Author Topic: Baking in progress and preserving our values... what's the right club structure?  (Read 65979 times)

Offline KingKolo

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nobody's holding wenger accountable for his failures at the moment, and the arsenal fans are starting to demand that.
Sorry Roy, I didn't quite get the what you meant there.

Offline nocturnalvin

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Sorry Roy, I didn't quite get the what you meant there.

i would think Roy meant that Arsenal fans are demanding the board/ higher management to make Wenger accountable for on-the-pitch failures, because he has won shit in recent years. I would add that his constant whinging has made some Arsenal fans become embarassed too, from what i heard.

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yeah, sorry geoff, because delegation is important i think and it's better to enable your staff rather than dictate to and micromanage them. in wenger's case he definitely has that reputation - he works 16 hour days rather than letting other people do things on his behalf - but on this one i mean the fact he's become so wedded to his 'vision' that he refuses to buy two or three solid 'limited' pros who will battle in the areas they need - he won't compromise his own values to realise the club's values - namely the pursuit of silverware.

Offline nocturnalvin

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As I said in my analogy Roy, managers deserve total control if they provide a compelling vision for the club...with the board providing oversight over the major strategic decisions taken.  It works the same in corporations all over the world, a balancing act between the CEO who oversees day-to-day control and the Board which has to approve major strategic directions. 

Lets talk about the analogy for a moment. It was good, and i had further thoughts on it. Yet i couldnt figure if i agree or disagree with you. Not that this technicality matters anyway. :)

so now we move on to the structure issues. For this discussion, I suppose they are a few teams we can look at, and i should list Barcelona, Real, Arsenal, Man utd and ourselves.

Of the 5, at the moment, only Barcelona, Arsenal and MAn utd has an identity, in terms of the footballing philosophy they stick to.  Real MAdrid strangely lost its way despite having Arrigo Saachi upstairs. Or maybe we just have not seen the fruits of his efforts yet.

Barcelona is quite likely the most successful in terms of their production line. And also not doing too badly in their own league as well as in Europe. Much of it is down to Cruyff as most would say. I am not privy to the actual Ins and Outs, but surely it has nothing much to do with Riijkard (spelling) nor his predecessor.

So in this case, using the "CEO" role in your analogy, this CEO happens to be NOT the manager, but someone upstairs with a good footballing idea, a vision, with true appreciation of history of the club.

(sorry, i had wanted to write a long reply but losing my train of thoughts. )


Offline Gnurglan

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What we need is a structure that is independent of the manager. It takes a long time to build continuity. We can't have every manager put through his own ideas and change the club structure every 4-5 years.

The structure/club setup is the responsibility of the board. If they can't do it, they should seek help from someone who does. In our case, I don't think they have a clue, so help is needed.

We should AVOID building separate departments. It's the wrong starting point to say we should build an Academy that should do this or that.

Put in words, the tasks are quite simple.

- The 1st team's job is to win titles.
- The Reserves supply the 1st team with talented, well-trained and well-educated players.
- The rest of the teams train and develop talent with the purpose of breaking into the Reserves, or the team just above the current team. 

So what kind of skills should a 1st team player have? Or, if we choose, we could say what's the requirement for a player in the 1st team squad? The answer will determine what type of player we need to develop. Then we work our way backwards. It really is that simple. In business, this requirement would be called the voice of the customer.

Most likely, we need players who know the basics and how to perform them without hesitation.

If the board is interested in changing the setup, I'd recommend them to perform a value stream analysis. 

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Gnurglan

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So in this case, using the "CEO" role in your analogy, this CEO happens to be NOT the manager, but someone upstairs with a good footballing idea, a vision, with true appreciation of history of the club.


Of course. I'd go even further. I'd want to have a basic philosophy for how the club should play. The setup is too important to be left to one man, be it the CEO or the manager.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

royhendo

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great post this from juan loco, and one that he and redwood32 have debated in the past...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=234835.0

Offline Manila Kop

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Of course. I'd go even further. I'd want to have a basic philosophy for how the club should play. The setup is too important to be left to one man, be it the CEO or the manager.

That's an interesting point and I thought of it while reading this about Arsenal.  Highlighted the bits in bold which have particular resonance as a counterpoint to the way Rafa is building his team in Liverpool.  I'm tempted to go and look for similar pieces on Ferguson, but I don't want to enter the swamps of Mancland without a road map.

Quote from: The Arsenal Review
Is Arsenal's next 6 months crucial? Or is it the next month?
By Myles Palmer

I missed Sky's Sunday Supplement, where four hacks discuss the week's big football stories.  But I Sky+ed it, just in case.

Then a friend told me what was said about Arsenal, so I watched it.

Ian Ridley, of The Mail on Sunday, said Arsenal are torn between the past and the future.

He said, "Interesting times at Arsenal. I think the next six months on and off the field will define their history for the next five years."

He even said Wenger might be released from his contract.

"Wenger has 18 months left on his contract and he doesn’t walk out on contracts. But if Arsenal were to release him from a contract and get some compensation, that would be a different matter."

Brian Woolnough : "Why would they do that?"

Ian Ridley : "In case Wenger wants to go in the next six months, if he is really unhappy with the development, the direction of the football club.I think Arsene Wenger, at any time in the last five years, could have picked up the phone, or got an agent to pick up the phone, and said Id like the Real Madrid job. He would always be their No.1 target.

"But he’s built a dynasty, and he’s leaving a legacy at Arsenal and he will want that to remain intact. But he's lost David Dein, he lost allies on the board. There's been another boardroom coup, very unArsenal how it’s all leaked out, and Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith, who owns 16% of the shares has been ousted from the board and she’s come out and said how appallingly she’s been treated. That isn’t very Arsenal, this isn’t the dignified way they do it.

"And the club is torn between the past and the future. Whether to take new investment and compete with the other Big Three clubs. Or whether to retain their principles, developing a football club, matching income to expenditure, and doing things the right way, as they perceive it.

"Lady Nina now holds a pivotal place. It depends on what she does with her shares. If she wants to sell them to someone. Whether it's to Usmanov or Kroenke, neither of whom she seems especially fond of. But she did, apparently, envy David Dein for getting £75 million for his shares. Won't get that now in the current market. But whoever picks up those shares, if it triggers a hostile takeover, then we could be seeing a big, big change in the direction of Arsenal. One that Wenger may not like. That's why I say the next six months will decide an awful lot."

Ridley added this : "He's becoming - disillusioned is the wrong word-  concerned by this group of players. He had enormous faith in them and has defended them to the hilt. But they keep letting him down. He always says that, with a young player, you can chart the development, you can build the technique, but you never quite know till they’re thrown in, mentally, how they’re gonna react to the challenge of playing for a big club. And I think that's where he has been let down. And we've seen lots of temperamental flaws emerging within Arsenal over the last six months. If you look at the calendar year, they've got a pretty poor record in league football."

The News of the World's Rob Beasley said, “Wenger’s culpable to an extent. He had money to spend in the summer, he’s got money to spend now. We were with him on Friday and said : Are you scared to spend money? Are you scared to buy a big name player? Why won’t you go and buy two £20 million players with their experience and their talent, who could come in, bed into this team, and bring their experience and talent and transform this Arsenal side ? We can all see the potential of this team. But don’t you think you need two or three more players, established quality players who can take you on that quantum leap, right now?

"He said, 'Yes I do. I understand what you’re saying, I agree with what you’re saying. But you can't get players for £20 million these days.' I’m not sure he’s right in these credit crunch times. He’s got to bite the bullet and try and do something. On the Friday, in the actual press conference, he said : 'I’ve looked and looked and I don’t think for £20 million you can find somebody to do what I need them to do. They’re just not out there.' Which is a bit of an astonishing thing to say. And he also said, 'How much did Manchester United pay for Dimitar Berbatov? £30 million.' He’s probably got £40 million, maybe £50 million, to spend and he can see that he may not be able to get a player who can have that kind of impact. And that’s what he's worried about."

Personally, I'd agree with some of that. But I can't see Wenger ever going to Real Madrid now, except as a face-saving exit-strategy, having sent Arsenal into complete meltdown and leaving us with far too many young French and African players.

I reckon Arsenal could have new owners in May or June, although Usmanov has no plans to increase his stake right now. The biggest news of the weekend wasn't Adebayor's red card. It was that Danny Fiszman admitted he has been talking to Usmanov and has said, Come to more games, let's get to know each other a bit better.

I think Lady Nina has been a seller for a long time. That's why she was bought onto the board and into the lockdown.

It's tosh to say I've looked and looked and there's no good players available for £20 million. Beasley is right. That is astonishing and ridiculous. Each week, with the things he says, Wenger becomes more ridiculous. Each week a different fan asks me : Do you think he believes what he says or not? I have several stock answers to that question including (1) he's delusional (2) he's talking to his players in the media, not to the fans (3) he's trying to buy time and (4) he's the greatest spin-doctor in the history of organised sport.

His 26 scouts are all looking for kids. They mostly look in France and West Africa.

If he looked in Copenhagen he could have found Brede Hangeland, a 27-year old six foot five Norwegian.  Hangeland arrived last January and saved Fulham from relegation and is now the linchpin of the fourth-best defence in the Premier League  He is the centreback who volleyed that goal against Arsenal at Craven Cottage in August. But Wenger won't sign that sort of player because he doesn't scout that sort of player.

His scouting system, like his training and his style of play, is very narrow-minded and obsessional. His briefs are very specific. We don't know much about his scouts. But we know this  :  they won't find what he's not looking for.


If they looked in Hamburg, they'd have found Vincent Kompany, who would be perfect with Fabregas : six foot three, fast,skilful, good long passer, can also play centreback. He's 22 and has played 23 times for Belgium. Kompany fell out with Martin Jol and cost Man City an undisclosed fee that was said to be about £6 million.

Everton signed Marouane Fellaini from Standard Liege for an initial £4m, rising to £16 million. He is 21, six foot four, rugged and runs box-to-box. Fellaini has already scored three goals.

So it is tripe when Wenger says he's looked everywhere. That is an insult to supporters who pay £60 to watch Song every week. It's wrong to run London biggest football club this way. It's bonkers to give so much power to a manager. It's crazy to give Wenger the right of veto over a chief executive. When in football has that ever happened? Where in the entire history of professional football has the manager of a club had the power of veto over the appointment of a chief executive ? Only at a one-man club called Arsènal.

Since David Dein was sacked, Wenger has lost the plot. Yes, the financial constraints on him have been fierce and intimidating. That pressure to cut costs has helped him to lose the plot. All managers lose the plot. Name one who hasn't.


But there's still plenty to play for because Wenger has chosen a good season to have a mediocre team. He can't believe he's still only eight points off the lead.

As I said recently, every club has problems. Man United are jet-lagged, Tevez is fed up, the fans are not convinced by Berbatov. Liverpool are too rigid and miss Fernando Torres badly. Chelsea will miss John Terry for three games, after his silly tackle on Leon Osman last night's 0-0 draw at Goodison.

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=1154&cntnt01origid=30&cntnt01returnid=42
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline SMD

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Except it's now 10 points off the top, Fabregas is injured, we look like we've stepped up a gear while Chelsea are still hanging on through their injury crisis and United are still United.
Aston Villa have the momentum and honestly 4th is theirs to lose. Arsenal look a shadow of the team of the late 90s, early 00's and they still have to go to Anfield and Old Trafford.

If they don't sign someone in the transfer window who has experience and can make an immediate impact, their season is fucked.
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Offline kingjari

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Have you just lifted all that off an old edition of World Soccer Roy??, it was a good article.

A good start would to Have Rick Parry stop sticking his oar into the academy.

Bin off Piet Hamburg.

Have Rafa in charge of the First team, Academy and Scouting, the Traditional english model as WS called it.  Thats why Rafa came here, so let him do his job with out interferance from the clown shoe wearing tit.

By all means bring Kenny in, but in the Boardroom as a Director not as some babysitter between Kirby and Melwood.
« Last Edit: January 5, 2009, 12:46:28 pm by kingjari »
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Have you just lifted all that off an old edition of World Soccer Roy??, it was a good article.

A good start would to Have Rick Parry stop sticking his oar into the academy.

Bin off Piet Hamburg.

Have Rafa in charge of the First team, Academy and Scouting, the Traditional english model as WS called it.  Thats why Rafa came here, so let him do his job with out interferance from the clown shoe wearing tit.

By all means bring Kenny in, but in the Boardroom as a Director not as some babysitter between Kirby and Melwood.

Yeah mate - there was no sign of it on their website at the time so I just typed it.

Anyway, there was an article in the Observer Sport Monthly about the Aussies and their recent sporting decline that covers why they invested in their Insititutes of Sport and what it did for their results - makes you think about what's happened with our Academy really.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jan/04/australia-sport


Offline manifest

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 I'm tempted to go and look for similar pieces on Ferguson, but I don't want to enter the swamps of Mancland without a road map. DDT


Offline hobbes2007

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Fascinating topic. Don't get to spend a great deal of time on RAWK (damn you work, girlfriend and other offline commitments!) so only just come across it and had a chance to read. Thanks to the various contributors for some intelligent discussion.

A lot of good points here. What I would say is that it's too easy to look at the systems at other clubs and ascribe either success or failure to them, then accordingly decide what we should do. In reality each club situation is unique in terms of history, culture, politics and staff (both playing and otherwise). There's no one system fits all.

As for how we should set up, it's an interesting question and one that I will certainly be pondering. If you're lucky I won't share my conclusions with you!
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:) hopefully our luck's run out mate - I look forward to reading your stuff on the subject!

Offline Manila Kop

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Why stick to DDT if there's napalm on hand.  ;D
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

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Lets talk about the analogy for a moment. It was good, and i had further thoughts on it. Yet i couldnt figure if i agree or disagree with you. Not that this technicality matters anyway. :)

so now we move on to the structure issues. For this discussion, I suppose they are a few teams we can look at, and i should list Barcelona, Real, Arsenal, Man utd and ourselves.

Of the 5, at the moment, only Barcelona, Arsenal and MAn utd has an identity, in terms of the footballing philosophy they stick to.  Real MAdrid strangely lost its way despite having Arrigo Saachi upstairs. Or maybe we just have not seen the fruits of his efforts yet.

Barcelona is quite likely the most successful in terms of their production line. And also not doing too badly in their own league as well as in Europe. Much of it is down to Cruyff as most would say. I am not privy to the actual Ins and Outs, but surely it has nothing much to do with Riijkard (spelling) nor his predecessor.

So in this case, using the "CEO" role in your analogy, this CEO happens to be NOT the manager, but someone upstairs with a good footballing idea, a vision, with true appreciation of history of the club.

(sorry, i had wanted to write a long reply but losing my train of thoughts. )

I've been meaning to reply to your post nocturn, but I was still in my holiday haze then.  Now that I'm back at work, here goes...

The CEO analogy for Cruyff would be akin to Jack Welch's legacy in GE.  Cruyff was originally a successful player who represented Barcelona's post-Franco flowering, eventually taking over as manager of their 90s Dream Team and instituting several of the training methods and playing philosophies still apparent in the club today, from their cantera to their first team.  The emphasis on the passing game, technique, ball control, upholding Catalanism - there's thread that runs from Cruyff to Guardiola.  Because of his success as manager, the Barcelona board and shareholders have continued to demand the maintenance of his vision for the team.  Cruyff left a legacy carried on by his successors.  So in this sense he was the "founding CEO" of the "Barcelona way" as we know it today.

Jack Welch was also a lifetime employee at General Electric who rose up to become its Chief Executive Officer.  GE, like Barcelona, is an old and fabled institution; and Welch, like Cruyff, remade and renewed his company for continuing success in contemporary times.  Taking over GE in the 1980s, he detested its bureaucratic culture and old-line mentality brought over from its success since WW2.  Welch instituted several practices which we now know of as the "GE Way" - emphasizing Six Sigma for quality control of products, decreeing that GE had to be No. 1 or 2 in any industry it was in or else selling off entire divisions, and implementing the "rank-and-yank" system of rating employees where everyone is ranked and the bottom 10% is automatically fired.  This made GE the successful conglomerate we know today in everything from turbines to financing, and his successor as CEO Jeff Immelt and the GE board have continued with Welch's practices.

That is the kind of transformative, collaborative program I mean when I compare Rafa to being our CEO.  But does this make us a one-man club?  Is it dangerous to give a manager total control because there's a danger he'll move on?

There's a reason I mention the word "collaborative" - because every project like this, whether in the business or footballing world, cannot be undertaken successfully by one man alone.  I posted the Wenger article as an example of what happens when one man alone begins to dictate the whole project.  But arguably, Wenger was most successful when the Arsenal board was cohesive and united with David Dein working as Wenger's confidant and collaborator.  Dein has never been replaced, and Wenger is suffering for it.  Going back to our own history, Shankly had Peter Robinson liaising with the board, and the Boot Room Boys working as a cauldron to experiment and test ideas in tactics, training and player purchases.

Is Rafa going to turn into Wenger?  Unlikely.  We know Rafa detests Parry (for good reasons) and our owners are not going to provide the check and balance that they should.  But does Rafa insist on surrounding himself with yes-men, ignoring reality and Liverpool's traditions for his own narrow vision?  We all know the answer to this.  He's constantly worked on upgrading his backroom staff, bringing in Sammy Lee and Manuel Pellegrino to replace Pako Ayestaran and Alex Miller.  These choices say something about Rafa - picking ex-players who have links to the club, who are by all instances upstanding guys, who have played at the highest levels and have the authority and experience to provide a counterpoint to Rafa's own vision.  Does Rafa believe in his vision for Liverpool, in building a Red Machine to win all trophies before it?  Yes.  Does Rafa surround himself with good or great people who can support him in this project, people who have a blend of independence and experience?  Yes.

I think it's revealing that I can't even remember when I've heard of Arsene Wenger's assistant manager or backroom staff, unlike the rest of the Big Four whose managers have always made it a priority to appoint good No. 2s to complement their strengths, counter their weaknesses, and introduce new things or old traditions back to the club.  Sammy Lee, Ray Wilkins, Carlos Quieroz - you can see a thread running there.

Is it dangerous to give Rafa this much power because he'll move on?  Well, there are two answers to this.  The first is that if the project is successful, and indeed Rafa transforms Liverpool and projects us back to the heights of English and European football, why would he want to leave?  He was already being headhunted by Real Madrid at the height of last season's crisis with the owners; he could've left when the going was good.  But he stayed in fought, because Rafa is a winner and he knows he's close to achieving what he set out to do with Liverpool.  He's said, repeatedly, that his family are settled on Merseyside and that he wants to win many trophies with us.

The second answer going on from the first, is that if and when Rafa retires or decides to go back to manage Real or the Spanish NT - when his kids are grown up, when Montse tires of the cold weather, when Rafa's bones begin to ache in the winter - he will have left a legacy of success in Liverpool so strong and so enduring that it must, it should, produce another dynasty after he's left.  We survived when Bill Shankly left us, because he had transformed the club and left it in the excellent hands of Bob Paisley.  Maybe it will be Sammy Lee taking over the helm; maybe it will be Carra, or Stevie.  But they will be building on foundations that Rafa has laid, much like Immelt is continuing on from Welch or Guardiola is an extension of Cruyff.  That is why this is a "transformative" project - because once he's done with us, we're not going to consider going back and doing things over, changing systems and styles and personnel.  Because success, once built, perpetuates itself if we hold true to the core values it was built open.  More than any other club, we at Liverpool understand this.

Of course, there is a third answer - that Rafa leaves because he has failed at Liverpool.  In that case, Gnurglan's worst-case scenario kicks in and a new manager comes in and rips everything up, just like Rafa did with Houllier's playbook.  That patently means that our CEO's Rafalution was not fit for purpose; but really, what other options do we have?  What other person would you entrust to build his project with Liverpool?  Not Parry, not the owners, not Mourinho.  We need to stop being a club "in transition" - to keep holding back and hedging our bets.  We're not bloody Tottenham or Newcastle with a managerial merry-go-round.  If we feel that Rafa is our man, then we need to back him to the hilt and embrace the project, there can't be any second-guessing about it.  Otherwise we may as well hire Graeme Souness as our Director of Football and Jaime Redknapp to be our head coach so that when Rafa fails and leaves, there's someone there to pick up the pieces, if we're that worried about it.
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

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Great post MK, thanks. It's a nit-picking point, but there's a sense that even within a mature organisation that's completed its transformative 'pupation', there's a sense in which it should never stop transforming - it should always be integrating best practice and being mindful of its competitive advantage. For me that's one thing that genuinely qualifies Rafa as the type of long-term CEO you portray (transformation followed by a long period presiding as 'overdog'). It was ridiculous to hear Lawrenson hint that Lee was some kind of yes-man in his comments after the recent Arsenal game. Rafa, as you say, is not looking for yes men, but men who perform. The recent quotes from Pellegrino were clear on the subject - the two men are not personal friends - it's a professional relationship.

Anyway, a great post.

Offline fudge

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That's an interesting point and I thought of it while reading this about Arsenal.  Highlighted the bits in bold which have particular resonance as a counterpoint to the way Rafa is building his team in Liverpool.  I'm tempted to go and look for similar pieces on Ferguson, but I don't want to enter the swamps of Mancland without a road map.

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=1154&cntnt01origid=30&cntnt01returnid=42

Really good article that, like reading his stuff, mainly because its about Arsene's crumbling empire ;D
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Offline 4pool

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Would like to say it's nice to have a thread with so many ideas and opinions tossed around. This has been a real good discussion thread without the sidetracking or argumentative outbreaks.

At the end of the day, cliche time lol, -----we need to do things our way. We need to trust our own people to get it right. We can't copy because that doesn't work. The reason other academies are successful if that they have worked out their own formula and have the right people in place to make things work. You can't change Academy strategies, like some clubs change managers, and make things work long term.

I think Rafa is trying to get others to understand this. It is not about his control of all things but his strategy for excellence. If there are those within LFC or within the Academy who don't share the long term view of Rafa then there will be problems instituting a long term plan. When people prefer their own kingdom and protect it, then problems arise. All must be working together without egos.
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Offline Manila Kop

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Great post MK, thanks. It's a nit-picking point, but there's a sense that even within a mature organisation that's completed its transformative 'pupation', there's a sense in which it should never stop transforming - it should always be integrating best practice and being mindful of its competitive advantage. For me that's one thing that genuinely qualifies Rafa as the type of long-term CEO you portray (transformation followed by a long period presiding as 'overdog'). It was ridiculous to hear Lawrenson hint that Lee was some kind of yes-man in his comments after the recent Arsenal game. Rafa, as you say, is not looking for yes men, but men who perform. The recent quotes from Pellegrino were clear on the subject - the two men are not personal friends - it's a professional relationship.

Anyway, a great post.

Thanks, Roy, for the compliments.  :)  Totally agree about the continual improvement part, as every organization must continue to evolve and adapt to changing times.  I believe though that the real transformation is in the working principles, philosophy, and outlook of an organization - the foundation of everything else, from incremental improvements in processes to recruitment priorities.  I think this is the transformation that men like Welch, Cruyff, Shankly and now Benitez were all trying to pursue.

It would be interesting if you could give us some quotes about the similar transformation undertaken in British Cycling, based on what I was reading on the Level 3 thread before it seems that their new CEO pursued something similar?  Most of my examples are either football or corporate-based since that's my area of exposure, it would be good to have more examples for comparison from everyone.  :)

Really good article that, like reading his stuff, mainly because its about Arsene's crumbling empire ;D

My true believer Gooner friends detest him, so he must be doing something right.  ;D

Would like to say it's nice to have a thread with so many ideas and opinions tossed around. This has been a real good discussion thread without the sidetracking or argumentative outbreaks.

At the end of the day, cliche time lol, -----we need to do things our way. We need to trust our own people to get it right. We can't copy because that doesn't work. The reason other academies are successful if that they have worked out their own formula and have the right people in place to make things work. You can't change Academy strategies, like some clubs change managers, and make things work long term.

I think Rafa is trying to get others to understand this. It is not about his control of all things but his strategy for excellence. If there are those within LFC or within the Academy who don't share the long term view of Rafa then there will be problems instituting a long term plan. When people prefer their own kingdom and protect it, then problems arise. All must be working together without egos.

Welcome to the discussion 4pool mate  :wave

I agree with trusting our own people to get it right, however I do have a caveat about "copying".  When we talk about examples like Arsenal, Manchester United, and Barcelona, and examine the ways in which each of these clubs have achieved their success, it's a means of benchmarking ourselves and seeking out best practices which can give another perspective to what's currently being done at Liverpool.  Granted all these clubs have their own history, culture, traditions - but that doesn't stop car companies from adopting the most effective practices of their competitors, or armed forces of countries from copying the tactics and technology of other states.

You said it yourself - it's about trust.  And I trust a man like Rafa, who has clearly embraced our club's rich heritage - not just to slavishly copy from others, whether Real Madrid or Arsenal, but to use them to come up with something appropriate for Liverpool.  But the study of others' strengths and weaknesses is definitely a tool that every top-level manager uses to catch up or beat the competition.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

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An important lesson in this next post from MK, methinks... commitment and continuity are the keys, and they have to be long-term. In fact that's wrong - they have to be perpetual.

Seems like the Stamford Bridge clearance sale has begun.

Quote
Chelsea ditch expensive foreign kids
Duncan Castles
The Observer, Sunday 11 January 2009

Chelsea have begun a clear-out of their underperforming youth ranks as the club attempt to refocus their academy recruitment efforts on young English talent. A large group of players caught in limbo between Luiz Felipe Scolari's senior squad and Chelsea's under-18 team have been made available for transfer or loan - with the club offering to subsidise their unusually high wages in some cases.

Having not played on loan to Portsmouth, Israel striker Ben Sahar has been moved to Dutch Eredivisie strugglers De Graafschap. Danish forward Morten Nielsen - whose father Benny was employed by the club as a scout - is close to joining Saint-Etienne on loan. Italian centre-back Vincenzo Camilleri may return to Reggina, while Portugal youth internationals Fábio Ferreira and Ricardo Fernandes have rejected transfers to Italy and Spain, despite Chelsea offering to pay off the remaining six months of their contracts in full. The futures of a number of English players on loan at lower-division clubs are also under consideration.

Signed before Frank Arnesen's multi-million-pound appointment as chief scout and director of youth development, Ferreira and Fernandes are at the low end of the wage scale at £85,000 a year. Many of Arnesen's recruits take home more than £150,000.

Embarrassingly, the Dane has spent much of his recent time attempting to move his lauded signings on. His failure to establish "the best youth development programme in the world" and produce a player a season for the first team, coupled with comments made about Roman Abramovich's straitened finances, have angered the owner and have led to Arnesen losing influence at Stamford Bridge.

Chelsea officials say the departures of certain youth players is a natural part of the academy assessment process, unconnected with efforts to economise. The club currently have 20 England youth internationals between the ages of 15 and 18, but are seeking to increase that number.

Scolari, meanwhile, has moved to assert his authority over the senior squad by handing out a list outlining a range of penalties to be exacted for ill-discipline. The punishments include fines of several hundred pounds for every minute a player is late for training or club travel, several thousand pounds for leaving the country without permission and others for breaching the dress code by wearing hats.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/11/chelsea-youth-team/

Offline nocturnalvin

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Hi guys, i am back after sorting a crumbling laptop that kept failing me despite numerous rescus efforts. :)

Anyway, M'Kop, if i get you correctly, you are pretty much propagating for Rafa to assume that "CEO" role, with very good and valid points.

I still differ in this particular opinion, because the chances of Rafa leaving is always there. (i think i am too lazy to write effectively now....)

So lets just say that a structure exist to allow smooth transition and continuity, and should keep disruption to a minimum in the event of an important person leaving. Certainly, Parry is a clown at doing his job, and is no visionary by any means, but a right person positioned "upstairs", with key personnel managing their own portfolio aimed at achieving a set of common objectives such as the kind of football philosophy etc.

I admire Barca for the way they stick to a certain manner to play football, and it has transcended over the years, regardless of who is the manager. The people they pick has to believe in this particular philosophy. Even now that Guardiola has been promoted, i am sure the same philosophy runs thru the B team, the academy etc.

In a nutshell, i am all for Rafa being given more power in certain footballing matters, but i dread to see if he has total control over every single aspect.

night guys...its late where i am.

Offline hesbighesred

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The thing is nocturn, and please please correct me if I'm wrong here, wasn't that 'Barca system' implemented, or at least largely implemented, by Cruyff in his time as manager there?

That's personally what I'm arguing for. Rafa is actually one of the best qualified people we could hope to find in terms of implementing a proper youth program, having overseen that side of things at Real from kid's to the reserves - IE, we let Rafa put the structures in place, then let him pick or at least have huge input/agree fully with the choice of person to oversee it - then make sure that person also has the power to keep that system going, and keep it relevant, regardless of who's in charge.

He is the cat who walks by himself, and all roads are alike to him.

Offline nocturnalvin

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The thing is nocturn, and please please correct me if I'm wrong here, wasn't that 'Barca system' implemented, or at least largely implemented, by Cruyff in his time as manager there?

That's personally what I'm arguing for. Rafa is actually one of the best qualified people we could hope to find in terms of implementing a proper youth program, having overseen that side of things at Real from kid's to the reserves - IE, we let Rafa put the structures in place, then let him pick or at least have huge input/agree fully with the choice of person to oversee it - then make sure that person also has the power to keep that system going, and keep it relevant, regardless of who's in charge.



I am not exactly sure, but it would be more than one person calling the shots.


royhendo

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Speaks for itself this...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/01/16/no-deal-stunner-as-rafa-benitez-rejects-anfield-contract-offer-liverpool-fc-latest-100252-22708319/

---

Quote
No deal: Stunner as Rafa Benitez rejects Anfield contract offer - Liverpool FC latest

Jan 16 2009 by Tony Barrett, Liverpool Echo

RAFA Benitez has rejected Liverpool’s contract offer.

The Reds boss today told the ECHO it was “with great regret” that he has declined the proposal but feels he has no other option.

Benitez says he has no complaints with the financial terms of the deal on the table, nor the length of the proposed contract with these elements having been agreed by all parties last month.

The Spaniard is adamant he has no quarrel with Liverpool owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett, insisting recent talks have never been anything but amicable. But he feels the conditions of the contract would not allow him to manage football matters at the club to the best of his abilities.

As revealed in the ECHO on December 19, the sticking point throughout the negotiations has been what Benitez terms his “role and responsibilities”, with the Liverpool manager keen to have a bigger say in the running of the club’s academy and an increased influence over transfers. This request has been turned down by Hicks and Gillett, resulting in Benitez rejecting their offer.

“My relationship with the owners is better than people think,” he insisted. “I have regular contact with them and especially with Tom Hicks who has always been very supportive.

“The talks between my agent and the advisers of the owners have been very positive and friendly and our differences are about my responsibilities.

“The owners feel that the manager’s decisions need to be subject to the chief executive but I know that I am subject to results and to our fans and they are the best judges I will ever have.

“I have a lot of experience in football at different clubs and if you do not have a technical director and you are the manager you have to have control of the football decisions. But always within the confines of a budget which is controlled by the owners and the club.

“In this scenario the manager knows the amount money he has available to him and can decide how much he should spend on each player according to the needs of the team.

“The only person who can decide the value of a player to his squad is the manager because he knows what elements are needed to improve the squad.”

Benitez has long been frustrated about being contractually denied a greater influence over Liverpool’s youth academy and had sought to have the situation reversed in talks with Hicks and Gillett. The owners, though, have told him they are not ready to bow to his demands, leaving Benitez frustrated at what he sees as a missed opportunity to improve the Kirkby-based facility.

He said: “I believe the academy is a very important part of the future of the club. The length of the contract was already agreed and this showed my long term commitment to the club.

“I know the academies of Ajax, Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan and Valencia and they are producing players regularly.

“The way the system works there means the manager has an input into development and I think this could be the way forward here and we would hope that this would help us make better use of local talent.”

Benitez insists that money has nothing to do with his decision and has told the fans he will continue to give everything in a bid to bring more success to Anfield.

And says he now wants to put his contract situation behind him for the time being in order to concentrate on Monday night’s eagerly awaited Premier League clash with Everton.

“I have to say again that this is not about financial gain. This is not a way to get more money,” he added.

“This is solely about being allowed to manage Liverpool Football Club to the best of my abilities as I see them.

“I believe that this club has the potential to improve and I just want to be able to help this to happen.

“I will continue to do my job as manager and concentrate on the thing that our fans want me to focus on – winning trophies for them.

“From the first day I came to the club I have only ever given 100% and I will continue to do this.

“We have a very important game coming up against Everton on Monday night and now I just want to be able to concentrate only on this.”

Offline Manila Kop

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I think my analogy of hiring a manager to reverse a company's fortunes without giving him the full means to do so rings truer now more than ever.  Having said that though, the Barry-Xabi saga does plant a seed of doubt in my mind about Rafa's judgment, but every manager makes mistakes.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

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That's true MK, but there's a complicating factor isn't there?

If Rafa had 100% control then the squad would arguably at that time have already included Alves, Simao/D.Carvalho, Heinze/Kalade, which means the Barry issue wouldn't have arisen... nor necessarily would Dossena, nor Riera... The groundhog-day Gerrard sagas would never have happened...

It's moot, but with control we'd have more clarity.

Edit: the other aspect to this is that had Rafa been in direct control, he would have picked up the phone and dealt directly with Villa over Barry and Spurs over Keane. Chances are the situations would have unfolded in a very different way. Rafa would have thrashed out whether it was a goer within budget, and if he was 100% clear on the length it might take to sort out, he'd have moved on sharpish. The goal for him is to move quickly and to move early in the transfer windows, particularly in the summer to ensure he has time to work with players in pre-season.

It's easy to throw in potential problems with Xabi/Barry, but a fuller analysis maybe highlights that things could have been a lot different had Parry not been involved. The same applies for many of our other footballing 'challenges'.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 03:07:36 pm by royhendo »

royhendo

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Worth posting these here. From shanklyboy in the 'Rafa's contract' thread on the main board. Blink and you'll miss important posts like these...

I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated  30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benitez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.
The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.
The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.
Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.
Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League  and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benitez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benitez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benitez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benitez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benitez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benitez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benitez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.
Benitez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.
He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benitez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benitez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benitez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.
I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benitez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benitez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benitez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks  & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benitez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benitez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.
As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image.


If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of  Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.

H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending  to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that  H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.

Secondly  that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing  credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.

However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.

All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.

Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know  that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.   

Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.

Something I meant to add to the end of the previous post,which is partly my own views to go with a conversation I had today.
Given the statement by Hicks and his confidence that all of this can be easily resolved there is a school of thought that all of this has been contrived by H & G.
They know full well what Benitez is asking for yet after 3 draught contracts have been worked on they have still not come up with anything satisfactory.
The deliberate nature of not coming up with the goods is a double edged sword.Firstly to test the resolve of both Benitez and Parry, in order to see how determined they are to have their way.
Secondly and most interesting is the 'fire starter' theory.

H & G have engineered this situation, have lit this particular fire themselves, in order to be the Knights in shining armour who come and put it out.
They may have decided that Benitez is likely to fight this publically and by keeping a low profile, they can gauge the public response. If the reaction to Benitez from the fans is pro-Rafa, they can implement their plan. If it isn't in favour of Rafa , they can implement plan an alternative plan.
They have known all along what needs to be done, have decided what course of action to take and are simply employing elaborate tactics to win the hearts and minds of the supporters or implement whatever plan they deem is appropriate, based on their own agenda and/or their perception of public support for Benitez.

Seems a bit far fetched doesn't it?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 09:56:40 pm by royhendo »

Offline TSC

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That's true MK, but there's a complicating factor isn't there?

If Rafa had 100% control then the squad would arguably at that time have already included Alves, Simao/D.Carvalho, Heinze/Kalade, which means the Barry issue wouldn't have arisen... nor necessarily would Dossena, nor Riera... The groundhog-day Gerrard sagas would never have happened...



To be fair mate I think that's a bit simplistic.  I think the budget (or lack of) contributed to the non signings of Alves et al.

Yep i think the structure and indeed Parry's roles may have contributed, but ultimately if the cash isn't there the manager can't make the signing.  For example barry fell through because the owners wouldn't stump up.  Parry wasn't to blame there necessarily.

Heinze?  Well, Fergie always wins doesn't he.

However you're prob right regarding some signings that where within budget at the time.

royhendo

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To be fair mate I think that's a bit simplistic.  I think the budget (or lack of) contributed to the non signings of Alves et al.

Yep i think the structure and indeed Parry's roles may have contributed, but ultimately if the cash isn't there the manager can't make the signing.  For example barry fell through because the owners wouldn't stump up.  Parry wasn't to blame there necessarily.

Heinze?  Well, Fergie always wins doesn't he.

However you're prob right regarding some signings that where within budget at the time.

It's moot, but equally it's never fully refllected in the debate is it? Barry ultimately fell through for the reasons you describe, but Parry was the man negotiating on the club's behalf. O'Neill was giving us all regular updates on the faxes he'd received and hadn't received. Parry's communication on these issues is legendary in its ineptitude.

Had Rafa been dealing with O'Neill, you can guarantee things would have been resolved to a conclusion one way or another very quickly, because the main gripe beyond budget even has been the speed or lack thereof with which we've done our transfer business. These are decisive men who have to act quickly in their work when things need rectified. There would have been conflict, sure, but there would have been clarity and resolution because they would have talked to one another.

The thing is, when it's gone well, Rafa's been very quick to praise Parry and those involved (Lucas for example - he was very vocal about how well he felt they'd done).

Kaladze and Carvalho were recent 'overrules'... both within budget... both since having been called into question by our buying players in the latter part of their 20s.

Offline Manila Kop

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It would be interesting Roy to come up with a hypothetical "first-choice" Rafa lineup if he had been handling our transfer dealings at the start...a team to drool over surely.

With regards to having a "project" at the club I'm not saying that the "manager-as-CEO" model is the best or even the only way possible.  What I am saying though is that in our circumstances - given Rafa's strong personality and extensive expertise in player development and winning titles, the shambles that is that are our bandit-robbers owners, and the perpetual sloth machine that is Rick Parry - it's the most appropriate for us.

For alternative management models, I thought this was an interesting article about the course West Ham's taken.  I'm keeping on the lookout for similar articles as I think it'll be an interesting comparison of management frameworks.

Quote from: The Independent
No more Freddie Ljungbergs
They once typified the excesses of modern football, but West Ham are now a much leaner operation – as their dealings in the January transfer window have shown.
By Jason Burt
Saturday, 17 January 2009

There is a document at West Ham United called the Football Project. It could, alternatively, be entitled the Freddie Ljungberg Legacy as it was drawn up with the fallout from the midfielder's ill-fated, hugely expensive move from Arsenal to Upton Park in mind. Its author is the club's chief executive, Scott Duxbury, and it is the template by which West Ham have rebuilt themselves, overhauling everything from their scouting network, medical facilities – to reduce a crippling injury list – coaching and the way they buy and sell players.

In Duxbury's words, it was an end to the "haphazard way of spending money" and the start of a model of working that would lead to the club being self-sufficient, not reliant on a wealthy benefactor and certainly not – as had been predicted following the Carlos Tevez saga, the financial travails of its owner Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson and the fallout from the departure of manager Alan Curbishley – in the business of conducting a fire sale in the January transfer window. If anything, the window is a relief for West Ham as it means they can provide concrete evidence that they are not in crisis.

Clubs have been circling, with bids and inquiries received for Craig Bellamy, Scott Parker, Matthew Upson, Valon Behrami and others. Duxbury insists that the only players that will be allowed to go are those on a list agreed by the manager Gianfranco Zola and the technical director Gianluca Nani, such as Matthew Etherington (who has joined Stoke) and Calum Davenport (whose move to Bolton fell through but is likely to move anyway).

Having said which, Duxbury says they are not afraid to sell. Everyone has a price and Tottenham Hotspur are closing in on the £15m valuation for Bellamy. But he expects Parker and Upson to stay and insists there there is now a crucial difference. West Ham will now sell only when they are ready and point to the record of Manchester United. They are one of the best selling clubs in the world. David Beckham is moved on, but only when they have Cristiano Ronaldo – younger, cheaper, better – to slot in. They sell on their terms and that is West Ham's goal and one of the goals of the Football Project.

The first step was the recruitment of Nani from the Italian club Brescia. Duxbury interviewed Leonardo, Milan's technical director, and Franco Baldini, with the latter declining the role because he was due to become England's general manager following Fabio Capello's appointment. But Baldini recommended Nani. With the Italian on board, West Ham then implemented a plan to reduce their first-team squad to a "core" of 20 players plus goalkeepers, with the reserve team a place for young, up-and-coming talents, rather than older players returning to fitness. The average age of the reserves would be 18 and they would play the same style of football as the first team so they could slot straight in when needed.

To do this required an improved network of scouts and, certainly, a better medical department. Injuries had to be prevented. So West Ham again raided Serie A – this time taking Marco Cesarini and Giorgio Gasparini from Milan's medical lab. The latter is famed for working with Filippo Inzaghi, who overcame serious knee problems and is still playing at the age of 38. It is no coincidence that West Ham's injury record is now vastly improved.

This was all done with Curbishley as manager but when he walked out, claiming he had been undermined over transfers, it did give West Ham the opportunity to recruit a different style of manager. A coach. Duxbury came close to appointing Roberto Donadoni but then, in Rome, met Zola. He read through the Football Project and found it chimed with his own ambition. "He's got an incredible reputation as a winner and he wouldn't do anything to risk that so he agreed to join on the basis of the Football Project," Duxbury said.

"He believed it was the way to achieve success and it's what excites him. What's lost in football is that people think the only way to be successful is to buy great players, but why can't you coach them into great players? Take Freddie Sears and let Zola work with and teach him how to be a striker. If you buy Kaka you defeat the object, you buy success. We want to create it."

To that end, Zola also made clear he didn't want a big squad. The final part of the personnel was the recruitment of Steve Clarke from Chelsea to give Zola support, especially with defensive coaching, and to bring his knowledge of working with Jose Mourinho and add experience. It is why West Ham paid substantial compensation for the Scot.

Duxbury, Nani, Zola and – sometimes – Clarke meet on a daily basis away from Chadwell Heath, West Ham's training ground, to discuss and appraise the squad, what the aims and targets should be. At the training ground, there is no talk of contracts, money, business, just coaching, tactics, fitness. The players know not to ask Zola about contracts and the manager doesn't deal with agents. That business is taken care of by Nani and Duxbury.

West Ham believe their project is working. Performances are better, results improving. "This isn't new," Duxbury said. "What's new is putting together all the different parts with a clear structure – scouting, medical, business, coaching – so that they are separate but work together.

"The club has a bad history of being seen as a selling club. We don't have to sell but we shouldn't be afraid to sell. But only on our terms. You constantly re-evaluate the squad. So if a bid comes in we appraise it: how old is the player, what's his worth, what's his worth to the team, and have we identified a better player in his position? If the answer is yes, then we do it. If no, then we don't. But the final decision rests with the manager."

West Ham may be sold. Gudmundsson is looking for a buyer but he maintains that, despite his financial problems, he doesn't need to sell. And the presentations that are being made, to potential owners, are on the basis of the Football Project continuing.

Case study 1 How not to do it:

After nine years at Arsenal, Freddie Ljungberg signed for West Ham for £1.5m in July 2007 on a four-year contract, in the middle of the former chairman Eggert Magnusson's spending spree. He earned an astonishing £85,000 a week, a significant increase in his Arsenal wages despite being 30 when he was signed. There was also surprise that West Ham paid a fee when it was believed he could leave for free. Ljungberg struggled and made just 25 appearances for West Ham, plagued by injuries and poor form, and was eventually paid off, receiving 50 per cent of the remainder of his contract, which amounted to around £3m. He has since signed for the MLS team Seattle Sounders.

Case study 2 How to do it

The 27-year-old left-back George McCartney had probably his best ever season in the last campaign, playing all 38 Premier League games following his arrival from Sunderland in exchange for Clive Clarke plus £600,000 in the summer of 2006. But he made it clear he wanted to return to Sunderland last August and was eventually sold for £6m. West Ham signed the little-known Congolese defender Herita Ilunga from Toulouse on loan as his replacement. The club were fiercely criticised for the sale of McCartney and arrival of Ilunga. A year younger than McCartney, Ilunga has been a major success and is set to sign a deal, with West Ham taking up an option to buy him for £1.5m in the summer.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/no-more-freddie-ljungbergs-1418128.html
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

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Quote from: The Independent
Sam Wallace: Control freak Benitez picked the wrong week to go to war with the boardroom
Talking Football: What Benitez is asking for is unprecedented power. More than Ferguson and Wenger
Monday, 19 January 2009

The final word in transfer dealings, proxy-chief executive, chief of the academy, answerable to pretty much no one. Seeing as Rafael Benitez's boardroom coup is now public, he may as well make a clean sweep of it and demand final say on all sandwich fillings served during match days at Liverpool. While you're at it, give him the key to the Anfield stationery cupboard too. You want 20 envelopes and a new printer cartridge? Better ask Rafa first.

The trouble with those many individuals in English football who harbour dictatorial tendencies is that they do not realise the damaging effect of their power grabs on everyone else. Benitez decided to go for the jugular of chief executive Rick Parry, to accuse him of mistakes over Daniel Agger's future, at precisely the wrong moment in the season. Everton visit Anfield tonight, Steven Gerrard is in court on Friday, and, as of Saturday, Manchester United have seized the initiative in the title race.

The timing of Benitez's declaration of war on Parry, of his alliance of convenience with co-owner Tom Hicks, could not have come at a worse time for Liverpool had Mr. Ferguson been sabotaging it himself. Benitez's attack over the weekend was not about what was best for the club, however much he might protest that it was. What Benitez did this weekend served only his own ends. For such a brilliant football strategist, it was a ghastly mistake.

Parry would never claim to be the last word in slick business acumen, but then neither is he the worst and losing out on Gareth Barry was not the first time a transfer has collapsed. Luiz Felipe Scolari cannot be too pleased at the way his club dithered over Robinho. Ferguson can count plenty of bodged transfer deals over the years, from Paul Gascoigne in 1988 to Ronaldinho in 2003. Benitez may want his own man in charge of transfers but how long before he decides the new chap is not up to it?

What Benitez is asking for is unprecedented power. More, it seems, than Ferguson who even now, with two Champions League titles and 10 Premier Leagues to his name, answers to chief executive David Gill, a chartered accountant by trade. More than Arsène Wenger, without question the greatest money-to-value operator in the modern transfer market, whose line manager is a rookie chief executive from America who only started work at the club this month.

Let us follow in Benitez's fantasy for a moment and ask whether he merits the power he craves. His track record in transfers is not as bad as popular myth suggests, in many respects it is much better than many give him credit for. He has shipped out the failures quickly (Gabriel Paletta, Mark Gonzalez, Fernando Morientes) or got them out on loan (Sebastian Leto) and traded even some suspect performers for a profit (Momo Sissoko, Jan Kromkamp).

There have been many successes too (Xabi Alonso, Pepe Reina, Agger), others he has profited on (Peter Crouch, Craig Bellamy) and his biggest investment of all, Fernando Torres, is maturing nicely. An exact inventory of prices, players, profit and loss is not a matter of public record. But broadly speaking, it would be fair to say that Benitez has a very decent, if not spectacular, record in the transfer market. Yet it is certainly not the record of a manager to whom any owner would wish to cede complete control.

As for his desire to take over the club's academy, it was most people's understanding that he had already done that. He has ousted the academy director, Steve Heighway, who brought through Steve McManaman, Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher. He has, according to one estimation, signed 27 teenagers from 13 different countries to the academy over the last three and a half years. That does not sound like a manager who is struggling for influence.

If you still think that Benitez has got it right on Liverpool's academy, read chapter three, A Liver Bird Upon My Chest, of Carragher's recent autobiography. It is a compelling treatise on how average foreign teenage recruits have stunted the development of local Scouse talent. Carragher is scathing about Heighway's treatment at the hands of Benitez and Gérard Houllier, and less than complimentary about the likes of Paletta and Leto. It is very rare for a player to challenge his current boss in print but Carragher evidently felt strongly enough about the potential effect on his club.

Of those 27 teenagers signed by Benitez, Carragher names only Krisztian Nemeth and Dani Pacheco as potential Liverpool players. Otherwise he is left wondering why local boys Jay Spearing, Stephen Darby and Martin Kelly have not been given a chance by Benitez. "It's disturbing to hear some of the arguments made by parents who say they may send their child to Everton instead, simply because they are not seeing our local boys get a chance," Carragher writes.

No manager, not even one as talented as Benitez, can be allowed to run unchecked. Clubs are at their healthiest when the powerful figures who run them exert checks and balances upon each other. Of course, this being Benitez, the stories of a summer move to Real Madrid have already begun. That is the biggest joke of all. Can you imagine English football's biggest control freak at a club where the manager is the last person to know anything?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/sam-wallace-control-freak-benitez-picked-the-wrong-week-to-go-to-war-with-the-boardroom-1419309.html
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

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I know a lot of RAWKites don't like Martin Samuel, but this article sounds like he's been reading this thread.  :D

Quote from: The Daily Mail
All you need is trust, but you are not going to get it in writing Rafa
by Martin Samuel

To stay at Liverpool, Rafael Benitez, the manager, does not require a team of lawyers working overtime to insert unworkable clauses into his new contract.

He needs something altogether more decent, simple and old fashioned. Trust.

A mutually sincere relationship between a senior employee and his employers is what separates Benitez from Mr. Ferguson at Manchester United, Arsene Wenger at Arsenal, Martin O’Neill at Aston Villa, even David Moyes at Everton.

Benitez has an issue with Rick Parry, his chief executive, whereas by comparison Ferguson has nothing but praise for Parry’s equivalent at Manchester United, David Gill, describing him in an interview with GQ magazine as the best thing to happen to the club recently.

Benitez stops short of wishing Parry gone, but his comradeship with co-owner Tom Hicks, who has also moved against Parry, would seem to be based on the old adage that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Observed as a family unit, Liverpool are strange and dysfunctional.

The most successful of Benitez’s contemporaries have working relationships built on two central tenets. The first is that the manager is the best judge of what a football club needs in the transfer market, the second is that the senior executives will, within reason, at all times respect this and attempt to deliver his vision.

Crucially, however, such arrangements are not put in writing. They cannot be. To embrace this ideal in a way that was legally binding would make an employee more powerful than his employer.

Ferguson is not given the power to dictate transfer policy at Old Trafford; instead he accepts assurances that this is the way it will be.

Other professions will recognise this arrangement. A newspaper columnist, for instance, writes on the understanding that he is at liberty to express individual opinions, without interference. Yet, not one will have a contract that says ‘write what you like’; in black and white a publisher will always reserve the management’s right to edit or spike copy.

This protects the newspaper against extremity, inaccuracy, vanity or a bloke just trying to work his ticket. Press freedom exists on trust.

The best football clubs also utilise this dynamic. Gill knows that Ferguson’s judgment has brought success; Ferguson understands the Glazer family must have the final word on major expenditure. The manager trusts that they will listen to his recommendations; the owners trust he knows what he is doing.

The problem at Liverpool would appear to be that nobody trusts anybody, which is why Manchester United were prepared to pay above what was expected for Michael Carrick of Tottenham Hotspur, and Liverpool vetoed Benitez’s interest in Gareth Barry of Aston Villa, against his wishes.

To recap, Parry and Benitez are clearly at loggerheads, as are Liverpool’s owners, Hicks and George Gillett. Parry and Hicks are opposed, too. Against this backdrop of constant battling are skirmishes; over Barry not coming, Daniel Agger possibly going and, most damagingly of all, around Benitez’s contract. Fernando Torres, Liverpool’s record signing, said at the weekend that as many as six players would consider their options if Benitez left, so this current dispute must be taken seriously.

The downside of employing a leading coach from abroad is that the influence of a strong individual tends to alter the culture of a club. So Liverpool is now a Spanish enclave on the Irish Sea and the consequences of Benitez walking would outstrip, for instance, the departure of Moyes at Everton.

Moyes has been consistent, relatively successful and is very well respected, but has not presided over what amounts to regime change. Everton, as of January 21, 2009, still resemble Everton of March 14, 2002, when Moyes took over, except better. Not so Liverpool.

Losing Rafa would mean abandoning the Rafalution and Liverpool would move, in an instant, from a point where the mission is on the point of accomplishment to one where it is starting again from scratch. In the circumstances, then, it should be imperative to keep him: but not at any cost.

What Benitez wants is basically out of the question. He cannot have total control of the transfer budget, because it is not his budget. There is mitigation and sympathy for Benitez but it is too simplistic to view this merely as the fall-out from the failure to sign Barry last summer. This is about what happens if trust is missing from a relationship.

It was not that Liverpool could not afford Barry, or did not want Barry, it was that they did not trust Benitez sufficiently to make the call.

He thought the player was worth £18million, his employers did not, and they did not satisfactorily support his expertise to allow him final say. Now Benitez wishes to circumvent this process with clauses in his contract, but if Liverpool did not trust him then, why would they trust him now, and why would they legally surrender executive veto?

Would Barry’s £18m fee have been too much for Manchester United or Arsenal had the manager made his case? The likely answer is no. Yet, Ferguson and Wenger do not possess total control over transfers, either. They merely have a board of directors who respect their opinion.

If Benitez felt that same love, none of this would have happened. David Dein, the former vice-chairman of Arsenal, is feted for the way he managed Wenger during his Highbury days but, beyond the initial appointment — which was inspired — how hard can it have been?

A pre-recorded tape message could have accomplished much the same (and been relied upon not to sell its shares to Alisher Usmanov) throughout those years. In the event of a difficult transfer decision, the board would consult its trusty Grundig Four Track Deluxe Model TK 23L, press play and hear what it had to say. A deep voice would then intone: ‘Whatever the French bloke wants, say yes.’ Job done, gentlemen, meeting adjourned, anyone fancy a pint?

The Glazers have clearly reached the same conclusion about Ferguson, Randy Lerner, the Aston Villa owner, about O’Neill, too. It helps, though, if manager and owner are simpatico. Wenger, for some reason, has an aversion to spending money, and that policy will find favour with any board.

Ferguson is always willing to drop a million or 30 in the transfer market, but his way also wins trophies and he was very supportive of the Glazer takeover from the start, quickly learning the value of private ownership when United went out of the Champions League at the group stage against Benfica, and no questions were asked or profits warnings hastily issued to the City.

O’Neill and Lerner have been on the same wavelength from day one in a way that must make Mark Hughes, the manager of Manchester City, green (or greyer) with envy.

Then there is Benitez who should, with his track record, have a parallel relationship but does not because, privately, some at the club still view him as a thinking man’s Harry Redknapp and flag up a quite frantic turnover of playing staff as evidence.

In this game of point-counterpoint, Benitez will then refer cynics to the squad he inherited and ask what else was he meant to do. And on it goes.

The stance of the club is unhelpful because the transfer market has never been an exact science and even the greatest managers make mistakes. Benitez would have paid £18m for Barry with no guarantees, yes, but the executive who killed that deal but agreed Robbie Keane was value for money at £20m from Tottenham is hardly looking the sharpest tool in the box, either.

The difference is that few depict the signing of Keane as a boardroom blunder. He is the mistake of Benitez alone. Maybe shouldering the blame has driven the manager to demand full responsibility.

Parry’s view is that every company has a chain of accountability and in football one of the links is between manager and chief executive. Looked at coldly, he is right. What he misses is the human touch, the bond that unites a successful club and is currently undermining Liverpool.

Parry found the right manager in Benitez, which is half of the job, but what remains is to put faith in him.

‘To trust people is a luxury which only the wealthy can indulge,’ wrote E.M. Forster. Liverpool would recognise the sentiment, but whether they can afford not to trust Benitez is a more pressing question. And if they do, how to demonstrate this without putting it in writing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1125024/MARTIN-SAMUEL-All-need-trust--going-writing-Rafa.html#
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 07:42:54 pm by Manila Kop »
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

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Forgot to post these here...

I've tried to stay out of this thread as much as I can as I didn't want to have to keep responding to some of the drivel that seems to creeping into every other post since Rafa's press conference last week. It's not that easy when you see things repeated  30 seconds after SSN have said it and another myth is perpetuated ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
So I'm going to give an honest opinion based on fact. People can take it or leave it but those that know will understand. Those that want to just use any platform of perceived negativity to have a crack at Benitez will continue to do so because its been festering in their heads for too long to change. Those that only have an opinion dependant on what they see in the media will only change their opinion when they are told what it is by the same.

I've worked with Rick Parry and as you say Alan there is far more to this man than just being an accountant. His commitment to Liverpool F.C is undoubted and his workload would make most of us buckle after a week.
The job he inherited from Peter Robinson was one of if not THE biggest challenge to anyones abilities in recent football history.
The lack of foresight from his illustrious predecessors over many years has probably got more to do with our current plight than people care to see. Simply because it's easier to blame the 'clown' than anyone else. There is no smoke without fire though and therein lies part of the story.
Behind the scenes, he has worked tirelessly to haul our club back to where we once were. Both in terms of financial muscle and administrative excellence.
His ability to do this has been questioned many times within the club and some of the methods employed have actually left us further behind and not even close to be drawing level with our competitors.
Part of the blame for this has been the remnants of Liverpools administrative past. How things had to be done 'The Liverpool Way', while still dragging the club into the modern day. Liverpool as a footballing business model would be the team equivalent of the 2nd Division when Parry arrived while our main competitors were swanning around The Champions League, such was the ground we had to make up.

The problem with Parry is that his role and responsibilities have changed dramatically at the same time as we tried and failed to play catch up. So no sooner did we look as though we were getting there,then he was loaded with further responsibilities. This created difficulties, compounded by the changes in the managerial structure of the club and the rapid responses needed in the modern game. He was in effect doing 3 jobs.
One he was qualified for as an accountant. One he had experience of, effectively, as a senior administrator with the Premier League  and one he was never going to manage effectively alongside the other two. That was as C.E.O of Liverpool F.C.

How a club like Liverpool F.C could be the only one who didn't employ a marketting executive until Ayres was appointed is testament to the reliance of keeping things done a certain way so as not to rock the boat. They didn't learn by past mistakes. See the farcical 'joint manager' roles of Evans & Houllier as further evidence of that type of reasoning.

The job was too big for Parry but nobody within the club was prepared to change the situation. Instead more responsibility and therefore more power was given to Parry.

Once Benitez arrived at the club, things started to change almost immediately.
Benitez realised that from a footballing aspect the club was not geared up to the needs of the modern game and certainly not to the needs of Liverpool F.C. Some of the things Benitez was informed were in place when he was offered the managers position were clouded in half truths. Many of those things were paramount to Benitez in his decision to come to the club. They represented many of the things he saw as being vital for the club's long and short term future.

Benitez came to the club believing there was a platform for him to put his ideas in place and take the club to where they told him they wanted to be. The reality of what he found was so far removed from the initial promises. Initially this was put down to clashes of personality, which in some cases it was. However Benitez found himself running down blind alleys at almost every turn.He was continually meeting Parry down there. The main stumbling blocks being cash, the buying and selling of players and the youth structure. All things that a footballing man needed to run smoothly and effectively. Benitez was renowned for being one of the widely respected youth coaches during his time in Spain and this was a major part of his CV. Yet he was told to keep his nose out at Liverpool. The fragmentation of the senior and junior set ups at the club was beyond his comprehension. As was the fact that he, as manager was being prevented from having any effective input in to it's running or effectiveness.
Benitez decided to restructure those areas he was 'allowed' to and that started some major problems.
He effectively bypassed the youth system and brought his own players in, to train with the senior squad. Once Steve Heighway left,many of the successful youth team were promoted to the reserves and therefore came under his overall control.

He still didn't have any real input into the youth set up which was being overseen and run by Rick Parry. Parry's reluctance to sanction or back the overhaul of the youth system has been a major problem for Benitez. A none footballing man effectively preventing a football man from doing what he was brought in to do in the first place.
It is well known within the club that Benitez wants to develop our own players. He is extremely passionate about it, yet feels this won't happen quickly enough under the present structure.Even though that long term the club will benefit both financially and in terms of having a local heart to the club. Something that he spoke of only today.

On top of all of this is the farcical situation regarding protracted transfers we are all aware of. This all came to a head, just before the Gerrard fiasco made the headlines. Parry's reticence to get the Gerrard's contract sorted out was seen within the club and by Rafa in particular as an indication of how much power Parry thought he had. This was a further indication of his lack of footballing mentality. He was actually prompted to get this sorted from within the club but still dragged his heels.This caused major problems internally and is the catalyst for many of today's difficulties. The almost catastrophic outcome was seen as a watershed. It wasn't!

On top of that Benitez had the unfortunate misfortune of having to go through Parry for every transfer.
I'm not going into who they were, but certain players at home and abroad had approached Liverpool F.C and had agreed to come after speaking with Benitez only for the deal to fall through after Parry became involved. Some were high profile, some were not. The biggest deals having been well documented. Some equally as big which have not been.were already agreed with players without massive wage demands or contract terms only to fall away yet again. This caused severe professional embarrassment for Benitez and restricted the progress of the team.

Once the takeover came about and the club was restructured once again, Benitez was once again made promises regarding transfers.Certain operating procedures were put into place by Hicks  & Gillette to try and smooth things along. Without going into too much detail about what they were here, they failed when the H & G relationship started to wobble. The operating procedures fell by the wayside, which Benitez wasn't happy about as they appeared to be working. Once H & G lost the day to day 'hands on ' contact with club matters,apart from Ayres 'input', things reverted to type and Parry just went about things The Parry Way.

As I said initially, Parry works tirelessly for the club. However he is not the man for the job. Certainly not working with Benitez, or any other forward thinking manager, who knows the buck stops with him under the current structure.
As the public face of Liverpool Football Club, you couldn't meet a more insipid, grey, uninspiring man. He is the archetypal accountant, who's lack of personality and charisma is exactly what you would imagine it to be by his public image.




If I'm not mistaken, this is the 3rd draught of  Benitez’s contract. The obvious sticking point being the clarification of his responsibilities.
The contracts have been altered each time, but have obviously failed to meet with Rafa’s expectations. These contracts have been drawn up under the instructions laid down by H & G, but it's not clear if Parry has had any say in the structuring of responsibilities. I'd be very surprised if he did officially, but unofficially is a different matter.
However it wouldn't be a surprise if the final draughts had been presented to him at the same time as Benitez‘s advisers.

H & G know full well what Benitez is after, as does Rick Parry. Dragging this out and not ascending  to his demands through 3 draught contracts is being seen two ways. Firstly that  H & G have already decided what course of action to take but are adopting a softly softly approach to it all in order to buy themselves some time until they can sit down with all concerned at the end of January and iron things out in person. . This would have the added bonus of keeping a lid on a potential powder keg.

Secondly  that they have no clear idea of how this will be resolved and again, need to gauge the depth of feeling in person. This is the more worrying for obvious reasons. The role Rick Parry has was defined by H & G initially and the concern is that they should be able to take away what they gave in the first place. The reality is somewhat more complicated. Parry is a professional man of high standing in the game. Any changes to his remit are going to be met with reticence . Losing  credibility and having his power reduced would be seen as a direct criticism and not be accepted lightly.

However, Benitez is in that exact position now. His position as manager is under constant scrutiny and he feels unable to work to his full capacity and fulfill the demands placed upon him under the current work practices. This is seen as a slight on his professional ability.

All Benitez demands are to do with ensuring the success of Liverpool F.C and are in no way seen as  him trying to wrestle power for powers sake. Parry would argue the same case, but with less credibility as football matters are still seen within the club as taking precedence.

Parry and Benitez have tried to work together. They know  that a great many of the problems have been caused by H & G. However both know that allies are needed, given the ’voting structure’ being used at the club.
There is still a certain degree of mistrust about however.This plagued the early years of H & G reign and was compounded when it became apparent to Moores and Parry that debt was going to be levied on the club. The first cut is the deepest as they say.   

Either way there has to be compromise for this to be resolved. Whether that compromise is to be voluntary or enforced is unknown.

Offline Manila Kop

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Thanks Roy, hadn't seen any of those.  Will be interesting to see whether the reports are true that Rafa will now get full control over transfers and Parry's going to be pushed towards handling commercial affairs only.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

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The bit about deals that people don't know about intrigues me MK - makes you wonder what might have been eh?

Offline SMD

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Well we know Daniel Carvalho was one player we missed out on because of Parry and the owners, not because of Rafa.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Offline Manila Kop

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The bit about deals that people don't know about intrigues me MK - makes you wonder what might have been eh?

 :duh  Who else have we missed?  5 years wasted under Parry's dithering incompetence.  He'd be better as a CFO I reckon with someone as CEO who has a long-term strategic vision that can mediate between Rafa and Parry.
« Last Edit: February 3, 2009, 04:13:04 am by Manila Kop »
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Manila Kop

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Some good stuff from shanklyboy on the difference between Chelsea under Mourinho and Liverpool under Benitez:

Some interesting points there roy.
I did touch on this in my post Ownership,Influence and The Liverpool Way.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=236410.0

Is a clubs style of play an overriding factor in success. Is this dependant on stability behind the scenes, or is it a product of the obvious and most simple things. Having the right manager with the right ideas and ideals, having the right players, an educated,patient, informed, passionate support base. Or is it, in the 'modern' game,simply having a never ending supply of money to throw at the problem? Buying a 'style' and a ' way'!

The 'narcotic' effect is I believe a very valid one. In it's simplest form we have the short term 'hit' of a new manager taking over a struggling team. The 'quick fix' syndrome.

Ultimately a system and structure have to be developed. A culture of success implemented.
Man Utd have been doing that for many years and have evolved within their structure.

At Liverpool we did the same for many years. We used the tried and trusted methods and evolved and developed new ones.
Underpinning that we had an excellent support structure to back the manager, from the boardroom downwards.We had a definite track to run on, while at the same time we had 'engineers' who were capable of laying new tracks to subtly move the big red machine in new directions as and when it was needed.
Once we came off that track we were effectively derailed. We have been trying to find our 'way' again in recent years due to the ownership debacle and quite obviously it's not an easy thing to achieve.
Chelsea are trying to replicate and shoe horn decades of planning and achievement into every season. Very few teams have been able to do that.

The one constant at Liverpool now is Benitez. He has a plan, a vision of how he wants the team to play. He has clear systems to employ and the ability to adapt.

Mourinho got the best from his group of players using short term influence. His tactical acumen was limited and his reliance on buying finished products were his downfall. He was unable to adapt to losing a few players from his team and looked to blame everyone but himself for the failure that ensued.

Blaming Abramovitch for not giving him enough money was indicative of the man.
The style of football in his 2nd and 3rd seasons were nothing like his first.
Mourinho is extremely defensive minded and after reverting to type in season 2 and 3 he began to lose his flair players that wreaked havoc in season 1. He effectively reverted to type and tried to grind out results every week.

That's fine if you don't want to have to justify spending £500+ million while complaining about the quality of the eggs you are allowed to buy!
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

Offline Gnurglan

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I admire Barca for the way they stick to a certain manner to play football, and it has transcended over the years, regardless of who is the manager. The people they pick has to believe in this particular philosophy. Even now that Guardiola has been promoted, i am sure the same philosophy runs thru the B team, the academy etc.

That's exactly what we want. It takes a while to set it up and get it to work properly, but once it's there you get a fantastic strength. You'd know immediately what kind of manager you'd be looking for and with enough time in the setup, you could grow your own leaders.

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"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez