Author Topic: Defending Set Pieces  (Read 27455 times)

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2013, 02:22:10 pm »
I was interested in BR's comment 'I was disappointed because we didn't defend the corner strong enough'.  To me, this was a direct criticism of Skirtl and maybe why he's resorting to man-handling the attacker e.g. misinterpretation of being 'strong'.   I was surprised that Skirtl was detailed to mark Kompany, as I thought Sakho would be better equipped...?
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2013, 02:33:59 pm »
It was interesting watching Kompany defend corners. He has a hand on his man but it's to keep touch tight, so he knows where the guy is. He's then in range to attack the ball against his man. He doesn't pull the man down, just keeps within touching distance at all times.

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2013, 02:51:03 pm »
To me this seems our biggest weakness, and could be improved,

 Why are we not training till dusk on just going over and over and over and over on practicing set piece defending ? 

 
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2013, 03:30:42 pm »
To me this seems our biggest weakness, and could be improved,

 Why are we not training till dusk on just going over and over and over and over on practicing set piece defending ? 

 

Against who Suarez, Coutinho and Sterling.
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #124 on: December 27, 2013, 03:33:09 pm »
Wouldn't mind seeing Touré partnered with Sakho as both are aggressive headers of the ball.
its not been about being aggresive though,its just poor marking from set pieces.

Skrtel has been very aggressive,just poor from corners and free kicks.


Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #125 on: December 27, 2013, 04:00:09 pm »
(snip)

 Presumably corners are easier to prepare for with training, and the variability from corner to corner is not as great as with attacking free kicks - after all, a corner is always delivered from the same place, and the trajectory can only really be a finite (but large) number of possibilities while it would seem the possibilities from free kicks are seemingly infinite in variability, and there are additional variables for a keeper to consider his position, whether personnel are used in a wall etc. which probably makes it harder to prepare pre-match. This would probably explain why they generally don't yield many goals as free kicks.

It's all about that :)

The trajectory is just not really conducive to consistently getting a decent shot on goal. Transfer the same situation to open play, and think about a winger who beats their fullback, and gets to the line. What are their best options to create a shot? The two most common are the drive across the 6 yard box, and the cut-back pass to the penalty spot for a late running midfielder. Neither of those two options are viable from a corner, even though the position of the ball would dictate that they are the best ones. So the next viable option is to cross it. But even here, you are going against the grain. An inswinger is theoretically easier to defend, because it is coming onto the defenders, but away from the running attackers. An outswinger is harder to defend, but easier to attack, because it is arriving at the attackers head, so will generate more power. That's why height is important for inswinging corners (because you really only need to redirect the ball) and power and strength is better for outswingers (because you need to generate power at times from a counter-movement jump -jumping in one direction while heading in the other). So in technical terms, corners are just not set up to be consistent creators of shots, which is why some teams will play corners short and try to get a better angle for the cross. The fact that you can't be offside for a corner for the first kick also means teams will pack the box, so now we have a tactical overload issue. So, ultimately, corners are not really a great source of goals, so as long as you are trying to defend them even at a basic level, you will concede +/- the average of goals per season from corners. So they aren't as big a worry as free kicks are, because free kicks are from better and deeper angles, involve the offside line, and allow for the creation of 1v1's and timed runs to break the line.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #126 on: December 27, 2013, 04:03:41 pm »
I'd like to see us defend by attack.

Get Suarez, Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson and Sturridge out the box ready to counter attack. Pace and power - let the opposition decide what gambles they want to take.

Not a bad idea at all. They might get one goal or shot off. But the one they miss and see us rampaging at their 2 fullbacks sitting back with our 4-5 attackers will make teams stop putting numbers in the box, which makes a clearer area for Mignolet to claim the ball.
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Offline Euskadi

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #127 on: December 27, 2013, 04:06:26 pm »
Not a bad idea at all. They might get one goal or shot off. But the one they miss and see us rampaging at their 2 fullbacks sitting back with our 4-5 attackers will make teams stop putting numbers in the box, which makes a clearer area for Mignolet to claim the ball.

Didn't City do something similar albeit with 2-3 attackers yesterday?
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #128 on: December 27, 2013, 05:02:11 pm »
Not a bad idea at all. They might get one goal or shot off. But the one they miss and see us rampaging at their 2 fullbacks sitting back with our 4-5 attackers will make teams stop putting numbers in the box, which makes a clearer area for Mignolet to claim the ball.

Someone kicked off recently with something like 7 players pushing ahead of the ball from the start, wrong footing the other team who weren't expecting something so obviously insane and ending the move in a goal. I've no idea what happened in the longer term to that team, but left field ideas like that are entertaining to read about.
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Offline Keita Success

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #129 on: December 27, 2013, 05:11:35 pm »
Someone kicked off recently with something like 7 players pushing ahead of the ball from the start, wrong footing the other team who weren't expecting something so obviously insane and ending the move in a goal. I've no idea what happened in the longer term to that team, but left field ideas like that are entertaining to read about.
2nd Division in Germany or a reserve team or something. Think it's more of a Fifa tactic imo.

Skrtel is pathetic with set-pieces. Needs addressing. End of.

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #130 on: December 27, 2013, 05:30:54 pm »
I was interested in BR's comment 'I was disappointed because we didn't defend the corner strong enough'.  To me, this was a direct criticism of Skirtl and maybe why he's resorting to man-handling the attacker e.g. misinterpretation of being 'strong'.   I was surprised that Skirtl was detailed to mark Kompany, as I thought Sakho would be better equipped...?

Totally agree with your last sentence. Anyone else notice who was marking Kompany on the free kick prior to the corner from which we conceded? It was Luis Suarez. I can't understand it, to be honest. Our best player in the aerial duals should be marking their biggest threat from all set pieces, including corners. It's as much an issue with the defensive management as as it is with the player personnel, for mine.

Offline N0rnIr0nRed

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #131 on: December 27, 2013, 05:36:55 pm »
Other than the grappling Skrtel does at corners, he was very very good against City. Some of those sliding interceptions were brilliant. I think his positioning at set-pieces is generally fine but conversely he can be reluctant to push up the defensive line when we initiate a counter-attack and i think Agger is better at marshalling him in this aspect of the game.

You would think it would be the easy part of the improving his game to improve his tactics from set-pieces. He grapples week in week out, and rarely wins the ball because he is more focused on trying to subdue the attacker.

Frustrating to leak a goal from a corner or a free kick and it's something Brendan and the team will be readily working on to improve.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #132 on: December 27, 2013, 05:38:11 pm »
Totally agree with your last sentence. Anyone else notice who was marking Kompany on the free kick prior to the corner from which we conceded? It was Luis Suarez. I can't understand it, to be honest. Our best player in the aerial duals should be marking their biggest threat from all set pieces, including corners. It's as much an issue with the defensive management as as it is with the player personnel, for mine.

Here is a chart with the relative heights of each of the starting 11 outfield players from both teams. I would say marking-for-height was a part of why players marked who they marked. It probably depended on who the taker was that dictated who Suarez marked.

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Offline Red Bird

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #133 on: December 27, 2013, 05:41:49 pm »
Against who Suarez, Coutinho and Sterling.
We also have Ilori, Kelly, Skrtel, Agger, Sakho, Toure and Gerrard. Who says corners have to be practised against forwards?

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #134 on: December 27, 2013, 05:45:54 pm »
Here is a chart with the relative heights of each of the starting 11 outfield players from both teams. I would say marking-for-height was a part of why players marked who they marked. It probably depended on who the taker was that dictated who Suarez marked.

Glen Johnson has to be about 4-5 cm taller that. Not that it means anything. Our attackers and defenders were routinely outjumped by Tim Cahill who wasn't the tallest about. To me it seems that our players do not jump at all but rather lean into an opponent.

Offline ac

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2013, 06:12:57 pm »
Other than the grappling Skrtel does at corners, he was very very good against City. Some of those sliding interceptions were brilliant. I think his positioning at set-pieces is generally fine but conversely he can be reluctant to push up the defensive line when we initiate a counter-attack and i think Agger is better at marshalling him in this aspect of the game.

You would think it would be the easy part of the improving his game to improve his tactics from set-pieces. He grapples week in week out, and rarely wins the ball because he is more focused on trying to subdue the attacker.

Frustrating to leak a goal from a corner or a free kick and it's something Brendan and the team will be readily working on to improve.
Not sure how you arrive at the conclusion Skrtel was brilliant. Skrtel's tendency to focus on the man rather than the ball resulted in the first goal conceded and created various other potential penalty appeals. IMO he was part culpable for the second goal we conceded running towards Navas (who had initially been approached by Sahko) and letting Negredo run in behind him. The block made in the first half was important but only needed to be made because of slow reaction to the movement of Negredo.
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Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2013, 06:57:42 pm »
Whilst they're in a bit of disarray, I'd like to see a cheeky bid for Ashley Williams in January. Natural leader, dominant at corners who'd work well with Sakho and, obviously BR knows him well.

OK, at 29, he's a bit older that we'd like but if its a CL place we're after, he'd help stiff our defence and knows BR's system inside out.

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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #137 on: December 27, 2013, 07:26:55 pm »
Spurs and united are just as bad to be fair but you have better attack the both so it just saying its holding you back. You let in 15 goals in seven away games despite scoring 17 goals i the same amount of away games. You let in to many set piece goals at newcastle, ciity, everton  twice.

You let in 43 goals last season and your heading for the same amount with 21 goals let in after 17 games . Last year you scored 73 goals so going forward was not a issue. But defending last few seasons have been.

You´re talking a perfect (football) world scenario, in todays football there is no way to entirely control both, attack and defense. As long as Rafa took care of defending first his teams looked boring. When he switched to attacking style his teams were as open as attacking teams like Arsenal. Look at the difference of Chelsea this season and how they sit back and struggle to score in contrast to the way they played under Rafa...

Considering the reality of football you´re just trying to be a smart ass with these sort of arguments IMHO... The defending of Arsenal, City AND Liverpool is on a very high level and far from full of flaws. Mistakes do happen but the overall performances in almost every respect you can think of are on a very high level.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 07:29:32 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2013, 07:31:52 pm »
I would love somebody to find our starting 11s average height compared to other teams.

Whilst we may be tactically weak from set pieces, it seems to me at least that we have a shorter than average team as Rodgers favours technique, speed and skill ahead of height and strength. Johnson is imo very weak aerially, most of our midfield isn't very tall, nor are any of our forwards
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #139 on: December 27, 2013, 07:37:31 pm »
I would love somebody to find our starting 11s average height compared to other teams.

Whilst we may be tactically weak from set pieces, it seems to me at least that we have a shorter than average team as Rodgers favours technique, speed and skill ahead of height and strength. Johnson is imo very weak aerially, most of our midfield isn't very tall, nor are any of our forwards
But if you look at the set piece goals we have conceded this season in the OP it is predominantly defenders who are being beaten at set pieces and mostly centre backs. I think the only time a midfielder has been at fault is Gerrard vs Palace.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #140 on: December 27, 2013, 07:41:59 pm »
Not every defender can be Sergio Ramos, having both. Every player has it´s strength and flaws, fingerpointing at mistakes is just not the way to look at it considering the level we perform at the moment.

If we wanna improve our defending at set pieces, we have to improve our daily training session in this respect.

But again, I don´t think we are anywhere that bad as people make it out to be. It´s just that they don´t have anything left to point their fingers at.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 07:44:53 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Red Bird

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #141 on: December 27, 2013, 07:44:55 pm »
Not every defender can be Sergio Ramos, having both. Every player has it´s strength and flaws, fingerpointing at mistakes is just not the way to look at it considering the level we perform at the moment.

If we wanna improve our defending at set pieces, we have to improve our daily training session in this respect.
It wouldn't hurt if they could head the ball, though. You know, like Sami Hyypiä ...

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2013, 07:51:27 pm »
It wouldn't hurt if they could head the ball, though. You know, like Sami Hyypiä ...

You know, it´s exactly this sort of lines that make me sick. They completely overshadow the quality of our entire defense in a patronising, arrogant way. The players simply didn´t deserve that.

The last couple of years we saw horrendous football with maybe better players around who didn´t give a shite for most of the time. Last season we were full of flaws still, despite the positives glimpses and the manager and the players worked their socks off to get to a level where we finally can compete with teams having twice the quality in the squad.

Rodgers and the players, despite still not having anywhere the quality in the squad around compared to Arsenal, City, Chelsea and United, perform at such a high level at the moment that there are only a few things left to point their fingers at..

Why people still belittle Rodgers (as it happens in the post game thread) and some players instead of being happy that we are finally back for competing even for the title after all this years is beyond me.

I honestly never believed we would be able to perform on a level like we did in those last three games with this squad. Never. Ever. And I was amazed, cause I know what it takes to get there, and if I would have to rate our players it would look boring. They ALL would get a 10.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 08:03:24 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2013, 07:59:19 pm »
It's set pieces that are going to kill us.

Although Skrtel is getting the bulk of the flak I don't think Sakho has added anything in terms of defending set-pieces, I was hoping he'd attack them aggressively at both ends but he rarely gets near one.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2013, 08:04:39 pm »
Just revisiting the goals in the OP. Had a look at them again. One thing I'll note is that Meyler's for Hull has to be taken off the list as it was not from a set-piece; the move originated from a free kick in their half, but there were several passes before it went in the net, so it's not really correct to attribute that to a set-piece.  Similarly, we can't really talk about set-piece defending and penalties, as that's a unique situation.

Given that, it looks like we've conceded 9 set-piece goals in total, and only 7 in the league. We've conceded 21 goals in the league, so that means we're conceding set pieces at a rate of 33% of goals, which is fairly average or slightly better than average. So statistically, we are not doing too bad. The real problem is HOW we concede them, because they are almost all preventable. Sometimes a set-piece is well-worked, or the opponent is powerful and good in the air (Lukaku, Kompany). But a lot of it is just plain football sense, or a player problem. If we look at the 9 set-pieces we conceded in total, and look for common denominators in terms of players making an error, then two names crop up. I won't name them, lest I be accused of scapegoating - having said that, most problems in football are player problems once the first whistle goes. In our case, we have three common denominators - the two players who have made the errors consistently, and the manager for not doing enough quality work on set-piece defending. We could probably improve our stats on this, though, by at least replacing the two players in question - given that we won't replace the manager, and he doesn't seem to put too much stock in working on the issue tactically.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2013, 08:06:27 pm »
It's set pieces that are going to kill us.

Although Skrtel is getting the bulk of the flak I don't think Sakho has added anything in terms of defending set-pieces, I was hoping he'd attack them aggressively at both ends but he rarely gets near one.

He hasn't been at fault for any set-piece goals either though. He may not be standing out, but he hasn't lost any duels that have led to the ball being put into the net from a set-piece.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #146 on: December 27, 2013, 08:08:29 pm »
PoP quick question, how does one train dangerous set pieces in the box? I mean we don't have a physical presence in the box like a Lukaku type player. If Andy Carroll was still here it would be different, but how do you train something like that without the required players? We have Sterling, Suarez, Countinho and Henderson up front, not the most physical or over powering lot.

I mean you can match defenders together, but then they are essentially just training against each other and players get used to how people react. How do you train for the unknown?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #147 on: December 27, 2013, 08:11:30 pm »
PoP quick question, how does one train dangerous set pieces in the box? I mean we don't have a physical presence in the box like a Lukaku type player. If Andy Carroll was still here it would be different, but how do you train something like that without the required players? We have Sterling, Suarez, Countinho and Henderson up front, not the most physical or over powering lot.

I mean you can match defenders together, but then they are essentially just training against each other and players get used to how people react. How do you train for the unknown?

Overloads. Two players on one defender. So GK, 8 defending players, 16 attackers. Or 5 v 10. You can't replicate height if you don't have it, but you can replicate pressure and strength. My feeling is we don't do any actual field practice on set-piece defending anyway, so it wouldn't matter if we had Carroll, Crouch and Lukaku on the books.
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #148 on: December 27, 2013, 08:13:58 pm »
Overloads. Two players on one defender. So GK, 8 defending players, 16 attackers. Or 5 v 10. You can't replicate height if you don't have it, but you can replicate pressure and strength. My feeling is we don't do any actual field practice on set-piece defending anyway, so it wouldn't matter if we had Carroll, Crouch and Lukaku on the books.

This sounds like a misstep in our training methods? Is it?

Clearly we are struggling at defending set pieces, if 33% of our goals are a result of bad defending from them, shouldn't we be trying to correct that?

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2013, 08:14:25 pm »
Could Rodgers be concerned about committing to much time to practising set pieces that it may affect our outfield play?

In the summer Skrtel said we practised defending and defensive shape a lot more and at the beginning of the season we appeared disjointed in our attacking and ground out a lot of 1-0 wins. It took us several weeks to get that attaching fluidity back.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #150 on: December 27, 2013, 08:14:43 pm »
Just revisiting the goals in the OP. Had a look at them again. One thing I'll note is that Meyler's for Hull has to be taken off the list as it was not from a set-piece; the move originated from a free kick in their half, but there were several passes before it went in the net, so it's not really correct to attribute that to a set-piece.  Similarly, we can't really talk about set-piece defending and penalties, as that's a unique situation.

Given that, it looks like we've conceded 9 set-piece goals in total, and only 7 in the league. We've conceded 21 goals in the league, so that means we're conceding set pieces at a rate of 33% of goals, which is fairly average or slightly better than average. So statistically, we are not doing too bad. The real problem is HOW we concede them, because they are almost all preventable. Sometimes a set-piece is well-worked, or the opponent is powerful and good in the air (Lukaku, Kompany). But a lot of it is just plain football sense, or a player problem. If we look at the 9 set-pieces we conceded in total, and look for common denominators in terms of players making an error, then two names crop up. I won't name them, lest I be accused of scapegoating - having said that, most problems in football are player problems once the first whistle goes. In our case, we have three common denominators - the two players who have made the errors consistently, and the manager for not doing enough quality work on set-piece defending. We could probably improve our stats on this, though, by at least replacing the two players in question - given that we won't replace the manager, and he doesn't seem to put too much stock in working on the issue tactically.

Skrtel, Agger and Sakho definitely can do it, they showed it countless times before in recent seasons.

But you have to practise this in training on a regular basis, unless you gonna lose it, and maybe Skrtel, Sakho and Agger have nobody to work on it in training as we don´t have many big players in the squad to work on it.

Just as it´s harder to practise one touch football with not enough talented players. The improvement in this respect also comes from a higher level in our training sessions..
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 08:17:21 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline rocco

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #151 on: December 27, 2013, 08:17:23 pm »
33% sounds a lot but I'm sure the average is never lower than 30% for the premierleague  ?

So I'm guessing then like corners as a low % of goals is not worked on from a defensive point of view that set pieces if around the average isn't a big concern for Rodgers ?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 08:21:29 pm by rocco »

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #152 on: December 27, 2013, 08:18:58 pm »
Could Rodgers be concerned about committing to much time to practising set pieces that it may affect our outfield play?

In the summer Skrtel said we practised defending and defensive shape a lot more and at the beginning of the season we appeared disjointed in our attacking and ground out a lot of 1-0 wins. It took us several weeks to get that attaching fluidity back.

Possibly. It would make sense, as keeping attacking skills sharp, and working on movement, technique and possession is the hardest thing in football to develop. You have to keep working on it. But still, this period that we're in now was perfect for working on set-piece defending, because we can't really work too intensely in the Christmas rush of games. It remains to be seen if that is indeed what happens, if we improve on this area after the Christmas run is over.
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2013, 08:20:39 pm »
My biggest problem with this is that Srktel has been doing this all season and Brendan Rodgers has accepted it. I have only played football at amature level but in every team I've played for our centre backs have attacked the ball from any free kicks or corners coming into the box. One of Uniteds big successors over the last number of seasons has been Vidic who attacks every ball that comes into the box which is an important requirement of any centre backs game.

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2013, 08:21:33 pm »
This sounds like a misstep in our training methods? Is it?

Clearly we are struggling at defending set pieces, if 33% of our goals are a result of bad defending from them, shouldn't we be trying to correct that?

I think it is, personally, because you can do a week of sessions, set your defensive plan in place, and then forget about it for the rest of the season with maybe a single session here and there to refresh it or make a tweak. But at the same time, Rodgers wants the team to play a very complex type of football with huge technical demands, and he might feel it's better to work on that more and let set-piece defending sort itself out on the field. I'm not a fan of that approach, but it's not a unique one. Barca never or rarely ever practiced defending set-pieces much
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2013, 08:28:11 pm »
It's set pieces that are going to kill us.

Although Skrtel is getting the bulk of the flak I don't think Sakho has added anything in terms of defending set-pieces, I was hoping he'd attack them aggressively at both ends but he rarely gets near one.

In terms of attacking the ball, to me, it always has to be the goal keeper first and foremost trying to dominate the box. I think Mignolet is a great talent and definitely can get there, just as it´s the case with Neuer or Czech..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2013, 08:31:16 pm »
Could Rodgers be concerned about committing to much time to practising set pieces that it may affect our outfield play?

In the summer Skrtel said we practised defending and defensive shape a lot more and at the beginning of the season we appeared disjointed in our attacking and ground out a lot of 1-0 wins. It took us several weeks to get that attaching fluidity back.

It could also be about picking what has the most reward/gain. Assume PoP IS correct and we don't do field training for set pieces, How much could we expect to gain from then starting to practise? Well, we saw that overall our average isn't considerably higher than most other teams (who presumably practise more). It might be that we could practise set pieces but we would see a reduction in 1 goal, maybe 2-3 goals over the course of a season. On the other hand, if we practise our defensive system, and how we hold onto the ball, and our finishing, we might veritably see higher gains. From this point of view, it may not actually be worth our while to practise - given that practising them would be very time consuming. I'm not sure if this is true or not, just a thought.

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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2013, 08:35:58 pm »
Skrtel, Agger and Sakho definitely can do it, they showed in countless times before in recent seasons. But you have to practise this in training, unless you gonna lose it, and maybe Skrtel, Sakho and Agger have nobody to work on it in training.. We don´t have many big players in the squad to work on it in training just as it´s harder to practise one touch football with not enough talented players. The improvement in this respect also comes from a higher level in our training sessions..

Yep. Under Rafa, we were generally good at defending set pieces and we were under Kenny too I think. Both Agger and Skrtel have been here under both those managers and have shown themselves to be able to defend them well. The team right now is struggling with them, regardless of who's playing and so it's likely a training ground issue.
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #158 on: December 27, 2013, 08:50:45 pm »
Yep. Under Rafa, we were generally good at defending set pieces and we were under Kenny too I think. Both Agger and Skrtel have been here under both those managers and have shown themselves to be able to defend them well. The team right now is struggling with them, regardless of who's playing and so it's likely a training ground issue.

It's certainly a huge issue, but I also think we need to apply a slightly different slant to it too. The biggest culprits in our set-piece defending are actually Rafa players. This isn't a slight on Rafa (a sainted man), but he was very much into micromanaging the tactics of the game - you can see it in his sideline behaviour as he directs, redirects and repositions players every few minutes. So in effect, when he worked on set-pieces, everyone had a job to do, and they weren't to deviate from it. Clarke is much the same, and you could see his imprint at both Liverpool and West Brom in that sense. Rodgers, though, expects his players to work it out for themselves. In the attack phase, Kenny was the same - he believed the players had to be able to create on their own. So to a degree, there is a form of learned helplessness from some of our players in these situations. It's the one compromise I think Rodgers could make to his methods, with a tip of the hat to Rafa. Set-pieces are the one part of the game you CAN rehearse and micromanage, and we're suffering a little because of the freewheeling nature of how Rodgers sees the game. It makes for a brilliant attack though!
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Re: Defending Set Pieces
« Reply #159 on: December 27, 2013, 08:58:39 pm »
It's certainly a huge issue, but I also think we need to apply a slightly different slant to it too. The biggest culprits in our set-piece defending are actually Rafa players. This isn't a slight on Rafa (a sainted man), but he was very much into micromanaging the tactics of the game - you can see it in his sideline behaviour as he directs, redirects and repositions players every few minutes. So in effect, when he worked on set-pieces, everyone had a job to do, and they weren't to deviate from it. Clarke is much the same, and you could see his imprint at both Liverpool and West Brom in that sense. Rodgers, though, expects his players to work it out for themselves. In the attack phase, Kenny was the same - he believed the players had to be able to create on their own. So to a degree, there is a form of learned helplessness from some of our players in these situations. It's the one compromise I think Rodgers could make to his methods, with a tip of the hat to Rafa. Set-pieces are the one part of the game you CAN rehearse and micromanage, and we're suffering a little because of the freewheeling nature of how Rodgers sees the game. It makes for a brilliant attack though!

Interesting. Do you think we should look to hire a Clarke-like coach?