Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Timbo's Goals]

Since when did criticism of the club become taboo...whether it be done rationally, irrationally, quietly or loudly?

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that some of RAWK's moderators and a swathe of both long standing and new posters seem to carry the notion that any overt criticism of the club, manager, management, owners, players etc etc is taboo; that those doing the complaining are displaying some sort of lack of loyalty; that sections of the media may latch onto it and...well... say nasty things about our club based upon what they read.   

Where the hell did this ridiculous notion come from?

From what I've witnessed over countless decades of matchgoing, pub going etc football supporters whether Liverpool, Everton or Marine have always ranked amongst the most critical breed of human kind I've ever come across ranging from those with completely sound and considered misgivings to ranting lunatics with scarcely an ounce of justification or logic in their barmy moronic bayings.

Yet from whichever end of the spectrum they might emanate, the pearls of wisdom/utter shite they pour out are and always have been a hugely vital part of what the game is about. Without such impassioned outpourings the game would not be the fantastic emotional cauldron it demands to be; those delivering the diatribes meanwhile whether completely sane and rational or loopy and misguided might as well all be watching tiddlywinks.

So, if anyone can tell me where the desire for such an embargo on ranting and raving about anything to do with our club has come from and why those doing it are regarded by those who don’t rant and rave as lesser fans – and vice versa – I'd be extremely grateful - and perhaps educated in ways beyond my current ken. [not King Ken btw  ]

Anyroad, now to the main issue related to what I can only term this sort of extreme sensitivity. 

The latest round of it was in connection with the loudly aired frustrations of several posters – with myself featured prominently – lambasting the club management for their pivotal role in our current indifferent form. This was by virtue of the club’s failure to expedite a transfer policy in the summer that met or went towards meeting the core need of the club to maintain as near as possible the form of the preceding season. 

The preceding season had seen the team’s success largely stemming from a pacy and mobile attacking approach spearheaded by two strikers who were not only ideally suited to such an approach but constituted the principal driving forces behind it. With the leading striker of the two leaving the club and the remaining striker a player highly prone to muscle injury and as such unable to be relied upon for a full season’s participation, it became incumbent upon the club management to ensure attacking outlets were acquired in the summer that could at least begin to replicate the performances of the attacking outlets.

The club duly signed Rickie Lambert and Mario Balotelli.

Now I have never been one to diss individual players out of hand. I make my judgements as to a player’s abilities and I would guess I’ve been wrong as often as I’ve been right concerning the abilities of such players. I do not diss them, however, whether at the match or on a public forum. So I have not and will not diss either of the two strikers we signed. It’s too early days in any case and they may or may not still have a part to play in the future of this club in roles they are suited to playing.

However, what I will say is that if the club had wanted to sign two strikers representing precisely the type of attacking outlet that we were not looking for to replicate the preceding season’s style of attacking play then the club would have plumped for Rickie Lambert and Mario Balotelli.

And, just to reinforce that notion, most certainly had the club genuinely been looking for players that were   suited to replicating the fast mobile attacking strategy Ricky and Mario would have come pretty low down on the target list or not made such a list at all.

As you might have gathered by now the piece I’ve compiled is a bit of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The moderators do not want a thread that appears to slag off the club management. I can understand that, given the sensitivity that does exist regarding such matters. Which is why I’ve combined the two themes under the less controversial thread title.

Make no mistake, however, I am fucking raging at the incompetence of the club management with regard to this issue. What they have done/failed to do is fucking deplorable for a footballing institution of our standing, most especially one that during the latter stages of last season looked very much like it was on the cusp of something truly special, something that - with the correct and responsible management strategy and the huge transfer monies from Luis’s departure to the Spanish Inquisitors - had every chance of at the very least maintaining and very possibly improving upon the levels of performance we witnessed last season.

Had players of the sort of style and calibre our system of play demanded been brought in – and I’m not talking mega stars I simply mean talent that equated with our style and needs – and had such players not succeeded in providing/maintaining the team with the level of performance desired then I can assure anybody still reading this outpouring that you would not have heard so much as the slightest fucking peep from me. [that’s possibly an outright lie by the way  ]

However, that sort of sensible management strategy with an eye on the core objective is not the case. The fact is, despite the core objective screaming out at us loudly and clearly, we fucked up badly. Very badly. That core objective needed to be maintaining or if possibly improving the overall team performance levels. Fleshing out the squad to enable us to meet the additional Champions league demands was clearly also a priority but the overwhelming urgency was to ensure Luis’s departure and a potential injury to Daniel Sturridge did not leave us bare and exposed.

Yet it so manifestly has. And I am so pissed off by it. So there you go. That’s the way I feel. A time served fan of countless years and i can scarcely recall such a huge avoidable cock-up at the very heart of our playing strategy in all that time. Sure there’s been mistakes. Shanks made them. Bob made them. Kenny certainly made them. Not, however, over something so glaringly obvious as this.

And I must add before finishing. I do not see Brendan as the main culprit here. As it is I do not know enough about how the club management all hangs together – and I’m not sure anybody else does either given the veils of secrecy that mask the club management – but I would bet a pound to a pinch of shite that Brendan did not wish to embark upon the season with one pacy striker especially one that he more than anybody would have known could be absent at any time with muscle injuries. Also we must not forget the entire aberration, albeit there from the day the window closed, has only manifested itself since Daniel was injured and with a good wind he may be back before too long to provide that ever so vital ingredient of getting beyond the opposition back four. Perhaps in tandem with Mario as we saw at White Hart Lane.

In the meantime do forgive me if I regard raking over the coals of a home draw against a shite Hull City is like playing the fucking fiddle while yer arsehole's on fire. Until the ostriches amongst us admit to the biggest elephant any room has ever housed then as far as I’m concerned any discussion about specific performances that do not commence with the elephant in the room as the base-line is an entire fucking waste of time and space.

Footy? A Game of opinions. Yeah, right
 

[Adeemo]

Make no mistake, however, I am fucking raging at the incompetence of the club management with regard to this issue. What they have done/failed to do is fucking deplorable for a footballing institution of our standing, most especially one that during the latter stages of last season looked very much like it was on the cusp of something truly special, something that - with the correct and responsible management strategy and the huge transfer monies from Luis’s departure to the Spanish Inquisitors - had every chance of at the very least maintaining and very possibly improving upon the levels of performance we witnessed last season.

Couldn't agree more.

[redmark]

However, that sort of sensible management strategy with an eye on the core objective is not the case. The fact is, despite the core objective screaming out at us loudly and clearly, we fucked up badly. Very badly. That core objective needed to be maintaining or if possibly improving the overall team performance levels. Fleshing out the squad to enable us to meet the additional Champions league demands was clearly also a priority but the overwhelming urgency was to ensure Luis’s departure and a potential injury to Daniel Sturridge did not leave us bare and exposed.

Yet it so manifestly has. And I am so pissed off by it. So there you go. That’s the way I feel. A time served fan of countless years and i can scarcely recall such a huge avoidable cock-up at the very heart of our playing strategy in all that time. Sure there’s been mistakes. Shanks made them. Bob made them. Kenny certainly made them. Not, however, over something so glaringly obvious as this.

And I must add before finishing. I do not see Brendan as the main culprit here. As it is I do not know enough about how the club management all hangs together – and I’m not sure anybody else does either given the veils of secrecy that mask the club management – but I would bet a pound to a pinch of shite that Brendan did not wish to embark upon the season with one pacy striker especially one that he more than anybody would have known could be absent at any time with muscle injuries. Also we must not forget the entire aberration, albeit there from the day the window closed, has only manifested itself since Daniel was injured and with a good wind he may be back before too long to provide that ever so vital ingredient of getting beyond the opposition back four. Perhaps in tandem with Mario as we saw at White Hart Lane.

I agree it's a cockup, and have been saying for a while (without being pounced upon by any mods or other posters) that the failure to buy adequate cover for Sturridge is a painful and potentially costly failure.

But whose failure is it? We can, for the sake of wishing to publicly appearing utterly loyal to the manager, assume it was a failing of the owners or the transfer committee. But I haven't seen any of those tell-tale signs of dissatisfaction from the manager on the summer's transfer dealings. He has said previously, and repeatedly, that he has ultimate control of signings. In the absence of evidence - or even hints - to the contrary, I'm afraid this looks like an oversight by the manager; his public frustration with Hodgson over Sturridge's injury smacks of a man as annoyed with himself as anyone else.

On the broader point, all the arguments (and the posters making them) are getting a little tired, I think. I know when I see who's posted last in certain threads the broad gist of what they've said before they've said it (and I'm sure others think the same of me). No doubt there's some frustration with certain posters dropping certain hints in every thread they post in; from those who have never forgiven Rodgers for succeeding Dalglish, to those who have never forgiven FSG for being American capitalists and those who believe any form of committee decision making process to be the work of the devil. We could list the 'top 10' posters in each category right now, and matchup on 7 or 8 of the names.

[Timbo's Goals]

I agree it's a cockup, and have been saying for a while (without being pounced upon by any mods or other posters) that the failure to buy adequate cover for Sturridge is a painful and potentially costly failure.

But whose failure is it? We can, for the sake of wishing to publicly appearing utterly loyal to the manager, assume it was a failing of the owners or the transfer committee. But I haven't seen any of those tell-tale signs of dissatisfaction from the manager on the summer's transfer dealings. He has said previously, and repeatedly, that he has ultimate control of signings. In the absence of evidence - or even hints - to the contrary, I'm afraid this looks like an oversight by the manager; his public frustration with Hodgson over Sturridge's injury smacks of a man as annoyed with himself as anyone else.

On the broader point, all the arguments (and the posters making them) are getting a little tired, I think. I know when I see who's posted last in certain threads the broad gist of what they've said before they've said it (and I'm sure others think the same of me). No doubt there's some frustration with certain posters dropping certain hints in every thread they post in; from those who have never forgiven Rodgers for succeeding Dalglish, to those who have never forgiven FSG for being American capitalists and those who believe any form of committee decision making process to be the work of the devil. We could list the 'top 10' posters in each category right now, and matchup on 7 or 8 of the names.

But this lies at the very heart of what matters interms of our playing strategy. It could well demonstrate that we as a club as an entity didn't know what we were fucking doing. And that kills me given where we were because it also tells me that perhaps we didn't actually understand how or why we'd got to the position we'd actually got to. That perhaps it was simply a coming together of certain factors that simply happened and were not engineered.

So you may be fucking bored by it - and I'm sorry to hear that - but I'm fucking living and breathing the frustration and I have to say I simply cannot understand why every red isn't sharing the frustration. It was a fucking massive cock-up.

[Mutton Geoff]

Timbo its how these matters are expressed you do it with style and panache others go OTT with the world is ending level of discussion, there is a lot FSG has done that i take issue with, for example just two are the way they got rid of Kenny was classless, the fact that a top executive appears to need to be based in London.

I don't agree with the way the new players are not given time to settle before we call them or the committee shit,  far too soon to judge with any certainty yet, i know you think we bought the wrong type of player but who knows what plans Rodgers had for this season with all the players fit and healthy, i am still in a wait and see mode on that one.

I think and i don't mean you Timbo far too many want to constantly throw the baby out with the bathwater and that polarises views, it comes down to levels of criticism and is it justified and constructive for me.

[redmark]

But this lies at the very heart of what matters interms of our playing strategy. It could well demonstrate that we as a club as an entity didn't know what we were fucking doing. And that kills me given where we were because it also tells me that perhaps we didn't actually understand how or why we'd got to the position we'd actually got to. That perhaps it was simply a coming together of certain factors that simply happened and were not engineered.

So you may be fucking bored by it - and I'm sorry to hear that - but I'm fucking living and breathing the frustration and I have to say I simply cannot understand why every red isn't sharing the frustration. It was a fucking massive cock-up.

Not bored of this point in particular, and I agree with it. I may not agree with the conclusion, because I've seen no evidence that Rodgers sought to buy a pacy goalscorer and was prevented by anyone from doing so. But as ever, most people's conclusions confirm their own beliefs so the criticism becomes a circular rehash of arguments against manager, owners or committee. Which is fine, but may be why the mods get bored of it after a few pages.

[Nessy76]

It seems to me more about wanting to moderate the tone of the forum than any attempt to change the attitudes of fans, which would be pissing in the wind. There are posters who only ever come onto RAWK to have a moan. And that's not what RAWK is meant to be. There are plenty of other, unmoderated forums where anything goes. What tends to happen in those is not particularly interesting reading, it descends rapidly into childish name-calling, with everyone certain of his opinion and utterly convinced that everyone else in the discussion is a complete idiot.

Been there, done it. Lit the flames, called people stupid, got very angry, lost a bit of sleep.

What RAWK seems to aspire to is a more measured, intelligent look at the game. Somewhere tactics isn't a dirty word, somewhere you can talk about football in a way that would just never occur to the tabloid-hungry masses. And part of that ethos is the idea that RAWK is for Liverpool supporters, and that supporters first and foremost support, in action and in word, the club, the team, the management and the players.


For some, that's a natural idea, and it can lead to very good conversations, for others, the line between constructive criticism and pointless moaning is more of a grey area. Some mods might leap onto a post that is smart and well thought out simply because it has a negative connotation (although in my years on here I personally have never seen than happen once) and some posters might feel that their opinions are valid and they are being drowned out because they don't really see how they come across (I do see a lot of that)

There's a balance to be struck between navel-gazing, fiddling while Rome burns, unblinking and uncritical positivity and raging blind destructive fury. Most of the time, that leaves a huge amount of fertile territory for us to play about in. And that's how I've learned a lot about the game, about the club, about the city I live in, about people's lives, about crap jokes. But when people feel things aren't going well, panic can set in, everyone wants to have a say, everyone knows how to solve the problems, and no-one wants to listen or, more accurately, read what others think.

Like many, I avoid the place after a bad result. Recently, I even avoid it after a good result if it hasn't been a particularly pretty one. It does nothing for me to read all the angry words, words that typically shout the loudest when they have least to say, voices that seem to rise above the crowd more through persistance than perceptive observations.

I have nothing but respect for the mods, although I have often disagreed with some of them as posters, it's not a job I'd want in a million years. But they do a pretty good job of it. This is still the best football forum I know of, by a very long distance.

[Tobez]

An interesting OP. I suppose there is a point to be made that stopping people from making any criticism at all stifles the debate and renders a forum of any sort rather pointless; I also think that this is in no way happening on RAWK. If you don't believe me, go and look in the post-match thread. I agree that as fans of the club we should be amongst the most critical in terms of demanding the best from the players and the management, because a head-in-the-sand policy will get us nowhere. Fundamentally, we all want the club to succeed, and if it does not appear to be doing so then it is easy to get frustrated.

So far, so reasonable.

The problem arises when people are hyper-critical, incredibly quickly. Yes, the performances aren't exactly where we'd like to be, the drop-off from last season has been quite dramatic and none of the new signings have really hit the ground running (full-backs aside). However, we're less than a quarter of the way through the season. We're not badly placed in the league, still more than capable of getting out of our group in the CL and showing signs of improvement in the performances - all whilst dealing with a number of injuries which have all had an impact in one way or another. Being critical for criticism's sake is self-defeating. It translates into the crowd, which in turns affects the players on the pitch. Our first hour against Hull was poor, yes - but then the whole atmosphere inside the stadium was muted. It's not just criticism, but also how the criticism is often reactionary, rather than thought out. People don't take stock of a wider situation and prefer instead to rant and rail because it makes them feel better, but all it does is make the place a hive of negativity.

Then there's the transfers. People seem to just love pointing out that we've 'bought mediocrity' and how we should have 'bought quality'. I don't buy that for one second. Looking at the transfers identified by the club over the past couple of windows that didn't happen - players like Costa, Mkhitarayan, Willian, Sanchez - the failure was nothing to do with the quality of scouting or even the money on offer. They just didn't want to come. It's true, we could offer £250,000 per week to entice them, but that hamstrings negotiations for the next few windows as players realise they can hold us to ransom, use us as a payday, and then move on.

Beyond that, it's ridiculous, even insulting, to attack the transfers this window. Balotelli has started six league games. SIX. Obviously that's enough time to make a judgement. Markovic has been injured, and made a few cameos since coming back, sometimes looking very promising - the game against City springs to mind. Lallana is also dealing with injury, has looked good in a few games and had a couple of off days. Lambert as well has performed decently when asked. Even Lovren, who perhaps has the worst record of the new signings, is having to adjust to a CB partner who seems to find the concept of a high line personally injurious. Well they're all shit, Rodgers is ruining the club, the committee should be sacked and we should probably just write the season off already. And the next one after that, of course.

Criticism has its place by all means but it should be reasoned, measured criticism. To say 'the transfers haven't been good enough' on such a small amount of evidence is ridiculous. Likewise pretending everything is going brilliantly is also wrong, but no-one is doing that. This is a process and sometimes we'll have to take a couple of steps back to improve in the long-term. We needed more depth than last year and we've got it; the team will click and those calling for heads already will be made to look pretty silly.

[L666KOP]

Blimey Timbo.

What an excellent OP. You've clearly got too much time on your hands.
 

When the curtain fell on the summer window, on the face of it many of us thought it was quite successful. Sure, we missed out on Sanchez, and Remy wasn't to be. But it looked for all intents and purposes to have addressed a few issues.

However, and it might appear to be impatient on my behalf, things are nowhere near being as close as we first thought, or were lead to believe by some of our posters.

I'm not sure of the exact amount of money we spent, and the net spend argument is moot at this point. But we had over 100 million pounds to spend, our main aim was to try and replace Luis Suarez, and beef up the squad with players that are ready now. We've failed spectacularly. Not only have we failed to replace him, in any way shape or form, but we've failed to come close to using our money wisely.

We bought Markovic for 20m pounds, yet he looks at least a season away from being good enough to contribute at a meaningful level regularly. Is that his fault ? Clearly not, but in his development a season sat on the bench with only an odd League cup outing, and rare cameo will do him more harm than good. He should have been left at his club, or we should loan him out if we think he's not quite there.
Origi was bought for 10m pounds, and left at Lille. One for next season we're told, or will he come in and need 'time to settle'. It might be 2 years before he's making an impact.
Mario Balotelli, nice guy, probably trying too hard though. But at what point did we think he was what we needed ? Just who was responsible for suggesting/sanctioning a move for him ? Was he a 'bean counter' signing, because in the box labelled 'Moneyball' he finds himself patiently waiting for the next European superpower to think they'll 'sort him'. Don't worry though, Mystic Brendan will sort him out, and turn him into Lionel Messi.
So that's 46m pounds, wasted? Strong word that, and probably the wrong word to use, but fuck me it could have been spent better. pent on players that will actually contribute at the level we were told our signings would.

Lovren is another strange one, we spent 16m? on Sakho, a LCB 18 months ago, yet we need to spend 20m on another one so soon ? Tell me why, again, everyone on here was looking forward to a leader coming in and making a partnership with the regular French CB, and he's not playing for France due a dearth of players able to fill in. There's some decent players can't dislodge him. Yet week upon week we see Keystone cops level of defending.

That takes us up to roughly 66m pounds. It's a lot of money, and a one off unless we develop the next 'Suarez' to sell.

Brendan wanted players for now, he was given a new contract and there was talk of him having more say in player recruitment, looking in from the outside that's not happened.

From a simpleton's perspective it's like me taking the kids to the supermarket after I've given them their pocket money and then telling them what to buy.

This summer was supposed to be different, and in a way it was, this time the amounts were just greater.

After last season it's just so frustrating to see that we appear to have to tear up the plan and start again.

[didi]

What's apparant to me is anytime we have a chance to take one step forward we press the self destruct button, history is littered with this in the premier league era

[Redman0151]

I think it's just a point of some people's nature.

Not just football, go to a gaming forum or a comic forum or a car forum or whatever, and you'll likely see people blindly defending every single action and decision their favourite company takes as they feel it's their duty to back them up no matter what.

Maybe part of it has to do with not going the game, somebody from say Australia who has never been to Anfield might think the way they show their support of the team is by blindly backing every decision the club/manager does without discussion/question because they know they can't be at Anfield every week cheering the team on. I think the club and Brendan made some awful decisions in the summer, but i'll still be singing Rodgers' name tomorrow against Swansea and backing him.


Personally, I show my support by going to the game every other week and cheering us on from start to finish, I might not think Skrtel or Johnson or Gerrard or whoever else are good enough anymore and will probably criticise them to my mates or on RAWK, but at the game they have my backing from start to finish

[BER]

Tough one, what if Balo and Lambert were the strikers Rodgers wanted? Not comfortable with all our problems on the pitch being landed at the feet of people in the background, and absolving Rodgers from any criticism. The problems this season have been there for a few years, only this time theres no Suarez to hide them.

You say we needed a certain type of player, Rodgers might not be thinking along the same lines. Bit like the keeper, centreback situation, people project their own ideas of how we want to play, whilst not looking at the evidence. We signed Mignolet when apparently our style of play demands a sweeper keeper.

[Miltonred]

Nice post Tim. You have it right. Expressing frustration is met with what essentially amounts to abuse.
I've been a fan from the day I can first remember watching a game on the telly (74 FA Cup Final) going to my first match as a 9yr old (St. Etienne semi final), days on the cop and the first time I took up my season ticket seat in the Main Stand, but for some reason if I suggest we have bought players who I believe will never make us a better team (and I sincerely believe that, I'll explain why shortly) I am a "tit", and various other things, according to, not members with ten posts, but members with thousands. A well reasoned argument I suppose, for them.

Anyway. I am not altogether surprised by the use of money this summer. With two exceptions, Coutinho and Sturridge our purchasing under Rodgers (and lots of other managers) has been very poor at worst (Aspas et al) , to average at best (Sakho, Allen etc.)

The fact we blew, what was it 100 million, and have a mid table performing team was really quite predictable.

Last season we caught lightning in a bottle, but make no mistake Luis Suarez was the conductor in chief of our team, and even in his absence the belief he brought the team carried them through many games. Unfortunately it seems that Brendan gained a huge amount of belief from last season that he could take any player with "the right ingredients" and apply his philosophy to produce the same swashbuckling displays and get the same results.  Sadly I think that he may have over estimated that power.

Regarding why I don't think any of the new players will make a significant contribution to our success.  Even a raw player who takes a while to settle in, typically does something that raises your eyebrows within  a couple of games - that player will still be confused a little by the new "system" they are being bought into, but instinct will kick in at one point and they will show what they can do, even if its just a flash.

I have only seen that with Moreno and his goal against Spurs, but since then he has had lots of freedom to show real pace and technique  o the left and hasn't mimicked that moment in terms of quality (i'm not expecting him to run the length of the field and slam in a worldy every week - but one or two real quality crosses would suffice).

Anyway rant over. Hopefully I am totally wrong and Daniel will transform us back into a contending team.

[4pool]

You lot whinge to much..

If it last were summer and I was looking at things post Suarez, I would be looking for someone to compliment Daniel Sturridge. Of those strikers available Balotelli would have been on the list. ( As a personal note I championed Enner Valencia posting on another forum and wanted us to pull the rug on West Ham before they got him).

So of those strikers "out there" we got one of our targets.

But the rub is....to play with Daniel. The truth is, they haven't featured much at all together.

Before we go casting stones/bricks at the club and the transfer committee over what they did striker wise, how about a bit more patience to see if their logic at the time is/was sound. Not go whinging because Balotelli isn't as cut out to play lone striker.

Nor that Rickie Lambert was only brought in as a option late in a match when we need something different, again a criticism of seasons past thrown the clubs way.

Logically the club acted in the correct manner. Acquired their targets. But the injury Gods have conspired against us. Imho..

[Nessy76]

Blimey Timbo.

What an excellent OP. You've clearly got too much time on your hands.
 

When the curtain fell on the summer window, on the face of it many of us thought it was quite successful. Sure, we missed out on Sanchez, and Remy wasn't to be. But it looked for all intents and purposes to have addressed a few issues.

However, and it might appear to be impatient on my behalf, things are nowhere near being as close as we first thought, or were lead to believe by some of our posters.

I'm not sure of the exact amount of money we spent, and the net spend argument is moot at this point. But we had over 100 million pounds to spend, our main aim was to try and replace Luis Suarez, and beef up the squad with players that are ready now. We've failed spectacularly. Not only have we failed to replace him, in any way shape or form, but we've failed to come close to using our money wisely.

We bought Markovic for 20m pounds, yet he looks at least a season away from being good enough to contribute at a meaningful level regularly. Is that his fault ? Clearly not, but in his development a season sat on the bench with only an odd League cup outing, and rare cameo will do him more harm than good. He should have been left at his club, or we should loan him out if we think he's not quite there.
Origi was bought for 10m pounds, and left at Lille. One for next season we're told, or will he come in and need 'time to settle'. It might be 2 years before he's making an impact.
Mario Balotelli, nice guy, probably trying too hard though. But at what point did we think he was what we needed ? Just who was responsible for suggesting/sanctioning a move for him ? Was he a 'bean counter' signing, because in the box labelled 'Moneyball' he finds himself patiently waiting for the next European superpower to think they'll 'sort him'. Don't worry though, Mystic Brendan will sort him out, and turn him into Lionel Messi.
So that's 46m pounds, wasted? Strong word that, and probably the wrong word to use, but fuck me it could have been spent better. pent on players that will actually contribute at the level we were told our signings would.

Lovren is another strange one, we spent 16m? on Sakho, a LCB 18 months ago, yet we need to spend 20m on another one so soon ? Tell me why, again, everyone on here was looking forward to a leader coming in and making a partnership with the regular French CB, and he's not playing for France due a dearth of players able to fill in. There's some decent players can't dislodge him. Yet week upon week we see Keystone cops level of defending.

That takes us up to roughly 66m pounds. It's a lot of money, and a one off unless we develop the next 'Suarez' to sell.

Brendan wanted players for now, he was given a new contract and there was talk of him having more say in player recruitment, looking in from the outside that's not happened.

From a simpleton's perspective it's like me taking the kids to the supermarket after I've given them their pocket money and then telling them what to buy.

This summer was supposed to be different, and in a way it was, this time the amounts were just greater.

After last season it's just so frustrating to see that we appear to have to tear up the plan and start again.

I think this post is interesting. It's well thought-out and makes very reasonable points. I don't agree with a lot of it, but that's football. What makes it interesting, though, is that it turns up in this thread. This thread seems to me to be about the idea of whether we can complain and to what extent, but it very easily gets derailed (maybe too harsh, maybe I'm misunderstanding) into a topic that is already being well discussed across a large number of threads (it seems, there are some threads I just don't go into that much) - the actual ins and outs of last summer's transfer activity.

So while part of me wants to join in and tell L666KOP that while I respect his opinion, I have a different way of looking at some of these issues, I know that even though he's a good poster, and I try not to be a total dickhead some of the time, it's not an argument for this thread. And that's the sort of thing that makes it hard to read a lot of threads here, even if the individual post might be perfectly reasonable, is this the right place for it, or is it taking us away from the question at hand?

[L666KOP]

And just to be clear on the 'moaning, complaining whinging' aspect of the OP. It's the bedwetters that litter the Postmatch threads that boil my piss.

If you think Brendan should be sacked, fair enough, but do it in a calm controlled, objective manner. Tell us why you think it, if you do it in a post that contains sound reasoning you'll probably get a decent response.

Don't drop in a snidey one liner then disappear.

If you think there's problems, explain it logically, sensibly, and in a coherent manner, a proper conversation no matter the content is more likely to spark a decent debate than some of the shit people write in a fit of anger at our latest poor performance.

[Tobez]

Also re: the point about covering for Sturridge's absence I think I should probably add something since I comprehensively failed to do so in my last post. Mea culpa. It's all very well saying that we should have been prepared for Sturridge to be out given his history of injury and the way that the England team like to treat him; fair enough. That said, we did try and sign another pacy player who could stretch opposition teams - Sanchez. He didn't want to come. Not for footballing reasons, they said, but people can surmise what they will from that. Bottom line is, he didn't want to come. So we turned to Remy. He didn't make it through the medical, so we didn't sign him. It does seem odd that he could pass a medical at Chelsea, but maybe there are different standards in different clubs, or whatever.

At that point...who do we sign? It's all very well saying Enner Valencia, or Sakho, or Mane or Tadic or whoever else has been playing with pace this season so far, but there is absolutely NO guarantee they would be good at Liverpool with the added pressure of playing for such a giant club. We instead went for a player who has lots of experience in the top flight, a decent goal record in top leagues and was available for a decent price (just a reminder, Shane Long went for £12m, and has hardly set the world alight...but he runs about a lot, so he must be a bargain) to play alongside Sturridge. The real shame is that Sturridge got injured so early on in the season, before Balotelli had time to adjust and time to work on leading the line on his own. It was perhaps not the best idea in the world but it's still very early days and hindsight is always 20-20. Frustrating it is, but it is not the end of the world yet.

[Nessy76]

And just to be clear on the 'moaning, complaining whinging' aspect of the OP. It's the bedwetters that litter the Postmatch threads that boil my piss.

If you think Brendan should be sacked, fair enough, but do it in a calm controlled, objective manner. Tell us why you think it, if you do it in a post that contains sound reasoning you'll probably get a decent response.

Don't drop in a snidey one liner then disappear.

If you think there's problems, explain it logically, sensibly, and in a coherent manner, a proper conversation no matter the content is more likely to spark a decent debate than some of the shit people write in a fit of anger at our latest poor performance.

Yes. I can totally understand the need to do it. Personally, I can contain myself to just shouting "FOR FUCKS SAKE" or similar at the disappointing moment in question and then try to put my calmer and more rational hat on when I'm discussing it later, but a lot of posters (and age could well be a big factor in this a lot of the time, god knows what I'd have been like if I'd had internet forums to whine in when I was 13 or so) just vent, vent, vent, with no thought for who is reading it, or what they will get from this apart from a dull burning pain behind the eyes.

[L666KOP]

I think

I've added a post to complete my personal assessment.
 

I've just taken a broader view of Timbo's post, and answered some of the 'questions' that posters are being slagged off for.

I'm probably a touch to strong in what I say, but I've tried to do it in a sensible manner. And am happy to engage in further debate as to the validity of my thoughts. I'm glad it provoked a response other than the usual rolling about laughing emoticon and to be told I'm an impatient twat and have no place in the thread.
 

[Tobez]

I think this post is interesting. It's well thought-out and makes very reasonable points. I don't agree with a lot of it, but that's football. What makes it interesting, though, is that it turns up in this thread. This thread seems to me to be about the idea of whether we can complain and to what extent, but it very easily gets derailed (maybe too harsh, maybe I'm misunderstanding) into a topic that is already being well discussed across a large number of threads (it seems, there are some threads I just don't go into that much) - the actual ins and outs of last summer's transfer activity.

So while part of me wants to join in and tell L666KOP that while I respect his opinion, I have a different way of looking at some of these issues, I know that even though he's a good poster, and I try not to be a total dickhead some of the time, it's not an argument for this thread. And that's the sort of thing that makes it hard to read a lot of threads here, even if the individual post might be perfectly reasonable, is this the right place for it, or is it taking us away from the question at hand?

An interesting question. I think that it's possible to say that people are arguing about when certain criticism is justified. It's not taboo to criticise, but rather the timing and nature of said criticism. Given that the OP mentioned the transfers as being one of the main things they wanted to criticise, then arguing about the relative merites and demerits of the transfers has an element of looking at how that criticism is shaped and when it should be moderated or otherwise.

[Mutton Geoff]

And just to be clear on the 'moaning, complaining whinging' aspect of the OP. It's the bedwetters that litter the Postmatch threads that boil my piss.

If you think Brendan should be sacked, fair enough, but do it in a calm controlled, objective manner. Tell us why you think it, if you do it in a post that contains sound reasoning you'll probably get a decent response.

Don't drop in a snidey one liner then disappear.

If you think there's problems, explain it logically, sensibly, and in a coherent manner, a proper conversation no matter the content is more likely to spark a decent debate than some of the shit people write in a fit of anger at our latest poor performance.

And if they all followed your words the discussions would go up a few levels, i notice even the Round Table is not the quality it used to be maybe that 24 hours minimum before posting needs to be set in stone.

[John C]

To quote your good self Timbo mate.......

Where the hell did this ridiculous notion come from?

It was only yesterday I responded to a poster who had reported negativity in the round table, I didn't delete the post but I explained by pm that its permitted if constructed properly. We're not here to censor you mate, we just delete some of the nasty crap that's posted

In fact I prompted the poster to look at your concerns at the transfers as a reasonable subject being debated   

[SP]

I am supposed to be working, so I don't have the time for a lengthier response. The point that should be made is that people do not get moderated / warned for criticising the club or players. RAWK has an expectation that players and the manager are accorded a basic degree of respect. Thus "Lucas is fucking shit", would earn you a warning. But a comment critiquing his last match suggesting that he may no longer be at the level that we require won't. If you want that kind of debate, Twitter is great for it.

The other thing that triggers moderator interest is the same people having the same argument about the same players. We know that both sides have entrenched positions that will not budge no matter what any one posts. When those arguments are tangential to the topic, we will intervene. Not because they are criticising the player, but because the argument is so repetitive and tedious. The people who think that a player can do no wrong are just as tedious. The endlessly circular arguments killed the player topics.

I'll draft a longer reply when I am not supposed to be working...

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

To quote your good self Timbo mate.......It was only yesterday I responded to a poster who had reported negativity in the round table, I didn't delete the post but I explained by pm that its permitted if constructed properly. We're not here to censor you mate, we just delete some of the nasty crap that's posted

Constructed properly???  You can't even discuss a player in a thread anymore. We are shocking at the minute and have players under performing so player threads are bound to be negative. What do the Mods do?? Shut them as they don't like what's said. The realty is the negative stuff is nearer the reality that the pie in the sky stuff that everything is rosy.

[L666KOP]

And if they all followed your words the discussions would go up a few levels, i notice even the Round Table is not the quality it used to be maybe that 24 hours minimum before posting needs to be set in stone.

Yeah.

I've neither the football knowledge of a PoP, nor the literary skills of the scribes/writers on here, and would never claim to have. But I think people understand my posts even if they think I'm talking bollocks.
 I'll have a debate with anyone, on any subject, even ones that could potentially cause 'unrest'. But let's do it properly.

[sempi]

A phrase of Rafa's springs to mind:   " I asked for a sofa and they got me a  lamp."
Lambert and Butler could fall into that category for Rodgers, though for the life of me I can't understand why signed Mario after publicly stating he would never sign him. Timbo, I think mods aren't so much against criticism as  circular and repetitive arguments. This and name calling.
Many a good thread has been derailed by flying so off the point that it could land on Mars.
In the old days, we only needed to bring one or two players to freshen up the squad. ( I hate that term group!) The committee should be shot for not identifying the flaws in the team and replacing Suarez with a player approaching his genius, even if it meant spending nearly all his fee.
Ask yourself did we really need Lallana at 25 million? when we really needed a holding midfielder?

[Nessy76]

Constructed properly???  You can't even discuss a player in a thread anymore. We are shocking at the minute and have players under performing so player threads are bound to be negative. What do the Mods do?? Shut them as they don't like what's said. The realty is the negative stuff is nearer the reality that the pie in the sky stuff that everything is rosy.

It's tone rather than content, though. Or at least it should be. So, while I might think Mario (for instance) is playing like a donkey, calling him a donkey would be disrepectful, but pointing out that his shot accuracy is well below what it should be and his positioning, team work and mobility are suspect is fine. And that's not just about whether you use longer words, I'm guilty of that sometimes, it's more about trying to express yourself clearly without just being rude, or without just repeating what yourself or someone else has already said dozens of times over.

If you (not you personally) post, and no-one replies, it isn't because they haven't read it. So posting the same thing again ten minutes later is pointless and irritating. I didn't find that comment worthy of a response the first time, the fourth time it's just annoying. And if someone else is making the same post you've read five or six times, with nothing to add except general whinging, then that's annoying too.

I love this club, I support these players, so if you (again, not you personally) have a go at them, you're having a go at me. Even if we don't disagree that a certain player had a poor game, I don't know you and I don't like it when you take the piss out of my club, or my players. And nor would you, if you stopped and thought about it.

[Halcyon Lissome]

It's too easy to criticise when things are going wrong and we have too many people wanting to appear like geniuses or trying to push some narrative they've been using the site's bandwidth to propagate.

If last season Rodgers' use of Sterling, Flanagan, Henderson and Coutinho didn't come off we'd have been criticising the management for not getting the suitable players that could help us to challenge. Now, we're throwing guys like Mario, Lambert, Markovic and others under the bus because they haven't proven a hit like the players of last season. Ultimately, we have to trust the manager. The same one that made all those bold changes and choices last season that helped us to an unbelievable season is the same one working now.

I mean, just imagine if Rodgers on the back of the Hull game decides to pair Lambert and Mario and things click? We start scoring and winning more points. Then everybody becomes a genius again, but on a positive note.

At the end of the day, it's only been 9 fucking games in the league and 3 in the CL and we're placed OK even now. These guys are human beings, not robots.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Like redmark, I don't think it's necessary to make out there's some mystery behind the committee and that it's hamstringing Rodgers. They are his players, his decisions.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/brendan-rodgers-liverpool-fc-transfer-7185770

“The principle idea when I first came in was that like any manager you will have the first call on a player and the last call.

“That’s the call on whether he’s good enough to continue to look at and try to organise a deal and the last call to say yes or no.

“There is a big part that goes on in between. In modern football you need to trust other people to do the work. That’s something we do here and that’s why we have had the success we’ve had.

“The finer details of that are left to Ian who does a terrific job and our other guys in that field who will go through the contracts. I am aware of where the situation is at right the way through the process.

“We will never bring in a player here who the manager doesn’t want in. That’s a great credit to the owners and the other people at the club

_________________________________________________________________________________

He's been clear enough there.

I think there's been a fair amount of criticism of the likes of Lovren, Balotelli, Markovic when their player threads were open. There still is, in the post match ones. The club has taken stick (over the mascot as well!) Rodgers has taken stick, a lot of it fairly. We look shit too often in the defensive phase both in midfield and defence. Not sure what more there is to say, really.

Both Suarez and Sturridge are flexible attackers, rather than pure strikers. For me, to replace Suarez's contributions, I would include all of Balotelli, Lallana, Markovic, not just Balo. Only one has worked out ok so far. In defence, the fullbacks have done ok, Lovren, not so much.

Basically, we did sign players to replace Luis's contributions and help the squad too, players in a similar mould. 3 of them. That hasn't worked out for the group, yet. There isn't much more to it, for me. Only so many times that can be pointed out before people get bored and move on to talking about something else, hence the lack of drama?

[DanA]

I agree, everyone knew that he would be injured at somepoint, what was the plan then?
Makes the whole Eto and Remy deals seem very strange indeed.

We were quite shit at the back last season too, just outscored the other team.  Can't do that this season.

Remy apparently failed a medical. Every second post on RAWK it seems to be brought up but we just don't know what happened. For all we know he came back with cocaine in his system and we didn't want that in our club culture. There's no point talking about it because we're completely in the dark. You can only trust that our staff did their job.

We backed Balotelli and it hasn't so far worked out. That's 16m of 116m spent where it looks like we've spent poorly....I can handle that. It's hardly evidence of gross mismanagement. We're sitting behind Arsenal on goal difference and a point above Man Utd. Considering the draw and that Sturridge has barely played it's not all that bad.

[Twelfth Man]

That OP, particularly the passionate swearing brought a smile to my face. Hard to disagree with most of the points raised by Timbo. Feels like a golden opportunity wasted with wrong acquisitions in the transfer market that don't synergise with the breathtaking style of play we saw last season. FGS's desire not to overspend, insistence on players with resell value, commendable at one level, but feels like we fucked up on an ideal opportunity to bring the plan forward and cement a place where we belong (it is early days however and I still think we'll come good, but we should be challenging not hoping for a CL spot). Not all down to the transfer committee, Rodgers, or FSG though, no doubt Sanchez would have been the ideal replacement, for Luis. It is the Daniel contingency plan or lack of that is more bothersome. Late in the day they gambled, has not worked so far, Mario clearly cannot lead the line and play as a lone striker, in the way, both Danny and Luis could, when one was injured and the other banned. It is a cock-up, a bit like a couple of seasons ago when FSG gambled on having just one striker prior to the arrival of Sturridge. We'll get by, or muddle through. Not how a club of our stature should be run, on a wish and a prayer.

[Upinsmoke]

Some people have the hindsight to be more rational than others. Some just can't control there impulse and use RAWK as an outlet for there frustration and to vent. I know that's not the site's purpose but it'd be boring if we all agreed everything would be fine and dandy and I think after the dust has settled those users who do fly off the handle appreciate the post match threads.

Why are people upset so much this season? Because we came so close last, because we knew that despite losing Luis we thought we'd be playing better than we have, because of the oversights in the transfer market, because our CL return hasn't been what we wanted or dreamed of. Because of the high of last season, the absolute europhic high every weekend like LFC was our drug, better than it's ever been for alot of young folk, to then get the kind of come down that we've had this season.

[Hij]

Internet forums have a lot to answer for. I think the problem when any team is going through a bad patch is that there can be a lot of vitriol towards the player and manager on sites like this and ultimately, it's great to criticise as we can all do it, but ultimately it doesn't change anything either. Of course constructive criticism should be a bastion of a site like this as that's what it's all about, picking the bones of everything that is Liverpool FC through good times and bad.

I'm just glad that we have three days per game at the moment as it can be very droll and depressing to just read constant lamenting of anything that could be considered a target while whenever challenged saying 'Well I'm entitled to my opinion'. I guess it's the same on both 'sides' with some people that are too positive, but ultimately unless the manager gets sacked or someone has him stored in their phone book criticism on here is just a venting of frustrations rather than anything constructive (bar the round tables).

As SP said, far too often some of the criticisms that are leveled at the team and especially just after a match, are often way too disrespectful and just overly insulting.

[the 92A]

It seems to me more about wanting to moderate the tone of the forum than any attempt to change the attitudes of fans, which would be pissing in the wind. There are posters who only ever come onto RAWK to have a moan. And that's not what RAWK is meant to be. There are plenty of other, unmoderated forums where anything goes. What tends to happen in those is not particularly interesting reading, it descends rapidly into childish name-calling, with everyone certain of his opinion and utterly convinced that everyone else in the discussion is a complete idiot.

Been there, done it. Lit the flames, called people stupid, got very angry, lost a bit of sleep.

What RAWK seems to aspire to is a more measured, intelligent look at the game. Somewhere tactics isn't a dirty word, somewhere you can talk about football in a way that would just never occur to the tabloid-hungry masses. And part of that ethos is the idea that RAWK is for Liverpool supporters, and that supporters first and foremost support, in action and in word, the club, the team, the management and the players.


For some, that's a natural idea, and it can lead to very good conversations, for others, the line between constructive criticism and pointless moaning is more of a grey area. Some mods might leap onto a post that is smart and well thought out simply because it has a negative connotation (although in my years on here I personally have never seen than happen once) and some posters might feel that their opinions are valid and they are being drowned out because they don't really see how they come across (I do see a lot of that)

There's a balance to be struck between navel-gazing, fiddling while Rome burns, unblinking and uncritical positivity and raging blind destructive fury. Most of the time, that leaves a huge amount of fertile territory for us to play about in. And that's how I've learned a lot about the game, about the club, about the city I live in, about people's lives, about crap jokes. But when people feel things aren't going well, panic can set in, everyone wants to have a say, everyone knows how to solve the problems, and no-one wants to listen or, more accurately, read what others think.

Like many, I avoid the place after a bad result. Recently, I even avoid it after a good result if it hasn't been a particularly pretty one. It does nothing for me to read all the angry words, words that typically shout the loudest when they have least to say, voices that seem to rise above the crowd more through persistance than perceptive observations.

I have nothing but respect for the mods, although I have often disagreed with some of them as posters, it's not a job I'd want in a million years. But they do a pretty good job of it. This is still the best football forum I know of, by a very long distance.

Agree with most of that post and it's saved me posting some similar thoughts. Thank you Nessy.
The backdrop to some of the problems encountered at the moment is not some internal problem about the way the site is run but a massive big fact:


Liverpool aren't doing very well at the moment after a season where we nearly won the Premiership.


A few weeks ago this lead to the Liverpool board being swamped by moaning one liners that reeked of the sort entitlement that seems to have infected the game recently, the boards became unreadble and I know I certainly couldn't be arsed reading them and imagine it was the case with the other mods. This lead to the Liverpool Forum being unmoderated at times and quickly in danger of degenerating into the sort of anything goes football chat sites that are the equivalent of the comments section of You Tube. We had a choice, let the site go to the dogs and lose some of our longstanding posters or counteract some of the people who think that a forum gives them the licence to engage in boring repetitive circular arguments that bore the arse of anyone unfourtunate to read them.


When the team is doing well it's easy but when things go wrong there is a balance between the traditions that have become part of the club, giving the manager time, not scapegoating, supporting players when they are obviously struggling, seeing the bigger picture, realising the nature of football often means it's darkest just before the dawn and not outlawing sensible reasoned criticism that may have a point. I think we are getting the balance reasonably well at the moment but like any dynamic situation the balance point is not always static. I think it's easy at times to have a go at the mods when the reality is we our trying to balnce real differences that occur amongst supporters and keep the site readable. A Forum by it's nature includes many differing posters and the quality that comes when you have full editorial control isn't as strong but we aim to keep the site relevant and readable.

[24/7]

Constructed properly???  You can't even discuss a player in a thread anymore. We are shocking at the minute and have players under performing so player threads are bound to be negative. What do the Mods do?? Shut them as they don't like what's said. The realty is the negative stuff is nearer the reality that the pie in the sky stuff that everything is rosy.

There's so much rabid kneejerking in this post I am surprised you haven't been quarantined.

We don't like HOW things are being said. It's not rocket science. Do you really not GET that? If we allowed things to carry on the way they were then we may as well all fucking sell out and become just like any other online forum. SP said it best about that kind of 'debate' belonging on Twatter. We've been consistently consistent in our appeals for reasoned, well-structured debate on the issues that concern us as supporters of a club we all love.

(Perhaps somewhat ironically, this is one of the much, much better threads on this kind of emotional outcry - I trust it will remain such - I just couldn't let your post go by without responding to it.)

So quit with the hyperbole - nobody, especially not "the mods" wants to paint a picture about everything being rosy cos it sure as shit isn't. HOW we post about such things though is true test of our character. Understood? Cheers!

[Funky_Gibbons]

Given we're being investigated for FFP violations. Was Sanchez ever a realistic option?

We were seemingly in negotiations with him over wages so it must have been fairly well advanced and fee's agreed etc.

The club has failed to land any of its 'big' targets over the last few years, we have lost out on the likes of Mkhitryan, Willian, Sanchez, Costa, Salah and even Valdes recently. It seems we're either not an attractive proposition to these players at the moment or we're are not offering packages comparable to our competitors or we're trying do negotiate the transfer fee on the cheap. Certainly FFP cannot be ignored though.

As PSG and City have proved FFP is bollocks.  Until they day that they actually get banned its pointless.  What's a fine to multi billionaire owners?

It isn't bollocks though is it. We do not have owners who will pump in the kind of money PSG and City will. A massive fine would hit us hard.

[telekon]

Like many, I avoid the place after a bad result. Recently, I even avoid it after a good result if it hasn't been a particularly pretty one. It does nothing for me to read all the angry words, words that typically shout the loudest when they have least to say, voices that seem to rise above the crowd more through persistence than perceptive observations.

In a nutshell.

That's what it boils down to, criticizing but at least with the basic sense of decency. If you want to get some rage out of your system, go punch a boxing ball or go for a run, whatever - don't come on here to insult the club. Nobody wants to read it.

[The 5th Benitle]

...whether it be done rationally, irrationally, quietly or loudly?

It never has. Next question?

It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that some of RAWK's moderators and a swathe of both long standing and new posters seem to carry the notion that any overt criticism of the club, manager, management, owners, players etc etc is taboo; that those doing the complaining are displaying some sort of lack of loyalty; that sections of the media may latch onto it and...well... say nasty things about our club based upon what they read.   

Where the hell did this ridiculous notion come from?

Nowhere, because it isn't true. Your imagination.


All we ask is that those criticisingly do so with associated explanation, are constructive and do not resort to abuse. We also ask that those who are unremittingly positive add explanation as to why.


We don't allow abuse of players or managers, sure. That's hardly a bad thing though is it. Abuse and criticism are, or at least should be very separate things and I think you're confusing the two.


Your point about the media is miles off the mark too, we are and always have been a totally independent website and don't pander to journalists. Posts that might land us in legal trouble might be deleted, sure, but apart from that nothing is done with the media or anyone else in mind.

Honestly mate, you're a fantastic poster and a huge asset to the site,but this just comes across as if you're having a dig and ignoring how difficult it actually is for a small team of volunteers to moderate a huge website with posters from all over the globe and with very different opinions. I would have thought you might admire our stance on excessive criticism and negativity, but clearly not.

[The 5th Benitle]

You can't even discuss a player in a thread anymore. We are shocking at the minute and have players under performing so player threads are bound to be negative. What do the Mods do?? Shut them as they don't like what's said. The realty is the negative stuff is nearer the reality that the pie in the sky stuff that everything is rosy.

This is so ridiculous it's bordering on the bizarre.
Of course you can discuss players.
We stopped individual threads because they were completely full of circular arguments, bickering, handbagging, abuse and were basically unreadable.

If you want to discuss Jordan Henderson, you're perfectly able to do so in the midfield thread for example.

As for the comment about the mods not liking the discussion? Bullshit. We're all different people with different views on players. You act like we're all fucking robots. We're not.

[Twelfth Man]

I quite enjoy passionate criticism post-game, as long as there's a point to the rant, personally, I'd encourage more of that type of thing. I tend to take those types of posts with a pinch of salt. I had a little go at Mario after the Hull match, the first in a long-time. On reflection, I might have been a tad harsh in my critique of him, and the way he is being deployed but I'd like to think I came up with some sound reasoning. I've been trying hard to avoid post-match threads in recent times after a poor result. But Saturday, I must admit felt good, nowt like a good moan. Love it. I pity fans of cheats like CFC, City and the fascists Real who are deprived of a good cathartic bitching.