Author Topic: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?  (Read 10406 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« on: March 21, 2005, 10:14:45 am »
Who is the king of British comedy? Charlie Chaplin –– British-born, and arguably as famous as any comedian that ever lived? Bob Hope, another Brit who found fame in America? The anarchy of John Cleese in his Python and Fawlty Towers days? Or current favourites, Ricky Gervais or Peter Kay?

   Or is it David "We didn't get enough protection from the referee" Moyes? Ever heard anything funnier? It was like American soldiers in Vietnam complaining that the locals were hitting them with bamboo leaves.

   Moyes' entire post-match gripe was about how it was just three minutes of injury time, and that then –– horror of all horrors –– the referee compounded this by blowing his whistle after three minutes. Really, David?

   Such is life. We could gripe too, as the first half had just two minutes of injury time –– I didn't see Moyes complaining then, given 30 seconds should be added for each goal, and 30 seconds for each substitution. The eagle-eyed will already have totted two-and-a-half minutes there already, let alone the time added from when the watch should have been stopped while four of our players received treatment. What is it with miserable Scots and their obsession with timekeeping?

   While Baros was sent off for merely hanging a foot in the air –– let's face it, he didn't jump in, leave the ground or make any kind of jabbing movement –– I remain staggered at how Tony Hibbert (who was later yellow carded) escaped without even a booking for his over-the-ball lunge at Luis Garcia's shin when he had both feet off the ground. That's a straight red. Even then the Everton players accused the little Spaniard of diving. It just makes the victory all the more sweet –– that the ref didn't help us at all, but that they were the ones moaning about him.

   The list goes on. David Weir escaped a definite second yellow for pulling Baros back when he was through on goal. Had Milan gone down, as others would have, Weir was off. The ref was still wrong to not go back and award the card. As it was, Weir was then allowed to kick Baros into the Main Stand, and still not get that second booking. Baros, who gets all sorts of shit kicked out of him in every game, was then red-carded for his first bad tackle of the season.

   Baros' suspension means he can be kept fresh for the two Juventus games (small consolation), but Morientes –– who would then naturally lead the line in the league –– remains a doubt with a thigh strain. (Perhaps sustained from that wonder strike). No wonder Benitez –– an attacking player in his day –– was considering dusting down the boots. We could be without Baros and Morientes, as well as Cissé, Sinama-Pongolle and Mellor in the coming weeks: our entire catalogue of out-and-out strikers.

   Baros' movement against Everton was superb, as he ran into the channels to draw the Everton defenders apart. His work rate remains phenomenal, and his all-round game was superb. It's just in front of goal where his confidence is lacking. Just as Owen regularly did (and, of course, all strikers do), he's having that patch where nothing will go in.
   
   So it's a good job that goals are coming from other areas.

   Luis Garcia now has nine goals from open play. Has more than adequately replaced Danny Murphy, who scored ten and 12 in his best two seasons, but with the aid of penalties and free-kicks, something at which he really excelled. Luis Garcia gets into the box more, to score poacher's goals, without ever appearing to be that kind of player. It's no wonder he's been called up to the Spanish national team. He had a difficult patch with injury and the birth of his child, but few skillful imports have settled so successfully so quickly. He works hard, runs all day, but of course he'll always be knocked off the ball on occasion –– let's be realistic, he doesn't have Jan Molby's build.  A ten-ton truck would have come off second best from a 50-50 shoulder barge with the Dane.

   Steven Gerrard now has ten from "open" play, although I use the inverted commas as I think that's four from indirect free kicks rolled to him. He'd score even more if someone else took the corners –– in his previous best season with goals, when he got ten in 2001, he scored three or four by getting on the end of Gary Mac's crosses.

   Riise has eight goals, despite long periods at left back. In theory, Harry Kewell is another who can add lots of goals from midfield. But it clearly remains theory for the time being. I've not given up on him, as I want to see a fit and sharp Kewell in a red shirt before judging him too harshly –– although next season will surely be make-or-break for the Aussie. (And despite all the heroics from midfield, no one has yet matched Kewell's 11 goals from last season –– and that despite Kewell being poor from December 2003 onwards).

   That midfield, with Alonso's extra creativity added in place of Hamann, has the goals  and creativity for a title challenge next season –– or to at least get closer. Of course, not a day goes by without speculation which needs no explanation, where one member of that midfield might be playing elsewhere.     

   Suffice to say it was great to see Gerrard back to his marauding best, influencing the game at both ends of the pitch and putting in some bone-shaking tackles. It was a timely reminder: indisputable evidence of how much the club still means to him. Perhaps to avoid an accusal of a being a 'badge kisser' he decided to instead heartily bite the liverbird –– a love bite? Maybe this is a new trend, where full digestion of the club crest becomes the only way to prove your affection and affinity? Time will tell.

   The most impressive thing about yesterday was how players not usually associated with getting stuck in were charging about. Also, while our wretched luck with injury continues, it was great to see all three subs –– all of whom have legions of detractors –– quickly assimilating into the pace of the game, and ended up among our best performers.

   Several weeks ago I risked ridicule by praising Nunez. While I won't pretend that after yesterday's great showing he's done anything near enough to merit talk of him being a definite answer to anyone's prayers, it did at least showcase why Rafa bought him: he just needs to take some confidence from it, and do it more often.

   Now he is fit he is proving that he has a good turn of pace; no little skill (while not possessing a bag of tricks like Luis Garcia); strength; that he is a good header of the ball; and he is not afraid to get stuck in. I had seen qualities I liked –– and lots of different qualities at that –– in every display of his, even those games where, overall, he was extremely poor. I could see the sparks of something positive. A good cross here; a great header there; a change of pace as he got fitter; a clever give-and-go; a willingness to get stuck in. It was just a question of putting it all together. A Mersey derby is as good a place as any to start winning the fans over. Now he needs to build on it.

   Same with Pellegrino. The only doubt when he arrived was 'is he past his best?' Otherwise his pedigree was amazing: league titles with three different clubs, including Barcelona and Valencia. As a slow player whose game is all about thought, he is one of those who, in theory, should age well. Instant condemnations, as with Nunez, were made about a player who was lacking match fitness when being thrown in halfway through the season. That is about as tough as it gets for a player: new country, not fully fit, and adjusting to the pace of the English game.

   It's like a marathon runner who is physically fit, and free from injury, and who has done a little training, but who hasn't done any long distance running before entering the New York marathon. They might get around the course, but their performance will be severely impaired, and there will be no sprint finish left in the tank. Nunez and Pellegrino were both in need of getting matches under their belts, and had the disadvantage of baptisms of fire in the English game when the opposition was 'up and running'. If you all start at the same time in August, you get your match fitness in the first few games –– it's the same for every team's players.

   I don't see the comparisons between Henchoz and Pellegrino, which were constantly made as a way to suggest there was no need to swap the Swiss with the Argentine. Watch how much organizing Pelle does –– it's light years ahead of anything Henchoz, who was a mere 'reactor', ever offered. Henchoz wanted only to defend the edge of the area (which he did extremely well) and go about his own business. Just as Rafa feels Carra is at least the equal of Roberto Ayala, he always insisted Pelle was the organizer at Valencia –– and as such, he's looking to a similar partnership at Liverpool. In the last three league games –– all of which Pelle has started –– we've limited the opposition to very few shots at goal. That may be a coincidence, or it may not.

   Pellegrino isn't much different from Sami in many respects –– just far more vocal, with the downside of being slightly weaker in the air. Both read the game very well, but it seems clear that Pellegrino helps out his colleagues with more with advice and instruction. Pellegrino is making it tough for Rafa, but Sami will of course play in the Champions League, with Pelle ineligible.

   Pelle has to be given the one year extension. It showed how great his attitude that he asked to first prove he deserved it when offered it on arrival in January. He has the kind of quality and experience we need, even if only as cover –– he's certainly not going to be any kind of long term solution. (Although Benitez won the league and Uefa Cup last season with a 39-year-old left back). The absence of Sami Hyypia from any starting XI was always a major worry, but that has proved unfounded in the last two games with a similar player able to step in. While Traore –– who would have been the reserve centre back –– has bags of pace, I already feel much safer with Pelle at centre half. Sometimes you have to back the tortoise over the hare.

   Benitez's replacement at Valencia –– Claudio Ranieri –– instantly dispatched Pelle to the reserves and made him train with the youth team. He was not part of his plans. Valencia were awful, with the Italian being sacked earlier this year. I doubt it was down to Pellegrino's absence, but at least the Argentine could say that when he was a regular they were a great side, and that he was not in any way culpable for the club's decline. Now he is enjoying his football again, and has discovered what it's like to win a Merseyside derby.
   
   A first Anfield victory in the derby in five years: yet more proof that while Houllier's Reds were better away from home, Benitez's are making Anfield more of a fortress. Get the walking wounded fit again, and next season we can expect to be much more competitive in all games.

   In the meantime, Everton are now well within Rafa's sights, and they are blowing hard like that marathon runner I mentioned earlier –– in their case, they treated the first half of the season more like a sprint, and now their legs are turning to jelly. While all teams would want the points in the bag, most players admit that it's easier to chase than be chased –– especially when the team in front are rapidly losing their bottle and composure, and apparently running in quicksand.

   This result could have the same effect as when Gary Mac's 93rd-minute winner at Goodison Park in 2001 saw the side find resolve and inner belief, and led to the amazing run-in which saw the treble completed, and a Champions League spot secured.

   Here's hoping.

© Paul Tomkins 2005

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« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 10:31:03 am by Paul Tomkins »

Offline JP!

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 10:35:57 am »
As always excellent.
I don't agree, he'd go to Legoland. Bye.

Offline God's Left Peg

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2005, 10:43:50 am »
...and eternally optimistic.

Nice one.
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Offline Red Lozza

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2005, 10:51:47 am »
Great read and I agree totally about Nunez. When he came on yesterday he gave us something we badly lacked against Blackburn, and that was genuine width down the right wing.

It's been hardly mentioned in the post-match analysis, but it was Nunez who ultimately set up our first goal by making an excellent run down the right and delivering a quality ball into the edge of the area after he showed lovely skill in turning the defender. That won us the free-kick which Gerrard scored from.

And Pellegrino suggested he could be more than just a fill-in for us at centre half. The guy oozes class and I think it's telling that Rafa praised his leadership skills - we need a few more vocal players out there.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 10:52:10 am »
a very good read. Thanks

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 10:54:11 am »
Great victory, but what was the long term cost.
I posted the question in general just before this hit the front.
We may well have won the battle yesterday but how do you continue the war with only half your soldiers.

I'm convinced Moyes yesterday set his stall out to damage our run in not win the game
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Offline lurker

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 11:07:10 am »
Quote
I'm convinced Moyes yesterday set his stall out to damage our run in not win the game

If so, I think he could have made a huge blunder! I think that a bit of adversity wouldn't go amiss for this team, focus the mind a bit. Our spirit yesterday was fantastic. For a team like Everton who've build a reputation this season of working hard for each other, we showed them up yesterday big-time!

Assuming Garcia is okay for the Bolton game, I wouldn't be surprised to see him and Nunez played up front - Nunez would offer an aerial threat and a bit of strength up there. Having said that, I'm not sure then who'd play right-mid, maybe throw Potter in?

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 11:11:27 am »
And about Moyes whinging about the injury time - Everton have made a habit this season of scoring late, late goals to either win a match 1-0 or pick up a point by drawing 1-1. But that didn't happen yesterday and didn't happen against Blackburn last week either.... I think it's another strand of confidence that's evaporated for them and that's a good sign for us.

Offline mulfella

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2005, 11:21:47 am »
He's a perfect manager for them. He's got the small club chip on his shoulder.

Never misses an opportunity to point out how plucky they are against the big bullies and how they get no help.

He had a real pop at dudek for taking his time at goal kicks (Never catch Martyn doing that?) and I heard that he told the police to throw the fan out who had held on to the ball! Actions of a desperate man.

He's already mentioned Heysel about 3 times this season, he'd better keep his mouth shut now.

Now we've got a manager with some dignity......
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Offline maxr

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2005, 11:23:18 am »

Thanks for another excellent article, Paul.  The vocal side of Pellegrino was very noticeable and, as we were under the cosh at times (in terms of being hamstrung by injuries and the sending off) was a welcome addition.  I liked the sight at corners (on either end) of seeing both he and Carra bellowing instructions and directions out to the players.

In all, he played another very good game and while his future in terms of playing for us will obviously be limited by age I think he showed himself once again to be a good acquisition.  That said, when I found Sami was fit and available, I did think the decision a ballsy one from Benitez but it still paid off.

Well done to Nunez, too, as many of you have also said: when he came on he settled in very well and I particularly liked some of his passing and drive.  And as for little Garcia, brave chap - despite hobbling, he still made some telling interventions in the second half.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 11:34:53 am »
PT:

has Le Tallec been turning out regularly for the rezzies?

because he looks likely to get his chance in the first eleven against Bolton...

we need another reserve match report from AdamS... ;D
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2005, 11:45:27 am »
Le Tallec has scored in a couple of reserve games. But he's not an out-and-out striker, more a second striker. But he could adapt as the lone striker, as he's tall and can hold the ball up for the midfield to join.

Otherwise Sami back as centre forward?!  ;D

Offline mercury

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2005, 11:47:16 am »
yeah, really sweet victory, especially with the way they played and unashamelly Fergusonic comments of Moyes  ;D

the nicest thing yesterday was everyone showed up, including Gerrard and Igor (long may it continue!!!)   I always like Luis Garcia and yesterday's performance and bravery has done it no harm.  Nunez at long last show he's no slouch, as one said on the main forum he's nothing flash or might not hold down a starting place but can do a job for us when asked.   On Pelle one other slight edge over Sami is that he is a bit more cynical, can add tougher.  However, neither convince me as the long term solution to partner Carra.

Now....the only negative (apart from the injuries which thank God for the international break that gives us some breathing space)

I am still livid with Baros.  Could forgive his misses but not the fact that he got himself dismissed.  yeah, the referee could dismiss a few blue shirts but did not, this however does not detract from the fact that it was a straight red for Baros which nearly put the match in jeopardy and could be for the remaining of the season.  This is a hard lesson he could not get away with and got to learn well.

Offline Garcia10

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2005, 11:53:19 am »
excellent post
great read and a perfect start to my week

now lets keep up the spirit and play with the desire we showed yesterday

YNWA

Offline HIRA

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2005, 11:53:55 am »
I enjoyed that article, it was optimistic, but the difference is that now it is reasonable to be optimistic because we were great yesterday.

I do agree that the cost of the victory was high, it remains to be seen if it will prove even more costly in the future games where we find ourselves possibly down to our bare bones.
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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2005, 11:55:45 am »
Nice one Paul -  and i also agree on Nunez.

I said earlier in the season to judge him come easter - and he's now showing that he's a good, solid player.  First choice?  Wouldn't have thought so with our full team fit, but a fine player to have on the bench - and how often are our full team fit.

And while I'll call Baros for his two cocked-up one-on-ones, it's good to see someone else giving him the benefit of the doubt on the tackle.  I don't think he meant it, and those fouls always look terrible in slow-mo, but a split-second earlier would have seen him charge the ball down.  Definite yellow, but I don't think it deserved a red - and wouldn't have thought so if the roles had been reversed and it'd have been stubbs on Baros.

Rafa and Gerrard's reaction don't look like they were giving him the benefit of the doubt mind...
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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2005, 11:58:30 am »
Great posting.  Lots of good points.  I was proud of all our players yesterday, they got stuck in and they all looked like they knew what a derby was about.  Had Carr/Gerrard had a word ?  That was an unbelievably flattering score line for Everton. 

These injuries may be a blessing in that most of the players will not now play 2 international games in the period between yesterday and the Bolton game.  That of course assumes they are 10 day injuries and not 3 weeks.  Garcia was great in the first half and showed courage and determination in coming out in the second.  Nunez played well (as he did in Cardiff) and we are now seeing why Rafa bought him. 

Carragher and Pelle looked a great pairing and after being one of those on Carraghers back for being 'solid but limited in ability' 2 or 3 years ago he has shoved those word right where the sun doesn't shine and I am happy to hold my hands up and say he is definitely a CLASS act.  MOM yesterday in my opinion.
He is without doubt our player of the season.  How great it is to be proved wrong. 

Totally agree about Garcia V Murphy comment.  Getting rid of Murphy was one of the best pieces of business done during the summer. 

Lets hope yesterdays battling performance, and lets not forget, some decent football for a derby match builds some more spirit amongst the players who must feel they are due some breaks this season.  I cannot think of us getting much luck at all this season but I think with a little we should catch Everton now and spend the summer looking forward to next season.... lets hope Rafa stays.  Its not going to be a quick fix, we all knew that but yesterday and in Laverkusen we saw quality performances with guts, determination and no little skill and guile.  Totally different games but we won them both. We simply need to eradicate the sterile performances against Blackburn or at least make them rare events.  We are improving and have this season shown some class at times (Arsenal and Chelsea at home).  Despite our troubles this season I have still enjoyed this season more than the last one under GH.





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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2005, 12:03:45 pm »
Great article PT, got really worried when i saw sami warming up when warnock was about to come off, had visions of jamie being shipped out to leftback and hyypia joining Pelle at centre, it shows that Rafa learns from his mistakes and that is a priceless quality in a manager.
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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2005, 12:09:56 pm »
Great article PT, got really worried when i saw sami warming up when warnock was about to come off, had visions of jamie being shipped out to leftback and hyypia joining Pelle at centre, it shows that Rafa learns from his mistakes and that is a priceless quality in a manager.

Very true, had the same worries myself - but like other mistakes Rafa has made this year - he only makes them once.
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Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2005, 12:17:03 pm »
Otherwise Sami back as centre forward?!  ;D

"Many a truth was said in jest"

Big strong forward
Able to hold the ball until support comes

Is he, or would he be any worse than Big Dunc ?

you think I'm joking dont yer ?
Yes your right, anyone with half a brain knows Pelle would be better up front ;)

;D
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 12:19:11 pm by WOOLTONIAN »
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2005, 12:44:40 pm »
Well, Sami was a midfielder during his early years, and even played there in Holland. I was joking, but it's not the *worst* idea. With Pelle, maybe it's an idea for the end of games - although hopefully we wouldn't start punting like Everton did when Drunken came on.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2005, 12:51:30 pm »
I can just see it now
Sammi punting the ball 60 yards forward and Pelle (not knowing any better) humping it 60 yards back.
be like watching tennis at wimbledon ;D
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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2005, 01:20:09 pm »
Laughed at Moyes rant over injury time etc, but to be fair he did also say that Liverpool were excellent.  He was obviously going to grasp at something but we can't spend too much time chuckling at him when they are still in the driving seat.

As he said, at this stage of the season if he were offered a 4pt gap after a derby match, he would take it.  So would Rafa.  Our only hope is their poor recent form.

Can't agree with your assessment of Baros' tackle --- ironically, almost 'Moyesesque'. ;)  Definite red for me, although several of their players got off lightly perhaps.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Another player who deserves a bit of credit is Biscan who had a steady game and also looked to create.  Hamann wasn't really missed when he went off which says a lot.  He probably replaced Didi in a similar way you highlighted Pelle deputising for Hyypia. :wave
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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2005, 04:12:49 pm »
Moyes' entire post-match gripe was about how it was just three minutes of injury time, and that then –– horror of all horrors –– the referee compounded this by blowing his whistle after three minutes. Really, David?


It seems that Moyes is using WMDs (weapons of mass distraction) to avert attention away from his sides rather torrid display. It was evident that Moyes decided to come to Anfield and do a 'Blackburn'. He was at the game on Wednesday night and was probably delighted with what he saw - a Liverpool side seemingly incapable of breaking down a bunch of guiless hackers. This was to prove an inaccurate assessment of Liverpool's abilities. We took the game to them from the first whistle and Everton weren't really in it.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2005, 05:22:12 pm »
As always an eloquant, sensible, correct read.
No "Moyes is wanker", " i hate the blue shites" etc etc
Paul,  i look forward to your articles and would put them up there with some of Alan Edges work.

Any chance of a signed copy of your book!! ;D

Offline BazC

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2005, 05:34:28 pm »
good read.
“This place will become a bastion of invincibility and you are very lucky young man to be here. They will all come here and be beaten son”

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2005, 05:38:22 pm »
Paul,  i look forward to your articles and would put them up there with some of Alan Edges work.

Any chance of a signed copy of your book!! ;D


What, Alan Edge signing my book?   ???

 ;)

Offline Darren Page1

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2005, 05:40:51 pm »

What, Alan Edge signing my book?   ???

 ;)

no you signing your book and giving me it free!!!!!!

Offline Dermot

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2005, 05:57:23 pm »
Paul, You legend. Top-Class :thumbup
The cheek of that mon, deserves a shlap

Offline God's Left Peg

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2005, 06:01:18 pm »
TonyW  - don't think you were the only one regarding past opinions of Carragher. The thing is he's played up to 5 different positions in a Liverpool shirt, I think for England u-21s he almost always featured in midfield. As a full-back he was competent, no he was probably better than that. But this season he's made the CB spot his own, he seems mature and organised, he's composed on the ball (looks better going forward through the middle of the pitch than down the flanks - don't know how that works!) and fucking hell he has a spot-on attitude. I fucking love the way he wears the badge. He's fucking awesome. Fucking hell my language is getting worse.
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life."

Offline Thommo's Beak

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2005, 06:14:53 pm »
  "While Baros was sent off for merely hanging a foot in the air –– let's face it, he didn't jump in, leave the ground or make any kind of jabbing movement –– I remain staggered at how Tony Hibbert (who was later yellow carded) escaped without even a booking for his over-the-ball lunge at Luis Garcia's shin when he had both feet off the ground. That's a straight red. Even then the Everton players accused the little Spaniard of diving. It just makes the victory all the more sweet –– that the ref didn't help us at all, but that they were the ones moaning about him."

I'll have to disagree with your assesment there, Baros deserved his sending off - end off. I do agree with the other points about the referee's consistency.
A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Liverpool

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2005, 06:26:15 pm »
I still maintain Baros merely left his foot in, hanging in the air. It wasn't a stamp. It may have been worthy of a red card, but I didn't see it as a 'horror' tackle, in the way other people did.

Hibbert's tackle was far worse, IMO. As was Lee Hendrie's for Villa, which didn't even result in a booking - where he launched two-footed off the ground.


Offline Darren Page1

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2005, 06:34:42 pm »
Defo agree that the one on Garcia in the first half which led to the goal was worse and had more chance of breaking a leg

Offline Thommo's Beak

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2005, 06:44:02 pm »
I'm not trying to get an argument going here as there is no point. All I was conscious of when reading the article is that it may seem to none Liverpool fans reading it that you're a typical 'blind' fan and I've never thought that from reading all your articles this season.

I suppose you're allowed the odd off-day!  ;)

Any tackle that is studs-up and lands on the leg is a horror tackle I think, so if Baros is going to go in like that he needs to win the ball or face the consequences. That's why I think Benitez is right to be pissed off because Milan should be experienced enough to know the implications of a full-blooded challenge like that.

A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Liverpool

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2005, 06:50:47 pm »
I'll admit it when I see horror tackles from Reds - seen a few from Gerrard over the years. I honestly never saw this as a bad one. Clearly enough people have, but I'm a little bemused by it - happy to admit I'm wrong, I just must have seen it differently. There was no 'weight' behind Baros' leg. I just feel I've seen far far worse, and I wouldn't have expected or demanded Stubbs to have been sent off it the tackle was reversed.

When Luis G was taken out by Hibbert, it wasn't a horror tackle - it was the English player kicking the foreigner.  When the foreigner (Baros) kicked the Englishman - Baros on Stubbs - it was somehow deemed far worse.

Luis Garcia is not a diver, and yet he had all the Everton players accusing him, and David Moyes doing so after the game. The replays show it was a nasty nasty tackle.

Anyway, stuff like this is all subjective anyway  :)

Offline Fitzy.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2005, 06:51:24 pm »
The tackle had no malice in it, Baros was simply a split second too slow and it resulted in a clumsy tackle. The ref had no option but I think the hysteria following the incident is rather over the top. I remember a couple of years ago when Gerrard almost snapped Villa's Boateng in two, I was sat just behind the tackle and I remember thinking that it wasn't malicious, just poorly executed - but that didn't stop the media frenzy that followed. Baros is currently suffering a similar hounding - unjustly in my mind.

Offline Fitzy.

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2005, 06:53:47 pm »
Anyway, stuff like this is all subjective anyway  :)

I think that statement can be attributed to virtually every thread on RAWK.  It's all about opinions.

Offline Darren Page1

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2005, 06:53:49 pm »
The tackle had no malice in it, Baros was simply a split second too slow and it resulted in a clumsy tackle. The ref had no option but I think the hysteria following the incident is rather over the top. I remember a couple of years ago when Gerrard almost snapped Villa's Boateng in two, I was sat just behind the tackle and I remember thinking that it wasn't malicious, just poorly executed - but that didn't stop the media frenzy that followed. Baros is currently suffering a similar hounding - unjustly in my mind.

Mine too

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2005, 07:23:48 pm »
I think that statement can be attributed to virtually every thread on RAWK.  It's all about opinions.


Indeed. It was just my way of saying both Thommo's Beak and myself had made our points, and were agreeing to differ - nothing more to say. The trouble is when people argue the same points for hours on end, and it just goes in circles...

 :rollseyes

Offline Tarmo

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Re: The Sweetest Derby Victory In Years?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2005, 07:24:19 pm »
Quote
/-/  Pellegrino helps out his colleagues with more with advice and instruction. Pellegrino is making it tough for Rafa, /-/

Yes, I agree with you, Paul. I watched the game and all the time Pelle talked and instructed, I liked it.

Quote
   Pelle has to be given the one year extension. It showed how great his attitude that he asked to first prove he deserved it when offered it on arrival in January. He has the kind of quality and experience we need, even if only as cover –– he's certainly not going to be any kind of long term solution.

Why not, an example, if he likes Merseyside and want to remain defender´s coach, why not? Of course if Rafa and board want to. So this is long term solution.

I think it was Houllier´s mistake to make the team very young, his team havent expierence, except Macca. I dont understand why Houllier didnt give Litmanen a chance, really I dont understand. But now I like the idea to have expierenced Mori and Pelle and Hamann. And now important games to come these players can play reasonable.

Well it is my shy commentary.