Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 878571 times)

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6200 on: April 28, 2017, 01:23:30 pm »
Not sure why anyone wouldn't vote Labour in 2010 unless it was an Iraq protest and that didn't exactly work out well for us did it? In 2015 there were even less reasons not to vote Labour.

Some of the biggest Corbyn cheerleaders on here, very publicly voted Green in 2015.

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6201 on: April 28, 2017, 01:26:42 pm »
Sorry but the members (and I am one) can go fuck themselves if they think the business of Labour Party is about keeping them happy.

It's about the people in this country who most need a Labour Government. It's about being in power and doing the right thing.

So who makes the decisions on party policy, leadership etc? Who decides what is the 'right thing'?

I fucking hate the self-entitled pricks who say how Jeremy has re-invigorated their interest in politics. Whoop-de-fucking-doo.

Were the desperate people that apparently now need the personal leadership of Jeremy Corbyn not living in poverty, having wages cut and their rights taken away? Did the NHS suddenly fall into decline on the day that Corbyn's leadership campaign started.

Self entitled pricks the fucking lot of them

If he's challenged the view that politicians are all the same and that voting makes no difference then surely that's good? Or is it the fact that these people don't agree with you?
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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6202 on: April 28, 2017, 01:27:52 pm »
Some of the biggest Corbyn cheerleaders on here, very publicly voted Green in 2015.

I don't know who you're talking about so can't really comment on their motivation, maybe they'd just got an allotment.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6203 on: April 28, 2017, 01:33:58 pm »
You could argue that the PLP should take the decisions but they still have to be answerable to the members otherwise what's the point?

You could also argue that it's the PLP that have created the conditions for Corbyn to be elected in the first place so if there's blame to be apportioned they should take a fair share.

I voted for Corbyn because I didn't like any of the others. I've changed my mind about him a bit because of the way that Labour has dealt with Brexit and I'm not very happy with my Labour MP either but I'll be voting Labour because otherwise the Tories could easily nick the constituency I live in.

Any Labour supporters who are considering voting for someone other than Labour (unless it's a tactical voting thing) or not voting at all because of Corbyn should give themselves a bit of a shake.

Actually, the PLP is answerable to their constituencies, not the party. If there seems little point in being part of the party unless you're being pandered to, then note this was never a problem for the pre-Corbyn members.

Also, on the subject of people not voting Labour fucking off. Momentum's chief spokesman was a Tory in 2010 and Green in 2015. Then came Corbyn, and this Green Tory was suddenly one of the central figures in the Labour party, with more say in the party's affairs than Labour MPs.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6204 on: April 28, 2017, 01:35:53 pm »
So who makes the decisions on party policy, leadership etc? Who decides what is the 'right thing'?

If he's challenged the view that politicians are all the same and that voting makes no difference then surely that's good? Or is it the fact that these people don't agree with you?

On the biggest issue in my lifetime, Corbyn whipped his MPs to vote with the Tories. Contrary to the position I voted for in 2015 when I marked the box labelled Labour. What's that about all politicians being the same and voting making no difference?
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6205 on: April 28, 2017, 01:38:13 pm »
Actually, the PLP is answerable to their constituencies, not the party.

Answerable to their constituencies at election time but are they not selected (and possibly deselected) by their local party members?

Also, on the subject of people not voting Labour fucking off. Momentum's chief spokesman was a Tory in 2010 and Green in 2015. Then came Corbyn, and this Green Tory was suddenly one of the central figures in the Labour party, with more say in the party's affairs than Labour MPs.

A non-Labour voter now voting Labour? Cause for celebration surely?  ;D
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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6206 on: April 28, 2017, 01:40:56 pm »
On the biggest issue in my lifetime, Corbyn whipped his MPs to vote with the Tories. Contrary to the position I voted for in 2015 when I marked the box labelled Labour.

Same here, and you can add to that the fact that my area voted remain but my Labour MP voted with the whip and the Tories, but at this time and in my constituency I'm not going to run the risk of letting the Tories win it.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6207 on: April 28, 2017, 01:43:54 pm »
Answerable to their constituencies at election time but are they not selected (and possibly deselected) by their local party members?

A non-Labour voter now voting Labour? Cause for celebration surely?  ;D

James Schneider has never voted Labour in a general election AFAIK. He's campaigned against a sitting Labour MP. But he's never voted Labour.

And candidates are selected by their local party members, on the understanding that their eventual election is by the constituency's voters. The local party can choose who they are like, but once that's done, the candidate is not beholden to the local party, but to the constituency. Unless you'd like to argue otherwise.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6208 on: April 28, 2017, 01:45:36 pm »
Same here, and you can add to that the fact that my area voted remain but my Labour MP voted with the whip and the Tories, but at this time and in my constituency I'm not going to run the risk of letting the Tories win it.

And you don't hold the leader responsible for this? Note that said leader was the first MP to push for the immediate invocation of article 50. Before any Tories.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6209 on: April 28, 2017, 01:49:38 pm »
James Schneider has never voted Labour in a general election AFAIK. He's campaigned against a sitting Labour MP. But he's never voted Labour.

Will he vote Labour this time?

Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts  ;D

And candidates are selected by their local party members, on the understanding that their eventual election is by the constituency's voters. The local party can choose who they are like, but once that's done, the candidate is not beholden to the local party, but to the constituency. Unless you'd like to argue otherwise.

Not an expert on the local party processes so will bow to your superior knowledge but can't a sitting MP be deselected by the local party members as well? I always thought that they could.
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Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6210 on: April 28, 2017, 01:51:34 pm »
And you don't hold the leader responsible for this? Note that said leader was the first MP to push for the immediate invocation of article 50. Before any Tories.

I'm very, very cross with him (I bet he's shaking in his Hush Puppies about that) but in these circumstances I won't let it change the way I would have voted.

The alternative is worse.
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Offline zero zero

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6211 on: April 28, 2017, 02:04:04 pm »
Same here, and you can add to that the fact that my area voted remain but my Labour MP voted with the whip and the Tories, but at this time and in my constituency I'm not going to run the risk of letting the Tories win it.
In your shoes I do exactly the same.

What if you lived in a safe Labour seat, or as I do a safe Tory one. Do you still vote Labour regardless of how Corbyn has gone against the party's policies? Or do you vote for a pro-EU party?

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6212 on: April 28, 2017, 02:10:18 pm »
In your shoes I do exactly the same.

What if you lived in a safe Labour seat, or as I do a safe Tory one. Do you still vote Labour regardless of how Corbyn has gone against the party's policies? Or do you vote for a pro-EU party?

Not sure if many seats can be deemed 100% safe anymore, all depends on the turnout. If I lived in a very safe seat I might not vote as a bit of a protest or, as you suggest, vote for a pro-EU party so that at least their increase in support might register even if they didn't win.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6213 on: April 28, 2017, 02:22:13 pm »
I am a bit concerned about people not voting because they don't like the current leader, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Enough still voted Labour to win though

Not sure why anyone wouldn't vote Labour in 2010 unless it was an Iraq protest and that didn't exactly work out well for us did it? In 2015 there were even less reasons not to vote Labour.


Almost as many on here said they'd vote Lib Dem in 2010 as voted Labour. And the impact of the 'I'm With Nick' debate was interesting:

The other thread doesnt let you change your vote. It will be interesting to see who people will vote for after the debates. They can change their vote so we can see the swings before and after the debates...

The normalized percentages of votes between these 3 parties from the other thread (before the debate) are:

Labour : 50.8%
Lib Dems : 33.6%
Conservatives : 15.6%


Updated:

If we assume the people who voted were a random set, the swing towards Lib Dems is amazing.


Labour : 28.2 % (- 22.6 %)
Lib Dems : 59.2% (+ 25.4 %)  :o
Conservatives : 12.6% (- 2.8 %)


It seems to suggest a quarter of the people who watched the debate actually changed votes (towards Lib Dems, thats an assumption which I think is a fair one to make). The swings are incredible.
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Offline JP!

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6214 on: April 28, 2017, 02:58:50 pm »
I will still be voting Labour but this doesn't look good.

Thing is, what were the alternatives for Labour in both leadership elections?  Burnham couldn't break through and looked spineless after abstaining on the welfare bill (which I still think cost him the leadership), Kendall was running a campaign based on ideas that had just lost an election, Cooper was uninspiring, although has improved since, which left Corbyn.  The following year with the 'challenge' reminded me more of Everton's title challenges - pointless, since the only other candidate was Owen Smith, who frankly doesn't look like he could inspire a door to open.  Which left Corbyn.

There's a hell of a lot of people in and outside the party screaming 'BAD LEADER', and much of this is valid, but it's pointless without suggesting anyone better and/or coming forward themselves. Hilary Benn was outspoken, but never challenged him. Umunna has never challenged him. Jarvis won't either. Why?  It's easy to blame the whole 'membership having a vote' thing, but as someone who became a member to vote in both leadership elections, a good option in either one of the votes above would've changed where mine went, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

I'm only 27 but I've voted Labour in every election - I wasn't Green last time or Lib Dem in 2015.  There are so many of us blaming each other here and not trying to find any solutions.
I don't agree, he'd go to Legoland. Bye.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6215 on: April 28, 2017, 03:02:53 pm »
I will still be voting Labour but this doesn't look good.

Thing is, what were the alternatives for Labour in both leadership elections?  Burnham couldn't break through and looked spineless after abstaining on the welfare bill (which I still think cost him the leadership), Kendall was running a campaign based on ideas that had just lost an election, Cooper was uninspiring, although has improved since, which left Corbyn.  The following year with the 'challenge' reminded me more of Everton's title challenges - pointless, since the only other candidate was Owen Smith, who frankly doesn't look like he could inspire a door to open.  Which left Corbyn.

There's a hell of a lot of people in and outside the party screaming 'BAD LEADER', and much of this is valid, but it's pointless without suggesting anyone better and/or coming forward themselves. Hilary Benn was outspoken, but never challenged him. Umunna has never challenged him. Jarvis won't either. Why?  It's easy to blame the whole 'membership having a vote' thing, but as someone who became a member to vote in both leadership elections, a good option in either one of the votes above would've changed where mine went, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

I'm only 27 but I've voted Labour in every election - I wasn't Green last time or Lib Dem in 2015.  There are so many of us blaming each other here and not trying to find any solutions.

Well, last year's contest took place after Corbyn said his piece on 24th June. Of the two candidates, one supported fighting against Brexit, while the other supported the immediate invocation of article 50. The members made their choice whilst knowing this. No use claiming it's someone else's fault. You had your choice, and you made it, so own it.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6216 on: April 28, 2017, 03:09:14 pm »
Well, last year's contest took place after Corbyn said his piece on 24th June. Of the two candidates, one supported fighting against Brexit, while the other supported the immediate invocation of article 50. The members made their choice whilst knowing this. No use claiming it's someone else's fault. You had your choice, and you made it, so own it.

I do, you're right.  And I didn't think then, nor do I now, that Owen Smith would do any better.  The anti-Brexit vote is nowhere near as big as some people think it is.  Look at what happened in major Labour areas in the vote. Hell, look what happened everywhere.
I don't agree, he'd go to Legoland. Bye.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6217 on: April 28, 2017, 03:10:01 pm »
Not sure if many seats can be deemed 100% safe anymore, all depends on the turnout. If I lived in a very safe seat I might not vote as a bit of a protest or, as you suggest, vote for a pro-EU party so that at least their increase in support might register even if they didn't win.
So, do agree or disagree with the following post:
Any Labour supporters who are considering voting for someone other than Labour (unless it's a tactical voting thing) or not voting at all because of Corbyn should give themselves a bit of a shake.
I'm not trying to trip you up, it's just a bit more nuanced in a FPTP system. I genuinely don't believe there's anyone who posts in here that might not vote for Labour soley because of Corbyn the man. It's Corbyn and his actions surrounding Art 50 for many.

Or... why are we even having this election anyway? Despite being told that Labour were on a war-footing I was asked for my opinions on the manifesto after Labour agreed to go ahead with the election. WTF have they been doing all this time? This goes beyond simple incompetence.

Offline Danny Boys Dad

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6218 on: April 28, 2017, 03:16:25 pm »
So, do agree or disagree with the following post:

You're asking me to agree or disagree with myself?  ;D

What I meant was anyone who doesn't vote in a seat where their vote might count or who votes for another party in a seat where Labour might lose or otherwise win needs to have a think about it.

If you're in a seat that only the lib dems can win and you vote lib dem to get the Tories out or keep them out then that's different.

If a vote or lack of one costs Labour a seat or gains or keeps one for the Tories then that's what I'm talking about, just like people voting Lib Dem in 2010 let the Tories in.

I'm not trying to trip you up, it's just a bit more nuanced in a FPTP system. I genuinely don't believe there's anyone who posts in here that might not vote for Labour soley because of Corbyn the man. It's Corbyn and his actions surrounding Art 50 for many.

Or... why are we even having this election anyway? Despite being told that Labour were on a war-footing I was asked for my opinions on the manifesto after Labour agreed to go ahead with the election. WTF have they been doing all this time? This goes beyond simple incompetence.

If they turned it down I suppose the Tories would accuse them of being scared, could hardly turn it down because they weren't ready. Perhaps they believed May when she said she wasn't going to have one.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6219 on: April 28, 2017, 03:30:41 pm »
I do, you're right.  And I didn't think then, nor do I now, that Owen Smith would do any better.  The anti-Brexit vote is nowhere near as big as some people think it is.  Look at what happened in major Labour areas in the vote. Hell, look what happened everywhere.

If you're talking about that study about Labour's heartlands and how they voted in the referendum, note that Corbyn set out his Brexit position on the morning after the referendum, before said study was done. When the Tories were still cagey about what the referendum meant, Corbyn wanted article 50 invoked immediately.

In this election, I will vote for what Labour said they stood for in 2015, before Corbyn singlehandedly reversed their position.
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Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6220 on: April 28, 2017, 03:57:33 pm »
What I meant was anyone who doesn't vote in a seat where their vote might count or who votes for another party in a seat where Labour might lose or otherwise win needs to have a think about it.
I don't think there's many on here.
Quote
If they turned it down I suppose the Tories would accuse them of being scared, could hardly turn it down because they weren't ready. Perhaps they believed May when she said she wasn't going to have one.
You don't sound convinced and neither am I. It seems these days that whenever Labour votes with the Tories there some reason or other why The Opposition didn't do any opposing. Labour were protected by the Fixed Term Parliament Act; they/we could have just turned around and told May she's got Brexit negotiations to focus on and she should just get on with it.

Labour instead, decide to go ahead with an election that will most likely increase the Tory majority. So do I, or anyone, else back a Labour party that intent on turning itself from an (in)effective Opposition to a protest movement?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6221 on: April 28, 2017, 04:03:20 pm »
You don't sound convinced and neither am I. It seems these days that whenever Labour votes with the Tories there some reason or other why The Opposition didn't do any opposing. Labour were protected by the Fixed Term Parliament Act; they/we could have just turned around and told May she's got Brexit negotiations to focus on and she should just get on with it.

Labour instead, decide to go ahead with an election that will most likely increase the Tory majority. So do I, or anyone, else back a Labour party that intent on turning itself from an (in)effective Opposition to a protest movement?

I think that perhaps they should have done that but if there's a slim chance that they can get them out do you really blame them for taking it? I don't, I think it is a chance worth taking. Maybe.

Brexit isn't everything, by the time the next election would have come around what would remain of the NHS, the welfare state etc?
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6222 on: April 28, 2017, 04:19:03 pm »
I think that perhaps they should have done that but if there's a slim chance that they can get them out do you really blame them for taking it? I don't, I think it is a chance worth taking. Maybe.

Brexit isn't everything, by the time the next election would have come around what would remain of the NHS, the welfare state etc?

Hard Brexit is going to tank the economy, affecting everything else. Accepting the Tory narrative also legitimised bigotry, affecting much else that isn't directly covered by the economy. Brexit isn't everything, but it nearabouts affects everything. And Corbyn backed the Tory position on it. No, correction. He led the Tory position on it.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6223 on: April 28, 2017, 04:23:47 pm »
Thing is, what were the alternatives for Labour in both leadership elections?  Burnham couldn't break through and looked spineless after abstaining on the welfare bill (which I still think cost him the leadership), Kendall was running a campaign based on ideas that had just lost an election, Cooper was uninspiring, although has improved since, which left Corbyn.  The following year with the 'challenge' reminded me more of Everton's title challenges - pointless, since the only other candidate was Owen Smith, who frankly doesn't look like he could inspire a door to open.  Which left Corbyn.

I have some sympathy for this view, as the candidates were not outstanding. However, the problem (in my view) was created when the party indulged itself after the 2010 election by lurching to the left.

There is no doubt in my mind that we elected the wrong Miliband, and had David been the leader he would have been able to rebut the accusations about Brown tanking the economy, and presented a continuity to the best of the Blair government. I strongly believe that we would then have won the 2015 election against a pretty feeble Tory/Coalition record and thus the country would never have left the EU, and would be back implementing centrist and popular progressive policies. It would probably be the Tory party now imploding as its swivel-eyed tendency tore into their centrists, driving them out in favour of Kippers.

The pooch was well screwed when Ed stood and won against his brother. He then implemented the worst decision ever in the circumstances by allowing the membership so much voting power. Further self-destructive indulgence followed when the dumbest of fucks nominated Corbyn to 'widen the debate'.

And all this when we face a Conservative party known for its utterly ruthless pursuit of power, as amply shown by their abrupt coronation of May.They do whatever is necessary to win power - we fuck about with masturbatory fantasies, and in so doing, betray the millions of working people that depend on Labour to be in government. In so many ways, we deserve them abandoning the party in droves.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6224 on: April 28, 2017, 04:24:09 pm »
Hard Brexit is going to tank the economy, affecting everything else. Accepting the Tory narrative also legitimised bigotry, affecting much else that isn't directly covered by the economy. Brexit isn't everything, but it nearabouts affects everything. And Corbyn backed the Tory position on it. No, correction. He led the Tory position on it.

I'd agree with that but if Labour voted against the election on the basis that the Tories should get on with Brexit it also allows them to get on with dismantling the NHS, driving more and more people into poverty, cutting schools budgets etc etc etc.

Brexit is going to have an impact on everything, that's right, but for many people it's not the main thing they are looking at right now.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6225 on: April 28, 2017, 04:38:19 pm »
Well, last year's contest took place after Corbyn said his piece on 24th June. Of the two candidates, one supported fighting against Brexit, while the other supported the immediate invocation of article 50. The members made their choice whilst knowing this. No use claiming it's someone else's fault. You had your choice, and you made it, so own it.
Owen Smith didn't just oppose Brexit though. he said. "If the evidence shows Brexit will be a disaster then we should reconsider." he was mocked and jeered for saying this while Corbyn was cheered for disagreeing.
I still cant get my head around that. Smith is saying if Brexit looks like being a disaster for the country we shouldn't just plough on regardless and he gets booed.
Well they've got their wish. we are ploughing on regardless of the consequences.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6226 on: April 28, 2017, 04:43:00 pm »
I think that perhaps they should have done that but if there's a slim chance that they can get them out do you really blame them for taking it? I don't, I think it is a chance worth taking. Maybe.

Brexit isn't everything, by the time the next election would have come around what would remain of the NHS, the welfare state etc?
What chance does the NHS have when Labour have 80 less MP's? Labour had no right to start taking chances. Labour are so far behind in the polls, way beyond margin of error territory and they still consulting on the manifesto.

It's a fucking shambles. No communication campaign I've ever worked on started from the bottom up, as Labour are trying to do. Start with a central idea and go from there. It's going to be an incoherent, indecipherable mess. And they only finish consulting on May 2nd? Then they have to process that data. Give 'em a week. That leaves a month to come up with a strategy and communicate it. On top of that Labour have to reverse negative perceptions of the leader, negative perceptions of the party and respond to all the shit CCHQ will throw at them.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6227 on: April 28, 2017, 04:49:58 pm »
What chance does the NHS have when Labour have 80 less MP's? Labour had no right to start taking chances. Labour are so far behind in the polls, way beyond margin of error territory and they still consulting on the manifesto.

It's a fucking shambles. No communication campaign I've ever worked on started from the bottom up, as Labour are trying to do. Start with a central idea and go from there. It's going to be an incoherent, indecipherable mess. And they only finish consulting on May 2nd? Then they have to process that data. Give 'em a week. That leaves a month to come up with a strategy and communicate it. On top of that Labour have to reverse negative perceptions of the leader, negative perceptions of the party and respond to all the shit CCHQ will throw at them.

It's a big risk, yes, but there's an argument that it's a risk worth taking.

If they didn't support the GE vote then you can imagine the Tories in 2020 saying that Labour weren't ready to govern then (2017) and aren't ready now etc etc etc

It's a big risk and a big worry but I can see why they've done it.

The problem is that they spend so much time infighting and messing about that they are allowing the Tories to set the pace on everything.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6228 on: April 28, 2017, 04:55:38 pm »
It's a big risk, yes, but there's an argument that it's a risk worth taking.

If they didn't support the GE vote then you can imagine the Tories in 2020 saying that Labour weren't ready to govern then (2017) and aren't ready now etc etc etc

It's a big risk and a big worry but I can see why they've done it.

The problem is that they spend so much time infighting and messing about that they are allowing the Tories to set the pace on everything.

The PLP outside Corbyn's circle have largely held their fire since the contest last year. It's not as though Corbyn has covered himself in glory since then, so blaming infighting is a bit pointless. Corbyn and his people have had the party leadership to themselves for much longer than they've got left until the election. What will happen is entirely their responsibility and of those that voted for him, no one else's.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6229 on: April 28, 2017, 05:10:17 pm »
If they didn't support the GE vote then you can imagine the Tories in 2020 saying that Labour weren't ready to govern then (2017) and aren't ready now etc etc etc
So we commit to an election we're ill-prepared for and prove it? ;D

The thing is we can't let our actions be dictated by what the Tories will say. How much praise has Corbyn recieved for voting for the election? We should have only agreed to this election if we knew we had a good chance to win. We won't win because:

1. When times are uncertain people prefer stability - Brexit means uncertainty
2. Corbyn the man is toxic
3. We don't have a strategy, a manifesto or know how to communicate
4. We're massively behind in the polls when we at least need a good lead
5. Labour under Corbyn will never, ever mention New Labour or all the good it did in government. Just think about that. Labour will attempt to get into government without mentioning it's own record in government.

Quote
The problem is that they spend so much time infighting and messing about that they are allowing the Tories to set the pace on everything.
Ideology has taken precedence over winning elections.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 05:11:49 pm by zero zero »

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6230 on: April 28, 2017, 05:20:55 pm »
So we commit to an election we're ill-prepared for and prove it? ;D

The thing is we can't let our actions be dictated by what the Tories will say. How much praise has Corbyn recieved for voting for the election? We should have only agreed to this election if we knew we had a good chance to win.

Don't really agree with that. Why do parties like the Lib Dems and the Greens etc fight elections when they know they can't win?

I know that Labour are up against it and they might have been better voting against the election but they can't be seen to be backing down from it, which is how it would be spun.

We won't win because:

1. When times are uncertain people prefer stability - Brexit means uncertainty
2. Corbyn the man is toxic
3. We don't have a strategy, a manifesto or know how to communicate
4. We're massively behind in the polls when we at least need a good lead
5. Labour under Corbyn will never, ever mention New Labour or all the good it did in government. Just think about that. Labour will attempt to get into government without mentioning it's own record in government.
Ideology has taken precedence over winning elections.

Disagree with 1, the Tories won't provide stability, the hard brexit that they are advocating will be a massive shock. The best brexit for stability is a soft brexit or no brexit at all.

2 is a matter of opinion, I think May is toxic

3 is a bit of a worry

4 never liked polls

5 not sure that's entirely true but they could do more to highlight the good things that the last Labour government did, especially to counter the Tory accusations of wasting money.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6231 on: April 28, 2017, 05:38:05 pm »
Disagree with 1, the Tories won't provide stability, the hard brexit that they are advocating will be a massive shock. The best brexit for stability is a soft brexit or no brexit at all.
I agree, but Labour haven't been offering an alternative Brexit, they've voted with the Tories. Way too late to start urging caution with any credibilty.
Quote
2 is a matter of opinion, I think May is toxic
Who makes the best PM? 48% vs 28%
Quote
5 not sure that's entirely true but they could do more to highlight the good things that the last Labour government did, especially to counter the Tory accusations of wasting money.
They won't though.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6232 on: April 28, 2017, 05:46:08 pm »
Disagree with 1, the Tories won't provide stability, the hard brexit that they are advocating will be a massive shock. The best brexit for stability is a soft brexit or no brexit at all.

2 is a matter of opinion, I think May is toxic

3 is a bit of a worry

4 never liked polls

5 not sure that's entirely true but they could do more to highlight the good things that the last Labour government did, especially to counter the Tory accusations of wasting money.

1. It's not whether they actually provide stability - people tend to vote Tory in times of instability.

2. It is indeed a matter of opinion - and the opinion polls show that whatever you or I think Corbyn is toxic for a large part of the electorate.

3. Is more than a worry.

4. You may not like them and they give imperfect information but they are better than no information at all.

5. You're right. It's not entirely true - Corbyn has mentioned the achievements of the last Labour governments but he's never credited the two Prime Ministers who oversaw them. It's as if they appeared miraculously.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6233 on: April 28, 2017, 06:05:26 pm »
Wasn't long ago you were telling us all that you wouldn't vote Labour if Corbyn wasn't leader. Seems awfully 'do as I say, not as I do' of you.

Not to mention, misguide. Corbyn has expressed his delight at George Galloway taking a Labour seat. The man who Corbyn has writing the Labour manifesto supported a Class War candidate in an election against Labour. James Schneider was a paid up Lib Dem and lead their University Society. Then there's the countless associates of Corbyn and McDonnell who actively promote nasty parties like the SWP while they are competing with Labour. Just seems an odd critique when, as Banquo points out most of us in here have expressed how we're voting.

I have never said anything remotely like that mate. Wherever did you conclude that? All I want is the Tories gone. I have never in my life voted anything other than Labour and unless there was the unimaginable prospect in my True-Blue constituency of Tory banker Macclesfield that a Lib Dem had a chance to unseat Rutley, I WILL never vote anything other than Labour.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6234 on: April 28, 2017, 08:17:22 pm »
Anybody who considers themselves a traditional Labour voter in a Labour seat that could be at risk has to vote Labour imo, no matter how much it makes your skin crawl. 

Win or lose, Corbyn and his cabal will try to spin the result to try and justify remaining in office.  If Labour are massacred we will lose a lot of good MPs and it could allow the hard left to purge the party of moderates.  If Labour hold their ground, Corbyn's supporters will use it to say he has had some measure of success within a short space of time against a barrage of bad publicity and just needs more time.

Neither option is palatable, but at least retaining 180+ MPs might salvage the party in the long term.  A wipe out could make Labour virtually unelectable, in which case we'll all be better off switching to the Lib Dems. 

Either way it will be bloody.  My instincts tell me Corbyn wont stand down under any circumstances, and he has Unite backing him.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6235 on: April 28, 2017, 08:40:56 pm »
1. It's not whether they actually provide stability - people tend to vote Tory in times of instability.

2. It is indeed a matter of opinion - and the opinion polls show that whatever you or I think Corbyn is toxic for a large part of the electorate.

3. Is more than a worry.

4. You may not like them and they give imperfect information but they are better than no information at all.

5. You're right. It's not entirely true - Corbyn has mentioned the achievements of the last Labour governments but he's never credited the two Prime Ministers who oversaw them. It's as if they appeared miraculously.
why would the good man credit a psycopath?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6236 on: April 28, 2017, 08:44:34 pm »
why would the good man credit a psycopath?


There's the problem right there folks.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6237 on: April 28, 2017, 09:15:38 pm »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6238 on: April 28, 2017, 09:29:55 pm »
There's the problem right there folks.

That's not the voice of the left wing of the Labour party. That is the voice of the Labour party. And that's why the Labour party is done.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #6239 on: April 28, 2017, 10:33:47 pm »
why would the good man credit a psycopath?


And there it is.
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