Author Topic: What's up with Turkey?  (Read 26211 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2016, 11:18:13 pm »
It's in no-one's interest to escalate it. That's daft. Thought that from the very first moment I saw people talking about WW3. Russia would rather blame US (apparently their media are spreading some conspiracy theories) and Turkey would rather blame Gulen. The plane incident was a lot worse surely.

There is potentially a lot at stake in the region. The map can be re-drawn and many would want to benefit if that happens. Syria's unstable and the future is uncertain. The Kurds want their own country. Turkey are not likely to see that as something positive. Then you have the loons in Daesh vs Shia. Add in the refugee crisis.

There is too much at stake for too many. In a way I hope Russia team up with the US. I believe that could offer stability.

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Offline kingz

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2016, 12:31:11 am »
There is potentially a lot at stake in the region. The map can be re-drawn and many would want to benefit if that happens. Syria's unstable and the future is uncertain. The Kurds want their own country. Turkey are not likely to see that as something positive. Then you have the loons in Daesh vs Shia. Add in the refugee crisis.

There is too much at stake for too many. In a way I hope Russia team up with the US. I believe that could offer stability.

Unfortunately, stability is not an option.

The world is being run by people who care only about one thing. Money. Nothing else, even if it means millions being killed ..
They will always create instability to sell weapons and to profit from oil , not long ago Iraq was invaded by claiming " they have weapons of mass destruction " just to get a share of Iraq's oil.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2016, 01:00:23 am »
Well with oil prices crashing coupled with the rise of renewables I wonder what impact that could have on the Middle-East?
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2016, 01:08:54 am »
Well with oil prices crashing coupled with the rise of renewables I wonder what impact that could have on the Middle-East?

The middle east doesn't rely on oil that much anymore. Much of the oil wealth has been reinvested into the finance market. That's why the likes of DIC, the Qatar Investment Corp. etc exist. They've not relied on oil itself for a long time although they are major exporters still.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2016, 09:05:17 am »
The middle east doesn't rely on oil that much anymore. Much of the oil wealth has been reinvested into the finance market. That's why the likes of DIC, the Qatar Investment Corp. etc exist. They've not relied on oil itself for a long time although they are major exporters still.

I think that depends on the country. Some of the smaller countries with smaller domestic populations but a lot of oil or gas like Bahrain, Abu Dhabi/UAE , Kuwait are probably well placed to cope post oil & gas, however Saudi Arabia is probably going to be the problem. While it has the most oil, its population is much larger and younger then its neighbours has a huge civil service and royal family to support along with an active role in foreign affairs (which usually isn't cheap) and other domestic problems. And I would guess that Iraq has been so busy worrying about immediate problems over the last 20 odd years that they haven't had the resources or chance to plan for the future. 
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Offline B0151?

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2016, 09:45:10 am »
I don't think Putin is that daft to buy Gulen connection of the attacker stories by the Turkish government. After all, he had a high role at KGB for 16 years. Otherwise why would Russia send an investigation team of 18 to Turkey to investigate the incident? Clearly, "that guy was a Gulen follower who wanted to harm Turkey-Russia relations. Case closed"  wasn't enough for Russia.

Well what Putin believes is besides the point. They wouldn't be doing their due diligence if they didn't investigate it, especially if what you've said is accurate. Putin's investigators public findings will be whatever Putin wants them to be. Both sides are happy for a 3rd party to cop blame for it in the eyes of public because they don't want to escalate it. Can't see the risk-benefit for Turkey wanting this to have happened at all. Erdogan doesn't need that extra instability surely, if anything has been shown it's that he cares more about consolidating his power than anything else.

I mean we can see what happens and what comes out, but pretty sure people have overreacted slightly here with the Franz Ferdinand shouts. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't rightly headline news and a big talking point.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2016, 09:47:37 am »
Putin will be sending a clear message that you don't fuck with Russians. It would not be surprising is there are a few assassinations of suspects who may have helped the killer.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2016, 03:09:32 pm »
Putin will be sending a clear message that you don't fuck with Russians. It would not be surprising is there are a few assassinations of suspects who may have helped the killer.

I read an article last week about how Russian assassins were operating currently in Turkey targeting Chechens who fled to Turkey after the Chechen war. Putin isn't a man to be crossed.
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Offline elsewhere

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2016, 01:38:39 pm »
Russia is urging Turkey not to jump to conclusions about the murdering of the Russian ambassador and to let investigation have its way.

And this was right after Erdogran repeatedly said "it's clear the attacker is Fethullah follower"

I bet Russia didn't like the fact that the terrorist has gone to 8 Erdogan meetings (and somehow never tried to attack Erdogan, despite him being top target for Feto) and he had many pictures in AKP's youth meetings.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:59:07 pm by elsewhere »

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2016, 03:41:14 pm »
I've always quite liked it myself, but goose and duck are excellent - if somewhat greasier - alternatives.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2016, 04:38:58 pm »
Well with oil prices crashing coupled with the rise of renewables I wonder what impact that could have on the Middle-East?
Untill the oil runs out they'll always make more than enough money for everyone living there to live a comfortable life no matter how much the price crashes. 
When it does run out they have plenty of sunshine and with some really thick cables they could generate a lot of electricity for export.
North African countries would be better placed for the European market but unlike the saudis they haven't got the money to invest in huge solar farms and cables.     

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2017, 05:57:57 pm »
Well, my good friends, it was fun to have democracy even on paper for the last 80+ years until yesterday's referandum results. I believe democracy died yesterday with the questionable constitutional referandum results that said yes to new system 51%.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2017, 06:02:58 pm »
Well, my good friends, it was fun to have democracy even on paper for the last 80+ years until yesterday's referandum results. I believe democracy died yesterday with the questionable constitutional referandum results that said yes to new system 51%.
Turkey could potentially be stuck with Erdogan until 2029.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2017, 07:14:18 pm »
Well, my good friends, it was fun to have democracy even on paper for the last 80+ years until yesterday's referandum results. I believe democracy died yesterday with the questionable constitutional referandum results that said yes to new system 51%.

It is scary how everywhere people are voting to lose their rights, voting to weaken democracy. Just what is going on in their heads?!?
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2017, 07:30:43 pm »
Another strong man in power. Next thing will be some form of "disagreement" with Greece.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2017, 07:34:37 pm »
It is scary how everywhere people are voting to lose their rights, voting to weaken democracy. Just what is going on in their heads?!?

I don't know man, as for my people, they can just be brainwashed easily with right wing propaganda. Just create some enemy arguments such as "the fascist europe who is jealous of Turkey" "those backstabber leftists who sell the country to capitalist west" "terrorist kurds" "those journalists are working for CIA and Mossad hence prisoned"  etc etc and you will do quite well as a right wing party.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2017, 09:08:00 pm »
So, that's another country that has voted against democracy and given their rights up to a dictator!!

What the hell is going on with the world?????

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2017, 10:35:02 pm »
I don't know man, as for my people, they can just be brainwashed easily with right wing propaganda. Just create some enemy arguments such as "the fascist europe who is jealous of Turkey" "those backstabber leftists who sell the country to capitalist west" "terrorist kurds" "those journalists are working for CIA and Mossad hence prisoned"  etc etc and you will do quite well as a right wing party.

I'm no expert in Turkish politics or history, but today I talked to a local (Austrian) politician who was born in Turkey and lived there until she was nine. She said that a lot of it seems down to how educated the people are. And that seems to have some merit when you consider that in the big cities people voted against while the people in the rural areas voted in favour. Another thing she mentions was emotions, which for Erdogan seems to have been a way to get loads of Turks abroad to vote for the new constitution. It was a way to tell politicians in the countries where they're living in (Austria, Germany, the Netherlands) to fuck off for getting involved in Turkish politics (by not allowing Turkish politicians campaign for the referendum in their country). It is still a crazy situation that people who life in democratic countries with loads of freedom voted in favour of getting rid of democracy and freedom in their country of birth. They won't be affected by it, but they've basically fucked it up for the people living there...

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2017, 11:59:34 pm »
So, that's another country that has voted against democracy and given their rights up to a dictator!!

What the hell is going on with the world?????
Guess it shows how easy some people are to manipulate. Like all democracies that move to dictatorship, play on their fears and prejudices, use emotion rather than logic or fact.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2017, 12:26:53 pm »
Things going backwards.

From The Sydney Morning Herald via The NY Times.

'Too controversial': Turkey drops evolution from secular curriculum - Patrick Kingsley

Istanbul: Turkey has removed the concept of evolution from its high school curriculum, in what critics fear is the latest attempt by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's government to erode the country's secular character.

Starting in September, a chapter on evolution will no longer appear in ninth-graders' textbooks because it is considered too "controversial" an idea, an official announced this week.

"Our students don't have the necessary scientific background and information-based context needed to comprehend" the debate about evolution, said the official, Alpaslan Durmus, chairman of the Education Ministry's Education and Discipline Board, which decides the curriculum, in a video posted on the ministry's website.

The news has deepened concerns among Erdogan's critics that the President, a conservative Muslim, wants to radically change the identity of a country that was founded in 1923 along staunchly secular lines.

"The last crumbs of secular scientific education have been removed," said Feray Aytekin Aydogan, head of Egitim-Sen, a union of secular-minded teachers. Aydogan also scoffed at the notion that evolution was too complex for teenagers to understand.

"Forget high school, you can comfortably explain it in preschool," she said in a telephone interview. "This is one of the basic topics you need to understand living beings, life and nature."

Over the past five years, analysts have noted how Erdogan's government has steadily increased references to Islam in the curriculum and removed some references to the ideas of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Turkey's founder. It has also increased the number of religious schools, known as imam hatip schools, and spoken of Erdogan's desire to raise "a pious generation" of young Turks.

Erdogan has also moved gradually to reduce restrictions on the wearing of Islamic dress. In 2011, he removed a ban on headscarves in universities, and in 2013, scrapped a similar ban in the civil service. This year, he did the same for women in the army, an institution previously regarded as the last bastion of hard-line secularism.

For some, these changes simply constitute a progressive attempt to open up public space and discourse to the pious sections of the population that for decades were marginalised by the country's secular and military elite.

"It's not true that Turkey is becoming less secular," said Ezgi Yagmur Kucuk, 20, a trainee anesthetist who does not wear a veil. "Everyone can believe whatever they like."

Others, however, see an attempt not just to promote freedom of religion, but to ensure its primacy. According to Kerem Oktem, the author of Angry Nation, a history of contemporary Turkey, the country is "not continuing along a process of secularisation - it's going into a post-secular context."

Still, Turkey is not considered likely to morph into a second Iran. The country's vexed relationship with secularism also predates Erdogan's tenure.

Technically, mosque and state were never completely separated in Turkey, even during the days of Ataturk. Instead, religion was placed under the control of the state. The process of legitimising Islamic thought was in part begun during the rule of Kenan Evren, the army general who took power in a coup in 1980 and who viewed Islam as a potential buffer against communism.

To add to the complexity, Erdogan's party - the Justice and Development Party, or AKP - has a confusing relationship with Islamism, or the belief in a society governed according to Islamic law. It does not call for the application of Shariah law.

Its leaders have historically denied they are Islamists, preferring instead to be known as conservatives. Unlike the political wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, a group to which the AKP has sometimes been compared, several of its female lawmakers are unveiled.

One of Erdogan's best-known supporters, Cem Kucuk, an outspoken commentator, has even called for hard-line Islamists to be expelled from the party.

It "uses religion to get votes," said Jenny White, an expert on the changing role of Islam and secularism within Turkey. "But they do not have a coherent theological, religious ideology."

The party and Turkish politics in general are best viewed through an authoritarian lens rather than an Islamist one, said White, author of "Muslim Nationalism and the New Turks," a book about identity in contemporary Turkey.

"The AKP is all about staying in power - and whatever it has to do to stay in power, it will do," she said.

Any further attempts to "Islamise" Turkish society is likely to be met with resistance, Oktem said. Despite Erdogan's increasing authoritarianism, roughly half the country still voted against plans to give him more power in a recent referendum.

"Most of these people are those who don't think religion should have such a central place in society," Oktem said.

He added, "Turkey is still not a deeply Islamic society, and much of the public visibility of Islam doesn't necessarily have a very deep basis."

But for Aydogan, the teachers' union leader, the outlook for secularism in the education sector is bleak.

Removing evolution from the curriculum, Aydogan said, puts Turkey in the same league as ultraconservative Saudi Arabia, where the concept is briefly mentioned in the curriculum but strongly criticised.

New York Times

http://www.smh.com.au/world/too-controversial-turkey-drops-evolution-from-secular-curriculum-20170626-gwynqk.html
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2017, 12:02:21 pm »
The Kurdish referendum today looks to be another flashpoint in the Syria/Turkey/Iraq/Iran region. Erdogan is stating his army is on the Iraq border and ready to invade.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2018, 11:16:50 am »
Since Turkey is now officially in big economical crisis, our currency Turkish lira lost about 50% in value this year so far, I thought it makes sense to bump this thread and share this article.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/12/investing/turkish-lira-currency-crisis/index.html

Turkey's currency crisis rages on as lira sinks again

Turkey's currency dropped again Monday as the country wrestled with a crisis that has rattled markets around the world.
The Turkish lira plunged as much as 11% against the dollar, hitting a record low, before recovering some of its losses in volatile trading. The lira had already plummeted more than 20% last week as a political clash with the United States intensified and investors fretted about the Turkish government's lack of action to tackle the problems plaguing its economy.
The lira's tailspin has unsettled global markets, with shares of European banks coming under particular pressure because of concerns over the lenders' exposure to Turkey. The jitters have also hit the currencies of other major emerging markets, such as South Africa and India.
On Monday, stocks fell 2% in Tokyo and more than 1% in Hong Kong. Major European markets were down around 0.5%, with shares in banks including Spain's BBVA and Italy's Unicredit (UNCFF) sliding more than 2%.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has dismissed calls for the country to raise interest rates to try to ease the crisis — and has lashed out at the United States.
"We will not give in," Erdogan said in a speech Sunday. "If you come at us with your dollars then we will find other ways to do business."
Fears of a debt crisis
Economists are warning that if confidence isn't restored quickly, Turkey could lurch into a recession and debt crisis requiring a bailout from the International Monetary Fund.
"Investors are clearly concerned that Turkey's government won't act (or allow the central bank to act) to shore up the currency, and fears are mounting that this could result in a crisis in Turkey's banking sector," William Jackson, chief emerging markets economist at research firm Capital Economics, wrote in a note to clients Friday.

The lira is now down more than 40% against the dollar since the start of the year, making it far harder for Turkish companies to pay back loans they have taken out in the US currency.
Meanwhile, the US government is using the lira crisis to ramp up pressure on Turkey over its detention of an American pastor.
"I have just authorized a doubling of Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum with respect to Turkey as their currency, the Turkish Lira, slides rapidly downward against our very strong Dollar!" President Donald Trump tweeted Friday. "Our relations with Turkey are not good at this time!"

Investors wait for 'convincing response'

The Turkish government has so far struggled to soothe investors' concerns.
Finance Minister Berat Albayrak said in a series of tweets late Sunday that the government had started introducing an economic action plan of "necessary measures" to address the situation. Albayrak, who is Erdogan's son-in-law, didn't provide much in the way of details.
The central bank then announced in a statement early Monday that it would "take all necessary measures to maintain financial stability" and "provide all the liquidity the banks need." It also said it would slash the amount of funds that banks are required to hold in reserve.

The Turkish currency erased some of its earlier losses, but the announcements weren't enough to trigger a rally. The lira was down around 7% against the dollar in afternoon trading in Asia.
Investors are waiting for "a convincing response from the central bank and government," Rob Carnell, an economist at investment bank ING, said in a note to clients Monday.
One dollar now buys a little under 7 lira, compared with fewer than 4 at the start of the year.

Emerging market turmoil

Investors have flocked to the United States in recent months, drawn by rising bond yields and a stronger dollar as the Federal Reserve continues to gradually increase interest rates.
The trend has set off turmoil in emerging markets: Argentina was forced in June to ask the International Monetary Fund for a $50 billion bailout.
Turkey's plight has raise fears of more casualties. The South African rand plummeted as much as 8% against the dollar early Monday before recovering to trade down more than 2%. India's rupee lost around 1% against the dollar, touching a record low.
But some market analysts are advising investors against abandoning emerging markets in general as result of the turbulence in Turkey.
"The drivers of the lira's decline are very specific to Turkey," Kerry Craig, a global market strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management, said in a note to clients. "Therefore it should not derail the positive fundamentals in other emerging markets over a longer term."
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 11:18:35 am by elsewhere »

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2018, 01:07:41 pm »
Thought the following is a pertinent read:


https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/turkey-lira-turmoil-herald-global-financial-crisis-180825165156035.html
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Obviously you don't have to agree with all the predictions, but as a general article on the situation it's ok.

Think there are one or two turks here, what do you guys see the solution being going forward?

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2019, 07:09:35 pm »

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #64 on: October 9, 2019, 02:32:44 pm »
The Associated Press
@AP
·
12m
BREAKING: Turkish President Erdogan announces in tweet that Turkish offensive into northeast Syria has started.
The Associated Press
@AP
·
25s
Turkish President Erdogan has announced that a Turkish military operation into Syria has started. Kurdish fighters say Turkish warplanes have begun attacking the region.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #65 on: October 9, 2019, 02:38:39 pm »
The Associated Press
@AP
·
12m
BREAKING: Turkish President Erdogan announces in tweet that Turkish offensive into northeast Syria has started.
The Associated Press
@AP
·
25s
Turkish President Erdogan has announced that a Turkish military operation into Syria has started. Kurdish fighters say Turkish warplanes have begun attacking the region.

Sad day. Fuck everything about Trump and the c*nts who have done this. Already the case, but the US is not a reliable ally anymore

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #66 on: October 9, 2019, 07:18:39 pm »
Disgusting, but utterly predictable. It's just a free for all now over there in the middle east, and no one really gives a fuck. I fear for the Kurdish people.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #67 on: October 9, 2019, 08:49:54 pm »
The ground forces are moving in now.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #68 on: October 9, 2019, 09:00:08 pm »
So lets see if Trump follows through on his bravado

The world really owe The Kurds a favour
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Offline dalarr

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #69 on: October 9, 2019, 10:22:03 pm »
I’m no expert in history but isn’t this the second time the US have failed the Kurds? First time during the first Gulf War where they were promised protection and now again in Syria.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #70 on: October 9, 2019, 10:30:32 pm »
I’m no expert in history but isn’t this the second time the US have failed the Kurds? First time during the first Gulf War where they were promised protection and now again in Syria.
The US has failed them more than that. Prior to the gulf war, saddam and the baathists committed genocide in Halabja dropping chemical weapons on thousands of civilians. I think certain sections of the US state tried to blame it on Iran.

The international community has constantly failed the Kurds since.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #71 on: October 9, 2019, 11:25:58 pm »
The US has failed them more than that. Prior to the gulf war, saddam and the baathists committed genocide in Halabja dropping chemical weapons on thousands of civilians. I think certain sections of the US state tried to blame it on Iran.

The international community has constantly failed the Kurds since.
You are right, it’s unfair to put the blame solely on the USA. It was actually the Halabja genocide I had in mind. Thought it happened during or after the war.

Offline leroy

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2019, 04:26:49 am »
The US has failed them more than that. Prior to the gulf war, saddam and the baathists committed genocide in Halabja dropping chemical weapons on thousands of civilians. I think certain sections of the US state tried to blame it on Iran.

The international community has constantly failed the Kurds since.

I believe they also got screwed post 1958 coup didn't they?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 04:29:25 am by leroy »

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2019, 02:32:44 pm »
The Kurds? Fuck 'em.

Where where they at Agincourt? Or when poor old Boudica took on the Roman legions?
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Offline classycarra

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2019, 04:22:25 pm »
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1182053870744276993
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC

I just spoke to a distraught US Special Forces soldier who is among the 1000 or so US troops in Syria tonight who is serving alongside the SDF Kurdish forces. It was one of the hardest phone calls I have ever taken. "I am ashamed for the first time in my career."

This veteran US Special forces soldier has trained indigenous forces on multiple continents. He is on the frontlines tonight and said they are witnessing Turkish atrocities. "Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It's horrible," this military source on the ground told me.

"We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement. There was NO threat to the Turks - NONE - from this side of the border." "This is insanity," the concerned US service member told me. ""I don't know what they call atrocities but they are happening."

This American soldier told me the Kurds have not left their positions guarding the ISIS prisoners. In fact "they prevented a prison break last night without us."
"They are not abandoning our side (yet)."
The Kurds are "pleading for our support." We are doing "nothing."

Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were "surprised" by the decision Sunday night.
Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor."

Acc to this US soldier on the ground tonight in Syria: "The Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the Middle East as anyone. "It's a shame. It's horrible." "This is not helping the ISIS fight." Re: ISIS prisoners: "Many of them will be free in the coming days and weeks."

This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: "The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us." Disappointed in the decisions coming from their senior leaders.

Offline planet-terror

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2019, 06:04:51 pm »
Fucking disgrace.
bollocks

Offline planet-terror

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2019, 06:06:55 pm »
Weren't the Kurds instrumental in defeating IS in thta area.
Clump is an absolute bastard leaving them to be butchered.
bollocks

Offline drmick

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2019, 06:17:10 pm »
I take it this is Turkey using the Kashmoggi murder as leverage?

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2019, 07:23:35 am »


What can you say. Erdogan has never had qualms about hurting his own people, much less a group he sees as external to Turkey.

It's easy to declare this is on Trump alone, but he doesn't survive in a vacuum. The blood from this is also on the hands of all his enablers, every single little piece building up down the path that finally created this issue.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 07:32:01 am by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline spen71

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2019, 10:57:15 am »
Has trump done this to deflect the attention from the probable impeachment ?