Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17  (Read 252895 times)

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2016, 07:14:18 pm »



Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2016, 07:21:05 pm »
@ Prof

Is there a reason why we have 71 as a reference?

Because last season, Arsenal on 71 finished 2nd. And City on 66 finished 4th. Assuming this was taken as a reference, would it be possible to change the 71 points line to 76? I think 2ppg is what we should be aiming for in order to "safely" get into champions league next season.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2016, 07:43:04 pm »
@ Prof

Is there a reason why we have 71 as a reference?

Because last season, Arsenal on 71 finished 2nd. And City on 66 finished 4th. Assuming this was taken as a reference, would it be possible to change the 71 points line to 76? I think 2ppg is what we should be aiming for in order to "safely" get into champions league next season.
Well you're contradicting yourself a bit there.  66 got fourth last season but you want the reference to be 76.

No team has achieved 71 and not come top 4.  So I don't think it needs to be higher.  It's also a neat number as 90-71 = 19 and 19/38=0.5 which means after every even number of matches, it's a points to par number which is possible.  It makes things neater instead of dealing with a less round number.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 08:13:46 pm »
Well you're contradicting yourself a bit there.  66 got fourth last season but you want the reference to be 76.

Haha. Yeah I realised that immediately after I posted. Let me explain why I bought up the 66 points from last season, and the 71 from your table.

These teams finished 4th ever since the "1992-93 "season.

1992-93 / Blackburn 71
1993-94 / Arsenal 71
1994-95 / Liverpool 74
1995-96 / Villa 63
1996-97 / Liverpool 68
1997-98 / Chelsea 63
1998-99 / Leeds 67
1999-00 / Liverpool 67
2000-01 / Leeds 68
2001-02 / Newcastle 71
2002-03 / Chelsea 67
2003-04 / Liverpool 60
2004-05 / Everton 61  ;D
2005-06 / Arsenal 67
2006-07 / Arsenal 68
2007-08 / Liverpool 76
2008-09 / Arsenal 72
2009-10 / Tottenham 70
2010-11 / Arsenal 68
2011-12 / Tottenham 69
2012-13 / Arsenal 73
2013-14 / Arsenal 79
2014-15 / United 70
2015-16 / City 66

Green indicates 4th spot below 71 points.
orange indicates border.
Red indicates 4th spot above 71 points.

If you look at the trend, there has been competitive seasons since 2007-08. Now, Liverpool with 76, Arsenal with 72,73,79 are probably definite top 3 finishers in any other season. probably top 2 as well. But my point is, we should consider all possible scenarios if we are to challenge for that 4th spot or maybe even the 3rd spot.

So, I thought of having either 75points as the target. Or 76, considering 2 points per game as it would be easier to calculate the APLT. Say we have played 19 games. We should be having 38 points. We are, say, at 34. So then we could say, we have a 4 under par. And we could compare it with the other teams that are vying for the champions league qualification and make a judgement of where we are and where we should be.

I just thought it would be easier. My 2 ppg cents.  :wave

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 09:21:39 pm »
^

Well that's missing the point of the aplt.  It's a model for looking at the title race based on fixture difficulty.  If you just look at getting 2ppg over the season with no regard of opponent, you might as well just look at the league table.

The aplt doesn't model on getting the same result at home to the weakest team as away to the hardest.  It could be made much more complicated as has been discussed over the years, by creating an algorithm to include a difficult rating in order to make an expectation for each fixture, but this would never (or extremely rarely) be an integer, let alone be a possible points haul from a fixture (1 or 3 points).  I like the simplicity of the model and it provides a method of creating the graph against par which I like to think is visually a good tool for representing the season.

Offline me76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2016, 07:33:48 am »
Ah - the sanity of APLT after 5 minutes in the post-match thread!!!  We're not doing so bad after all! 
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2016, 07:50:10 am »
APLT Full Table : Round 3
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Offline LFC Matt

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2016, 09:59:28 pm »
Just for sake of curiosity, how accurate has the APLT been in past years? Say, at the halfway point of the season after 19 games, has the APLT somewhat accurately predicted the final league table?

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2016, 11:26:53 pm »
Just for sake of curiosity, how accurate has the APLT been in past years? Say, at the halfway point of the season after 19 games, has the APLT somewhat accurately predicted the final league table?
100% success rate after 38 games ;)

15-16 after 19 rounds: If you push City down two spots it would've predicted the top 5 in correct order.
14-15 after 19 rounds: Take out Southampton (shared 4th) and it would've predicted the top 6 in correct order.
13-14 after 19 rounds: Didn't get the order right, but predicted the top 7 with each team ending 1-3 spots away from the prediction.
12-13 after 19 rounds: Predicted the winner, top 3, top 5 and top 7, just not in the correct order. 2-7 were all 1 spot off.

The APLT is not really a prediction tool though, but rather a reflection of the current table taking into consideration difficultness of remaining fixtures (based on previous season's final table).

Offline Frizzo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2016, 02:41:43 pm »
100% success rate after 38 games ;)

15-16 after 19 rounds: If you push City down two spots it would've predicted the top 5 in correct order.
14-15 after 19 rounds: Take out Southampton (shared 4th) and it would've predicted the top 6 in correct order.
13-14 after 19 rounds: Didn't get the order right, but predicted the top 7 with each team ending 1-3 spots away from the prediction.
12-13 after 19 rounds: Predicted the winner, top 3, top 5 and top 7, just not in the correct order. 2-7 were all 1 spot off.

The APLT is not really a prediction tool though, but rather a reflection of the current table taking into consideration difficultness of remaining fixtures (based on previous season's final table).
It is and it isn't a prediction tool.

Does a good job as one I think.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2016, 05:39:30 pm »
Interesting that the bookies give us a better than 50% chance of finishing in the top 4, better odds than Tottenham.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #51 on: September 1, 2016, 05:59:36 pm »
Bookies base their odds on how punters are willing to bet, which is often inconsistent with the real chances.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #52 on: September 2, 2016, 01:52:02 am »
Bookies base their odds on how punters are willing to bet, which is often inconsistent with the real chances.
This isn't completely true. I've been over this before on here. It's A factor.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #53 on: September 2, 2016, 05:16:27 pm »
100% success rate after 38 games ;)

15-16 after 19 rounds: If you push City down two spots it would've predicted the top 5 in correct order.
14-15 after 19 rounds: Take out Southampton (shared 4th) and it would've predicted the top 6 in correct order.
13-14 after 19 rounds: Didn't get the order right, but predicted the top 7 with each team ending 1-3 spots away from the prediction.
12-13 after 19 rounds: Predicted the winner, top 3, top 5 and top 7, just not in the correct order. 2-7 were all 1 spot off.

The APLT is not really a prediction tool though, but rather a reflection of the current table taking into consideration difficultness of remaining fixtures (based on previous season's final table).

Balls. We are fecked if not in top 4 by game 19 then!


(I am joking).

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #54 on: September 9, 2016, 05:41:09 pm »
Hello. Sorry I'm late. Thanks for setting up the new thread, Prof, looks almost as smart as the new Main Stand.

Here's a little APLT preview for the weekend, cos it's Friday:

This weekend's APLT action kicks off down the road with a double-header, all star, all APLT clash between Jose Mourinho's Manchester United and Pep Guardiola's Manchester City. What a world we live in, eh? Who saw that coming?

Both sides shared identical league records last season, to end on 66 points apiece, or -24 on the APLT. This time they'll both be targetting the title rather than 4th place, and so far they've each made a decent case for that objective with their early running, with United holding to the 0 line and City sitting pretty on +2. This can't go on, though, as one side will be disappointed here. City's early form has seen them make short work of Sunderland, Stoke and West Ham, but this is the first real test for them as they leave the city of Manchester to travel to the home of their greatest rivals.
Sky Sports are billing it as the "standout game of the day" before a ball has been kicked, but has Pep got City playing his style of boring football this quickly? Has Mourinho really had time to turn Van Gaal's bunch of boring underperformers into his own kind of boring underperformers?

Who will rise? Who will fall asleep? Who gives a flying fuck? Hope they both lose.

It's a Par 1 for City, a Par 3 for United.

United win:
MCY +1
MNU 0

City win:
MCY +4
MNU -3

Draw:
MCY +2
MNU -2


Right, now that sordid business is out of the way, next up is Arsenal v Southampton

Arsenal surprised many last season in their traditional fourth place race by actually managing to finish second thanks to a rare gift from their friendly neighbours Spurs. That was thoughtful, Spurs. Some suspect that the Tottenham team may have realised that the only way to realise their long-term ambitions is to keep Wenger firmly in post as long as possible down the road, who knows? In any case, a rejuvenated Arsenal responded to this stroke of fortune and rise in status by collapsing in hilarious fashion against Liverpool on the opening day. For reasons I won't go into, I was sat among the Gunners at the Emirates for that, and I think I overhead some discontent. Still, they showed their mettle in the next match by drawing 0-0 v Leicester City. That's a par performance in the APLT these days, of course, so hats off to them. Their last game they won away to Watford. So they seem to be building towards some form, and the visit of Southampton will be a great opportunity to show their real colours.

The Saints themselves have secured just two points from their opening three matches and would doubtless regard a draw here as an excellent result.

It's a Par 3 as it's at home for Arsenal.

Arsenal win:
ARS: -1

Saints win:
ARS: -4

Draw:
ARS: -3


Speaking of Spurs, they're next up, with a visit to Stoke City, which has been rescheduled from a wet Wednesday in December for reasons the Premier League have yet to explain. Stoke had a landmark season last year, something that got a bit lost amid the general weirdness of the campaign, finishing above Everton and Chelsea for the first time since (actually I can't be bothered checking back that far, but it must be aaaages, right?) Mark Hughes' transformation of the Potters from Tony Pulis' route one elbow merchants into Barcelona on Trent has been a fascinating project, but it's hard to see how they could realistically rise much higher, and in football, if you're not improving, you usually decline very quickly. Could that be why Stoke currently sit at the foot of the Trad table, with just a single point taken on the opening day at Middlesborough? Hard to say, and it may well be too early to judge them for this season (although you can get 11/2 for them to go down, gambling fans) but Tottenham should make short work of this one. The Spurs are making up for last season's collapse in a two horse race by remaining unbeaten in the league so far, with draws against both Merseyside clubs sandwiching a win over London's Crystal Palace. They were a tough side to beat last season, and have at least retained that steel in defence. They will see this as a chance to gain ground in the APLT while Stoke will be desperate to get anything at all from the game.

It's a Par 3, all the same, and a win would put Spurs back onto APLT title-winning form for the season so far.

Stoke win
SPU: -3

Spurs win
SPU: 0

Draw
SPU: -2


Another all APLT clash next, as Liverpool play their first game of the season at home, to APLT Champions Leicester City. Enough has been said about Leicester's rise to the top last season, the debate over whether to include them in the APLT at all ran on and on until an entertainingly late stage, and I for one will be surprised if they are still there at the same stage this season coming. But they proved me, and pretty much everyone else, wrong last time out, so who knows?
Building work at Anfield has led the Reds on an early tour, and got two tricky away fixtures out of the way. A par-busting win at Arsenal and a credible draw at Tottenham are the sort of results that get APLT followers excited. Sadly the loss away to lowly Burnley undid the hard work and Klopp's men now need to play a run of games (with Par 1 trips to Chelsea and Swansea coming up) to par to stay in contention. Normally you'd expect the Reds to beat Leicester at home, in front of the biggest Anfield crowd since the 60s, on their first home match of the season, marking the home debuts of several exciting new talents. "Normal" just doesn't seem to apply to Leicester, though. Despite an opening day loss to Hull, the Champions pulled off a draw at Arsenal and dispatched Swansea to put themselves level with Liverpool on Trad table points. They will not be overawed by the occasion, that's for sure.

It's a Par 3 for Liverpool.

Liverpool win:
LFC: -1

Leicester win:
LFC: -4

Draw:
LFC: -3

Which brings us to the final APLT match of the weekend, Sunday's hotly anticipated clash between Conte's Chelsea and Guidolin's Swansea City. Bringing a touch of Serie A to the Premier League, this is, on paper, a mis-matched duel between the haves and the have-not-quite-so-muches of the modern game. And on the pitch, it's likely to be a similar story. High-flying Chelsea sit atop the APLT on +2, having a 100% league record in their matches to date against Watford, West Ham and Burnley (which, we can attest, is harder than it looks.) The Swans, meanwhile have just three points on the Trad table, thanks to an opening day win over Burnley (well maybe not so much, then. Piss off.) and defeats to Hull and Leicester. Anything but a Chelsea win here would be enough make Gary Lineker threaten to do MOTD completely billy bollocks, and even Swansea fans might baulk at that.

It's a Par 1, despite the Swans' poor pedigree.

Chelsea win:
CHE +4

Swansea win:
CHE +1

Draw:
CHE: +2

There you go. (Someone check the maths, I feel sleepy.)
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Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2016, 08:49:33 am »
Thanks Nessy.  That was entertaining  :D

Offline Kochevnik

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2016, 07:12:20 pm »
Hello. Sorry I'm late. Thanks for setting up the new thread, Prof, looks almost as smart as the new Main Stand.

Here's a little APLT preview for the weekend, cos it's Friday:

So assuming this post is correct I make it:

Man City: +4
Chelsea: +2
Spurs: 0
Arsenal: -1
Liverpool: -1
Man United: -3

Going to be a very competitive year, but that looks about right to me.  City and Chelsea the most impressive so far, and then it's going to be a real race for the last two spots in the CL places.  Of course, lots of twists and turns out there to come!
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2016, 07:21:27 pm »
Oh, by the way, just in case anyone's interested Paul Riley (statto, Everton fan as it happens) publishes an expected goals table from time to time, here is the current edition:



For anyone who doesn't know, expected goals (or xG) is a measure of shots/shot location, or I suppose you could say it's a measure of chance creation.  Very often a team will go on a bit of a hot streak where they score a few goals in a row from lucky (or poorly located or chosen) shots, but they will almost always return to the mean predicted by xG, so it can be a measure of a club that's been a bit lucky/unlucky as well.

Like the APLT, it shows Chelsea and City as the teams performing the best, though it doesn't compensate for difficulty of opponent like the APLT.  Showing us ahead of United and basically even with Everton/Tottenham, despite having played a more difficult schedule than any of them, is a good sign for LFC.
Managers who have won fewer than three European Cups: Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola, Saachi, Hiddink, Hitzfeld, Clough, Happel, Trapattoni, Cruyff, Michels, Lobanovsky, Capello, and many more.
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Offline riismeister

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2016, 08:11:32 pm »
So basically this confirms that Stoke have been shit?

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2016, 08:40:47 pm »
It reckons Burnley should have scored 1 goal so far this season?  Well that's just great.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2016, 10:16:17 pm »



Offline Thush

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2016, 10:32:37 pm »
Prof, is there another colour you can use to distinguish Man Utd and Spurs please? I always struggle to tell them apart.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2016, 10:37:57 pm »
Prof, is there another colour you can use to distinguish Man Utd and Spurs please? I always struggle to tell them apart.
Suggestions?  As much as possible I try to keep it close to club colours.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2016, 10:55:54 pm »
Suggestions?  As much as possible I try to keep it close to club colours.
Well if we're doing that,Manchester untied could be shite brown
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2016, 11:11:42 pm »
Brown, Purple and Pink would all stand out.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 11:13:39 pm by drmick »

Offline sminp

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2016, 11:25:49 pm »
Well if we're doing that,Manchester untied could be shite brown

I was going to suggest this too ;D They play at the toilet after all
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2016, 12:15:29 am »
Yes. Brown would be a suitable choice. Thanks.

Offline riismeister

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2016, 01:53:07 am »
Really don't understand this concept?? Anyone care to put into laymans terms?
Each game has a "par score" of either 1 or 3.
- For away games against the teams who finished in the top 12 places last season "par" equals 1.
- For all home games and the remaining 7 away games "par" equals 3.

If you win a par 1 game you get +2 points in the APLT.   (3 points for a win - 1 point for par = 2 points)
If you draw a par 1 game you get 0 points in the APLT.   (1 point for draw - 1 point for par = 1 point)
If you lose a par 1 game you get -1 points in the APLT.    ""
If you win a par 3 game you get 0 points in the APLT.      ""
If you draw a par 3 game you get -2 points in the APLT.   ""
If you lose a par 3 game you get -3 points in the APLT.    ""

By "playing to par" you will stay on 0 points in the APLT. Over the course of a full season this is the same as getting 90 points in the real table (19 home wins * 3 points + 7 away wins * 3 points + 12 away draws * 1 point).

The idea is that by applying a "par score" for each game you take into account the difficulty of the fixtures (based on where each team placed the previous season), something which the actual table doesn't. This means that e.g. teamA might be a few points behind teamB in the real table after XX amount of games, but because of a much easier set of fixtures remaining teamA is still favorite to finish above teamB in the end.

PS: Anything wrong with this will certainly be corrected by Prof/Nessy76/Kochevnik by morning.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:55:04 am by riismeister »

Offline zabadoh

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2016, 02:47:18 am »
Are Leicester City actually a top 7 team this season and worthy of being a par 1?

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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2016, 09:14:09 am »
Are Leicester City actually a top 7 team this season and worthy of being a par 1?

It is based on last season when they won the League, so yes.

Really don't understand this concept?? Anyone care to put into laymans terms?

Looking at the traditional table tells you how many points each team has, but it doesn't account for how many of the hardest games they still have to play. The APLT sets out a fairly realistic model for winning the league and compares each team's actual performance against that level.

So at this point we can see that Manchester City are ahead of where you might expect if they were going to win the title. It often shows up if and when teams are struggling before the trad table will, or that a side is doing better than it might first appear by looking at the trad table. It's a useful alternative that helps to identify trends.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2016, 10:04:37 am »
Are Leicester City actually a top 7 team this season and worthy of being a par 1?

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Its the top 13 from last season who are a par 1 away from home.

Offline No23isCarragher

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2016, 11:37:43 am »
Suggestions?  As much as possible I try to keep it close to club colours.

I had an idea and decided to give it a go in excel to see how it looked. All I've done is added a secondary 'fill' colour to some of the series' to give them a combination that might be more recognisable as the team they represent. There's still a lot of blue but I think the white dots for spurs and the gold from leicester's badge help differentiate them from City and Chelsea.

Perhaps if Leicester maintain their poor form they can be dropped out of the table eventually ;D

Thanks for keeping this going, Prof. I've been following the threads from the start.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:27:47 pm by No23isCarragher »
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Offline Iska

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2016, 12:30:03 pm »


How about grey for Utd in honour of their best-ever kit?

Offline scalatore

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2016, 02:10:28 pm »
Oh I understand it, but it still seems daft
It literally just tells you what results a team should aim for if they want to win the league, based on a very simple weighting system. No wacky stuff, just a way of contextualizing results. You might not find it interesting, but I can't really see what you think is daft about it.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2016, 02:42:42 pm »
I think it's fairly obvious what we need to do to win the league and who's to say the top twelve from last season will be the tougher games this season, too many variables.

That point has been raised quite a few times before. Have a read:
Quote
2011-12 http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=278916.
2012-13 http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=296309.0
2013-14http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=306705.0
2014-15http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=315567.0
2015-16http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=322215

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2016, 03:39:29 pm »
Ok not what... It's just my opinion mate sorry I don't agree with everyone else like

That's fine that you don't agree with the concept.  I would assume that means you won't be posting in here anymore so those of us that are interested in the concept can have good discussions without having to skim past anymore pointless posts. 

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2016, 04:07:45 pm »
:lmao :lmao

Always have to laugh at people who basically say "I don't understand this so it must be shite."

I must admit, I never used to read this thread because based on the title I thought it was one of those things that were based on if decisions had gone our way etc.
The thing is it takes about a minute to understand, it is brilliant in its simplicity and at this time of the year - especially with our start- puts things into perspective. Thanks to prof and everyone else that gets involved.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2016, 04:19:04 pm »
Suggestions?  As much as possible I try to keep it close to club colours.
Grey / Light Grey?

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2016, 04:43:08 pm »
I think I'll leave this thread alone. It seems like a daft idea. The normal league table is a decent enough gauge of how we are doing to me.
:lmao

It's taken me years to understand... Check back in three months, it makes more sense then.

The idea is to even out home and away fixtures and games you should win.. Or something
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2016-17
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2016, 06:07:27 pm »
I'm not at all mate I'm a genuinely decent person, just don't understand the ridicule towards me

Well you come into a thread, take the piss and then get all coy and evasive when people ask you simple questions. What would you call that?

If you genuinely think the idea is "daft" why hang around if you aren't willing to explain what you mean by that, or have a useful discussion where you might learn something new? Instead, you're just being a bit rude. The fact you can't see the point doesn't mean it's pointless. Saying that just makes you look like a simpleton.

And as you might have picked up, it's not exactly the first time someone has come into one of these threads and declared it to be a waste of time because they don't understand what it's for or how it works. We're used to it. We know it's not something everyone is going to be interested in, or able to follow, but nobody is forcing you keep coming back.

On the other hand, we're always happy to try and explain what it's all about if you're genuinely interested.
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