Author Topic: Why Torres, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world...  (Read 108982 times)

Offline Hinesy

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but for Chelsea?

In the play A Man For All Seasons, Thomas More says to Richard who abandons his principles in return for the title The Duke of Wales,: "Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?"

and it reminded me of how many of us feel about Torres.

There have been many analogies describing the betrayal and hurt perpetrated by someone that we took as our own. Perhaps the most common and best ones have been to compare the affair to the end of an affair when a girl who you thought loved you and promised her very soul, turned round and ran off with the flash crass twat down the road who had the new XR3i and white socks. (an old car young'uns..).

There is a photo on here showing a mass of Chelsea fans showing the wanker sign to Torres, coupled sweetly with the note that Torres had said how respectful they'd been to him during his time in England.

The hypocrisy is startling.

Yet, and here's the level headed bit: He wanted to go and we'd be foolish to keep an unhappy player here. He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature, and perhaps if we're really honest we were wearing those rose-red tinted spectacles that desperately clung to something that was ours whilst the club seemed to collapse around us. We wanted to believe in Torres, Carra, Stevie, those things that were untouched by Hicks n Gilette, by the Purslow snake, and the persistent shite that fell down on us as if chucked from the Upper Anny Rd on a mancfan. (Chortle). Finally his wife had been promised a top nursery place for their kid by a Mr J. Terry of London, (actually that bit was made up).

So maybe, just maybe we didn't see the real Torres, unhappy, unsettled and wantaway. We saw the man we wanted to.

And what was he going to say to us when he left? Nothing. You can't. What was he going to say to his new club, of course he's going to over praise them, and say how excited he is to play for a top club. Well sorry to say but Chelsea are a top club when it comes to recent trophies and recent positions. Andy Carroll doubtless will be saying how its great to move to us... (oops, no he hasn't, he's just spent the first two days telling everyone how he was kicked out by money grabbing fatboy Ashley).

Except, except... (the level bit is over)... Any player who tattoos his skin with our name, who has an entire stand singing and dancing his song, and is universally feted by those fans, must realise that he's not going to a top club. He's going somewhere else. Where the money's better. But... as the Abba song goes, Can you hear the plastic flags Fernando?

And this is where we have to remember one thing. We fans live in a totally, and I mean totally different universe to anyone remotely connected to the world of football. Players like Carragher, Gerrard to a degree and even yes the recently retired Gary Neville are the exception.  Ferguson shows about as much loyalty to his players as Simon Cowell does to the X-Factor winner the week after Christmas. Do you think his hypocrisy over Rooney would’ve even started if it had been, say, Jung-Si Park? Players and managers, agents and backroom men and owners all fundamentally understand its a business.

We on the other hand live in a world where its a moral crime to change teams. We scratch our heads at some of us being even reasonable about some teams’ performances, never mind leaving a club.

We are a sentimental bunch of fans, and that’s saying something in a sport where all fans are sentimental about their club and all we have left is sentiment and an empty wallet. We go every week to get our fix of happiness from goals and ‘pledged’ support from players kissing the sponsored badge.

But all that said, its not entirely true... Kenny may have managed elsewhere, but really honestly, truly, he’s a red. A RED. A Liverpool man. And a true proper been there done it and scored twice Liverpool hero. Not Owen, or Torres, above even Robbie, a real legend.

Its our own fault for daring to believe we could let someone else into that hallowed pantheon of Liverpool heroes, we dared to believe. And then he abandons us for the pay cheque and plastic flag n fan. But he won’t care, because as we’ve found out, he has no understanding of what he’s left, and what’s he gone to. I don’t doubt there are real Chelsea fans out there. But when it comes to real history, to an understanding and realising and loving that genuine organic living breathing link between fan and player, can you hear anything Fernando? No I didn’t think so.

So don’t be surprised that we’re hurt, and pissed off and hiding our emotional embarrassment at how much you meant to us behind the shield of hate. Don’t be surprised if we don’t agree with the paid pundits and players who can’t understand the notion of feeling, of loyalty, of playing for a club. Don’t be surprised if we turn our backs on you Torres.

It was your right and choice to go. Its our right to hold our heads up high and say Fernando who? When you played for us, you were brilliant. Your manner of leaving and ill advised comments since, have severely bittered and soured that memory. You have sold your soul for the rouble and a no home made banners, just corporate tat.

I’ll leave you with this slight change of a Churchill insult: But come tomorrow Fernando, we’ll still be Liverpool and you’ll be just another player.

Enough already.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2011, 07:04:16 pm by hinesy »
Yep.

Offline Hinesy

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moved to here.
Yep.

Offline SMD

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Brill.
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Offline El Campeador

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I posted this elsewhere, and I cannot put my thoughts in any clearer fashion. You're selling yourself short if you think this was only a matter of Torres wanting to go to Chelsea. This was a deal that suited *everyone*.

I reckon it had to happen this way. There was only one owner was so desperate as to cough up fifty million quid for a striker at the death, and had the means to do so. Don't kid yourselves; Henry, Werner, Comolli, Dalglish and Nando himself all made this decision. And Roman was the right fat cat at the right place at the right time.

Libpool's Number Nine came here to be part of Rafa's Rojas - a team that created two chances in three years. He didn't sign up for Roy Hodgson or Joe Cole, but he stayed anyway - through the wind, through the rain - until it became obvious that we were in good hands. He waited until we had a good manager that we loved, a 23 year old target with football guts like no other, and owners that would back the club to the hilt before he left. Why do you begrudge him the chance to continue playing with his generation? Do you expect a force of nature like Nando to sit around and brood for years, with no Spaniards around him, with no chance at the Champions League for two seasons, after this club decided to sack the reasons for him joining in the first place?

No, a thousand times no. I did not expect him to stay for another minute past making sure we were in good hands. The system we are building is not one conducive to Nando's skillset, his strengths. We let the manager that got the best out of him Walk Alone, even as he fucking lived down the street. We must suffer the consequence of those actions. Spain North is no more.

Furthermore, he helped us by giving us fifty million big ones to spend on a force of nature, a colossal beast of a 22 year old that will be worth the same 50m when he reaches the age that Nando is now. Welcome to Moneyball, lads. Don't get too attached, and if you still feel attached, look up the name Nomar Garciappara as it relates to NESV.

He had to go, and many slices made up the pizza. Don't just be naive enough to think it was just Nando being a greedy bitch, because you're selling your intellect short if you think that's it.

Offline stueya

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Superb post

Love the insult, will make a perfect banner for when he comes back to Anfield

'come tomorrow Fernando, we'll still be Liverpool and you'll be just another player'
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Offline Hinesy

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El C i kinda agreee with you to a degree but seriously I expected him and Kenny to wait at least til the summer. I think he pushed for it and didn't stop it going through. But above all that, my post is about how we feel about his going and if you're right, the way its been handled, that's how it looks to us.
Yep.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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I posted this elsewhere, and I cannot put my thoughts in any clearer fashion. You're selling yourself short if you think this was only a matter of Torres wanting to go to Chelsea. This was a deal that suited *everyone*.

Excellent post El. Clear and bright.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Wot_Shanks_would_Say

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Good read.

It seems destined that Torres will end up another shevchenko - manager wanting to drop him for poor performances vs owner on a stubborn vanity mission. But Torres of fragile mind will be torn up by this. He will only last 2 years tops at chelsea and then crave a move to barca or milan before finally making an empty gesture by returning to atletico. One day, maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow but soon, he will wake up in a cold sweat utterly sickened by his decision.

Offline kneeys

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Is it me or has the number of quality posts increased greatly on here since the transfer deadline day garbage.
Well in hinesy.
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Offline scatman

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Excellent post El. Clear and bright.
yep great post, same with the OP
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Offline El Campeador

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El C i kinda agreee with you to a degree but seriously I expected him and Kenny to wait at least til the summer. I think he pushed for it and didn't stop it going through. But above all that, my post is about how we feel about his going and if you're right, the way its been handled, that's how it looks to us.

I don't think we could have gotten 50m for him in the summer, and in any case, even in hindsight, I'd much, much rather have 50m for Torres now, plus Suarez and Carroll for the rest of the season than hang onto Torres until then and watch Roman sober up and re-consider his impulsive bid.

I did enjoy your post. I'm just not hurt or disillusioned by Nando's actions. To me, we all bear the cross that some of us hoisted upon our shoulders when they went out to dismantle Rafa's Rojas.

Did we think that pointing to the Wirral for Rafa to Walk Alone would not have consequences?

Offline Hinesy

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To be fair I'm not now disilllusioned by his actions, I was for a while when it broke, more perhaps because it reminded me that football is a business devoid almost entirely of sentiment. And I tend to write about feelings not facts, always have, and on reflection it was a good deal. I think we paid massively over the odds for Carroll but any player is only worth what we're prepared to pay for them I guess.

I agree with this:

 
....and in any case, even in hindsight, I'd much, much rather have 50m for Torres now, plus Suarez and Carroll for the rest of the season than hang onto Torres until then and watch Roman sober up and re-consider his impulsive bid.

and thank fuck we've held onto Pepe re your last statement.
Yep.

Offline Smicer7

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And then he abandons us for the pay cheque and plastic flag n fan

Absolute rubbish. He wanted a chance to win trophies for the first time in his career. Contrary to abandoning principles, he has stuck to them by allowing himself the opportunity to compete at the highest level.

People like Shearer (turning down United) and Le Tissier (never leaving Southampton) took the easy option, opting to fulfill their egos by becoming "legends". But both lacked real ambition.

Offline El Campeador

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I think we paid massively over the odds for Carroll but any player is only worth what we're prepared to pay for them I guess.

It feels good to trust owners - I never trusted Moyes, and never really warmed to the other two. But the more I think about the Carroll deal, the more sense it makes. There is a man who is a futures expert in charge of Liverpool Football Club. You *know* he looked at the numbers when he paid out that money, and you *know* he thought about what the future value of a 22 year old Beast would *probably* be in the next few years.

I'd bet you a fiver that we could sell him on when he is Nando's age for something close to what we paid for him.

Quote
and thank fuck we've held onto Pepe re your last statement.

No chance of someone coming in with stupid money for Pepe. But that's one that the summer transfer window will be far more damaging for.

Offline Andy

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May any trophies he wins be made of plastic.

Offline Paul JH

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So maybe, just maybe we didn't see the real Torres, unhappy, unsettled and wantaway. We saw the man we wanted to.

100% correct. Said the same to a mate when he left, that if he had been ANY other player, even Gerrard sadly, he'd have been getting abuse a long while ago for his attitude and performances. But because he was Torres, the nice humble lad, who was loyal and down to earth and unlike every other footballer, we forgave his dismal performances and shoulder shrugging because he was Torres. We made excuses for them even, blaming the way we played and the manager's in charge.

Now we know what we do, and the way he's behaved, he's done his best to wipe any good feeling we had for him that he himself built up.
Took us for fools, and behaved much MUCH worse than the likes of Alonso and Mascherano (refusing to play in his last game notwithstanding) did.
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Offline Andy

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Absolute rubbish. He wanted a chance to win trophies for the first time in his career. Contrary to abandoning principles, he has stuck to them by allowing himself the opportunity to compete at the highest level.

People like Shearer (turning down United) and Le Tissier (never leaving Southampton) took the easy option, opting to fulfill their egos by becoming "legends". But both lacked real ambition.

We are still in the Europa League.

Offline Hinesy

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Absolute rubbish. He wanted a chance to win trophies for the first time in his career. Contrary to abandoning principles, he has stuck to them by allowing himself the opportunity to compete at the highest level.

People like Shearer (turning down United) and Le Tissier (never leaving Southampton) took the easy option, opting to fulfill their egos by becoming "legends". But both lacked real ambition.


interesting point.
Yep.

Offline pege06

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Great read.
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Offline SMD

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Shearer won trophies and went to Newcastle when they were challenging.

Le Tissier probably knew that he'd struggle without stepping up his game at a bigger club, so stayed with the adulation. His fitness record suggests he wouldn't have done well either.
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Offline Alan_X

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I posted this elsewhere, and I cannot put my thoughts in any clearer fashion. You're selling yourself short if you think this was only a matter of Torres wanting to go to Chelsea. This was a deal that suited *everyone*.


Sorry mate but no. Yes he might have been persuaded to stay on and help with the sale of the club but I don't think that stuff about waiting until we were in good hands had anything to do with his thinking. The only waiting he was doing was until January when Chelsea put in their bid (once City had bought Dzeko and were out of the picture).

Torres showed himself up as a stroppy kid who sulked around for a year because he wanted out (...through the wind and the rain?... not really). I expected better of him and no I don't think it suited everybody. As hinesy says, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of Hodgson but actually, there are plenty of players who don't get everything their own way but they knuckle down and get on with their job.

If he'd at least done that I'd be waving him off and wishing him good luck in his plastic paradise. Fabregas does it for Arsenal and I'll bet that Charlie Adam won't be strolling around with his bottom lip hanging out for the rest of Blackpool's season. Ronaldo was a tart in his last year but he helped United win their third title in a row. Barry didn't ponce around in his last year for Villa after O'Neill refused his transfer to us.

The criticism I've heard on most of the podcasts and radio shows from commentators and ex-players is that Torres didn't "put a shift in" for his club and his team mates for the last eighteen months.

This deal only benefits us because he's been such a pain in the arse for the last season and a half. Kenny (apparently) asked around the dressing room whether Torres should stay or go and the answer was fuck him off asap. You could say that the Torres we had in the first couple of seasons was the best striker in the world and arguably that Torres should have commanded more.

No - Torres in the right frame of mind would be a massive player to have in any team. I'm sad to say that he will probably regain his form with Chelsea (now he's moved up a level to a big club) and we'll see the type of player we all know he could be and worth more than £50 million.

It didn't benefit us to be forced into overpaying for Carroll and the money we got for Torres probably turned Blackpool's head and fucked up the Adam deal.

I think in the long run Carroll will prove his worth and overall we are a better team now than in December... but that's only because Torres was giving nothing for us or the club.
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Offline Haemoglobin

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Good posts.

I'm still a bit sad about how things transpired, if I'm honest. But ever onward...
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Offline Smicer7

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Shearer won trophies and went to Newcastle when they were challenging.

Le Tissier probably knew that he'd struggle without stepping up his game at a bigger club, so stayed with the adulation. His fitness record suggests he wouldn't have done well either.

He won one league title at Blackburn - his only honour of his career. If you're saying that was enough for him, so it didnt matter whether he won anything at Newcastle, then thats a lack of ambition. If you're saying that he thought Newcastle had a better chance of winning trophies than United, then I would say it was poor judgement on his part, but it is highly likely that he moved for other reasons, such as being from Newcastle.

Players like Rooney and Torres are fiercely ambitious, yet they are perceived by fans to be the most disloyal. They rank the ability to win honours above what people think about them, and for me, that's a real ambition and drive that has taken both of them into the world elite of players
« Last Edit: February 2, 2011, 07:50:40 pm by Smicer7 »

Offline Ambrosia

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I posted this elsewhere, and I cannot put my thoughts in any clearer fashion. You're selling yourself short if you think this was only a matter of Torres wanting to go to Chelsea. This was a deal that suited *everyone*.
I agree with your post but why couldn't he put some PR effort in to leaving in good terms? i can only assume he got so arrogant and big headed that he thought whichever way he left, Liverpool fans wouldn't understand.
« Last Edit: February 2, 2011, 07:50:42 pm by Ambrosia »

Offline WavertreeRed

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But come tomorrow Fernando, we’ll still be Liverpool and you’ll be just another player.


Loving this. We are Liverpool Football Club and people will remember us long after they've forgotten any bit part players in our history.
Will you please kindly refrain from all this rational common sense bollocks.

Someone has said something on a social networking site, so it must be true.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Excellent post. Eloquent and dignified and hard to contradict.
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Offline redpride9

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Love the last few lines of your piece mate. Superb.

He is just another player now. Sums it up very well.
We won it 5 times........

Offline bobapcoed

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Anceloti is not brilliant at rebuilding sides, look at AC when they got too old. Probably not this year (unless they have another catastrophic crash) but hopefully next their star will fade and ours is rising. I can honestly see us finishing in the top 4 and them not. If they don't win the CL this year he's out anyway. I will laugh my cock off. Off you go nando.

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He won one league title at Blackburn - his only honour of his career. If you're saying that was enough for him, so it didnt matter whether he won anything at Newcastle, then thats a lack of ambition. If you're saying that he thought Newcastle had a better chance of winning trophies than United, then I would say it was poor judgement on his part, but it is highly likely that he moved for other reasons, such as being from Newcastle.

Players like Rooney and Torres are fiercely ambitious, yet they are perceived by fans to be the most disloyal. They rank the ability to win honours above what people think about them, and for me, that's a real ambition and drive that has taken both of them into the world elite of players

It was almost enough to tempt Gerrard and if Torres had an ounce of intelligence, he would see just how fucked Chelsea will be as a result of FFP. They've almost no leeway when it comes to spending a percentage of their turnover. They need to jettison most of their ageing stars to get them off the wage bill.
As someone pointed out, they made a loss having won the double, without signing or sacking anyone and before signing Torres and Luiz.
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Offline Alan_X

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Players like Rooney and Torres are fiercely ambitious, yet they are perceived by fans to be the most disloyal. They rank the ability to win honours above what people think about them, and for me, that's a real ambition and drive that has took both of them into the world elite of players

The world elite of players includes those who have a belief in themselves that can drive a team on and in some cases win silverware through sheer force of character. I wouldn't include either Rooney or Torres in that.

The pair of them have suspect temperaments in my opinion. Ronaldo is an utter c*nt but his goals dragged United to three titles in a row and a European Cup. Maradona won the league for Napoli and the World Cup for Argentina without having a team of superstars around him. Torres is a great striker, the best on his day but if things aren't right for him he'll get the hump and give up as we've seen ourselves.

Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Smicer7

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It was almost enough to tempt Gerrard and if Torres had an ounce of intelligence, he would see just how fucked Chelsea will be as a result of FFP. They've almost no leeway when it comes to spending a percentage of their turnover. They need to jettison most of their ageing stars to get them off the wage bill.
As someone pointed out, they made a loss having won the double, without signing or sacking anyone and before signing Torres and Luiz.

I have to admit that I havent really studied the implications of FFP, but I highly doubt it will have much of an impact on the status quo (even if it should theoretically). How long will it take for the impacts of FFP to take effect, since Torres will be quite happy to have instant success for 2-3 years, and move on to another club if Chelsea suffer badly under FFP

Offline El Campeador

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You do realize that everything you said is flipped upside the head if Henry-Comolli-Kenny wanted to sell him? Fifty million turns a lot of thinking upside the head.

And again, it's better this way. Paying 35m for Carroll or paying 25m for Carroll over 5 years isn't a massive difference, and in any case, like I alluded to earlier, it's a futures trader doing the numbers now. "Overpaying" for him now may not be an accurate analysis in 5 years time, and I'm absolutely confident with someone armed with the acumen of Henry when judging future value of assets.

If you think we overpaid and could have saved money for Carroll, how come that doesn't apply to Roman and Nando?

Offline bleedsred1978

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yep great post, same with the OP
Absolute rubbish. He wanted a chance to win trophies for the first time in his career. Contrary to abandoning principles, he has stuck to them by allowing himself the opportunity to compete at the highest level.

People like Shearer (turning down United) and Le Tissier (never leaving Southampton) took the easy option, opting to fulfill their egos by becoming "legends". But both lacked real ambition.

All the above have merit. More complicated than it seems eh.
From here on in its all FSG's doing. Good or bad they will stand or fall by the decisions they have made in the summer of 2012. Lets hope they have gotten it right.

Offline Guz-kop

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We on the other hand live in a world where its a moral crime to change teams.

Except when it suits us. Didn't see any articles like this when Torres left his boyhood club to come to Liverpool in search of silverware
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Offline Number 7

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I’ve been quiet on this for a few days and I’ve finally decided to have my say.

I won’t begrudge Torres his opportunity to win trophies. I can understand that he is a professional and he wishes to play at the pinnacle of the game. In the Champions League, challenging for the title, etc. I don’t hate him for that. He’s given us 4 years, but quite honestly the Hodgson debacle and flirting  in the relegation zone was the nail in the coffin for him. He knew that it could well take us 3 years to compete again and I think he made his mind up in November/December that if the offer came in he was off. He probably did get persuaded to stay in the summer by being told of promises for big spending and investment. Unfortunately it was never going to transpire that quickly because of the uncertain ownership situation at the time.

I do feel hurt and betrayed because he deserted us in mid-season when he could have stayed and seen out the remaining 4 months of the season. It’s not like an offer wouldn’t have come in for him in the summer. But obviously he felt he had to go and in fact I think he’s wanted to go to Chelsea for a long long time. You could see it on his face in that interview. The chance to win trophies again, the players at that club, the fact that they are always competing, and the vacant number 9. He probably feels that by going there it’s not a dagger in our hearts as it would have been with him going to City or United. With Suarez coming he knew that players were coming in. The decision he probably made in the November was cemented in January. He was just waiting for Chelsea to come in. He knew in his mind he was gone a long time ago.

I’ve known for a long time he would go. In fact I even started a thread here in November stating that we have to start getting used to life without Torres. And I’ve come to terms with the fact we may not have got 50 million for him in the summer and if he doesn’t want to be here it’s best if we let go. We held on tight with clenched fists believing that we would never let go, believing that he was always one of ours, but we were only fooling ourselves. Not because we hated him, but because deep down we always knew it would happen. We just didn’t want to believe it until it was exposed to our own eyes.

On Monday when I came back from work and told my son, he was literally in tears. A few weeks earlier he had put up a poster of Torres in his room. He was his idol, like millions of other kids around the world. Whenever he played Fifa11 on his PSP he always had faith Torres would score if the team was losing. I tried to explain to him that players come and players and go, but that will he be a Liverpool fan for life. I told him his next idol will come along and we will forget about Torres.

I honestly wish him the best of luck, he was a great servant to us. But yes he ditched us when we needed him the most and that I will never forget. But I understand his reasoning for going.
YWNA

Offline Smicer7

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I’ve been quiet on this for a few days and I’ve finally decided to have my say.

I won’t begrudge Torres his opportunity to win trophies. I can understand that he is a professional and he wishes to play at the pinnacle of the game. In the Champions League, challenging for the title, etc. I don’t hate him for that. He’s given us 4 years, but quite honestly the Hodgson debacle and flirting  in the relegation zone was the nail in the coffin for him. He knew that it could well take us 3 years to compete again and I think he made his mind up in November/December that if the offer came in he was off. He probably did get persuaded to stay in the summer by being told of promises for big spending and investment. Unfortunately it was never going to transpire that quickly because of the uncertain ownership situation at the time.

Had he been ineligible to play in the Champions League, then he may well have seen out the season at Liverpool, as surely he realises how difficult it will be to catch United in the league. By moving in this window, he gets an "extra" year in the champions league, so it may well be a shrewd move on his part

Offline Jagdip

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I fucking loved that post, especially the ending. Come tomorrow.. Fucking immense.

Thank you.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Uc_XSdOLFSU?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_GB" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Uc_XSdOLFSU?fs=1&amp;amp;hl=en_GB</a>
« Last Edit: February 2, 2011, 08:22:02 pm by Jagdip »

Offline Corkboy

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Lovely OP, Hinesy.

El C, I don't disagree with much in your reply post except the notion that Torres was waiting for the club to get settled. He was waiting for the transfer window.

Offline Hinesy

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Except when it suits us. Didn't see any articles like this when Torres left his boyhood club to come to Liverpool in search of silverware

Sorry Guz, I meant about fans, us normal punters changing teams.
Yep.

Offline eirwen

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Except when it suits us. Didn't see any articles like this when Torres left his boyhood club to come to Liverpool in search of silverware
And Suarez, Carroll, Adam etc, we hoped they would put the deal through by submitting a transfer request. It's quite hypocritical if you think about it. Because we are one of the biggest clubs in the world, we expect people to want to come here, leaving here however is another story.