Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 828820 times)

Offline soxfan

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #200 on: April 11, 2015, 05:12:47 am »
How many different ways are there to run a football club and what knowledge do you have of any of them, erm, Soxfan?
Well, erm, Retro Red, erm, I seem to know more about running a football club than the ranter who did zero research writing the original article.

Again, where is the documentation that states we could support a stadium of 70,000-80,000+? There's none. What research has the writer done? Zero. Has the writer got any evidence that the city could A) pay for and B) have interest in planning for, the massive infrastructure needed to support a stadium housing 25-35,000 more fans on matchdays? He has none. But the writer screams "We needs to has a big stadium like Barca and Yernited do, cuz we do!"

How to run a football club? Well, last time I checked Liverpool once had well-intentioned but not savvy businessmen, who then sold the club to H&G, who nearly imploded Liverpool into administration. FSG have now put the club on its firmest financial footing in eons, with a bigger stadium on the way and more commercial deals every year. I'd say that's a pretty smart way to run a club, how about you? Unless you lust for Roman Abramovich or another Russian thug to own us, or perhaps you're yearning more for a megabillionaire sheik?

And for those who say "this isn't baseball" -- what the hell do you think John Henry bought Liverpool for? How about thinking logically for a moment...

A) Henry could make far more money -- a lot faster, with less complications, with zero grief from supporters -- by focusing on the way he got to be a billionaire in the first place: investing. 

B) but instead, he buys a 2nd sports club, a less profitable venture...
 
C) and yet, some fans will try to convince you that Henry has decided "Well, I spend a shit ton on salaries on baseball players in order to win, and that has won me three titles in 11 years. That's a lot of fun! Most Boston fans appreciate and even love me for it!........But you know what? I'm going to do it differently at Liverpool. Instead of concentrating on my investment portfolio, or on having a winning football club to match my winning baseball club, I want to own a mediocre football club. We'll settle for 5th-6th place every year, and I won't spend much on players, and I'll have Liverpool fans constantly bitching and moaning at me. Yes, that sounds enjoyable! It's a good plan! I'm gonna do that instead."

Is the Premier League tougher to win than Major League Baseball? Yes, I'd say it is. There are 4 huge cash cows that Liverpool must compete with. But for someone to suggest that a snap of the fingers will catapult us into being a title-winning club -- well, it's just not realistic. We have to comply with FFP, and we don't have the money the other 4 do (though I think we can catch Arsenal soon enough). And to suggest that we're not well run is absurd. This will be a LONG process to get us back to competing for titles regularly, and there is an intelligent plan in place. The one fixable short-term weakness we have is in player scouting -- we simply can't afford to miss on signings like the richer clubs can. Hopefully that gets fixed this summer. But other than that? We're in damn good shape considering the mess we were in just a few short years ago. Appreciate it. 

 
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #201 on: April 11, 2015, 05:52:07 am »
he's asking for these owners to get on board for the long term <snip> and as a byproduct get the best for themselves.

No, I think you are missing the concern. The problem is, the article argues... with great antagonism I might add (which rubs a lot of people up the wrong way)... that in fact, there is not enough short termism, and they are only in it to get the best for themselves. Stated as fact without qualification.

So I find it curious why you would say he's asking for exactly that, given that the article is basically setup to pillorise these 2 precise points?

Btw, the needless attacks on people trying to bring some rationale to the conversation destroys all credibility.

I respect what you do, and agree it is one of the causes we should care about (but remember, you are only one stakeholder in all of this, and certainly are not representative of the views of everyone), but coming on here and preaching that it's your way or the highway is not a great way to actually work towards the goal the author sarcastically points out is dying... i.e. re-establish the LFC family :scarf
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 06:21:26 am by kcbworth »

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #202 on: April 11, 2015, 06:39:39 am »
And to suggest that we're not well run is absurd. This will be a LONG process to get us back to competing for titles regularly, and there is an intelligent plan in place. The one fixable short-term weakness we have is in player scouting -- we simply can't afford to miss on signings like the richer clubs can. Hopefully that gets fixed this summer. But other than that? We're in damn good shape considering the mess we were in just a few short years ago. Appreciate it. 
lol  "LONG" process eh. How long is "LONG", just curious?

And what's the "intelligent" plan in place, and when was it put in place? Because hiring Comolli was a complete joke. The more I read about Comolli's justifications that he fed FSG about Carroll and the other shite signings of that period the more I think FSG were simply hopeful that they could land a complete monster of a club the size of LFC, and once they did, had no bloody clue what to do with it. Calling Billy Beane and then hiring Comolli was the best they could do at that level??? And after spending hundreds of millions of dollars in players who are not even starters, or aren't at the club any more these past 3 years.....what is the plan again??

By the way, almost 5 years in and they haven't built a proper scouting network("fixable short-term weakness") yet?? You see ANY indication of them fixing this 5 year "short term" weakness anytime soon? I'm sure you'll have more creative excuses in two years if this "fixable short term weakness" hasn't been fixed or is sputtering. Oh wait, I know what the excuse will be: it's a LONG short term process?

Offline Wingman

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #203 on: April 11, 2015, 06:42:12 am »
So we need to buy all the best players in their peak years and pay them whatever they like - and we do this by building (and funding) an 80k stadium filled with scousers only on affordable tickets?

"Welcome to the sweet spot"? Welcome to the real world more like

Offline penga

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #204 on: April 11, 2015, 07:19:34 am »
lol  "LONG" process eh. How long is "LONG", just curious?

And what's the "intelligent" plan in place, and when was it put in place? Because hiring Comolli was a complete joke. The more I read about Comolli's justifications that he fed FSG about Carroll and the other shite signings of that period the more I think FSG were simply hopeful that they could land a complete monster of a club the size of LFC, and once they did, had no bloody clue what to do with it. Calling Billy Beane and then hiring Comolli was the best they could do at that level??? And after spending hundreds of millions of dollars in players who are not even starters, or aren't at the club any more these past 3 years.....what is the plan again??

By the way, almost 5 years in and they haven't built a proper scouting network("fixable short-term weakness") yet?? You see ANY indication of them fixing this 5 year "short term" weakness anytime soon? I'm sure you'll have more creative excuses in two years if this "fixable short term weakness" hasn't been fixed or is sputtering. Oh wait, I know what the excuse will be: it's a LONG short term process?
What can you expect mate? They were not football people and had no knowledge of the people involved in the game so had to hire people to make decisions for them based on recommendations by others. At least we got Suarez during that period! Even though that's not the point. Comolli got sacked fairly shortly after so they know if something is not right they will correct it, what more can they do? They have appointed football people to do their scouting, ananlysing and managing, if those football people fail to do a good job then they can replace them. It's not Henry or Werner deciding which players to sign, they can only release the funds and put in place the financial structure for the signings.

We don't know how the scouting network works but fuck I hope they improve it as well. We do know that they are young owners in football and not the sugardaddy type which means there will be mistakes and those mistakes will have bigger consequences. But they are learning, just like our manager, just like our young core group of players. The "intelligent plan" refers to the increased sponsorship and evaluation of methods to increase revenue such as upgrading Anfield in order to compete with the big clubs in the presence of FFP and that has to also include intelligent player recruitment which for the most part hasn't happened yet but you have to just hope it will and it is clearly one of their goals. Do you think they are happy signing Andy Carrolls? Fuck no.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 07:22:08 am by penga »

Offline penga

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #205 on: April 11, 2015, 07:53:37 am »
Don't you get it?

LFC is part of a financial group.

Their ownership strategy sees us grow in value (no real benefit to LFC) making their financial group worth more and able to leverage more investment for other things.

In the meantime the value of LFC grows so when they are ready they cash in (and who knows when this will be?) and make a profit having bought LFC for a song.

Don't think FSG's and LFC's interests are identical.
I fully agree that the club should always cherish the local support and that local support makes Liverpool what it is (even coming from a foreign perspective such as myself) and they could definitely do more to improve match day experience and encourage traditions, singing, low ticket prices, etc. This could make it a bit harder to compete financially but you can't lose the identity of the club with a support known as one of the best in the world, working class passion and all. But as PoP said maybe it would be prudent to separate this argument from the one about their ambitions/goals/business. As PoP said maybe this should be separated from the issues regarding their ownership/strategy/goals/business although they can overlap a bit.

I just want to ask the question aside from the ticketing issues, what can you actually expect from an American sports group coming into LFC with very little knowledge of football and then compare that to our previous two owners as well as the owners of the other clubs in the EPL? We got the feeling that they were swooping in on an opportunity with the state we were in when H&G went bust in order to profit and build us back up knowing we had a big global presence and potential. What they have done well so far is increase the revenue stream via sponsorships and such to allow us to compete sustainably with FFP rules and obviously they have their own models and ideas with regard to player recruitment (the latter) which us fans have not been entirely happy with to date. I don't think you can criticise them too much on the stadium upgrade, they listened to the fans (i.e. try to keep heritage in design, don't move to Stanley Park/ground share/rename stadium) and the council's restrictions and guidelines. At least we know it will happen unlike the previous regime which was just blatant lies.

The thing I don't get from this article's and by extension your point of view is that it seems you are viewing them as something like the devil and everything is negative. The question I ask is if LFC is successful on the pitch doesn't that makes us grow in value more than whatever it can be as a supposedly mediocre 5th-8th club which were the state we were in? And does that not then align the goals of LFC and FSG who we at least have a big example of them doing well on and off the field for a sports club in the Boston Red Sox? And then whatever they choose to do in the future whether it be sell or keep at least they would have progressed the club. So those goals are aligned and they have said as much and shown it through their attempts. The fact/opinion that have not got it right yet is agreed but it is very logical that they are trying to attain success on the pitch which is what we all want.

You cannot assume they will cash in LFC soon (and if you don't like them why would that be a big deal?), they may hold on for 10 years or more who knows? Also to me a football club is not really a logical business to invest in when there are so many others that can give you a better return while most football clubs run at a loss. It might help them raise their own profile or the profile of their other stakes though but maybe they also enjoy owning sports clubs due to the different challenges and perks?


Offline Fordy

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #206 on: April 11, 2015, 08:21:43 am »
Whoever is in charge of contracts need to start realising that this is a football club and penny pinching until the last minute.

To have 3 of your main players going into next season without their contract situation sorted is just not helpful to any manager.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 08:51:39 am by Fordy »

Offline BigRedOne

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #207 on: April 11, 2015, 08:44:43 am »
Fuck me it's dangerous to go 'off the FSG message' on here isn't it. I think the tone of the TAW piece has been successful in that it has certainly livened up the debate. It worries me though that there are so many on here who appear totally blind to the fact that the local support, that is the heart and soul of LFC, is being priced out of the game.

It may surprise many of you to know but Retro has actually stated elsewhere that FSG are probably the best owners we've had in his lifetime? That does not mean that their actions won't damage the club through ignorance if not through greed.

First off I accept that FSG's ownership of Liverpool FC is not purely in a hedgefund capacity. It's more of a sporting vanity project for rich hedgefunders who want LFC to be successful but will still run the club in a hedgefundy way.

The big problems for me are that they're absent owners, LFC are not the priority in their sporting portfolio and Baseball and Football are totally different and worlds apart when it comes to 'fan culture'.  I was watching an American cop show recently and as I've seen in numerous other American shows ' tickets for the game' were used as a bribe and as they're like gold dust they always achieve the required result. In the states large cities have huge populations numbering in the millions with fans resigned to the fact that actually attending the game regularly is nigh on impossible and I worry that FSG and their 'sweet spot' will lead to the same situation here.

With over 20,000 on a closed ST waiting list we are in desperate need of a bigger ground asap, that meets the needs of reasonably priced tickets for locals as well more capacity for the wider 'Liverpool Family' not just maximising ticket revenue through corporate seats while keeping demand high amongst ordinary supporters.

As to winning things FSG have still to prove to me that they want more than a nice return on their investment in promising young players to be moved on at a profit and replaced with more young potential. I understand that we need to be clever in how we operate but that to me means astute investment in players and paying out the big bucks when necessary. Alarm bells rang for me when we didn't get Sanchez, never mind the lure of London bollocks, he was one player who could have gone part way the replacing the little bitey racist and the fact we failed to get him makes me question FSG's ambition.

Maybe FSG are learning and willing to embrace our culture but if so they need to start proving it. The average age of the Kop is increasing all the time and with local youngsters priced out of regular match going who will replace them, more fans with selfy-sticks and bags for the club shop? It would be far more profitable for FSG but Liverpool FC as we know it would become another global soccer ball franchise with the heart and soul ripped out of it. How long then before our global fan base get fed up with the lack of atmosphere and move on to the next global sporting trend?

I think we need to praise FSG for what they do well but to blindly ignore the dangers of being the second most important asset in an American sporting hedgefund portfolio is madness. This is not about locals v OOTs it's about ensuring the needs of both are met and that LFC remains challenging at the very top.


Offline penga

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #208 on: April 11, 2015, 09:13:26 am »
Fuck me it's dangerous to go 'off the FSG message' on here isn't it. I think the tone of the TAW piece has been successful in that it has certainly livened up the debate. It worries me though that there are so many on here who appear totally blind to the fact that the local support, that is the heart and soul of LFC, is being priced out of the game.

It may surprise many of you to know but Retro has actually stated elsewhere that FSG are probably the best owners we've had in his lifetime? That does not mean that their actions won't damage the club through ignorance if not through greed.

First off I accept that FSG's ownership of Liverpool FC is not purely in a hedgefund capacity. It's more of a sporting vanity project for rich hedgefunders who want LFC to be successful but will still run the club in a hedgefundy way.

The big problems for me are that they're absent owners, LFC are not the priority in their sporting portfolio and Baseball and Football are totally different and worlds apart when it comes to 'fan culture'.  I was watching an American cop show recently and as I've seen in numerous other American shows ' tickets for the game' were used as a bribe and as they're like gold dust they always achieve the required result. In the states large cities have huge populations numbering in the millions with fans resigned to the fact that actually attending the game regularly is nigh on impossible and I worry that FSG and their 'sweet spot' will lead to the same situation here.

With over 20,000 on a closed ST waiting list we are in desperate need of a bigger ground asap, that meets the needs of reasonably priced tickets for locals as well more capacity for the wider 'Liverpool Family' not just maximising ticket revenue through corporate seats while keeping demand high amongst ordinary supporters.

As to winning things FSG have still to prove to me that they want more than a nice return on their investment in promising young players to be moved on at a profit and replaced with more young potential. I understand that we need to be clever in how we operate but that to me means astute investment in players and paying out the big bucks when necessary. Alarm bells rang for me when we didn't get Sanchez, never mind the lure of London bollocks, he was one player who could have gone part way the replacing the little bitey racist and the fact we failed to get him makes me question FSG's ambition.

Maybe FSG are learning and willing to embrace our culture but if so they need to start proving it. The average age of the Kop is increasing all the time and with local youngsters priced out of regular match going who will replace them, more fans with selfy-sticks and bags for the club shop? It would be far more profitable for FSG but Liverpool FC as we know it would become another global soccer ball franchise with the heart and soul ripped out of it. How long then before our global fan base get fed up with the lack of atmosphere and move on to the next global sporting trend?

I think we need to praise FSG for what they do well but to blindly ignore the dangers of being the second most important asset in an American sporting hedgefund portfolio is madness. This is not about locals v OOTs it's about ensuring the needs of both are met and that LFC remains challenging at the very top.
How is it dangerous? It maybe becomes dangerous calling posters out to be working as FSG guardians or whatever which is disrespectful to posters on this forum. Your post is a more reasoned discussion. I think most on this forum would agree with most that you typed with regards the the ticketing and culture. Where our opinions can differ is mainly on the ambition and strategy of the club with player recruitment which for me is not unreasonable compared to a vicious attack on almost all aspects of their overall ownership which the tone of this article does. Like the players' demeanour against Real Madrid - FSG are responsible for the mentality of the match day squad and Gerrard or Johnson smiling to Ronaldo's wink? If you want to write an article and blame things then you would be looking at the players themselves and the manager. Is Gerrard small time?

Offline BigRedOne

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #209 on: April 11, 2015, 09:21:26 am »
Not sure what you mean about Gerrard? But on you're first point, to get a titty lip about the way Retro made his point and to find that more important than the points he's trying to make is very dangerous in my opinion.

Stop taking it personally and see he's making very valid points that deserve serious debate.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #210 on: April 11, 2015, 09:49:10 am »
There has been a change of relative values in the game. These have affected Liverpool FC.

1. Money is now everything, but the club always had revenues to spend and compete.
2. The club had scouting systems (usually a manager) who could obtain bargains, even at high prices. There was a good ratio of successes to failures. Paisley was the master, but Shankly, Kenny Mk1, and Rafa did well. Clough and Ferguson had the same ability. That has changed.
3. A local fan base that filled the stadium and made a difference. As the importance of money has increased the relevance of supporters has become less significant. Quantity is more important than quality. The season ticket holder is now an inconvenience and atmosphere has declined.
4. Pre-Bosman, not only did players want to stay – it was difficult for them to leave. We could fool ourselves into believing that they were as loyal was we were. As money has increased they now want double the amount to sign on the line. In the post-match interview they say, “The important thing is the team” – then employ an agent to say the opposite.

I hate it all now. I hate the commercialisation, the video games on advertising hoardings, the endless sponsors. Instead of wanting to contribute to success, as we supporters did when we were relevant, everyone just wants to be associated with success.

Within that context, FSG have done what they said they’d do. They have taken large personal risks and haven’t put the risks on the club, as Gillett and Hicks did. They may now be realising they’re in an arms race. The eye-watering increase in TV money will disappear into players’ and agents’ pockets without a wage cap. I find it difficult to criticise them. It’s the game I hate now.

Ultimately, you have the choice of accepting the new rules or walking away. I decided to walk away.

Offline free_at_last

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #211 on: April 11, 2015, 10:03:19 am »
Are there any football owners in the world who would continue to finance deficit spending apart from the obvious who most Liverpool
fans agree we wouldn't be part of?
So we are left hoping for owners who wont soak us dry and leave a carcass behind but will endeavour to finance us within boundaries(FFP and the
amount of revenue we can bring in).
I could say they appear to be performing better thatn foreign owners at Villa, QPR, Hull etc and that could be down to our already enormous
worldwide support but I can't really see what people would expect after 5 years.
I remember the outgoing Martin Broughton saying that it would take 2 or 3 years to turn around our finances after H&G nearly put us into
administration. FSG have owned us for 5 years and we are competing against 3/4 mega rich clubs.
They have increased our revenue - they brought Liverpool here to Australia when none of the previous administrations had managed it in our history..and
    yes they did make money out of the trip but also nailed on thousands more fans(so much so that we are back here this year).
FSG have lent the money to Liverpool FC to extend Anfield when previous administrations have hummed and hahed and ended up doing nothing.
We have had the debate about the new or extended stadium for years and I think most fans agreed that the redevelopment was the best option. We have
got that at very little eventual cost and the ground may be extended again. What is the alternative - who will pay for a new ground with cheap tickets?
It's mathematics plain and simple. Do we expect people from the U.S(or anywhere) to toss us a 500 million or so? If we don't want to be owned by investors
who are we expecting to finance our rise to the top over the mountains of cash of Ivanovich, Sheiks and Glaziers?
I really don't see what people expect from them after such a short time. They have intimated that they are looking at the question of atmosphere so
maybe there will be something in the pipeline for young locals but we can't have our cake and eat it. Throw Chelsea like money at players but give
away enough cheap tickets to make a difference - I can't see an answer to that.
I'm certainly not gullible about venture capitalism but I think we could get far worse owners. We could have have stayed private under Moores but
we chose to gamble on our present strategy..one brush with administration later we are showing signs of getting back to our previous status but
nothing is guaranteed..for me they've done a decent job so far and I don't think there are many alternatives out there.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #212 on: April 11, 2015, 10:05:02 am »

Stop taking it personally and see he's making very valid points that deserve serious debate.

It would be helpful to any discussion if people were not constantly being accused of being FSG moles , or apologists  or other such nonsense, just because they don't find fault with everything that the owners are doing.

As for the points regarding possible solutions to reduce prices for locals or other ways to improve the atmosphere I for one welcome the debate , and I think that is something far more tangible and attainable and indeed something most people would get behind , but I am not so sure this article gets that point across well enough.

There are lessons to  be learnt on how to  do these things, I mean we can look over to Germany and see how lower ticket prices are filling up stadiums every match, we can also look to Italy , where the only people who turn up for  the games are the hardcore supporters and the stadiums are half empty.

Come back with a plan that will allow the club to retain its identity , be competitive on the field and with ways for affordable tickets for locals , and I am sure even hardened keyboard warriors like myself would get behind it.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #213 on: April 11, 2015, 10:10:38 am »
The fact that we're sailing very close to the limit of FFP surely means wee can't do any more ? And they've got the stadium expansion underway.

The only route available is a sugar daddy pumping millions into the club via spurious back door sponsorship deals ?

I'm not laying a red carpet out for them like, but let's at least be fair.

If there's a genuine bugbear then it's their model, but even then you have to understand they're following one that everyone knows 'can' work.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #214 on: April 11, 2015, 10:32:43 am »
Perhaps the thread title should have "good" removed... ::)

It's a fucking great article. We arnt in free all or anything ridiculous but we ain't moving forward either. We are trying to be managed into a sweet spot, but not to the benefit of the people that matter - the fans
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Offline penga

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #215 on: April 11, 2015, 10:37:39 am »
Not sure what you mean about Gerrard? But on you're first point, to get a titty lip about the way Retro made his point and to find that more important than the points he's trying to make is very dangerous in my opinion.

Stop taking it personally and see he's making very valid points that deserve serious debate.
I didn't take it personally and it was posted before I made a post in this thread anyway, but it's not great accusing posters as FSG moles to make help you make a point as one of the posters above me just said, that's basically closing yourself in from all discussion as well as being disrespectful and  has the potential connotation of dividing locals from foreigners. The article clearly references something along the lines that we are in awe of other teams (madrid) and a weak mentality and implies it stems from the owners and uses Gerrard himself as an example of the old school attitude. I was just trying to make the point the whole article was very negative and something like that is a long bow to draw and you should look more at the players themselves or the manager as ironically the captain Gerrard himself was behaving in the way the article described with his smile at Ronaldo's wink.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #216 on: April 11, 2015, 10:45:41 am »
It would be helpful to any discussion if people were not constantly being accused of being FSG moles , or apologists  or other such nonsense, just because they don't find fault with everything that the owners are doing.
It would also help if the FSG moles, apologists supporters did not accuse other supporters who don't worship everything FSG do as being "haters" or anti-FSG.  ;)

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #217 on: April 11, 2015, 10:48:07 am »
It would also help if the FSG moles, apologists supporters did not accuse other supporters who don't worship everything FSG do as being "haters" or anti-FSG.  ;)

Well I probably get called a mole/whatever more than most and don't do any of the latter you mention.

It's why I've not even bothered to comment on the article in here, I honestly can't be bothered as know rather than read my post I'll have a handful if people just attack me directly (I could probably name them in advance too).

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #218 on: April 11, 2015, 10:50:42 am »
It's a fucking great article. We arnt in free all or anything ridiculous but we ain't moving forward either. We are trying to be managed into a sweet spot, but not to the benefit of the people that matter - the fans

So seeing the first bit of expansion in 17 years is not moving forward?

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #219 on: April 11, 2015, 10:51:33 am »
I didn't take it personally and it was posted before I made a post in this thread anyway, but it's not great accusing posters as FSG moles to make help you make a point as one of the posters above me just said, that's basically closing yourself in from all discussion as well as being disrespectful and  has the potential connotation of dividing locals from foreigners. The article clearly references something along the lines that we are in awe of other teams (madrid) and a weak mentality and implies it stems from the owners and uses Gerrard himself as an example of the old school attitude. I was just trying to make the point the whole article was very negative and something like that is a long bow to draw and you should look more at the players themselves or the manager as ironically the captain Gerrard himself was behaving in the way the article described with his smile at Ronaldo's wink.

But it's ok for someone to accuse SOS of wanting a sugar daddy, because the person who wrote the article happens to be a member?
Nowhere in that article does Peter say that he wants a sugar daddy and nowhere in that article does he say he is representing SOS.

So you know people in glass houses and all that.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #220 on: April 11, 2015, 10:56:29 am »
It would also help if the FSG moles, apologists supporters did not accuse other supporters who don't worship everything FSG do as being "haters" or anti-FSG.  ;)

I completely agree , and I do not recall calling anyone anti-fsg, I am not one for petty name calling, certainly not when it comes to an issue like this.
In fact I rarely post on this board anymore, even though I come on here everyday, but the way the stall is being set out  , it is coming across as fairly black and white , with us or against us claptrap that will do nothing to move forward and add no value to the discussion.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #221 on: April 11, 2015, 10:58:04 am »
What can you expect mate? They were not football people and had no knowledge of the people involved in the game so had to hire people to make decisions for them based on recommendations by others.
I understand they were not football people (I don't think they are yet either! and I don't think they give a rat's *ss about it either)So of all the people they could have contacted they called a baseball guy who recommended Comolli? And with all the money and resources available they hired Roy Hodgson??? Now add to that all the money wasted on "talent" in 3 years and tell me who are the geniuses advising these guys so maybe we can recommend them to Van Gaal....somehow.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:01:03 am by LiverBirdKop »

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #222 on: April 11, 2015, 11:01:52 am »
The fact that we're sailing very close to the limit of FFP surely means wee can't do any more ? And they've got the stadium expansion underway.

The only route available is a sugar daddy pumping millions into the club via spurious back door sponsorship deals ?

I'm not laying a red carpet out for them like, but let's at least be fair.

If there's a genuine bugbear then it's their model, but even then you have to understand they're following one that everyone knows 'can' work.


The article underlines that FSG could do more and that their interests do not align exactly with those of LFC - surely a pre-requisite for any owners?

They have a huge untapped potential that they are being challenged to invest in to get return for the benefit of LFC while still meeting FFP issues and good housekeeping.

We have a chance slipping through our fingers that once lost will be incredibly difficult to get back.

A few points - the Main Stand does little to address the general admission/season ticket issues with a membership of over 100,000 (admittedly not all likely to want access) and a ST waiting list of 20,000 plus.

Also remember, the building of the stand and the income it generates will do nothing for on the field until it is paid off - FSG have said this, repay the cost, then reap the benefit.

Long term owners with their interests completely aligned with those of LFC could look at investing larger sums, over a longer term, meet the challenge of addressing the undoubted (current) need and also use some of the extra income generated now to keep us competitive. Remember FFP allows investment for capital projects and we do not get caught by investment of this type being beyond what we are generating commercially.

We've gone beyond any issue about them being careful owners and being better financial managers than Moores or H&G, where we are now is that the FSG strategy is diverging from the LFC needs.

And their approach is linked to atmosphere and supporters - they admit they have targeted the redevelopment to maximise income per seat while the real elephant in the room is that their strategy might increase their hedge fund's value and the ultimate capital value for LFC neither of which helps LFC nor addresses the fact that those that will generate the atmosphere are being priced out to service FSG's interests.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #223 on: April 11, 2015, 11:06:38 am »
Graham, you completely ignore the fact that the club has spent a lot of money on feasibility studies for expanding the stadium, they know the demand and this is the number they have come to. You also ignore the part where anything higher than 60k requires the full transport infrastructure in and around Anfield to be upgraded at a huge cost.. Where does this money come from? It would come from higher ticket prices, we have to live within our means and that is sub 60k.. For now..

I fully agree that more needs to be done to get the atmosphere back to Anfield - primarily in getting the Kop structured better.. These are valid points but they get lost in the rest which just strikes me as petty point scoring against FSG.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #224 on: April 11, 2015, 11:16:39 am »
Graham, you completely ignore the fact that the club has spent a lot of money on feasibility studies for expanding the stadium, they know the demand and this is the number they have come to. You also ignore the part where anything higher than 60k requires the full transport infrastructure in and around Anfield to be upgraded at a huge cost.. Where does this money come from? It would come from higher ticket prices, we have to live within our means and that is sub 60k.. For now..

I fully agree that more needs to be done to get the atmosphere back to Anfield - primarily in getting the Kop structured better.. These are valid points but they get lost in the rest which just strikes me as petty point scoring against FSG.

Absolutely disagree - the studies they have done suggest that THEY don't want a larger redevelopment as it involves their investment vehicle making a much longer term investment than they want to.

It is all doable, we won't even go into the circular debate about them raising huge investment from their greatest asset.

The myth of "it can't be done" is unchallenged because it gets repeated so often it becomes some sort of self fulfilling prophecy.

The atmosphere and issue about the culture of LFC is intrinsically linked to addressing the stadium size and accessibility to pinch part of a post from another site:

"What value should be placed on our cultural capital for the sake of success on the pitch or even worse, to increase the value of the asset?

This is our club, it's a pillar of our community, the most important example of civic pride that this city and its wider region has ever produced. It was built by our relatives and the people (managers, players etc) their contributions (gate money) were able to pay for."
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #225 on: April 11, 2015, 11:17:38 am »

Shanks, Bob Paisley , and Emlyn Hughes  and many others from our glorious past would be turning in their graves to even remotely consider that Liverpool is in any way a feeder club…We, the mighty Liverpool Feeding FFS? 
How dare some people even suggest that Liverpool are a rung down from the so-called big boys of European football. This is rightly what the article is talking about!
How dare some players believe they have better options away from Anfield!
How dare some of our supporters come into the ground wearing those fucking wretched halfie-halfie rags around their necks!
Some of us remember the origins of our club and the swagger that we had throughout the 60s, 70s and eighties. The nights at Wolves when we won the League, winning the League against Leicester at home with Shanks at his arrogant best. Graciously  applauding Don Revie’s Leeds off the park when they won the League at Anfield and one of the scariest aways ever after  Tottenham away in 1982.Not to mention all the other chapters in our both uniquely sad yet supremely happy history as a football club. Hillsborough, Heysel, The Olympic Stadium Rome, Molyneux , and many others should be  etched into our collective psyche. This is who and what we are. Not fucking selfie-sticks and halfie-halfie scarves.
Make no mistake. There was no bigger than Liverpool then, and THERE IS STILL NO BIGGER THAN LIVERPOOLNOW. Liverpool might not be Real Madrid or Barcelona, but Barcelona and Real  WILL NEVER EVER BE LIVERPOOL. This is what young players AND some of our own supporters need to understand. Leaving Liverpool is a step down, and it doesn’t matter where to. Am I totally deluded? Maybe, but then again so was King Bill.
 Even then we didn’t have the money to compete with the big Italian and Spanish clubs but we were Liverpool and by fuck everyone knew it. There was no suggestion that you could move on to better things. Playing for Liverpool was as good as it got.  There was no better (and there IS STILL NO BETTER!) Poor old Kevin Keegan was one of the first to be pilloried for wanting away, but in retrospect his reasons were far more noble than some of the one-day wonders playing the game these days. He had won everything with us and he simply  wanted to leave to have a go at living and playing abroad.
But then again, we live in a different football world and in a very different world than 20,30 years ago.  What do Sterling and co. have in common with Shanks Chris Lawler  and some of our other greats who have had the privilege of playing for us? Do these guys know about our unrivaled past and do hey really appreciate what energy runs through the grass roots of this club? Very little it appears.
 Before any player signs for our club I’d take them on a journey through the pubs of Liverpool 4 on match day and to finish I’d get them sitting in a room with Pink Floyd’s Fearless on a full blast with images of our glorious past beamed up onto a screen in front of them. Then I’d ask them, “ do you want to sign for Liverpool?” . If they have to think about it I’d tell them to do one there and then.  Some things money just cannot buy.
Agreed, we need sound business men who have a long-term plan, balance the books but who, at the same time, are going to compete to get the best by ploughing cash into the club. Our owners and management need to be  top drawer salespeople who are able to sell the romance of our special club to prospective players. Our owners also need to make money on their investment  absolutely. But, they have to totally believe in the romance of our special club too. If they don’t buy into that one they might as well get shut now. This isn’t Chelsea, United or Real. This is Liverpool. The Holy Grail of football clubs for crying out loud.
 Putting extra seats in the stadium is a start. More local bums need to be sitting on those seats, and I am the first to admit that a lot of Scousers have lost the passion and belief too. Perhaps a bus-full of Jakarta or Sydney Reds a week might just show some worn-out  locals that it’s time to participate or give up their season tickets. I’d also get shut of the away supporters from behind the goal and stick them up in the Main Stand.
The modern world is a million miles away from the Shankly, Rowdy Yeats  era of rough and tumble and gritty passion. A lot of modern fans (our own included of course) are inevitably going to have more in common with the X-factor pretty –boy Ronaldo-esque selfie generation.
This new generation also needs to learn about our history.
Our support needs to reclaim itself too .  A start but be to sort of the allocation of tickets to the Kop and to get the ground buzzing half an hour before matches. Ban photography, and ban the wankfest  halfie-halfie scarves. Admitted you’ll never get fever pitch atmosphere against Stoke in November, but you’ll get them learning the words for the big Wednesday nights in February and March.
If we don’t believe that we’re the best then we might as well pack up now. I will believe it till the day I die. This generation also need to be the New Romantics
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #226 on: April 11, 2015, 11:18:25 am »
I understand they were not football people (I don't think they are yet either! and I don't think they give a rat's *ss about it either)So of all the people they could have contacted they called a baseball guy who recommended Comolli? And with all the money and resources available they hired Roy Hodgson??? Now add to that all the money wasted on "talent" in 3 years and tell me who are the geniuses advising these guys so maybe we can recommend them to Van Gaal....somehow.  ;)
FSG didn't hire Hodgson mate.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #227 on: April 11, 2015, 11:21:26 am »
Absolutely disagree - the studies they have done suggest that THEY don't want a larger redevelopment as it involves their investment vehicle making a much longer term investment than they want to.

It is all doable, we won't even go into the circular debate about them raising huge investment from their greatest asset.

The myth of "it can't be done" is unchallenged because it gets repeated so often it becomes some sort of self fulfilling prophecy.

The atmosphere and issue about the culture of LFC is intrinsically linked to addressing the stadium size and accessibility to pinch part of a post from another site:

"What value should be placed on our cultural capital for the sake of success on the pitch or even worse, to increase the value of the asset?

This is our club, it's a pillar of our community, the most important example of civic pride that this city and its wider region has ever produced. It was built by our relatives and the people (managers, players etc) their contributions (gate money) were able to pay for."

The point is simple though they said when they came in they would run Liverpool within it's own means.. I.e. only spending money it generates, if you aren't happy with that then you want a sugar daddy, there isn't a question or debate on that point either - that's the simplicity of it. Our owners do not have vast amounts of money to spend building a stadium beyond 60000, what they are doing is a measured and slow approach to expansion - it's a safer option yes, but it also means our club isn't crippled with debt for 20 years trying to repay it.

Tell me Graham, how would you fund this super stadium you so desperately want?

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #228 on: April 11, 2015, 11:25:28 am »
Very few locals will criticise Retro's article - it's a reality.

No. No, that sort of thing is stupidly divisive. There's not 'them' and 'us' around some of this. There's no purple bin test to determine whether or not the idea of dropping a new Wembley of the North into L4 is a sensible idea or not.

If you're wanting a debate on how the club continues to ensure that it's in touch with the local community whilst continuing to bring in the money to do the players and wages thing, that piece is an awful one to be putting up as the start of the discussion because much of it has absolutely nothing to do with being local or not.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:27:19 am by Zeb »
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #229 on: April 11, 2015, 11:27:17 am »
FSG didn't hire Hodgson mate.

Don't be coming in here ruining peoples arguments with facts.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #230 on: April 11, 2015, 11:30:16 am »
The point is simple though they said when they came in they would run Liverpool within it's own means.. I.e. only spending money it generates, if you aren't happy with that then you want a sugar daddy, there isn't a question or debate on that point either - that's the simplicity of it. Our owners do not have vast amounts of money to spend building a stadium beyond 60000, they've actually invested around £60mil of their own money already.

You're contradicting yourself there and also not representing correctly what they "said" they would do.

Firstly, they will invest to get a return, the Main Stand and their initial purchase are examples of that - to suggest that investment means living beyond one's means isn't credible - they are different things and investment over a period of time can get them a return, they choose not to as it does not suit the FSG investment strategy.

Clearly the "adjustment" of recruitment strategy meaning we do not compete anymore at the top table of signings and the "adjustment" of our wage structure are all examples of what you rightly say is living within your means.

But you can't get away from the fact that all FSG have done is allow the atmosphere to stultify due to their investment strategy - and on top of this we are another five years on of lost local generations continuing to be invisible at Anfield. In the meantime we have a continuing huge untapped resource.

FSG's interests aren't totally, utterly and completely aligned completely with LFC's - can that be argued seriously? And if that is right then that is patently and obviously wrong for LFC.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #231 on: April 11, 2015, 11:33:24 am »
Tell me Graham, how would you fund this super stadium you so desperately want?

Investment over a longer period of time, not small time, short term as they are doing now - a combination of capital investment from them and equity dilution.

(But this isn't the thread for this debate)
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #232 on: April 11, 2015, 11:39:30 am »
So seeing the first bit of expansion in 17 years is not moving forward?



The stadium should be bigger as already been mentioned. It's still been slow progress though and we arnt going to outgun other clubs in the process
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #233 on: April 11, 2015, 11:54:20 am »
The stadium should be bigger as already been mentioned. It's still been slow progress though and we arnt going to outgun other clubs in the process

They've done more than anybody since this announcement back in 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/1992484.stm

I'm sure burdening the club with a massive debt and the likelihood of impacting our ability to compete in the transfer market will mean everybody will be happy. 
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #234 on: April 11, 2015, 12:10:47 pm »
They've done more than anybody since this announcement back in 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/1992484.stm

I'm sure burdening the club with a massive debt and the likelihood of impacting our ability to compete in the transfer market will mean everybody will be happy. 


Hang on. That's what they have just done with the Main Stand.

Debt will be there, needs to be paid off first so impacting on ability to plough those new revenues into the playing squad.

Why can't they be repaid over say 10 or 15 years freeing income for the squad once it opens?

Answer? FSG's interests aren't aligned with LFC's.
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #235 on: April 11, 2015, 12:14:54 pm »
Hang on. That's what they have just done with the Main Stand.

Debt will be there, needs to be paid off first so impacting on ability to plough those new revenues into the playing squad.

Why can't they be repaid over say 10 or 15 years freeing income for the squad once it opens?

Answer? FSG's interests aren't aligned with LFC's.

So what's your alternative to FSG?
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #236 on: April 11, 2015, 12:16:29 pm »
So what's your alternative to FSG?

Hang on, isn't the point I have just made correct?

FSG doing something you've just said wouldn't be popular?

FIVE years before we see the benefits of the income. Five years. They haven't been here that long yet.
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #237 on: April 11, 2015, 12:21:15 pm »
So what's your alternative to FSG?

I'm not suggesting an alternative - why would anyone? They've filled in the hole left by H&G (assisted by the price they got LFC for) and have increased the revenues (all be from a low baseline and also benefiting from the huge TV deals).

What I am saying is that we wake up and see the disconnect between FSG's interests and what we are all concerned about, LFC's interests.

They could soften their strategy benefitting LFC, and by implication supporters so much more without prejudicing their primary aim of making money.

Matter of balance.
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Offline Draex

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #238 on: April 11, 2015, 12:36:30 pm »
Hang on. That's what they have just done with the Main Stand.

Debt will be there, needs to be paid off first so impacting on ability to plough those new revenues into the playing squad.

Why can't they be repaid over say 10 or 15 years freeing income for the squad once it opens?

Answer? FSG's interests aren't aligned with LFC's.

Yet you want them to burden the club with far MORE debt, your business sense is lacking.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #239 on: April 11, 2015, 12:38:49 pm »
Yet you want them to burden the club with far MORE debt, your business sense is lacking.

And, the implication of the OP, do so to provide much more capacity for cheaper tickets to locals.
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