Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 828732 times)

Offline flinner

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #160 on: April 10, 2015, 04:28:24 pm »
Problem is we have to spend big and smart, more than the other four teams that sit in front of us as were playing catch up and have been for years, with FSG it won't be happening and rightly so. We have to spend with in our means, Likely thing is that we keep spending at the level were at now with the hope that Potential buys come good with the chance of making the top 4 and maybe a shot at the title every 5-6 years.
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #161 on: April 10, 2015, 04:57:33 pm »
As has been said earlier, the only real issue I would have with FSG is the naive way they seem to go about their business in the transfer market and our lack of signing proven top class players. Saying they are milking the club or not spending enough is just ridiculous. The problem is we have spent money badly in the transfer market and this needs addressing quickly.

This summer has to be about building a team and not bulking out an already engorged squad of players.

I think this summer is gonna be key for me. But then it is every summer.

We will see where our ambition really lies this summer i suspect if we dont get top 4
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Offline mikeinsheffield88

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #162 on: April 10, 2015, 05:12:21 pm »
This might be slightly off topic as it relates to the Boston Red Sox, but points to FSG when it comes to signing the biggest name players. This is just one example but the documentary is based around a key deal involving a team owned by John Henry and is worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ03VG9VgI0

In 2004, one of the very best talents in baseball Alex Rodriguez was made available by Texas Rangers (owned by a certain Tom Hicks). Rodriguez, considered as one of the best baseball players of all time, stated that he would leave Texas Rangers but was only interested in a move to either the Boston Red Sox or the New York Yankees. The Yankees were not originally interested in a deal due to the players they currently had on their team.

Rodriguez first met to negotiate a deal with the Red Sox. He ended up signing 'a less complicated deal' for the Yankees.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2015, 05:16:44 pm »
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/04/liverpool-little-more-than-a-balanced-investment-portfolio/

LITTLE MORE THAN A BALANCED INVESTMENT PORTFOLIO?
LIVERPOOL have played great teams many times, writes  PETER FURMEDGE. Quite a few times we have been behind illustrious opponents in terms of what we can put on the pitch. Sometimes quite a distance behind.
What always prevailed, something that brought grudging admiration and resentment our way in equal measure, was that arrogant Scouse-infused “fuck them, we’re Liverpool” attitude. It carried us through some unlikely triumphs. The 2001 UEFA Cup run saw Liverpool emerge from Europe’s shadows to beat Porto, Roma and Barcelona. Nobody needs reminding about 2005 and what happened when football’s hand of fate put Juventus, Chelsea and AC Milan in our way.
It also left us looking a bit daft at times as well, but that didn’t matter, a few pints later and we’d be ready to take on all comers again. Bill Shankly famously responded to a 5-1 first leg drubbing at the hands of Ajax by saying Liverpool would turn the deficit over in the second leg. 54,000 believed him. Clearly second best to the emerging Dutch masters, but clearly having none of it.
Wednesday 22nd October 2014 was the first time I’ve gone to a Liverpool match where the prevailing mood was one of awe. Yes we’ve applauded great players. Goalkeepers have always been given a good reception by The Kop. Decades ago, when Liverpool’s crowd struck as much fear into visiting fans as the players did to their teams, we used to always applaud opposition goals as well. But they were interludes in an unswerving conviction that, no matter how good the XI lined up against the Reds were supposed to be, “we are Liverpool and we’re going toe to toe with you”. Players and supporters alike. Partisan, passionate, aggressive. Sometimes deluded, never defeated before a ball was kicked in anger.
Against Real Madrid at Anfield, very large sections of the crowd lacked any sort of Liverpudlian arrogance or bottle. In fact, many were just as happy to be there because Madrid were in town as they were to support Liverpool.
This was also apparent with the team. I’m not advocating kicking the opposition off the park, but we barely put anything on any of their players. Would a Jamie Carragher, Phil Thompson, younger Steven Gerrard, Jimmy Case, Sammy Lee, Tommy Smith, Gerry Byrne or young Jon Flanagan have gone through 90 minutes without at least letting the superstars in white know they were in a game? Our team was standing off, not good enough to play Real Madrid and too in awe to battle with them instead. There’s playing it clean and then there’s being overawed.
Soccer - Football League Division One - Liverpool v Leeds United
Six fouls and no bookings in 90 minutes says the footballing demigods from Spain would have faced a sterner foe in the selfie-stick mob by the players’ entrance than they encountered on the Anfield turf that night.
The trip to Madrid for the return leg cemented an image of Liverpool as a club happy enough to play second fiddle. Never mind the team selection, Brendan Rodgers can pick who the hell he likes. Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier did it often enough to make me immune to unexpected line-ups. However, gone was the ultra-professional “get in, get the job done, get out” approach of years gone by. This was “little Liverpool on tour” — an entire club on a mid-season break. Everyone bar the then ostracised Mamadou Sakho on the plane to Madrid. Nobody on the club’s charter plane home. Instead, that extra 24 hours to “prepare” for the Chelsea game was spent in the Spanish capital and a narrow 1-0 defeat treated almost like a victory.
“Plucky Liverpool”, a club one step away from a losers’ lap of honour to a chorus of “we’ll support you ever more”. Not a hint of the steely-eyed determination to bridge the gap that typified the Reds of yore, just relief that a drubbing had been avoided.
How did it come to this? A global giant. Five times Champions of Europe. Now established as a feeder club to Barcelona and Real Madrid. A team that might as well have stood with autograph books welcoming Real Madrid onto the Anfield pitch. A crowd turning up and behaving like we’re Fourth Division underdogs playing, erm, Liverpool; the proper Liverpool that fears no foe.
Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top.
A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically. Sitting closer in terms of capacity to Newcastle than to Manchester United and completely giving up the ghost where the likes of old foes like Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund are concerned. Never mind Barcelona and Real Madrid, they’re over the hill and far away now. Built in obsolescence, an investment risk mitigated by the development’s minimal payback time being guaranteed by a decades long season ticket waiting list, premium prices that are yet to be set and the naming rights cherry on the cake. A big tick on the FSG investment appraisal, no matter that generations are priced out and already in the process of being alienated for good.

A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can be resold at a profit. Quarter of a billion pounds spent (some may say wasted) on “investments” in three years, largely evaluated on the basis of age and resale potential instead of ability to improve the first team. A balanced risk investment portfolio where a football team should be. Spreading risk across a transfer window and ending up with nine players of potential (maybe questionable) quality instead of concentrating the risk and ending up with three of proven status. A club that players now leave with their most successful trophy winning years ahead of them, yet it’s never the club’s fault.
A self-imposed salary cap that’s leading to a Gordon Lee style “no stars” policy in spite of the club still shelling out a gargantuan payroll bill. Blaming the lure of London instead of fighting it — how the hell did we bring John Barnes north and then keep him here? What are the likes of Sagna, Nasri, Clichy, Mata and Van Persie doing in Manchester if the mythical lure of London always wins out?
A support that’s been rinsed and cleansed and sieved out until all but the last bastions of the old ways and attitudes cling on, defiant in a vain hope that one day things will return to some semblance of “normality”. A new crowd, welcomed off chartered planes by Mighty fucking Red, filling hotels, clogging up motorways from all points north, south, east and west. Spectators and customers, taking selfies to a backdrop of opposition set pieces, providing an audience that’s more excited by the presence of opposition superstars than it is determined to help the men in Red put these upstarts from the continent back in their place.
The tipping point has been passed. First Liverpool ended up with the only penniless “billionaires” in America, now it seems we have the only Small Time Charlies from a land of Big Time Charlies. The new crowd accepts our place in the order of things, happily filming Ronaldo’s gloating goal celebrations and celebrating the avoidance of humiliation in Madrid like some sort of triumph in adversity. A tame and timid Anfield crowd, about as imbued with the Liverpool-Manchester rivalry as people who’ve rarely (if ever) set foot in either city can be, flat as a pancake for the traditionally the most partisan of all English football fixtures.
Quarter of a century without a league title, players leaving year on year for bigger and better things, how long before Rodgers becomes the first Liverpool manager to leave for bigger and better? Gone is the defiance. Gone is the arrogance. Gone is the vision of building Liverpool up and up until we conquer the bloody world.
Welcome to the sweetspot brothers and sisters in the #LFCfamily.

The very best article I have read since our new Americans took over, it is so true, so very very true, I have been a Liverpool supporter all my life, my dad took me to my first game at Anfield in 1950, I cried and cried when we were relegated 1954 I suffered the whole 8 years in the second division, then Bill Shankly came in 1959 he got us out and more importantly he made us the Liverpool we became. Opposition were terrified of the noise when they came out onto the pitch, our Kopites were to be proud of and The Chelsea game is still there as one of the all time great nights at Anfield.
I hope the author of this article wont mind if I copy it, I would like to print it off, frame it and put on the wall just above my desk, just to remind me of the good times.
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Offline houkura

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #164 on: April 10, 2015, 05:43:37 pm »
I think after half a decade in charge, the fans have every right to ask questions about FSG.

The opinion of some people appears to be that simply turing a profit is the sign of a well run club and all that money will be pumped back into the club. If that is the case, then Newcastle are the best run club in the world and our owners should follow the Mike Ashley model, I have no doubt they're already taking tips from him.

It's about getting the balance right between making money for themselves and doing what is best for the football club. At the moment we're about 95% business, 5% football.

The owners don't make any money for themselves from the club. All the money the club makes goes back into the club. We made a whopping £1 million profit last season. I don't get where people get this idea that FSG are some sort of profit hungry owners. If and only if Liverpool Football Club are successful on the pitch will FSG make a profit when they sell the club. In the meantime they take nothing and give no dividends to co-investors. I think they are astute enough to know that success on the pitch is the only way to make the value of the club go up.
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Offline houkura

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #165 on: April 10, 2015, 05:58:24 pm »
I think you could read this same article on the forum of any team in England bar Chelsea at the moment. Look at Blue Moon and you'll see the same and imagine the money they've spent. We're a feeder club as much as Manchester United are. Their best player went to one of the two best teams in Spain just like ours did.

Basically we're sitting in 5th and we have the 5th most money of clubs in England. Coincidence? No.

Now that being said-had Sturridge been fit all season we would probably have 8 or 10 more points than we do now and no one would be having these discussions.
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Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #166 on: April 10, 2015, 06:24:28 pm »
Basically we're sitting in 5th and we have the 5th most money of clubs in England. Coincidence? No.
By this logic, QPR should be in the top half
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Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #167 on: April 10, 2015, 06:26:23 pm »
I honestly don't know what LFC fans would have FSG do that they're not doing.
Last transfer window we had a 30-40 million net spend (depending on which figures you use) - pushing FFP to the limit, while investing in the stadium 
Hiring the right people with enough knowledge not to insanely overpay for mediocre talent (or players that won't fit a pre-determined system that even a one eyed 100yr. old with an IQ of 50 could see) would be a good start. In fact it would be a great start. At least we'd be profitable while perennially fighting for 4th and 5th place.

The lack of true leadership at the very top continues at the club. It's disheartening.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #168 on: April 10, 2015, 06:34:38 pm »
I think they are astute enough to know that success on the pitch is the only way to make the value of the club go up.
Ironic that they're so astute that they kept the cockroach and hired Comolli to be successful "on the pitch". Astute commercially, yes. Astute as they claim to be securing on the field talent....really?

With their baseball team, success has come while being the highest or next to highest spenders over the last 10 years(varies by year). Highest or second to highest ticket prices in that league as well.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #169 on: April 10, 2015, 06:34:38 pm »
Now that being said-had Sturridge been fit all season we would probably have 8 or 10 more points than we do now and no one would be having these discussions.

Your right we didn't have these discussions last summer when he was injured and suarez was suspended, nor did we have this discussion in january, or the summer before that, or the january before that, or the summer before the january, or the season we sold torres to a rival, or when we hired kenny, and camoli, then sacked kenny and camoli, and didn't employ a ceo, a face of accountability, or when they wanted a coach and a director of football, and then had a manager with a transfer committee.   And we aren't really bothered about the additional five year wait for a spade in the ground.  Nor have we had discussions about ticket prices and the way things are being run in general.

We are just having a sulk cos we lost the title and one of better players has been injured from the 3rd match til mid april.  That must be it.   Everythings fine, go back to bed america, here look at the new kit, everything is fine.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #170 on: April 10, 2015, 06:36:06 pm »
We have a lot of fans that will retweet or post any old shite without checking it first.
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Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
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Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #171 on: April 10, 2015, 07:44:12 pm »
What we're seeing is the all-American, FSG way of growing the club. It may take a while in the era of instant success to win a league or bigger, but in comparison to the days of H&G and even David Moores they have done some serious work on increasing the income from streams other than simply match day revenue. An earlier poster mentioned the Mancs: they created the blueprint for the modern corporate football club, and is it any coincidence that they can still afford to pay people like Radamel Falcao over 250k per week when they haven't got a penny coming in from Champions League revenue, or pay £57M for Angel Di Maria and still remain within the FFP guidelines?

It's the shirts on the backs of kids in China and the United States, the tour games to sell-out crowds, the relentless merchandising, the corporate prawn sandwiches that enable us to be able to even remotely afford to blow £100M in a single transfer window. If we were reliant on how it used to be in 'the good old days' then we'd be in League 2. Go to the United States, go to any major sporting event such as NBA, NFL or MLB and prepare for a shock at the tiered prices for court-side tickets. On a recent visit to an Orlando Magic NBA game we got seats up in gods for 20 bucks each. Court-side they were over $500, and that was in the lowest category game. Against the Heat or the Cavaliers it is approaching $1000 for anything close to the front row. Season tickets on court-side are $36,000, and the Magic are not even that big an NBA team. Now anyone who thinks that FSG are going to adopt anything other than a similar approach at Anfield are kidding themselves. They are securing the future of the club but it is a very different future to the past that we've enjoyed. It might take time but I'd rather we grew organically than boom and bust like the previous owners - we could have ended up in oblivion with that approach.

But in my opinion we shouldn't be focusing our attention to what is going on behind the scenes. It's the silence in the stands that is of most concern, and the malaise on the pitch that drew the claims of our players being awestruck against Madrid in the original article. The silence in the stands is fixable: let the corporate mob and the tourists can have the main stand and the centenary to themselves, but give the Kop and the soon-to-be redeveloped Anny Road to the fans, the locals who want to sing and make a fucking noise. For current examples look at the Sudtribune or the Hawks Nest at the Seahawks NFL team. Make the tickets half the price of the other stands and sell them at the ticket office to L postcodes only. Hell, make all the adult and child tickets Kop-only. Get the next generation of fans in among a swaying, singing mass of humanity, and get them in cheaper than the tourists and the selfie takers - they can go to the club shop, high five fucking Mighty Red and sit there with their phones out on the free wifi. Only by getting the noise back will the opposition come to Anfield with anything approaching fear. We need to make the players know that the fans are there to create hell rather than stand and take fucking pictures. They are there to make them play rather than just watch them play. They are there to let them know that if they aren't giving their all for the shirt they'll fucking know about it. It might not be perfect, but if at least some rejigging of who goes where in the stands takes place we might be able to remind some of these big time charlies on the pitch that we ARE Liverpool.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #172 on: April 10, 2015, 08:21:35 pm »
Not sure I'm in full agreement with the original post, there are a lot of Arsenal fans who bemoan their strategy of being careful with money but Arsenal now find themselves in the big money clubs without the benefit of a massive external injection of cash, unlike Chelsea and City, United are a special case in that Ferguson, whatever you think of him, was able to get very ordinary players to play in a team well above their market value and bring players through, he was unique in that respect (Cleverley, Fletcher, O'Shea, Richardson, Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Nevilles, Butt-probably cost next to nothing in total). They are now playing catch up and it is costing them big style.

If we splash then we could find ourselves in the wilderness oif we don't succeed (or buy well), it provides no guarantee of success unless you are buying the dead certs (ie Messi, Ronaldo) which we aren't. United could have spent £110m on Falcao and Di Maria this year and we'd have been jealous at first, but it would have been a waste of money, they appear to be getting off lightly with Falcao as loan and PSG wanting Di Maria at cost price.

Yes we are in the gambling market but our gambles have not been that bad in fairness, with some obvious exceptions. For c£50m we have purchased Suarez, Coutinho, Sturridge and Can, I'd rather have any one of them than Di Maria. I don't think it is the policy that is necessarily wrong but possibly the judgement of those who are making some of the decisions.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 11:39:41 pm by Black Bull Nova »
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #173 on: April 10, 2015, 08:31:36 pm »
But in my opinion we shouldn't be focusing our attention to what is going on behind the scenes. It's the silence in the stands that is of most concern, and the malaise on the pitch that drew the claims of our players being awestruck against Madrid in the original article. The silence in the stands is fixable: let the corporate mob and the tourists can have the main stand and the centenary to themselves, but give the Kop and the soon-to-be redeveloped Anny Road to the fans, the locals who want to sing and make a fucking noise. For current examples look at the Sudtribune or the Hawks Nest at the Seahawks NFL team. Make the tickets half the price of the other stands and sell them at the ticket office to L postcodes only. Hell, make all the adult and child tickets Kop-only. Get the next generation of fans in among a swaying, singing mass of humanity, and get them in cheaper than the tourists and the selfie takers - they can go to the club shop, high five fucking Mighty Red and sit there with their phones out on the free wifi. Only by getting the noise back will the opposition come to Anfield with anything approaching fear. We need to make the players know that the fans are there to create hell rather than stand and take fucking pictures. They are there to make them play rather than just watch them play. They are there to let them know that if they aren't giving their all for the shirt they'll fucking know about it. It might not be perfect, but if at least some rejigging of who goes where in the stands takes place we might be able to remind some of these big time charlies on the pitch that we ARE Liverpool.

Absolutely agree with this, apart from the money, what differentiates Liverpool from any other clubs,if not the fans and the atmosphere, then what. This single thing, especially excluding those locals with less cash, is the biggest challenge we face.
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Offline mjjason

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #174 on: April 10, 2015, 10:04:38 pm »
This is an article written after two losses.  Three weeks ago this article would not have been written.  Point about wanting a bigger stadium are pointless and pipe dreams.  The faults we have now do not fall squarely on FSG.  Rodgers, the Transfer Committee, and the players are to blame.

Offline LiverBirdKop

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #175 on: April 10, 2015, 11:01:40 pm »
This is an article written after two losses.  Three weeks ago this article would not have been written.  Point about wanting a bigger stadium are pointless and pipe dreams.  The faults we have now do not fall squarely on FSG. Rodgers, the Transfer Committee, and the players are to blame.
Who put the "Transfer Committee" in place? Three weeks ago we hadn't looked like a Championship team, so what's your point?

Offline Jay_Mc

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #176 on: April 11, 2015, 12:29:12 am »
In short, with this article, we've a prominent Spirit Of Shankly figure saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that we should forget about building the club within our financial means, operate in the transfer market without any kind of eye on asset or resale value, and build a stadium with a capacity about 20,000 beyond what there's any reasonable demand for, with all concomitant cost. This 11 months after we came within inches of winning the league, when Man City put in a miraculous run of form to pip us at the post, slips and Crystal Palace demises or not. I can remember Neil Atkinson on TAW saying, "I'd love to see this side pitted against the likes of Bayern Munich". 11 months ago that.

I doubt anyone can argue about the issues of ticket prices or the creeping wankification of the game at every turn, not least the ground itself, but if one club suffers less than any other it's Liverpool. But beyond that, it reads a bit like a Spirit Of Shankly volte face to wishing for a sugar daddy with a magic wand.

Peter is big enough to debate the point's of his article. However, I'm curious where the Spirit Of Shankly mention is in the article? Or when Spirit Of Shankly have made any such comment about the owners?

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Offline decky

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #177 on: April 11, 2015, 12:43:09 am »
again net spend bullshit which is only part of the picture. No figures for wages anywhere in sight. Take a look

Premier League Clubs Wage Bill For 2015 Season http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

NO#   CLUB                    2012-13    2013-14    2014-15
1   Manchester United   £181m   £187m   £215m
2   Manchester City   £233m   £216m   £205m
3   Chelsea                   £176m   £190m   £179m
4   Arsenal                   £154m   £166.4m   £180m
5   Liverpool                    £132m   £140m   £144m
6   Tottenham            £96m   £112m   £120m
12   QPR                            £78m                   £68m
9   Everton                    £63m   £66m   £67m

Offline robbohuyton

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #178 on: April 11, 2015, 12:46:16 am »
Would this article have been written if we won our last two league games?

Yes, Peter originally wrote an earlier version of the article for TAW magazine some time back.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #179 on: April 11, 2015, 12:47:55 am »
again net spend bullshit which is only part of the picture. No figures for wages anywhere in sight. Take a look

Premier League Clubs Wage Bill For 2015 Season http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

NO#   CLUB                    2012-13    2013-14    2014-15
1   Manchester United   £181m   £187m   £215m
2   Manchester City   £233m   £216m   £205m
3   Chelsea                   £176m   £190m   £179m
4   Arsenal                   £154m   £166.4m   £180m
5   Liverpool                    £132m   £140m   £144m
6   Tottenham            £96m   £112m   £120m
12   QPR                            £78m                   £68m
9   Everton                    £63m   £66m   £67m
True. But they are not that different, are they? In my view, it's not about Arsenal or us wrestling for that coveted 4th spot. it's how close we are to the top.

BTW, what happens when you add the net spend and the wages?
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2015, 12:48:19 am »
Those are guesses for 14/15 in the most part given the majority of clubs won't publish the accounts for that period until next March time.

Offline robbohuyton

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2015, 12:49:06 am »
This is an article written after two losses.  Three weeks ago this article would not have been written.  Point about wanting a bigger stadium are pointless and pipe dreams.  The faults we have now do not fall squarely on FSG.  Rodgers, the Transfer Committee, and the players are to blame.

Incorrect. It was written a while back for TAW magazine. We've stopped doing TAW magazine. Peter updated the article and we used it for the website. The timing has got nothing to do with the two losses.

Offline Retro Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2015, 01:16:43 am »
Any of the big hitters fancy debating this on Anfield FM with the author?

The Flagpole Corner show is always open to such things.

CraigDS, AlanX, Roy Hendo?

Maybe some of the internet warriors in the thread who ignored the points in the piece to make personal attacks would like to reveal themselves, or those who jumped to wild assumptions about it only being written after two defeats, when the bulk of it has been on "the rattle" in various forms for months, would put their views up to a bit of scrutiny.

Bear in mind, I'm the dickhead who's spent hours discussing all the issues of ticketing, pricing, capacity, supporter involvement, culture and identity with everyone from Henry and Werner when they first took over, to Ian Ayre and Phil Dutton in Chapel St, to Scudamore and his people at the Premier League. I've also been involved with and interested in the regeneration process since before rawk went live and have discussed it with the politicians, the club and the housing associations for absolutely years.

There was a time when I'd have reported back from meetings on here. But it is an absolute uphill struggle to get anything through the FSG Praetorian Guard and I have a day job to do.

There is another way. It could involve FSG if they had the vision and will. They certainly don't have the latter, I have doubts about what the former actually is.



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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2015, 01:18:58 am »
Hideous, unintelligent article written by a whining supporter.
Lack of vision. That’s what it is. And it comes from the very top.
A stadium development that will leave us permanently in the second tier of European clubs and struggling to keep up domestically. Sitting closer in terms of capacity to Newcastle than to Manchester United and completely giving up the ghost where the likes of old foes like Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund are concerned. Never mind Barcelona and Real Madrid, they’re over the hill and far away now. Built in obsolescence, an investment risk mitigated by the development’s minimal payback time being guaranteed by a decades long season ticket waiting list, premium prices that are yet to be set and the naming rights cherry on the cake. A big tick on the FSG investment appraisal, no matter that generations are priced out and already in the process of being alienated for good.
And where was the 75,000 seater going to be located, Stanley Park or? And where was the infrastructure money and planning from the city to get those 75,000 people to the ground every matchday? When and how were the residents expected to approve all this, considering how much they (rightly, because it's where they live) fought a far less complex, renovated Anfield? And how was the club -- just a few ticks away from administration thanks to H&G -- going to pay for it all? And does the writer really think a spade would be in the ground in 2015 for all of this? He's smoking crack and living in la la land.
Quote
A transfer policy that’s all about unearthing talent that can be resold at a profit.
[snip]
The tipping point has been passed. First Liverpool ended up with the only penniless “billionaires” in America, now it seems we have the only Small Time Charlies from a land of Big Time Charlies.
Zero understanding of how FFP works. He whines about a bunch of clubs who have far higher earnings than us and/or have oil barons owning them.

Welcome to reality. Either support the decent ownership group you have, or simply confess that you'll only ever be truly happy as the sugar daddy groupie of a Chelsea, a City, or a PSG.

And to remind everyone again...
1) There's a spade in the ground. Stop bitching.
2) They hired an excellent manager who has the potential to be truly great.
3) The "FSG don't want to win" whine is bullshit. There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. Your owners are the ONLY club of those 30 to have won the MLB title 3 times in the last 11 years. They have been #2-4 in payroll EVERY year since 2004.
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Offline Peabee

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2015, 01:20:33 am »
Of course not, but that's hardly surprising, imagine the articles if we'd lost to Blackburn :D

I'm sure they were already written, and they'll surface if we lose to Newcastle...
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Offline Retro Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2015, 01:22:09 am »
Hideous, unintelligent article written by a whining supporter.And where was the 75,000 seater going to be located, Stanley Park or? And where was the infrastructure money and planning from the city to get those 75,000 people to the ground every matchday? When and how were the residents expected to approve all this, considering how much they (rightly, because it's where they live) fought a far less complex, renovated Anfield? And how was the club -- just a few ticks away from administration thanks to H&G -- going to pay for it all? And does the writer really think a spade would be in the ground in 2015 for all of this? He's smoking crack and living in la la land.  Zero understanding of how FFP works. He whines about a bunch of clubs who have far higher earnings than us and/or have oil barons owning them.

Welcome to reality. Either support the decent ownership group you have, or simply confess that you'll only ever be truly happy as the sugar daddy groupie of a Chelsea, a City, or a PSG.

And to remind everyone again...
1) There's a spade in the ground. Stop bitching.
2) They hired an excellent manager who has the potential to be truly great.
3) The "FSG don't want to win" whine is bullshit. There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. Your owners are the ONLY club of those 30 to have won the MLB title 3 times in the last 11 years. They have been #2-4 in payroll EVERY year since 2004.

How many different ways are there to run a football club and what knowledge do you have of any of them, erm, Soxfan?

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #186 on: April 11, 2015, 01:22:10 am »
jesus wept.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #187 on: April 11, 2015, 01:40:32 am »
How many different ways are there to run a football club and what knowledge do you have of any of them, erm, Soxfan?

what does that even mean?

Offline Retro Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #188 on: April 11, 2015, 01:45:48 am »
what does that even mean?

Is my English that bad?

Go on have a go, you must have an idea what I'm trying to get at.

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #189 on: April 11, 2015, 01:53:19 am »
In short, with this article, we've a prominent Spirit Of Shankly figure saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that we should forget about building the club within our financial means, operate in the transfer market without any kind of eye on asset or resale value, and build a stadium with a capacity about 20,000 beyond what there's any reasonable demand for, with all concomitant cost. This 11 months after we came within inches of winning the league, when Man City put in a miraculous run of form to pip us at the post, slips and Crystal Palace demises or not. I can remember Neil Atkinson on TAW saying, "I'd love to see this side pitted against the likes of Bayern Munich". 11 months ago that.

I doubt anyone can argue about the issues of ticket prices or the creeping wankification of the game at every turn, not least the ground itself, but if one club suffers less than any other it's Liverpool. But beyond that, it reads a bit like a Spirit Of Shankly volte face to wishing for a sugar daddy with a magic wand.

You've let yourself down badly there. Very badly.

Peter posts on TAW in his personal capacity despite having lots of people who support his views about the fact that FSG and LFC are two very different entities with two very different aims.

Owners with a long term strategy would be looking to cash in for their benefit and for LFC's benefit on the massive fanbase and opportunity - a long term strategy would see that feasible and achievable, it would also meet the issues Peter makes about the gentrification of the ground.

To suggest he is asking for a sugar daddy is naive at best, he's asking for these owners to get on board for the long term and sort the ground out properly and as a byproduct get the best for themselves. The ground solution sees it being paid off as a first draw on income and the advantage for non-corporate supporters being minimal in the scheme of things, FSG first, LFC second. The Anny Road? Fingers crossed.

And by the way, there's 20,000 on a waiting list and countless other thousands as members who would all love access to the ground - that's before you see Anfield at 3.15pm on a match day - outside - there are hundreds of people hanging around, desperate to grab a bit of the atmosphere and wanting to be inside - so don't trot out rubbish about no demand.

What we do have, by their own admission, is a development that maximises the return per seat - the sweet spot.

What supporters don't realise is that LFC is an asset in a hedge fund portfolio, the more we are worth, the more they can leverage within that hedge fund to raise funds for other ambitions - that's why we all think they're brilliant not taking money out - we are collateral for other deals. Proof? Le Bron James. 

I'm the new Merseyside rep on the Supporters' Commmitee put their primarily by the support of Union members, so let me set my stall out here and now - this Club was built on local support creating a culture from the local community - all the things Peter talks about implicitly.

I want a bias back to local supporters - not excluding non-locals but getting the balance where it should be, and part of that needs to see a ground solution that accommodates the competing interests but primarily allows locals access at a fair price.

Your suggestion that the Union want a sugar daddy is silly and you're generally better than that - and by the way we came 2nd under Hicks and Gillete, trotting out stats like yours above doesn't give the right picture in isolation, were you arguing for H&G because they came 2nd? No.

The more we ask the owners why they have limited ambitions, the more we will be able to connect to where we end up in the League. They're the best financial owners we have had for forty years (but it's a low baseline) but dont think for a second LFC represents anything other than an asset and not the first thing they think of each morning when they get up.

Count me in if you fancy a debate on this with any other posters on here who constantly push the FSG (rather than LFC)  line.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #190 on: April 11, 2015, 01:55:58 am »
Any of the big hitters fancy debating this on Anfield FM with the author?

The Flagpole Corner show is always open to such things.

CraigDS, AlanX, Roy Hendo?

Maybe some of the internet warriors in the thread who ignored the points in the piece to make personal attacks would like to reveal themselves, or those who jumped to wild assumptions about it only being written after two defeats, when the bulk of it has been on "the rattle" in various forms for months, would put their views up to a bit of scrutiny.

Bear in mind, I'm the dickhead who's spent hours discussing all the issues of ticketing, pricing, capacity, supporter involvement, culture and identity with everyone from Henry and Werner when they first took over, to Ian Ayre and Phil Dutton in Chapel St, to Scudamore and his people at the Premier League. I've also been involved with and interested in the regeneration process since before rawk went live and have discussed it with the politicians, the club and the housing associations for absolutely years.

There was a time when I'd have reported back from meetings on here. But it is an absolute uphill struggle to get anything through the FSG Praetorian Guard and I have a day job to do.

There is another way. It could involve FSG if they had the vision and will. They certainly don't have the latter, I have doubts about what the former actually is.


I don't get it.

You'd think guys as smart and rich as Mr Henry would find easier, less risky ways to make money than buying young talent and trying to flip them for a profit, in a market where its proven less than 40% of transfers even work, and is full of so many unknowns.

We're buying young because the only way to get a Suarez is to find him 1-2 years before he turns into a Suarez.

As for the stadium, I just don't get the complaints there at all.

As for the support, I can sympathize with the writer there to some degree.

I can sympathize with the general discontent and frustration of our poor start and how we went out of the CL with our talis between our legs and whimpering.

But to suggest FSG is some boogeyman ruining the club for profit, somehow tricking us all into thinking 6th place is the best thing and where we belong and making our players shit out of tackles in big games... well that's just silly and also offensive to Reds the world wide.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #191 on: April 11, 2015, 02:02:08 am »
<snip>

Posted just as this was put up.

Now this is a much clearer statement. I didn't get THIS from that post on TAW at all, though.

Mr Smith certainly some thing to think about, and I'm sure not being a local myself I'm not in a fair position to have much to say about much of what's happening on the ground there. Though I do like the idea of a locals-first mindset being prioritized (so long as I can get a seat when I travel across the Atlantic with the boy for a match... please).

I still fail to see the evil in FSG that is implicit in all these posts and articles, though.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #192 on: April 11, 2015, 02:06:11 am »

I don't get it.

You'd think guys as smart and rich as Mr Henry would find easier, less risky ways to make money than buying young talent and trying to flip them for a profit, in a market where its proven less than 40% of transfers even work, and is full of so many unknowns.

We're buying young because the only way to get a Suarez is to find him 1-2 years before he turns into a Suarez.

As for the stadium, I just don't get the complaints there at all.

As for the support, I can sympathize with the writer there to some degree.

I can sympathize with the general discontent and frustration of our poor start and how we went out of the CL with our talis between our legs and whimpering.

But to suggest FSG is some boogeyman ruining the club for profit, somehow tricking us all into thinking 6th place is the best thing and where we belong and making our players shit out of tackles in big games... well that's just silly and also offensive to Reds the world wide.

Don't you get it?

LFC is part of a financial group.

Their ownership strategy sees us grow in value (no real benefit to LFC) making their financial group worth more and able to leverage more investment for other things.

In the meantime the value of LFC grows so when they are ready they cash in (and who knows when this will be?) and make a profit having bought LFC for a song.

Don't think FSG's and LFC's interests are identical.
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #193 on: April 11, 2015, 02:06:17 am »
Perhaps the thread title should have "good" removed... ::)

Offline Retro Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #194 on: April 11, 2015, 02:15:23 am »
Perhaps the thread title should have "good" removed... ::)

It's been out there a couple of days, after being knocked around on "the rattle" for months, and not one matchgoing supporter of the many on the rattle and loads that I meet out and about Liverpool has give me anything resembling bad vibes.

Wonder who's out of sync, the matchgoing locals or the internet gazillions? Are there raw nerves being touched in our increasingly polarised "family"?

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #195 on: April 11, 2015, 02:22:27 am »
LFC is locally based, with a local culture. It is steeped and immersed in all of that.

Everyone welcome, but you have to buy into the culture and where it comes from and the fact that its soul is local.

That means that the local supporters ( and particularly the local youth) and community have to be cherished and given consideration and the best chance.

And if that is at the expense of people from father afield then that is how it has to be.

Very few locals will criticise Retro's article - it's a reality.
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Offline Retro Red

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #196 on: April 11, 2015, 02:26:27 am »
I'm outa here Graham. We're gonna get twatted when the Praetorian Guard clock on again.

See you on the other side.


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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #197 on: April 11, 2015, 02:32:22 am »
It's been out there a couple of days, after being knocked around on "the rattle" for months, and not one matchgoing supporter of the many on the rattle and loads that I meet out and about Liverpool has give me anything resembling bad vibes.

Wonder who's out of sync, the matchgoing locals or the internet gazillions? Are there raw nerves being touched in our increasingly polarised "family"?
I wasn't having a go at the article, more implying that the vast majority of posters here don't agree with it.

Fwiw I tend to agree with the posters here though, even if I can see where the article is coming from in some regards. I'm one of those keyboard-crunching foreigners though, so my opinion probably isn't worth so much  :wave

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #198 on: April 11, 2015, 02:32:26 am »
Honest question. What's the alternate to FSG or what they are doing?
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Re: Good article from TAW on FSG
« Reply #199 on: April 11, 2015, 02:51:01 am »
LFC is locally based, with a local culture. It is steeped and immersed in all of that.

Everyone welcome, but you have to buy into the culture and where it comes from and the fact that its soul is local.

That means that the local supporters ( and particularly the local youth) and community have to be cherished and given consideration and the best chance.

And if that is at the expense of people from father afield then that is how it has to be.

Very few locals will criticise Retro's article - it's a reality.

Salient points, of course. But it seems to me that there are a number of points that separately make for good discussion, whereas together they can become polarising themselves.

For example - didn't everyone kind of know that Liverpool was just part of an investment portfolio when they took over, but the hope was that they would put money into the team in order to raise the value of the club overall with an eye for a future sale? And wasn't the worry that they might start asset-stripping, but just be a lot more clever about it, in order to have low expense but maximum value? I know that's the impression I got when they first arrived. Was the initial hope that they would invite Supporter Group ownership, which then didn't come to fruition even as a topic of conversation, something that has caused certain quarters to be more specific and targeted in their criticisms of FSG?

Given those questions, would that not be better as a separate point to whether the club should be more sensitive to the needs of locals over global supporters? Just because that seems a separate argument, but an emotional reaction to the first topic can carry over to the second, and the second has far more potential to be divisive to a fanbase than what the endgame is for the ownership.

I think we can all agree that at some point, FSG are going to want to sell at a profit. The key question is whether they will spend money to "upscale" the team to make it attractive to potential buyers, or whether they will "downscale" costs to make the bottom line look better. For me, the evidence is murky at best to make a solid conclusion either way. They certainly have no problem RE-investing the money that gets brought in, so their nowhere near the level of Hicks and Gillette, but at the same time, there might be a case to be made that they aren't willing to make EXTRA funds available for key players that might seriously elevate the team. I think that's a conversation worth having. But ultimately, shouldn't that topic be kept separate from the topic of whether they should target locals over globals, or vice versa?
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