Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Latenight Surfer]

I think we should create a thread named "Rage Box", the sole purpose of which is to provide a channel for the angry posters who do not have it in them (for the time being) to be constructive about something be it criticism or moaning in general etc. This would help them relax a bit.


I know I know, you can all thank me later. 

[The 5th Benitle]

I'll also say that this thread has prompted some very good replies, and in itself the OP is excellent when it comes to concerns about transfer policy. That actually sums up what we're trying to achieve, discussion with detail, analysis, not blind criticism with nothing to back it up.


We wouldn't outlaw discussions on those concerns. We never have. We might ask certain users not to bang on about it in every single thread - mentioning no names - but that's all.


Honestly, TG - I share your concerns. I just wish that people will understand that as Jim said earlier, it's not what people say, it's how they say it. Nobody is outlawing anything or making anything 'taboo' in the slightest.

[The 5th Benitle]

I think we should create a thread named "Rage Box", the sole purpose of which is to provide a channel for the angry posters who do not have it in them (for the time being) to be constructive about something be it criticism or moaning in general etc. This would help them relax a bit.


I know I know, you can all thank me later. 

I'd prefer to call it 'fish in a barrel'

[NealFrom25Yards]

From what I've witnessed over countless decades of matchgoing, pub going etc football supporters whether Liverpool, Everton or Marine have always ranked amongst the most critical breed of human kind I've ever come across.

Traveling down on the coaches for away games would certainly be eye opening for some people who've taken to criticising 'online fans' for being negative. It's another world.

A lot of it is substance induced, but still, 70% of the 'discussion' would net lifetime bans on here.

And that's last year too, when we were fucking brilliant.

[L666KOP]

I'll also say that this thread has prompted some very good replies, and in itself the OP is excellent when it comes to concerns about transfer policy. That actually sums up what we're trying to achieve, discussion with detail, analysis, not blind criticism with nothing to back it up.


We wouldn't outlaw discussions on those concerns. We never have. We might ask certain users not to bang on about it in every single thread - mentioning no names - but that's all.


Honestly, TG - I share your concerns. I just wish that people will understand that as Jim said earlier, it's not what people say, it's how they say it. Nobody is outlawing anything or making anything 'taboo' in the slightest.

See James, this bit bothers me. We'll no doubt have this platform removed because somebody will start banging on about who we should buy, and then how much we should pay, wages, moneyball blah blah blah.

And often the mods may well miss as a thread evolves due to you all having proper jobs, but in the couple of hours it's grown 3 pages and degenerated into people arguing about things we know are off limits.

It's incredibly frustrating for those that want a proper conversation.

[The 5th Benitle]

See James, this bit bothers me. We'll no doubt have this platform removed because somebody will start banging on about who we should buy, and then how much we should pay, wages, moneyball blah blah blah.

Well, time permitting, what we'd prefer to do is prune it by deleting those posts. Or even better, people not post them

[Twelfth Man]

I think we should create a thread named "Rage Box", the sole purpose of which is to provide a channel for the angry posters who do not have it in them (for the time being) to be constructive about something be it criticism or moaning in general etc. This would help them relax a bit.


I know I know, you can all thank me later. 

Why not combine the two, angry constructivism? like Jaffod and itsgunnabebarnes do with economy, wit and humour.

[scumbagcollege]

A phrase of Rafa's springs to mind:   " I asked for a sofa and they got me a  lamp."
Lambert and Butler could fall into that category for Rodgers, though for the life of me I can't understand why signed Mario after publicly stating he would never sign him. Timbo, I think mods aren't so much against criticism as  circular and repetitive arguments. This and name calling.
Many a good thread has been derailed by flying so off the point that it could land on Mars.
In the old days, we only needed to bring one or two players to freshen up the squad. ( I hate that term group!) The committee should be shot for not identifying the flaws in the team and replacing Suarez with a player approaching his genius, even if it meant spending nearly all his fee.
Ask yourself did we really need Lallana at 25 million? when we really needed a holding midfielder?

I don't know what you are smoking over there mate.......

[Timbo's Goals]

Traveling down on the coaches for away games would certainly be eye opening for some people who've taken to criticising 'online fans' for being negative. It's another world.

A lot of it is substance induced, but still, 70% of the 'discussion' would net lifetime bans on here.

And that's last year too, when we were fucking brilliant.

Ha ha

 

That's kind of what I began by saying. There's a fella used to stand on the Kop by us who used to slag off Roger Hunt no matter what he did - didn't matter whether he'd missed a sitter or netted a hat trick. Used to do my head in but he was one rough looking twat so I used to smile and pretend to agree with him { joke - I didn't - I used to turn the other way call him a c*nt under my breath] Anyroad if anybody did happen to challenge him as to why -  which didn't happen often - he'd just tell them to 'Fuck Off'

Not sure about the moral of this story. But I guess he'd be prime candidate for a lifetime ban. If anybody had the balls to do it like.

 

[Latenight Surfer]

I'd prefer to call it 'fish in a barrel'

That's exactly what I was talking about. 

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

I don't know what you are smoking over there mate.......

[sempi]

I don't know what you are smoking over there mate.......

This is the a perfect example  of why threads get locked, this is not anything approaching constructive criticism.
I offer a line on a player and this is the best you can manage???

[KenyanKopite]

I'd prefer to call it 'fish in a barrel'

I'd probably refer to it as the 5th circle of hell.

But really I think this is a great idea. People get a place to vent, be morose and weep into their whiskey, RAWK hopefully reverts back to the fun place I spent months lurking about  in before I could join.

[Latenight Surfer]

This is the a perfect example  of why threads get locked, this is not anything approaching constructive criticism.
I offer a line on a player and this is the best you can manage???

No mate not even close.

[sempi]

No mate not even close.

Let's hear his best shot then.

[Twelfth Man]

Ha ha

 

That's kind of what I began by saying. There's a fella used to stand on the Kop by us who used to slag off Roger Hunt no matter what he did - didn't matter whether he'd missed a sitter or netted a hat trick. Used to do my head in but he was one rough looking twat so I used to smile and pretend to agree with him { joke - I didn't - I used to turn the other way call him a c*nt under my breath] Anyroad if anybody did happen to challenge him as to why -  which didn't happen often - he'd just tell them to 'Fuck Off'

Not sure about the moral of this story. But I guess he'd be prime candidate for a lifetime ban. If anybody had the balls to do it like.

 

Characters, I use to see them in the terraces in the 80's, swearing of the most colourful sort. A real eye-opener at first, but I soon loved it. All gone a bit too sanitised now. Not a bad thing all together, in that I would not feel comfortable taking my Liverpool mad nephew to a game in the 80's. Now I would have no qualms.

[SP]

For those that want to discuss Henderson, it does not even have to be in the Midfield Section. If you have something about Henderson you wish to discuss, write an OP and start a topic. We will not allow a bucket topic for all things Henderson, as it attracts the worst excesses of RAWK, but if you want to have a discussion about some aspect of his play, we would positively encourage it. We'd even keep it on topic to the best of our abilities. We are not trying to stop people discussing players. We are trying to allow posters to discuss players without the usual suspects making it so bloody painful to read.

[Ashburton]

It's curious because the etymology of "criticism" has originated in passing an opinion in giving a viewpoint instead of it being seen as typically negative, as is the modern use.

critic (n.)
1580s, "one who passes judgment," from Middle French critique (14c.), from Latin criticus "a judge, literary critic," from Greek kritikos "able to make judgments," from krinein "to separate, decide" (see crisis). Meaning "one who judges merits of books, plays, etc." is from c.1600. The English word always had overtones of "censurer, faultfinder."

To understand how the artist felt, however, is not criticism; criticism is an investigation of what the work is good for. ... Criticism ... is a serious and public function; it shows the race assimilating the individual, dividing the immortal from the mortal part of a soul. [George Santayana, "The Life of Reason," 1906]

As a 'non LFC' fan using these boards due to the general quality of discussion and the fanbase, it does feel at times like if you arn't drinking the kool-aid then your opinion will simply be discounted (by a small vocal minority, it has to be said).  Perhaps it is due to the recent Rodgers renaissance and the 'near victory' in the league, but it seems that the upwards trajectory is assumed as a constant - whereas in reality you will get plenty of bumps and turns along the way, which are just as worthy of discussion as the brilliant wins and sublime bits of skill.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

In terms of the working of the Transfer Committee, I think that this is illuminating:

Sunday 3rd August 2014

“I can categorically tell you Mario Balotelli will not be at Liverpool,” Rodgers said on the eve of Liverpool’s game against Manchester United in Miami'

[ http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/03/liverpool-not-sign-milan-mario-balotelli-brendan-rodgers 

The fact that we then signed Balotelli made Rodgers look at best stupid or at worst slightly shifty.  Not something a young manager would opt for voluntarily I don't think. So he had his arm twisted.

The fact that Sanchez, then Remy, our prime targets, were denied us for different reasons, shows that we did try to sign players that would fit last years style of play.  No stupidity there then.

What happened next is though - it seems to me that (having seen the roasting Manu's CEO got last year) LFC management feared appearing inactive and attracting a similar backlash from fans.

So, to me, the signing of Balotelli has all the appearance of being a panic buy - with Rodgers being forced to swallow his pride and challenged to turn it into a positive.

In my view, he literally had no choice. 

[CraigDS]

In terms of the working of the Transfer Committee, I think that this is illuminating:

Sunday 3rd August 2014

“I can categorically tell you Mario Balotelli will not be at Liverpool,” Rodgers said on the eve of Liverpool’s game against Manchester United in Miami'

[ http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/03/liverpool-not-sign-milan-mario-balotelli-brendan-rodgers 

The fact that we then signed Balotelli made Rodgers look at best stupid or at worst slightly shifty. 

Or that at that point in time he wasn't on the agenda for a whole number of reasons (on both our side and/or Milan's side) - however things changed after this and the signing was made.

There is no reason what so ever to try and read anything more into it.

[wemmick]

Timbo,

Nothing wrong with carefully considered criticism. My problem is with posters who criticize without pondering the problem and thereafter call for extreme action without making sound arguments about our football. I've read "not good enough," without even so much as a hint of what is "good enough," more than I can reasonably stand after losses or draws. In my year on RAWK, I've learned so much more about the game than thought I would, but the crazy-intense emotional reaction to negative results gets in the way of learning from more knowledgeable people than I am. It's so easy to criticize the players and manager, but it's fucking hard to say exactly how they could realistically do things differently. Nothing in football is simple. Clubs are very complex organizations, and the game itself is only simple when things are going well, like last season. I don't think criticism of the club should be taboo in here, but a number of posters could do with making careful arguments about what is potentially going wrong and what is the better alternative.

[Timbo's Goals]

I should elaborate a bit on why I posted this thread but first I'd just like to say there's been some great responses and that surely is what these places are all about.

The point about the taboo.

I was encouraged to put up the post about the transfer cock-up by several people who'd seen my spate of posts on the subject in the Real Madrid 0-3 Round Table and Hull City post match threads and had asked me to put up a thread dedicated to that subject.

I looked down the board and saw two similar threads - one from Walshy's Mallet and another i can't recall which had been locked - somewhat disdainfully I d say - by a few of the mods.

Being already completely stressed out to fuck by the complete cock up of our core [that's CORE as in overwhelmingly more important than life itself main priority] replacement of Luis suarez/injury prone Daniel Sturridge I certainly didn't want one of the mods [nothing personal guys/gals] closing the fuckin thing down without any cathartic unleashing.

So I thought of a slightly left of field approach which combined the two aspects and which would allow me to oblige the lads who'd approached me to put up a piece and thus tackle my major frustration of the farcical core transfer business whilst also bringing out some debate about the reasons why some threads are closed such as Walshy's.

Incidentally JC - just regarding your specific point about the press I certainly didn't mean RAWK is anything other than independent just that the possibility of the media picking up on criticism of the club has been mentioned to me as a reason for not posting such criticism. I'd got it in my head it was one or more of the mods. I apologise if it wasn't - and on that note i, too, would agree with the general concensus that all in all the mods doa fine job. 

[Anywhichwayicant]

It's what's kept us back over the past two decades.

Convincing ourselves things will work out, and then feeling sorry for ourselves when top players leave. I mean, in the summer you were considered a loon to be unhappy with our transfer window. Losing Suarez, and buying a dozen average to good players was classed as our greatest ever window. That sort of thinking is poisonous. "But, but, but we'll be great in five years".

We just make silly mistake after silly mistake, and far too many in the fan base are too busy patting the club on the back, even when we fuck up, all in the name of 'The Liverpool Way'. This isn't the 70s or 80s any more, The Liverpool Way no longer exists, except for in the minds of those living in the past. Football has changed. Liverpool Football Club has changed.

It's time we got with the times.

[DonkeyWan]

Part of my problem with much of the criticism levelled at the club isn't that it's not warranted (I don't think it is) but it reflects a rather unlikable trend apparent in the modern game, namely a lack of patience and tendency to the histrionic.

9 games into the season, 3 points off 2nd, already I am seeing posters calling for Rodgers head if things don't improve... what the actual fuck???

9 games into the season, 3 points off 2nd and players with a handful of appearances are  being written off... what the actual fuck???

A home draw in a game that the team dominated and had a handful of good chances to win and this constitutes a crisis in some peoples eyes... what the actual fuck???

Dean Saunders criticized Balotelli on the radio for... coming onto the pitch last after halftime "the manager won't like that..." he said... what the actual fuck???

The media have already decided Liverpool are in crisis... "Oooh, what will Brendan do with his rubbish defenders (that have played a few minutes together at most) the troublemaker Balotelli (eh?) the underwhelming Lallana (what 4, 5 starts?)... they have wasted the Suarez money"... what the actual fuck???

Posters complaining after the best team in the world with the best player in the world took a naive, young side with little European experience to task... what the actual fuck???

And after every game in which Liverpool throw in a less stellar performance I read lines like "should be challenging for the top", "anything less than 4th is a failure", "Brendan has to sort it out, not good enough", "why didn't we buy X, Y, Z, they were available?", "Sell X,Y,Z at Christmas, not a Liverpool player"... what the actual fuck???

Fuck me, short memories some people. Since 2009 Liverpool have been a mid-table side. The club was in danger of irrelevancy, the new, new Spurs... instead we have new owners making the club wealthier, redeveloping the squad, a young, exciting, attacking manager (though he is a bit Brentish, yes), loads of quality players in the youths and reserves, loads of quality players in the first team, back competing on a  range of fronts... and struggling in the short term because they have yet to gel, not unexpected and something a number of people had suggested would happen during the summer (myself included). Transition I called it.

Yet, a load of 606ing, Daily Mail reading, half-and-half top wearing, illegal stream watching, pie gargling miseries who have never even been stood outside Anfield wishing they had a ticket, never mind inside to watch a game, feel compelled to post outrage 2 seconds after a game when Liverpool fail to put QPR to the sword, or draw 0-0 at home.

I enjoy thought-provoking critiques, I dive into interesting formation debates, discussion on players weaknesses and how to maximize their potential, what the manager could do to improve the team, tweaks, squad strengthening etc. That is the criticism of which you speak and forms the basis of reasoned, rationale and above all, logical debate.

I do not enjoy pissing and moaning that Liverpool aren't paying Falcao £250,000 a week to recover from his injury, that Balotelli isn't as good as Suarez, that Ronaldo made Skrtel look stupid (Ronaldo makes everyone look stupid) in short I do not enjoy brainless whinging that has zero context, is 100% fickle and bases its rationality on a nostalgic view of the 1980s that never, ever existed in the first place.

Pah, rant over, how's that for meta-criticism?

[The 5th Benitle]

I looked down the board and saw two similar threads - one from Walshy's Mallet and another i can't recall which had been locked - somewhat disdainfully I d say - by a few of the mods.

I only see one, by Walshy's - which was badly timed. There's a place for discussion on transfer policy, and hopefully this is now it - but there's a time for it too. Posting it at the final whistle of the game is the very definition of a kneejerk reaction.

[The 5th Benitle]

Pah, rant over, how's that for meta-criticism?

Superb, since you ask

[Always_A_Red]

We just make silly mistake after silly mistake, and far too many in the fan base are too busy patting the club on the back, even when we fuck up, all in the name of 'The Liverpool Way'. This isn't the 70s or 80s any more, The Liverpool Way no longer exists, except for in the minds of those living in the past. Football has changed. Liverpool Football Club has changed.

It's time we got with the times.

God that's depressing. Its bang on the money though  So many on here quick to shoot people down to follow the traditions of the Liverpool way & yet the club have completely lost them themselves. Mighty Fucking Red anyone? Shutting out local lads and young fans for obscene ticket prices anyone?

So yes, people may have a moan. People may be pissed off but frankly when you are paying on average more than any other supporter in the country to be served up some of the crap we have watched so far this season, I can understand why people are frustrated. I certainly am.

[TSC]

Excellent OP & hopefully this thread stays open a bit for a bit of discussion.

[Timbo's Goals]

Part of my problem with much of the criticism levelled at the club isn't that it's not warranted (I don't think it is) but it reflects a rather unlikable trend apparent in the modern game, namely a lack of patience and tendency to the histrionic.

9 games into the season, 3 points off 2nd, already I am seeing posters calling for Rodgers head if things don't improve... what the actual fuck???

9 games into the season, 3 points off 2nd and players with a handful of appearances are  being written off... what the actual fuck???

A home draw in a game that the team dominated and had a handful of good chances to win and this constitutes a crisis in some peoples eyes... what the actual fuck???

Dean Saunders criticized Balotelli on the radio for... coming onto the pitch last after halftime "the manager won't like that..." he said... what the actual fuck???

The media have already decided Liverpool are in crisis... "Oooh, what will Brendan do with his rubbish defenders (that have played a few minutes together at most) the troublemaker Balotelli (eh?) the underwhelming Lallana (what 4, 5 starts?)... they have wasted the Suarez money"... what the actual fuck???

Posters complaining after the best team in the world with the best player in the world took a naive, young side with little European experience to task... what the actual fuck???

And after every game in which Liverpool throw in a less stellar performance I read lines like "should be challenging for the top", "anything less than 4th is a failure", "Brendan has to sort it out, not good enough", "why didn't we buy X, Y, Z, they were available?", "Sell X,Y,Z at Christmas, not a Liverpool player"... what the actual fuck???

Fuck me, short memories some people. Since 2009 Liverpool have been a mid-table side. The club was in danger of irrelevancy, the new, new Spurs... instead we have new owners making the club wealthier, redeveloping the squad, a young, exciting, attacking manager (though he is a bit Brentish, yes), loads of quality players in the youths and reserves, loads of quality players in the first team, back competing on a  range of fronts... and struggling in the short term because they have yet to gel, not unexpected and something a number of people had suggested would happen during the summer (myself included). Transition I called it.

Yet, a load of 606ing, Daily Mail reading, half-and-half top wearing, illegal stream watching, pie gargling miseries who have never even been stood outside Anfield wishing they had a ticket, never mind inside to watch a game, feel compelled to post outrage 2 seconds after a game when Liverpool fail to put QPR to the sword, or draw 0-0 at home.

I enjoy thought-provoking critiques, I dive into interesting formation debates, discussion on players weaknesses and how to maximize their potential, what the manager could do to improve the team, tweaks, squad strengthening etc. That is the criticism of which you speak and forms the basis of reasoned, rationale and above all, logical debate.

I do not enjoy pissing and moaning that Liverpool aren't paying Falcao £250,000 a week to recover from his injury, that Balotelli isn't as good as Suarez, that Ronaldo made Skrtel look stupid (Ronaldo makes everyone look stupid) in short I do not enjoy brainless whinging that has zero context, is 100% fickle and bases its rationality on a nostalgic view of the 1980s that never, ever existed in the first place.

Pah, rant over, how's that for meta-criticism?

Forgive me if I've mis-read your response DW - and the same goes for you Mel [4Pool].

But have you anywhere in your responses attempted to tackle the main, nay, total thrust of my opening post [forget the taboo shite]

It's a simple point.

We didn't buy like-for-like style [that's style not necessarily quality] forward replacements for the departing Suarez and the injury-prone sturridge.

Instead we bought two players who can not and never will be able to replicate the roles played by luis and daniel.

At the risk of sounding like some admonishing headmaster would you mind awfully focusing just on that principle. Just for me. The principle applies and is absolutely central to our situation whether it be 9 games into the season or 90 games and I have posted the same thing about two hundred fucking times now so I don't think I'm asking too much.

 

[The 5th Benitle]

Forgive me if I've mis-read your response DW - and the same goes for you Mel [4Pool].

But have you anywhere in your responses attempted to tackle the main, nay, total thrust of my opening post [forget the taboo shite]

It's a simple point.

We didn't buy like-for-like style [that's style not necessarily quality] forward replacements for the departing Suarez and the injury-prone sturridge.

Instead we bought two players who can not and never will be able to replicate the roles played by luis and daniel.

At the risk of sounding like some admonishing headmaster would you mind awfully focusing just on that principle. Just for me. The principle applies and is absolutely central to our situation whether it be 9 games into the season or 90 games and I have posted the same thing about two hundred fucking times now so I don't think I'm asking too much.

 

To be fair, your OP covers far more than that, and the title of it has nothing to do with it. Just playing devil's advocate to an extent. I think this can be used for a discussion on transfer policy sure, but will become boring quickly if people just start criticising Lambert and Balotelli. We've already deleted a few posts that do just that, that isn't the point of the discussion.

[L666KOP]

I tried, I think ?

[Timbo's Goals]

I only see one, by Walshy's - which was badly timed. There's a place for discussion on transfer policy, and hopefully this is now it - but there's a time for it too. Posting it at the final whistle of the game is the very definition of a kneejerk reaction.

It was closed though was it not?

And the poster who posted it was considered and respectful throughout was he not?

Yet his thread - a heartfelt one posted with sincerity and borne on and informed by 20 odd years of solid support for the club - was shut down with all the grace of a bouncer at the Grafton seeing me trying to enter in carpet slippers.

You can see why perhaps I entertained second thoughts about posting a thread about transfer cock-ups in the main title?

 

[Latenight Surfer]

We didn't buy like-for-like style [that's style not necessarily quality] forward replacements for the departing Suarez and the injury-prone sturridge.

Instead we bought two players who can not and never will be able to replicate the roles played by luis and daniel.


 

I would say the same and anyone else would do that too, no one is afraid to but personally I would want to wait on this one for at least December.

 

[Mutton Geoff]

It's what's kept us back over the past two decades.

Convincing ourselves things will work out, and then feeling sorry for ourselves when top players leave. I mean, in the summer you were considered a loon to be unhappy with our transfer window. Losing Suarez, and buying a dozen average to good players was classed as our greatest ever window. That sort of thinking is poisonous. "But, but, but we'll be great in five years".

We just make silly mistake after silly mistake, and far too many in the fan base are too busy patting the club on the back, even when we fuck up, all in the name of 'The Liverpool Way'. This isn't the 70s or 80s any more, The Liverpool Way no longer exists, except for in the minds of those living in the past. Football has changed. Liverpool Football Club has changed.

It's time we got with the times.

Sorry but if the Liverpool Way no longer exists then we are truly fucked,

 Timbo and i are polar opposites on some topics but we can discuss it without histrionics this is probably because we grew up respecting the Liverpool Way and without putting words in Timbo's mouth we both still do.

Problem in here is nothing is as black as some of you like to paint it and nothing is as white as others even myself like to paint it.

 in every thread you will find people taking the middle ground or the grey areas if you wish and talking a lot of sense and then you get someone throwing a written hand grenade into it with a bit of abuse thrown in for effect and the decent posts are drowned in three pages of handbags, oh and by the way i am not hypocritical enough to realise that i react badly sometimes to pointless abuse without any context or content to back it up, i have enough Warnings in the past to realise that .

By the way convincing yourself it will all work out is one way of approaching it, an optimist outlook and surely more refreshing than suggesting everything here is fucked up and as you just demonstrated writing off all the signings on so few games is just illogical and lacking in any patience to see how the season pans out.

Balanced posts are what are required but seldom seen sadly, some of the ones who posted balanced posts have stopped posting these days.

[24/7]

@ TG's last...

In that case, as much WHEN as HOW.

You focus solely on WHY.

All the above needs to taken into consideration when moderating this forum

[L666KOP]

I would say the same and anyone else would do that too, no one is afraid to but personally I would want to wait on this one for at least December.

I wouldn't.

Lambert and Balotelli are both of an age where you can fairly accurately judge what type of player they are. And neither have shown to be anything like the players we need to replace.

[Timbo's Goals]

To be fair, your OP covers far more than that, and the title of it has nothing to do with it. Just playing devil's advocate to an extent. I think this can be used for a discussion on transfer policy sure, but will become boring quickly if people just start criticising Lambert and Balotelli. We've already deleted a few posts that do just that, that isn't the point of the discussion.

Fair enough - though i think DW and Mel know perfectly well what the main thrust of my argument is. I used to debate with mel 14 years ago re Anfield Forever so I know exactly how his approach works with debates he doesn't want to lose.

Hi mel 

Also I have attemptted to explain why the post was split the way it was.

But just to be perfectly clear 5thB in case anybody does miscontrue the highlighted bit inyour post I am in no way criticising Lambert and balotelli.

I am criticising the club management for somehow thinking that they represented in any way shape of form the right style of players to replicate the departing Suarez and Sturridge if injured

[Mutton Geoff]

I wouldn't.

Lambert and Balotelli are both of an age where you can fairly accurately judge what type of player they are. And neither have shown to be anything like the players we need to replace.

Not to harp back in time but neither did for example  John Wark and Ray Kennedy and many more in their first two months and they were also experienced players, but this is a diversion to the thread.

[johnbarnesish]

Nice post timbo

I too am frustrated and disappointed with the lack of ambition, direction, leadership, plan and courage that we seem to make time after time, transfer window after transfer window.

we spent a fortune and overspent a fortune on players who at the time of purchase were generally not good enough - yes the hope is that they will develop and become the next 'whoever' however we paid the prices that we hoped they will grow to be worth rather than what they are actually worth.

we failed to secure someone who could take us to the next level and it feels to me we accepted before the summer that the likes of Chelsea are better than us and whimpered back to fighting for 4th.

I can people shouting for more of the same players come January - using terms like 'ive always lie the look of' 'hes better than what we have already' 'we cant get this player' ' we aint got the money' and the likes of Berahino will be made out to be the real deal.

I really wish I had an insight to the transfer policy of the club and how the targets are set etc as it doesn't seem to be to optimistic

[CraigDS]

I am criticising the club management for somehow thinking that they represented in any way shape of form the right style of players to replicate the departing Suarez and Sturridge if injured

Given we scored 101 goals last season, something we were unlikely to replicate this season no matter who we signed to replace Suarez, and still didn't win the league the idea was not to replicate the same style but to try and bring something different which was more capable of winning the league (without a Suarez type player, i.e. top 3 in the world).