Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Macedonian_Red]

ABLETT DELIGHTED WITH NGOG

Steve Hunter 21 January 2009

Gary Ablett was full of praise for David Ngog after the French striker scored twice to help Liverpool Reserves to a 2-0 win over Middlesbrough.

Both of his goals were made by superb through balls from Daniel Pacheco and Ngog was clinical as Ablett's side returned to winning ways in their first game of 2009.
 
"We know David can score goals as we see that every day in training and we are trying to build up his confidence," said Ablett.
 
"Hopefully he can go on and get more goals now.
 
"We've trained quite well since we gave the boys a break over Christmas and told them to go away and think about what they wanted to achieve here. They have come back and shown a great attitude.
 
"It was a difficult game and I thought Middlesbrough played very well but we got more control of the game in the second half, scored two good goals and deserved the victory.
 
"Their goalkeeper played well and made some good saves. We could have been a bit more clinical at times but it was nice to see us create those chances and play some good football."
 
Ablett also reserved credit for Jay Spearing who played at centre half because the likes of Martin Kelly, Daniel Ayala and Ronald Huth were all unavailable because of injury and international duty.
 
"We opted to play Jay at the back because he reads the game very well, is a great competitor and can spot a pass," he said.
 
"I'm hoping we don't have to use him there many more times in the future because he's an attacking central midfield player and an important player for us, but he did a good job for the team."
 
Brazilian striker Vitor Flora finally made his bow for the second string after receiving international clearance when he came on as a 77th minute substitute for Pacheco.
 
Recent signing, Icelandic youngster Victor Palsson was an unused substitute.
 
"The clearance came through for Vitor last week so it was nice to give him some minutes on the field," said Ablett.
 
"Victor hasn't trained for seven weeks but we were short of numbers so he was on the bench in case we needed to use him. He will feature more for us in the future."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N162931090121-0927.htm

[Manila Kop]

Really? Where? When? Are we shipping out Brouwer, Simon etc or was this just wishful thinking we're promoting them?

Well, we've stopped playing Brouwer so that's a start.

[Manila Kop]

ABLETT DELIGHTED WITH NGOG
Steve Hunter 21 January 2009

Gary Ablett was full of praise for David Ngog after the French striker scored twice to help Liverpool Reserves to a 2-0 win over Middlesbrough.

Both of his goals were made by superb through balls from Daniel Pacheco and Ngog was clinical as Ablett's side returned to winning ways in their first game of 2009.
 
"We know David can score goals as we see that every day in training and we are trying to build up his confidence," said Ablett.
 
"Hopefully he can go on and get more goals now.

I tend to feel that N'Gog is underrated on RAWK because he's been tagged as one or all of the following:

1) Another opportunistic cheap transfer by Rafa for an unknown player in a weaker league
2) Another mediocre foreign youngster keeping the likes of Eccleston and LDV out of the reserves
3) As the lad getting an undeserved place in the first team ahead of fan favorite Krisztian Nemeth
4) As the player who keeps getting subbed in for our big summer purchase Robbie Keane

Most of these criticisms are unmerited and no fault of his own.

His finishing has been decent with quite a few thumping finishes using both feet.  He's shown good composure, has enough pace, and has a good physique.  While Nemeth is obviously higher-rated, I don't think N'Gog deserves to be seen as chopped liver.

[JP-65]

I tend to feel that N'Gog is underrated on RAWK because he's been tagged as one or all of the following:

1) Another opportunistic cheap transfer by Rafa for an unknown player in a weaker league
2) Another mediocre foreign youngster keeping the likes of Eccleston and LDV out of the reserves
3) As the lad getting an undeserved place in the first team ahead of fan favorite Krisztian Nemeth
4) As the player who keeps getting subbed in for our big summer purchase Robbie Keane

Most of these criticisms are unmerited and no fault of his own.

His finishing has been decent with quite a few thumping finishes using both feet.  He's shown good composure, has enough pace, and has a good physique.  While Nemeth is obviously higher-rated, I don't think N'Gog deserves to be seen as chopped liver.

He took his chances last night, Nemeth didn't.

I like Nemeth a lot, but IMO he's still needs development before he's ready for the 1st team, as does Ngog. 

[the_red_pill]

I tend to feel that N'Gog is underrated on RAWK because he's been tagged as one or all of the following:

1) Another opportunistic cheap transfer by Rafa for an unknown player in a weaker league
2) Another mediocre foreign youngster keeping the likes of Eccleston and LDV out of the reserves
3) As the lad getting an undeserved place in the first team ahead of fan favorite Krisztian Nemeth
4) As the player who keeps getting subbed in for our big summer purchase Robbie Keane

Most of these criticisms are unmerited and no fault of his own.

His finishing has been decent with quite a few thumping finishes using both feet.  He's shown good composure, has enough pace, and has a good physique.  While Nemeth is obviously higher-rated, I don't think N'Gog deserves to be seen as chopped liver.

N'gog's clearly shown glimpses of his skill, composure and finishing ability. The lad appears a cut above. I think it's just confidence. He also needs better service. to be honest, he has been starved of it. In that match, he was the focal point in our attack and Pacheco gift-wrapped and delivered the ball to him superbly.

The lad needs to be on the bench more and involved in the latter half of games more often. As long as Gerrard does not play at CM- Keane and N'gog is going to find service hard to come by.

[the_red_pill]

.tv gave MOTM to Ngog 

Confidence booster, methinks. The lad needs it and Ablett has said as much. The playas may change, but da game doesn't. It's hustlin', baby.

[rowan_d]

N'gog's clearly shown glimpses of his skill, composure and finishing ability. The lad appears a cut above. I think it's just confidence. He also needs better service. to be honest, he has been starved of it. In that match, he was the focal point in our attack and Pacheco gift-wrapped and delivered the ball to him superbly.

The lad needs to be on the bench more and involved in the latter half of games more often. As long as Gerrard does not play at CM- Keane and N'gog is going to find service hard to come by.

Obviously pre-season games have to be taken with a pimch of salt, but I saw enough in his debut against Rangers to believe that he could have a future with us. He's 19, and hovering between the Reserves and the full team, which isn't bad going.

[Uhoh AureliOs]

N'gog is a vast improvement on Brouwer.

Sorry Jordy, but David looks more promising and I'd rather our efforts went into improving and developing him further rather than you.

[hassinator]

As for Flora, given the few minutes he played he was average but he's not as bad as some people had hinted he was.  Certainly, he looks quite good with his left foot.  Still can't help feeling that I'd rather see Lauri Dalla Valle and Nathan Ecclestone given an opportunity.

instead of whom?  nemeth?  pacheco?  n'gog?

i'm keen to see them move up too but you can't fault the lads ahead of them

i think it will be next season before we see them take the step up unless there is a mass loan out very soon

[hassinator]

ablett's comments about flora were interesting too:

Brazilian striker Vitor Flora finally made his bow for the second string after receiving international clearance when he came on as a 77th minute substitute for Pacheco.
 
"The clearance came through for Vitor last week so it was nice to give him some minutes on the field," said Ablett.

some people seemed to suggest he just wasn't good enough and it was a mistake so sign him but clearly permit issues where holding him back.

now he can play we can actually judger if he's good enough or not.
 

[JP-65]

ablett's comments about flora were interesting too:

Brazilian striker Vitor Flora finally made his bow for the second string after receiving international clearance when he came on as a 77th minute substitute for Pacheco.
 
"The clearance came through for Vitor last week so it was nice to give him some minutes on the field," said Ablett.

some people seemed to suggest he just wasn't good enough and it was a mistake so sign him but clearly permit issues where holding him back.

now he can play we can actually judger if he's good enough or not.
 

I was going to post something similar, but I'm so tired of the negativity in all the threads on this site these days.

He only played 10 minutes last night, but he's quite a physical specimen.  I think he had 3 shots during this time, all with his left foot, so he's 2 footed, and had one very nice take-down.  Nothing spectacular, but looked decent.

[hassinator]

I was going to post something similar, but I'm so tired of the negativity in all the threads on this site these days.

He only played 10 minutes last night, but he's quite a physical specimen.  I think he had 3 shots during this time, all with his left foot, so he's 2 footed, and had one very nice take-down.  Nothing spectacular, but looked decent.

amen to ending negativity.  just watched the hilights and have to say n'gog's finishing was top drawer; simon looked lively and pacheco's passing is amazing.

in terms of his size is he that different to paul scholes?  he's only 18 years old so plenty of time to fill out as i well know - i've been uploading old pictures on to facebook today and its truly horrifying to realise how much bigger you get as you get older

[the_red_pill]

amen to ending negativity.  just watched the hilights and have to say n'gog's finishing was top drawer; simon looked lively and pacheco's passing is amazing.

in terms of his size is he that different to paul scholes?  he's only 18 years old so plenty of time to fill out as i well know - i've been uploading old pictures on to facebook today and its truly horrifying to realise how much bigger you get as you get older

That's the basis for his MOtM on .tv(apart from the obvious bigging-up). It came down to N'gog's finishing/composure or Pach's creativity/vision.

In all his finishes thusfar, he has looked world-class. Put it this way- Kuyt, Barros, Cisse, Craig Douglas Bellamy and all the other misfits we've had, pale in comparison when we look at how they took their goals.

[royhendo]

Really? Where? When? Are we shipping out Brouwer, Simon etc or was this just wishful thinking we're promoting them?

Well, the general idea was that there's talent in abundance. But feel free to piss on our backs and tell us it's raining, as it's all you ever seem to do.

[royhendo]

ablett's comments about flora were interesting too:

Brazilian striker Vitor Flora finally made his bow for the second string after receiving international clearance when he came on as a 77th minute substitute for Pacheco.
 
"The clearance came through for Vitor last week so it was nice to give him some minutes on the field," said Ablett.

some people seemed to suggest he just wasn't good enough and it was a mistake so sign him but clearly permit issues where holding him back.

now he can play we can actually judger if he's good enough or not.

Looks like Ablett reads Dave Usher's stuff from time to time eh?

[Sinos]

Looks like Ablett reads Dave Usher's stuff from time to time eh?

That was Hassinator's opinion and not anything said by Ablett.

[MagicB8all]

So Flora is a striker? - in his videos he looked more like a LW/LA in the Ronaldo mode

[royhendo]

That was Hassinator's opinion and not anything said by Ablett.

LOL right enough... looks like Hassinator reads Dave Usher's stuff from time to time eh?

[hassinator]

LOL right enough... looks like Hassinator reads Dave Usher's stuff from time to time eh?

[JoeTwerp]

not sure if there is a thread on it elsewhere but in America the South American U20s are on tv over here and Huth looked great against Brazil. It was nice to see him in a game when he was up against it constantly and against good oppo as well.  Thought Insua played well too, missed a golden chance to win it late and as usual had the one case of getting skinned and caught out, but captained the side and played well.  The Argies were sorely missing Piatti and Di Santo

[Car]

Not sure if this is posted before.  I come across this blog accidentally.  It looks like some Chinese fans are making this blog about our youth/reserve players.  Take a look if you understand simplified Chinese:

http://www.young-reds.com/

The blog is nicely done. They translate the news, match reports, and interviews of the young players into Chinese.  They even translated some writings in Nemeth's blog from Hungarian to Chinese.  I really appreciate their efforts.

[Manila Kop]

Well, the general idea was that there's talent in abundance. But feel free to piss on our backs and tell us it's raining, as it's all you ever seem to do.

"It's raining kids, hallelujah" doesn't seem to be Strawberry's favorite version of the song Roy.

amen to ending negativity.  just watched the hilights and have to say n'gog's finishing was top drawer; simon looked lively and pacheco's passing is amazing.

in terms of his size is he that different to paul scholes?  he's only 18 years old so plenty of time to fill out as i well know - i've been uploading old pictures on to facebook today and its truly horrifying to realise how much bigger you get as you get older

N'Gog's finishing is hugely underestimated.  What I like after seeing his goals is that it usually looks simple - the goal yesterday was first touch control, spin, second touch smash the ball in.  I think the goal against Rangers was similar wasn't it?  Nothing fancy, but totally unexpected - a thunderbolt in the middle of a cloudless day.  The instinct and the talent are there, it just needs nurturing.

I'm beginning to think about what Dani's best position is, as I think some here have criticised his finishing - seems like he's a better player "in the hole" feeding the likes of Nemeth or N'Gog.  In short, a younger version of the player Robbie Keane should be for the first team. 

[Pankaka]

Not sure if this is posted before.  I come across this blog accidentally.  It looks like some Chinese fans are making this blog about our youth/reserve players.  Take a look if you understand simplified Chinese:

http://www.young-reds.com/

The blog is nicely done. They translate the news, match reports, and interviews of the young players into Chinese.  They even translated some writings in Nemeth's blog from Hungarian to Chinese.  I really appreciate their efforts.

This looks like the english version... http://liverpoolacademy.blogspot.com/

[liverpoolfcmike]

Pacheco looks the real deal. His pass for N'Gog's second was perfection.

[iloverafa]

I was really pleased for N'Gog last night.  He's had a lot of criticism for no particular reason but showed last night, as he has before, that he can take a chance. 

[JP-65]

"It's raining kids, hallelujah" doesn't seem to be Strawberry's favorite version of the song Roy.

Which goes against all theories of developing effective organizations and talent.

You need to have as wide and deep a talent base as you can afford to ensure you have a talented and effective management team (the 1st team in footie terms).

So if all you have is a "stove pipe" of talent (ie tall and thin) then you'd better be extraordinarily good in identifying who's in that stovepipe, otherwise you're going to have weaknesses in your 1st team (or have to go out and buy/ "recruit" them).

It's much better to have a "pyramid" of talent (ie wide at the base, narrowing to the top), that way you have a competition for spots up the chain, and can chose the best (who are all trained in your culture, management systems etc) to fill the top spots when they come available, or when the talent below is better than the talent at the top.

So how do you handle a "pyramid" of talent in a football club context?

You have to have a development plan for each one of the individuals.  It will include elements of skills development and experience development.  Each individual will have performance goals, data based as well as observation based, which they are measured on, focused on skills development and accomplishments.  Each individual will also have a plan which details what experiences are required for that individual to progress, which will include the physical, mental and experiential developments required to progress to the next level.  For example, Pacheco would have a plan for developing his physique and strength, Darby would have a plan that takes him out on loan as he's never experienced anything outside of this club etc etc.

A 'pyramid' of talent can only be handled with a very active loaning program, which fits anyway as the gap between 1st team and reserve level football is too wide now for only the "most talented" to traverse on a "straight up" basis.  Most promotions to the 1st team should come via "lateral" assignments that are progressively more difficult (ie going out on loan to a 1st division team, then a championship level team, then to a lower level PL team).

SF, and others who complain about having too many kids are focused on the wrong issue, IMO you can never have too many kids in the system, the more appropriate question is whether they are being developed properly through a rigorous and scientifically planned, implemented, and managed "Talent Development Plan".

[Manila Kop]

SF, and others who complain about having too many kids are focused on the wrong issue, IMO you can never have too many kids in the system, the more appropriate question is whether they are being developed properly through a rigorous and scientifically planned, implemented, and managed "Talent Development Plan".

To parrot a time-tested Royhendo phrase, excellent stuff JP-65.    And also echoes some of my own thinking on why particular players are sent out on loan as part of their 'development plans' - I'll have to dig that post up.

Quoted that last bit because it's the crux of the matter isn't it.  The doubters question not just whether there is a development plan being implemented - in fact they ignore it.  They either think that there's an inherent flaw in our recruitment system (i.e. Usher's 'too many mediocre kids scouted by Macia') or that Rafa's judgment on a young player's readiness for the first team is inferior to their own (i.e. 'can't understand why Nemeth isn't being played ahead of N'Gog').  Heaven forbid that the professionals actually KNOW what they're doing.

[JP-65]

To parrot a time-tested Royhendo phrase, excellent stuff JP-65.    And also echoes some of my own thinking on why particular players are sent out on loan as part of their 'development plans' - I'll have to dig that post up.

Quoted that last bit because it's the crux of the matter isn't it.  The doubters question not just whether there is a development plan being implemented - in fact they ignore it.  They either think that there's an inherent flaw in our recruitment system (i.e. Usher's 'too many mediocre kids scouted by Macia') or that Rafa's judgment on a young player's readiness for the first team is inferior to their own (i.e. 'can't understand why Nemeth isn't being played ahead of N'Gog').  Heaven forbid that the professionals actually KNOW what they're doing.

Thanks MK.

Most of all this stuff is measurable. 

I have no knowledge of footie recruiting systems, but I'm sure you could put a system in place (if its not already there) that keeps all the data that club management views as important activities for the club scouts (ie how many matches attended, how many leads generated, how many leads become active leads for the chief scout, how many leads become acquisition targets, how many leads become acquired targets, how many leads become reserve players, how many leads become first team players) with all of these activities given a point scale for importance, and then tallied up and you can force rank your scouts, drop the bottom 5% and replace with better each year etc etc.

The individual's development plan becomes a key part of the assessment of the reserves and youth teams management.  Did they implement what they committed to do, if not, why not, what where the obstacles preventing the plan being implemented etc etc.  Provides a basis to continually improve the management of the talent pipeline.

The last one is the easiest, he's the head honcho, he gets paid big bucks to make those calls, and is a key element of his success or failure!

[royhendo]

Anyone watching "The Academy"? An interview with Piet Hamberg is on now - talking about the way they organise the programme with the different levels (technical, physical, tactical, mental... and the reasons why at certain times they appear tired, then not so tired a fortnight later... and so forth). I'll try and transcribe it, but dead man walking or not, and in spite of Rafa's demands for direct control, it's an insight into how one experienced man sees this working.

Bizarre to see such a lengthy interview aired though, given the current situation at the club. Who has editorial control at the TV channel?

John Owens is interviewed shortly...

[Trousers]

Piet Hamburg's contract is up soon.
I don't expect it to be renewed.
Apparently even Parry has admitted defeat with him.

[royhendo]

So people are saying Trousers - three people who think they're in charge of the whole shooting match.

[b_joseph]

Piet Hamburg's contract is up soon.
I don't expect it to be renewed.
Apparently even Parry has admitted defeat with him.

What, so we lose Highway and now are going to throw out Piet?

Our club is all over the place.

[Trousers]

So people are saying Trousers - three people who think they're in charge of the whole shooting match.

What, so we lose Highway and now are going to throw out Piet?

Our club is all over the place.

Heighway deserved the boot, but Piet Hamberg was never the right choice. Last I heard there were factions at the academy telling the kids to do one thing while the other faction were telling them another.

It's a total mess because while Melwood & Kirkby aren't pulling in the same direction, Kirkby itself is fucked with internal politics. The solution would be to fuck Hamberg off bring back Frank Mcparland drag Mcauley & Owens into the office and tell them in no uncertain terms who exactly the fucking boss is and that they'll do exactly as they're told, and if they don't like it they can go and follow Heighway.

[royhendo]

What do you make of Rafa's demands for involvement Trousers?

[b_joseph]

I must admit, when Piet said that the 14's were not very good and were a problem. I was kinda surprised that he just came out and said that.

Trousers, are you involved within the club or is this just something you've been told from within. Sorry if that has been asked already and I am too lazy to read up.

[Trousers]

No I'm not involved in the club in any way, but Hamberg's position has been common knowledge for a while.
I'd heard rumours floating around and then Dave Usher's piece came out, so it seemed to back up what I was told.

To answer Roy's question I think it's impossible that the manager shouldn't have any input. Especially in our country where we can't produce the same quantity of top players as in say Spain or Italy. So what players we can produce should if at all possible be suited to the team's needs.

I believe the academy must be flexible and not be totally rigid in a system or style, be it Rafa's or anyone else's. Our academy up to now has failed and that's irrefutable. Something has to give whether that's with Rafa taking control, a third party or a delegate chosen by Rafa.

Rafa has experience with Youth teams and you can probably understand his immense frustration at how the academy is run. Whether you agree with how he's gone about trying to gain control of the academy is another matter. Personally I don't because he's run roughshod over a lot of kids futures.

What it really comes down to though is that Rafa wants Arrigo Sacchi's Milan system at Liverpool at all levels, a system that Sacchi credits to Joe Fagan after he had a long conversation with him. At the end of the day is that such a bad thing?

I'd just like to say though that the brightest starlets at Kirkby WILL go to Melwood. Pepper & Dalla Valle will not be sacrificed by anyone at the club regardless of any internal politics.

[Manila Kop]

Brouwer loaned out to a Belgian club - who'd have thunk. Perhaps the clearout is beginning. Article in the transfer forum, on my phone so can't copy paste.

Edit: Dutch, not Belgian. Jupiler League?

[Dr Cornwallis]

Brouwer loaned out to a Belgian club - who'd have thunk. Perhaps the clearout is beginning. Article in the transfer forum, on my phone so can't copy paste.

Edit: Dutch, not Belgian. Jupiler League?

Let him go, he doesn't look the part.  What?
Yeah, I've seen him in a few games now on TV, he just doesn't seem to have much in way of great ability or pace.

[joe fitz red]

Let him go, he doesn't look the part.  What?
Yeah, I've seen him in a few games now on TV, he just doesn't seem to have much in way of great ability or pace.

a very poor mans horse face

[Stanfo]

My son is at the academy so I see the politics and goings on at very close quarters on an almost daily basis. My take on the situation is that there are far to many people who think they are important and yet do not seem to be acountable to anyone based on results achieved, either scores or player development.

Hamberg talks a good fight yet is hardly ever seen at night, when the non scholars train and has only watched matches maybe 4 or 5 times in 18 months. Heighway while no longer involved still turns up on the occasional evening and quite regularly on Sundays.

The recruitment/scouting in the 9-14 age groups seems to be poor to say the least with the development squad of non signed players in my sons age group being so far behind the signed team as to be embarrassing, as evidenced by a recent game between the teams.

Most parents I speak to would seriously consider a move to the likes of Everton, Bolton, City if the chance came about purely because they know that the situation at the academy is so unstable and the policy is to just bring in foreign kids whether good enough or not.