the squad and saved the money for January/next summer to try and get a player the likes of Remy/Sanchez who would have fitted better. There would have been absolute outrage.

I wonder how many of those who would have been outraged in that scenario are now also outraged at us struggling to fit Balotelli into the team. They can't win Rodgers/FSG at times.

My problem is we haven't been playing the system we did last year. We've been going with the lone striker constantly. We're not suited to it, Balotelli isn't suited to it, and we don't play that way. But for some reason it's what we've gone with. If we had played Borini more or Lambert more in conjunction with Balotelli who knows what would have happened. As seen when they both were on the pitch over the weekend, we looked a much better team, so while it's all fine and good to say Balotelli doesn't fit our system , which system is that, the 2 man upfront system or the 1 lone striker system? I think he fits the 2 man system quite well.

[4pool]

Fair enough - though i think DW and Mel know perfectly well what the main thrust of my argument is. I used to debate with mel 14 years ago re Anfield Forever so I know exactly how his approach works with debates he doesn't want to lose.

Hi mel 

Also I have attemptted to explain why the post was split the way it was.

But just to be perfectly clear 5thB in case anybody does miscontrue the highlighted bit inyour post I am in no way criticising Lambert and balotelli.

I am criticising the club management for somehow thinking that they represented in any way shape of form the right style of players to replicate the departing Suarez and Sturridge if injured

Hi Timbo...

And respect your elders..


Here you go bringing me into this. 

I just gave my opinion of what the transfer committee may have been thinking knowing Suarez was leaving. That was the IMHO..bit.

I could elaborate a bit further, as some others have done, pointing out there never was a like for like replacement of Luis. In fact, he probably won't replicate his numbers with us for Barca this season ( discounted for number of matches missed). So will they have over paid?

I remember back when Chelsea won the League and came close in the CL. Roman desperately wanted to win the CL. So he goes out and buys the #1 striker in Europe, Shevchenko. The media, and Rawk forums, were giving Chelsea the League, FA Cup, Champions League and solving rubiks cube in 3 seconds all in one. It was going to be a stroll to sweeping the lot. Never worked out that way.

Suarez leaving meant that we had to reevaluate how we were going to play. And i'd guess the strategy was to feature Sturridge. Even knowing Daniel might miss a few. ( They couldn't have predicted this many although naysayers might have). Which meant what, and more importantly who, would bring out the best in Daniel?  That to me was the transfer strategy of the summer. Again, IMHO..


btw.. I never intend to win any "discussion". One never will. Rarely do people change their minds. I will however, reinforce my opinions from time to time when asked or challenged. As I suspect anyone would.


btw #2..I should be over for Arsenal Away and Newcastle home..you around?

[Hij]

It is in many cases too early to call, mind you.  Lallana hasn't suddenly gone from Southampton captain and tricky forward to shitty winger, Lovren hasn't gone from centrepin to the Saints defence, to a player who can't get his positioning right.  There are lots of other sides who are integrating players into the team, and whilst the gaps are present in the LFC squad, those gaps existed to a greater extent last year and yet Rodgers and the side managed to raise their game.

Perhaps it's as simple as after coming so close to winning the league, it is really hard too find that motivation with 5-6 new faces in the XI to keep out and fight and press every minute, from the first game of the season.  It's relatively easy to raise your game for the big games, CL quarters, etc... but for the week-in-week-out matches... many teams still have players looking very flat at the moment.

There are quite a few similarities with Rafael Benitez and Brendan Rodgers reigns in that in one of their first two seasons they probably over achieved with the Champions League win, and Premier League title challenge that was certainly not expected and came in above expectation. Therefore expecation was ramped up and therefore immediate turn arounds were expected.

Had we finished 3rd or 4th last season (and we had finished lower before with Sturridge/Suarez in the team, albeit half a season) then perhaps now we'd have a little more time and patience for the manager turning it around. It's been a shite start, but there are teams with similar squads not exactly firing on all cylinders either, yourselves included.

[Hij]

My problem is we haven't been playing the system we did last year. We've been going with the lone striker constantly. We're not suited to it, Balotelli isn't suited to it, and we don't play that way. But for some reason it's what we've gone with. If we had played Borini more or Lambert more in conjunction with Balotelli who knows what would have happened. As seen when they both were on the pitch over the weekend, we looked a much better team, so while it's all fine and good to say Balotelli doesn't fit our system , which system is that, the 2 man upfront system or the 1 lone striker system? I think he fits the 2 man system quite well.

Ah fair point. I was thinking more along the lines of both Suarez/Sturridge being more mobile than Balotelli in terms of pressing rather that on particular formations. Looking at how Sanchez plays, he'd have been absolutely ideal, what a shame we couldn't land him.

[Hij]

Everyone talks about The Liverpool Way, and how things were done in the 70s and 80s. This is 2014, and as much as we may hate it, football has changed phenomenally since the heyday of The Liverpool Way. Obviously its important to maintain and respect club traditions, but we're too nice as a club.

Perhaps some merit in that as a separate issue regarding the club, but I'm not so sure the fans on an internet forum (which is mainly what this thread is about in terms of criticism) have that much impact in the club being too nice. I mean you can argue against clapping goalkeepers or whatever, but in terms of tangible percentage increase in the chances of winning, I doubt it's much more really. Other than that sort of thing, in what other ways are we too nice?

We don't have that ruthlessness about us any more, a ruthlessness that was very much in us in the 70s and 80s. Top players were moved on, and we progressed. Nowadays if you mention moving Gerrard on, even as a possibility, everyone takes great offence and starts throwing their toys out of the pram.

Understood. I don't really have an opinion either way on that other than knowing that eventually the decision will have to be taken. Offset against the fact we have a rather youthful squad, and that Gerrard still does have some solid games and is an experienced and respected member of the squad, I'm not so sure it's quite the time to move him on but he could be rested more in my opinion yes.

Shanks moved players on. Paisley moved players on. Dalglish moved players on.

We've had a rather large clear out and buy in over the last few years. While the defence may not be perfect, I can't quite remember having such a youthful squad that could progress together. I realise that if we go onto sell Sterling to Real Madrid or something then it all sounds very Arsenal of a few years ago, but we haven't yet - and that's  one positive to take at the moment is the likes of Markovic apparently have a very high ceiling, even if in the current day it's not quite clicking for them. He could become a player that we will be bitching about not buying down the line (although obviously not for certain).

People's present day definition of The Liverpool Way is a million miles away from what The Liverpool Way actually is.

So, no, I'm not advocating binning The Liverpool Way. I'm wanting it to return.

In terms of moving players (in particular Gerrard) on? In what other ways do you want the Liverpool Way to return?

[Chakan]

Ah fair point. I was thinking more along the lines of both Suarez/Sturridge being more mobile than Balotelli in terms of pressing rather that on particular formations. Looking at how Sanchez plays, he'd have been absolutely ideal, what a shame we couldn't land him.

Sanchez would have been ideal. My problem with that deal was that apparently we offered them the same as Arsenal and he chose Arsenal. Why not offer him more? Why not take an extra 5-8m and throw it on top and make sure we get our guy.

[Hij]

Sanchez would have been ideal. My problem with that deal was that apparently we offered them the same as Arsenal and he chose Arsenal. Why not offer him more? Why not take an extra 5-8m and throw it on top and make sure we get our guy.

Of all the signings, I think that was one that we could and should have pushed the boat out for, even allowing for the fact we needed to bolster the squad elsewhere yes.

[Mutton Geoff]

Sanchez would have been ideal. My problem with that deal was that apparently we offered them the same as Arsenal and he chose Arsenal. Why not offer him more? Why not take an extra 5-8m and throw it on top and make sure we get our guy.

from what i heard Arsenal had been talking to him for months before we did, might have some bearing on it, as well as wanting to shop in Harrods.

[Chakan]

from what i heard Arsenal had been talking to him for months before we did, might have some bearing on it, as well as wanting to shop in Harrods.

I understand that, but we want to make ourselves front runners in the deal throw some money on top to sweeten the pot. Don't just do what the other guys did.

[CraigDS]

Sanchez would have been ideal. My problem with that deal was that apparently we offered them the same as Arsenal and he chose Arsenal. Why not offer him more? Why not take an extra 5-8m and throw it on top and make sure we get our guy.

According to who?