Topic: Marine A, aka Sgt. Alexander Blackman.

[CornerFlag]

It seems people don't like having the facts of his conviction being made towards them, I've had, in no particular order:

"Left wing scumfuck"
"Professional hater"
"Job dodger"
"Wanker"
"Prick"
"Flaccid"
"A neuter".

It's funny how when you keep your cool when trying to debate someone how people will lash out and abuse when they're not getting their point across because it's misinformed.

[Redman0151]

It seems people don't like having the facts of his conviction being made towards them, I've had, in no particular order:

"Left wing scumfuck"
"Professional hater"
"Job dodger"
"Wanker"
"Prick"
"Flaccid"
"A neuter".

It's funny how when you keep your cool when trying to debate someone how people will lash out and abuse when they're not getting their point across because it's misinformed.

The whole troop worship thing is weird, they're almost like Gods in America especially

[Kenny's Jacket]

It seems people don't like having the facts of his conviction being made towards them, I've had, in no particular order:

"Left wing scumfuck"
"Professional hater"
"Job dodger"
"Wanker"
"Prick"
"Flaccid"
"A neuter".

It's funny how when you keep your cool when trying to debate someone how people will lash out and abuse when they're not getting their point across because it's misinformed.

From who mate?

[CornerFlag]

The whole troop worship thing is weird, they're almost like Gods in America especially

I have nearly every respect in the world for those who'd serve in such a way.  A loyalty to the country to the point where you'd put your life on the line is in, a lot of ways, quite remarkable and admirable.  But the actions of Blackman that day does not guarantee loyalty to him because he served up to that point.  It gives him the right to be found guilty of murder as others would.  Combat stresses may have played a part, but many others suffering PTSD don't actively and knowingly commit murder in similar circumstances.

[CornerFlag]

From who mate?

The usual posse on social media.  I'd say it's the last time I'd include a hashtag on a controversial subject but I was looking to engage with people in a more amicable manner.  Should have probably guessed really.  I think I've just been talking to the people running his appeal on Twitter, @JusticeForBigAl, and they're at least speaking to me civilly.  Though because breaking the Geneva Convention didn't form part of the prosecution (from what they've said, looked it up and it seems to be right) then it seems like it doesn't matter.

[Kenny's Jacket]

The usual posse on social media.  I'd say it's the last time I'd include a hashtag on a controversial subject but I was looking to engage with people in a more amicable manner.  Should have probably guessed really.  I think I've just been talking to the people running his appeal on Twitter, @JusticeForBigAl, and they're at least speaking to me civilly.  Though because breaking the Geneva Convention didn't form part of the prosecution (from what they've said, looked it up and it seems to be right) then it seems like it doesn't matter.

Ahh ok. Pricks on twitter. 

Very interesting about the GC not being part of the prosecution. I did a bit of research as Ive found it an interesting story.

I understand the GC is for Government Military and I think repressed groups. The Taliban is neither, so not subject to the GC and I think therefore the guy dead guy is not protected by it.  Thats how I inferred it anyway.  Assumed I was wrong as he is on trial but perhaps not.

Who are the prosecutors?  The Army?  I dont think the Crown can prosecute crimes abroad.

[CheshireDave]

Who are the prosecutors?  The Army?  I dont think the Crown can prosecute crimes abroad.

Service Prosecuting Authority (SPA)

[Mumm-Ra]

*This is not a holier than thou post*

I don't feel comfortable passing judgment on people who are in situations like that. It's easy to sit at your desk and proclaim how he should have behaved. He was obviously in the wrong and should be punished but I can't get on board with treating him like an everyday, civilian murderer. The stress of being in a combat zone is a pretty huge mitigating factor.

Of course I don't know his inner mind but I would guess people who have done things like this, if you'd asked them before they joined the army, they would have never dreamed themselves to be capable of it.

I can't even imagine the stress and the dehumanising effect of being in a war against people who are really trying to kill you by any means. To say that you would retain the same moral compass that you went in there with is a big stretch. I'm sure many do, but I can see how you would lose it and become a different person.

[ghost1359]

The stress of being in a combat zone is a pretty huge mitigating factor.

I'm sorry but it isn't. Thousands of soldiers have been in that situation and not murdered someone in the callous manner in which he did.

[Mumm-Ra]

I'm sorry but it isn't. Thousands of soldiers have been in that situation and not murdered someone in the callous manner in which he did.

Just because it doesn't happen to everyone doesn't mean it's not a mitigating factor. We acknowledge that the experience of war can often cause PTSD - that it can affect you for years afterwards - why is it so outlandish to say that it would affect the way your mind works when you are actually in the situation.

We know that when in insulated groups, people can get swept up and behave in a way they never would normally. I would think that being in a tight-knit unit in a combat zone could see the most extreme examples of that.

[bigbonedrawky]

Well yes, if you're a British soldier in Afghanistan and you aren't fearing for your life you're either a sociopath or incredibly stupid. I'm sure every single soldier there feared for their lives at some point - they didn't turn into murderers.

 There are standards in war. There are even higher standards if you go to a country talking about the brutality of the regime and presenting yourselves as liberators. Blackman did not abide by those standards - he is a murderer. Nothing more, nothing less.

Generally speaking they don't turn into murderers, cases like these are the tip of the iceberg the vast majority would deal with this almost unique form of stress, by turning fear and the anger it generates, inward. This can result in a feeling of disconnect from the normal every- day things in life to depression and other mental health problems. The resulting breakdown in relationships and numerous cases of homelessness among ex-servicemen are cases in point.

Now I don't know the guy but whoever he was before he went off to War... He came back different.

On the subject of stress...
Think of how stressed and angry you get over petty things like Corbyn and your fears for The Labour Party ...Now compare that stress to his...and then laugh... it helps to relieve stress.

On the subject of Fear and Anger my padawan learner ... Master Yoda says it leads to Hatred and Suffering        

     
   

[McrRed]

Generally speaking they don't turn into murderers, cases like these are the tip of the iceberg the vast majority would deal with this almost unique form of stress, by turning fear and the anger it generates, inward. This can result in a feeling of disconnect from the normal every- day things in life to depression and other mental health problems. The resulting breakdown in relationships and numerous cases of homelessness among ex-servicemen are cases in point.

Now I don't know the guy but whoever he was before he went off to War... He came back different.

On the subject of stress...
Think of how stressed and angry you get over petty things like Corbyn and your fears for The Labour Party ...Now compare that stress to his...and then laugh... it helps to relieve stress.

On the subject of Fear and Anger my padawan learner ... Master Yoda says it leads to Hatred and Suffering        

     
 

Lovely perspective

[McrRed]

*This is not a holier than thou post*

I don't feel comfortable passing judgment on people who are in situations like that. It's easy to sit at your desk and proclaim how he should have behaved. He was obviously in the wrong and should be punished but I can't get on board with treating him like an everyday, civilian murderer. The stress of being in a combat zone is a pretty huge mitigating factor.

Of course I don't know his inner mind but I would guess people who have done things like this, if you'd asked them before they joined the army, they would have never dreamed themselves to be capable of it.

I can't even imagine the stress and the dehumanising effect of being in a war against people who are really trying to kill you by any means. To say that you would retain the same moral compass that you went in there with is a big stretch. I'm sure many do, but I can see how you would lose it and become a different person.

What's unrecognised is the stress of being an ordinary person.

I quite like the French notion of  Crime Passionel ... ordinary people, due to a variety of factors - stress, PTSD - do batshit crazy things

[thisyearisouryear]

I'm sorry but it isn't. Thousands of soldiers have been in that situation and not murdered someone in the callous manner in which he did.

That is not a very strong argument. You can't really judge PTSD (and other mental health problems) like this.
For instance, quite a few people go through a traumatic childhood. A fraction of these develop serious long-term personality disorders. Would you invalidate their suffering because thousands of others went through a traumatic childhood and got over it to lead a normal life?

[ghost1359]

That is not a very strong argument. You can't really judge PTSD (and other mental health problems) like this.
For instance, quite a few people go through a traumatic childhood. A fraction of these develop serious long-term personality disorders. Would you invalidate their suffering because thousands of others went through a traumatic childhood and got over it to lead a normal life?

What makes me suspicious of him is what he said while doing it and the attempts to silence people afterwards. That doesn't strike me as someone who has just cracked and done something on impulse. That sounds very much like someone who knew what he was about to do, the ramifications of it and that he would be in a vulnerable position afterwards.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Walked past the Royal Courts of Justice this afternoon and saw lots of Marines and protestors and wondered what all this was about, so Googled it when I got back to my desk.

Been keeping an eye out for the past few hours and it has just been announced that he has been denied bail.

I find this really interesting and I am going to look into it further, as I have only read the basics, but initial thought is that he should be in prison.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/21/marine-asgt-alexander-blackman-denied-bail-christmas-ahead-murder/

[puroresu_kid]

This guy knew exactly what he was doing.  He tried to silence others after doing it simply because he knew what he did could land him in trouble.  For someone suffering stress he sure had the calmness of mind to move the victim out of sight of the surveillance camera and was even able to utter "shuffle off this mortal coil" as he shot an unarmed man dead.  Doesn't sound like someone who lost his mind in the heat of battle.

If soldiers don't want to adhere to the conventions there military is signed up to I suggest they don't become soldiers. 

Look at it the opposite way, if Blackman had been killed by the Taliban fighter in the same circumstances there is no question whatsoever the media would have reported it as the cold-blooded murder of one of "our boys". There would be no discussion of the Taliban fighter's state of mind it would be a done deal, murder.

[Kenny's Jacket]

This guy knew exactly what he was doing.  He tried to silence others after doing it simply because he knew what he did could land him in trouble.  For someone suffering stress he sure had the calmness of mind to move the victim out of sight of the surveillance camera and was even able to utter "shuffle off this mortal coil" as he shot an unarmed man dead.  Doesn't sound like someone who lost his mind in the heat of battle.

If soldiers don't want to adhere to the conventions there military is signed up to I suggest they don't become soldiers. 

Look at it the opposite way, if Blackman had been killed by the Taliban fighter in the same circumstances there is no question whatsoever the media would have reported it as the cold-blooded murder of one of "our boys". There would be no discussion of the Taliban fighter's state of mind it would be a done deal, murder.

The Taliban dont carry camera's.  Neither are they signed up to the Geneva Convention.

The Taliban soldiers wont face war crime accusations from their own.

All Taliban soldiers are murderers as they are not fighting with the backing of a government or wearing official uniform.

[zebenzui]

All Taliban soldiers are murderers as they are not fighting with the backing of a government or wearing official uniform.

Sounds like a similiar kind of attitude that led Blackman to murder someone in cold blood.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Sounds like a similiar kind of attitude that led Blackman to murder someone in cold blood.

But its true. Is it not?

[zebenzui]

But its true. Is it not?

Probably not, actually. Not 'all' anyway.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Probably not, actually. Not 'all' anyway.

I think thats a very disingenuous comment. I suspect you do to. 
You are applying ultra liberal thought for the sole purpose of winning trying to win a debate on the internet. 

Whats next, your thesis on "The good guys in ISIS"?

[zebenzui]

I think thats a very disingenuous comment. I suspect you do to. 
You are applying ultra liberal thought for the sole purpose of winning trying to win a debate on the internet. 

Whats next, your thesis on "The good guys in ISIS"?

Your suspicion is inaccurate. I do not believe every single Taliban soldier has committed murder. Do the Taliban on the whole commit commit atrocities, target civilians, conduct massacres and flaunt the rules of war? Yes. Do I believe every single Taliban soldier has been party to this, and have killed outside of what we would consider legitimate combat scenarios? No.

It seems from Blackman's comments that he was of the opinion that the Taliban do not deserve mercy since he would receive none from them, judging from the "its nothing they wouldn't do to us" comment. Unfortunately for him, the issue is not whether the Taliban fighter deserved anything, the issue is Blackman's conduct. He's there to protect people from the Taliban, not to behave like them.

I can condemn the crime without mourning the victim.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Your suspicion is inaccurate. I do not believe every single Taliban soldier has committed murder. Do the Taliban on the whole commit commit atrocities, target civilians, conduct massacres and flaunt the rules of war? Yes. Do I believe every single Taliban soldier has been party to this, and have killed outside of what we would consider legitimate combat scenarios? No.

It seems from Blackman's comments that he was of the opinion that the Taliban do not deserve mercy since he would receive none from them, judging from the "its nothing they wouldn't do to us" comment. Unfortunately for him, the issue is not whether the Taliban fighter deserved anything, the issue is Blackman's conduct. He's there to protect people from the Taliban, not to behave like them.

I can condemn the crime without mourning the victim.

Ive already said in another post that he has let down his uniform.   
The post  you quoted me on was in reply to someone saying that if the shoe was on the other foot we would be calling the Taliban soldier a murder etc and demanding justice. Well that would never happen for the reasons I gave. 


My Taliban are murderers comment comes from the fact they are not an official army recognised by the GC. Therefore all soldiers they kill in battle are seen legally as murder.

If you are in the Taliban and become a soldier its presumably because there is where your skills lie. As opposed a taliban member whos a Doctor or guard.  To think they have not become soldiers by being good at killing is strange.

[zebenzui]

Ive already said in another post that he has let down his uniform.   
The post  you quoted me on was in reply to someone saying that if the shoe was on the other foot we would be calling the Taliban soldier a murder etc and demanding justice. Well that would never happen for the reasons I gave. 

I know where you stand on this, and I think the post you were addressing (spoilered below) is still valid. It was bemusing (though not altogether surprising) to see the stance of certain rags on this issue, considering they espouse similiar attitudes held by you towards enemy combatants. At the very least you're consistent in your standards, sections of the British press less so. I don't want to defend the Taliban, I just want to roll my eyes at how this story has been portrayed in sections of the press.

Spoiler

Look at it the opposite way, if Blackman had been killed by the Taliban fighter in the same circumstances there is no question whatsoever the media would have reported it as the cold-blooded murder of one of "our boys". There would be no discussion of the Taliban fighter's state of mind it would be a done deal, murder.

[close]

[Kenny's Jacket]

I know where you stand on this, and I think the post you were addressing (spoilered below) is still valid. It was bemusing (though not altogether surprising) to see the stance of certain rags on this issue, considering they espouse similiar attitudes held by you towards enemy combatants. At the very least you're consistent in your standards, sections of the British press less so. I don't want to defend the Taliban, I just want to roll my eyes at how this story has been portrayed in sections of the press.

Spoiler

[close]

Out of interest what attitude are these?

[Johnny Foreigner]

The Taliban murderers - dows that also incluse the kids they recruit/force ?

[Kenny's Jacket]

The Taliban murderers - dows that also incluse the kids they recruit/force ?

I guess that question is aimed at me. If you are trying to draw me into an argument I cant be arsed.

However, the question becomes irrelevant when those kids become hardened taliban killers who in return recruit more  kids and the cycle continues.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

He's a murderer.

Even if he was suffering from a form of PTSD, he's still a murderer.

A large majority of murderers suffer from mental illness, that's why they murder. It doesn't mean they should be set free.

[ghost1359]

A large majority of murderers suffer from mental illness, that's why they murder. It doesn't mean they should be set free.

Not the case, you're more likely to be a victim of violence than commit acts of violence when suffering from mental illness, but please, carry on.

[TepidT2O]

Not the case, you're more likely to be a victim of violence than commit acts of violence when suffering from mental illness, but please, carry on.

More likely than average to have both occur though?

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Not the case, you're more likely to be a victim of violence than commit acts of violence when suffering from mental illness, but please, carry on.

What the hell has that got to do with what I said?!

I'm not saying everyone with a mental illness commits a crime.

Good Lordy lord.

[ghost1359]

What the hell has that got to do with what I said?!

I'm not saying everyone with a mental illness commits a crime.

Good Lordy lord.

You said "a large majority of murderers suffer from mental illness" and that isn't actually correct.

"Homicide

Every homicide is a tragedy, for the person who has been killed and their family and friends.
The total number of victims of homicides in England and Wales has declined in the last ten
years. In 2003/04 the number was 775 (Home Office, 2010-11), while in 2012/13 the
number of homicides was 551 (ONS 2014). The number includes victims of all homicides –
committed by people with and without mental health problems.

The number of homicides by people with mental health problems (called patient homicides)
is measured in an annual report produced by a research programme based at the University
of Manchester. This report seeks to help prevent homicide by people in contact with mental
health services.

The most recent report (NCISH, 2013) covers the ten year period from 2001-2011 and finds:

 In the ten years from 2001 to 2011, 602 people convicted of homicide in England were
identified as patients, an average of 56 per year.

 In the ten years from 2001 to 2011, 29 people convicted of homicide in Wales were
identified as patients, an average of 3 per year.

It is important to note that although these perpetrators have mental health problems, we do
not know whether the mental health problem led directly to homicide. As discussed above
there a many other factors which can contribute to violent behaviour.
There are also some limitations to this report which it is important to be aware of:

 In order to be included in these figures the perpetrator (the person who carried out the
homicide) needs to have been in contact with secondary mental health services in the 12
months before the offence.

 A separate figure is provided for people who had symptoms of mental illness at the time
of the offence, but were not in contact with mental health services. It cannot be said
whether these symptoms led to the homicide.

 The figures do not include homicide where the perpetrator later took his or her own life
as well and was therefore not charged and/or convicted. However not all suicides are
mental health related.

 The figures count the number of perpetrators who were convicted of homicide. In some
cases a perpetrator may have killed more than one person meaning the number of
victims is likely to be higher. "

http://www.mind.org.uk/media/998781/Violence-and-mental-health-Mind-factsheet-2014.pdf

Unless things have changed dramatically in the last six years the figure is less than 10%.

[SP]

That presupposes 100% of people with mental issues are in contact with mental health services. That is clearly fallacious. Those figures exclude anyone who slips through the net. The holes in the system are enormous.

[ghost1359]

That presupposes 100% of people with mental issues are in contact with mental health services. That is clearly fallacious. Those figures exclude anyone who slips through the net. The holes in the system are enormous.

Even given that the percentage is unlikely to be significantly higher, I'd speculate at double at the absolute most in which case you're talking 1/5.

[SP]

Even given that the percentage is unlikely to be significantly higher, I'd speculate at double at the absolute most in which case you're talking 1/5.

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/projectsresearch/mentalhealth

Not murderers specifically. But for the general populations, the figures are higher.

[ghost1359]

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/projectsresearch/mentalhealth

Not murderers specifically. But for the general populations, the figures are higher.

The same criticism of the report I cited can be said of yours, that's a study of prisoners in prison not upon arrival. I'm no expert but I'd imagine being in prison might be a contributing factor to developing mental health issues.

[Alan574]

I'm sorry but it isn't. Thousands of soldiers have been in that situation and not murdered someone in the callous manner in which he did.

I think you will find should anyone dare to admit it that many soldiers have "murdered" during various wars.  It's quite possible that your grandad or great grandad did such a thing if he was in the forces.  I personally know one man who was a member of the forces during the Suez war.  They threw wounded arabs into the docks at Port Said. 

Unless you have been in a war situation (I haven't), you will never know what your reactions will be. I don't think it has been said but the Taliban was on the verge of death anyway and wouldn't have survived, the marines had just been in a firefight and had I think some of their own injured which although doesn't excuse him, it goes a long way to understanding his actions.  Remember after the Falklands war some ammunition exploded and an Argentian was on fire. He was shot by the British to put him out of his misery.  Should that man not be in jail then?

[Buck Pete]

Murder conviction reduced to Manslaughter on appeal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39278929

[CornerFlag]

Seems like a curious decision to me to appease a vocal group.  No doubt he'll be out on time served.  Strange that it's diminished responsibility given some of the facts around his compus mentus at the time.

"As the insurgent’s body twitched, Blackman told him: “There you are, shuffle off this mortal coil, you c*nt. It’s nothing you wouldn’t do to us.” Moments later, he told colleagues: “Obviously this doesn’t go anywhere fellas. I’ve just broken the Geneva convention.”"