Author Topic: The Serial Podcasts - 3rd series out now (April 2017)  (Read 29193 times)

Offline litliper

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2014, 11:32:29 am »
The last episode is up.
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Offline markedasred

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2014, 12:50:18 pm »
So the Butler did it, whooda thunk. Goddam, should I have added a spoiler alert there?
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2014, 04:24:27 pm »
It's pretty obvious that the killer is part of the shadowy criminal masterminds also known as Mail Kimp.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab2d45a77/the-last-episode-of-serial
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Offline kennedy81

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2014, 06:17:47 pm »
I listened to the first 5 eps today while I was doing some work. It really needs full attention though as the facts and details of the case just whizz by.
It's very well put together, but I get a sense I'm being led by the nose a bit by Koening, and possibly being set up for a bit of a twist.
That Jay dude sounds quite dodgy, but he doesn't seem like the sort of criminal mastermind who could orchestrate a complex set-up, without catching himself out. Though there are some inconsistencies I suppose.

The honour killing angle was very much played down early on by Koening using contributions from Adnan's family, yet his parents still end up at his prom to drag his ass home. His attorney must have been absolutely hopeless for not dampening that aspect of a possible motive, or there's more going on there.
Not sure what to think really. Hope to hear more of Jay's girlfriend too, as she seems like an important link between him and Adnan.

Offline McrRed

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2014, 06:18:52 pm »
Just downloaded the lot.

Offline electricghost

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2014, 06:24:44 pm »
Brilliant podcast series, totally engrossing. I will be listening to them all again, and delighted to hear her reference a new season for sometime in 2015.
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Offline Vork+The Knights of Good

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2014, 11:49:57 pm »
Absolutely fascinating. I caught onto it a bit late, but I've listened to one episode a night for the past couple weeks and it just happened to work out that I caught up Wednesday night prior to yesterday's release. Listened to the finale last night. My sure to be rambling thoughts:


Spoiler
I'm sure many will be disappointed with the ending to the season, that we didn't get a nice, neat bow on everything, but I can't say I was expecting anything different. The bitch of non-fiction is that you can't simply invent a captivating, satisfying ending (hell, many shows of fiction fall flat on their face trying to do this even with that creative freedom). The serial killer aspect was interesting and fits nicely in terms of the timeline, but as Koenig pointed out, it doesn't account for Jay knowing the location of Hae's car and it really doesn't account for Jay's testimony pointing the finger at Adnan.

Jay's knowledge of the car's location (which clearly wasn't obvious as the cops hadn't been able to find it) speaks to his involvement to some degree. He's the only person in the entire story whose involvement (at some level) appears incontrovertible. How else could he know that information? Which I suppose lends credence to his account of events. But if he was involved enough to know what really happened, then why the hell does his story change so much? If he's telling the truth about the big stuff (i.e., Adnan told him he was going to do it, followed through on it, and then requested his help afterwards) why are the details surrounding it so fluid and, often times, just off?

Let's presume Adnan really did do it, Jay's story gets the important things right, and what we heard from Jay's friend from work in yesterday's finale is true and Jay is scared (no apparent reason to doubt that). Is Jay really that terrified of retribution from a 17-year-old kid? I can't quite wrap my head around this. If Adnan is the type of guy to fear in that way or he has connections to such people, then why does Adnan enlist Jay's help in the first place? If you've got connections to the "West Side Hitman" or family/friends capable of intimidating Jay to this degree, then wouldn't they be the types of people you'd contact to help bury the body? Why Jay? This has never made sense to me. I'm trying to think back to the earlier episodes and my memory might be a bit off, but were Adnan and Jay even that close? Sure they used to smoke together and they seemed mates, but was it the type of relationship where you call him up to help with THIS? I thought Jay's statement to the cops was that Adnan contacted him because Jay represented "the criminal element" or something to that effect. So Adnan contacts you because you represent the criminal element, but now you're terrified of Adnan and all his dangerous connections? I just don't follow that. So something isn't adding up there for me.

On top of that, we have how casual Jay's account makes everything seem. He's recounting his friend murdering his ex-girlfriend and yet everything is so damn mundane. Adnan tells Jay he's going to kill her. No big deal. Adnan kills her then shows Jay the body. No problem. They drive around a bit and smoke a joint. Like you do. Pop over to Jay's for some shovels and a nice evening burial. He sees Jen that night and tells her about the murder. They go somewhere to dispose of his clothes and then to wipe down the shovels. Am I crazy or is this all just fucking insane??? Did he ever lose his cool, freak out, try to back out? He really just went along with everything?

I've thought a lot about this and I really don't have a clue how to explain Jay's actions or his differing accounts of events. The one thing I feel pretty damn certain about is that Jay is lying. I don't know if he's lying about everything, minor details, or something in between, but if you're telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" your story doesn't shift as much as his. You don't first tell the cops that Adnan showed you the body off some strip and then two weeks later say he showed it to you outside Best Buy. You don't forget or mistake where someone you consider a friend showed you a dead body, especially when he claims responsibility for the murder. That just doesn't happen. You don't claim to dispose of your clothes the night of the murder when Jen claims you did it the next day. So when push comes to shove, I find it very hard to believe Jay's story. That's one sketchy dude. Which is a pretty fucking big red flag for the "Adnan did it" narrative. I wouldn't trust Jay to tell me yesterday's weather; I really struggle to see how a jury convicted a 17-year-old kid on basically his word alone. That's a really tough sell for me. As the one student for the Innocence Review put it, I've got "mountains of reasonable doubt."

On the other hand, I'm a firm subscriber to Occam's razor and, in this case, the simplest explanation seems to be that Adnan did it. He's got motive, no alibi, and a witness (a friend, no less) saying he did it. That's a ton of just unbelievably shitty luck if you're innocent. Any other explanation for Hae's murder involves some fairly big leaps for which the evidence of the case doesn't allow.

The other thing I think we need to consider is the role of Serial itself. They made a podcast about this case. A very popular podcast. Months and months of detailed investigative work went into it. And we, the viewers, know all of this. We come into the show somewhat pre-conditioned to presume Adnan's innocence. You don't tell a 12-part story over three months about a murder where they caught and convicted the right guy. What a pointless exercise. Of course the state bungled the case. Of course Jay is one shady motherfucker. Adnan sounds like a totally normal guy. We want him to be innocent because it's just a much better viewing experience to piece by piece uncover the real killer. I don't think that effect can be overstated. I know I found myself jumping all over any inconsistencies in Jay's stories and probably attempting to rationalize those in Adnan's because, well, it's a way better story that way.

So I guess that was a really long-winded way of saying that I think Adnan most likely committed the murder, but, in spite of that, I don't see how he was convicted of the crime.
[close]


Really glad I started listening and I can't wait to see what they do for Season 2.


It's pretty obvious that the killer is part of the shadowy criminal masterminds also known as Mail Kimp.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab2d45a77/the-last-episode-of-serial


Saw that last night. Hilarious.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 11:55:20 pm by Vork+The Knights of Good »
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Offline Lfsea

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2014, 12:04:51 pm »


Really enjoyed your post, Vork.

Reading it (and I'm not suggesting you implied it) the thought struck me:

Spoiler
Might Adnan and Jay have been lovers/having a gay relationship? Would this explain both of their inabilities to, at the time, properly account for their actions/movements?
[close]

Offline litliper

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2014, 12:14:09 pm »

Really enjoyed your post, Vork.

Reading it (and I'm not suggesting you implied it) the thought struck me:

Spoiler
Might Adnan and Jay have been lovers/having a gay relationship? Would this explain both of their inabilities to, at the time, properly account for their actions/movements?
[close]

I had this thought too!

Spoiler
What if Adnan is too ashamed to admit it because of his religion and community? But am I then seriously suggesting that he's willing to spend his life in jail because of it? I honestly have given this theory some thought. It's pretty far out there but then again the whole thing is pretty far out there as it stands.
[close]

In fact when I google this theory others have suggested it too.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 12:16:01 pm by litliper »
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Offline Elzar

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2014, 12:42:27 pm »

Really enjoyed your post, Vork.

Reading it (and I'm not suggesting you implied it) the thought struck me:

Spoiler
Might Adnan and Jay have been lovers/having a gay relationship? Would this explain both of their inabilities to, at the time, properly account for their actions/movements?
[close]

Spoiler
I might be missing something, but what would be the motive to murder in that case?
[close]
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Offline Lfsea

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2014, 12:50:40 pm »
Spoiler
I might be missing something, but what would be the motive to murder in that case?
[close]

Spoiler
Nothing to do with the murder per se, but the circumstances that surround their movements after it and their vague explanations as to their whereabouts
[close]

Offline Brian Blessed

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2014, 02:10:06 pm »
Spoiler
Nothing to do with the murder per se, but the circumstances that surround their movements after it and their vague explanations as to their whereabouts
[close]
Spoiler
or Hae caught Adnan giving Jay a nosh. She had to go.
[close]

Online Ray K

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2014, 07:17:08 pm »
I think Sarah started out as thinking that he's clearly not guilty and that this was a clear miscarriage of justice.
You could feel her becoming less and less sure over the past few weeks, but seemed to be pulled back on track in the last episode.
Though the Innocence Project's serial killer angle was a bit too deus ex machina for me, (And a bit too McNulty in Season 5 of The Wire-esque) and possibly for her so she didn't pursue it too strongly.

Spoiler
Her conclusions were basically sound.  She would have voted to acquit, not on the overwhelming sense of his innocence, but rather because the main witness's evidence was completely contradictory and unreliable.
Looking at his five interviews there's hardly any consistency in his timelines, even when the cops have basically presented the phone evidence and asked him to frame a narrative around them. Which any competent defence lawyer should have demolished.

Adnan was fucked by Jay, the cops's willingness to believe Jay, and a shitty lawyer.

[close]

Basically I'm agreeing with Vork's lengthy and well-argued post.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2014, 08:01:29 pm »
Listened to all of it while convalescing yesterday.
Spoiler
Adnan did it and Jay was more involved then he let on hence the inconsistencies with the story and phone logs. Adnan could obviously be up for parole now if he came clean, but his persona is based on 'being a nice guy' without that mask he would have nothing left, so he prefers to keep up with the farce. Jay, even though he is slightly leftfield comes across as a genuinely nice guy, who somehow managed to get himself involved and immediately recoiled from the horror of what he got himself into. Adnan had to find an excuse to get into Hae's car, hence pretending that he needed a lift and giving the car to Jay, which implicated him. I think Adnan managed to get into Hae's car and they drove to where his allegedly broken down car was, Best buy or that other place, where Jay was waiting. That was where he strangled her and I think Jay might have helped remove her body and put into the trunk of Adnan's car. One of them drove Hae's car to the place it was dumped, while the other one followed behind. It could possibly have taken place at Woodland library, and then Adnan called Jay, which would implicate him less.

That trip to Cathy's place, to provide an alibi for BOTH of them was telling. She was a friend of Jen's and only a passing acquaintance of Jay, so it was odd for him to turn up at her place with Adnan to smoke some joints. He was also not the laid back Jay but asking questions etc, acting not his normal self. Again, I think he caught on later that night how odd that visit must have seemed so he returned with Jen and made out it was nothing. I think Jay and Adnan buried the body in Leekin Park, might have smoked a joint at Potomac viewing point to discuss what to do with the body. It doesn't matter too much, whether Adnan went to track training or not, nor does the Neesha call have the relevance it did if both of them were more in it then Jay has led on. It might have happened on that day or might have been a butt-call. Jay getting involved in the first place is a bit of a mystery, he comes across as being quite a decent guy once you get past the Rodmon craziness. Selling a bit a weed is not the same as being a hardened criminal.

Adnan had a motive, in all the prison phone transcripts, he rarely talks about Hae. Not speaking at both trials, I find that a bit odd if you are innocent, and even though the jury were explicitly told not to make anything of it, those interviewed did. Is Adnan a sociopath? hard to tell, and as sarah pointed out not every sociopath is a murderer, in fact many of us have managers at work who share the same traits. Even though their was a bit of planning in Hae's murder, I think it was a crime of passion, he was seething inside but could not show it, certainly not to his close circle of friends, who were also friends with Hae. The good personable persona which probably makes up a large part of who he is, is what they saw, but with Jay, I think he showed his other side, hence, all the threats and telling him what he was going to do to her. Adnan's comments to Jay in court "Pathetic!", I read that as Adnan admonishing Jay, who was always in on it, for pussying out, developing a conscience and coming clean.

I hope the DNA matches that other guy, and Adnan somehow is not guilty because he certainly comes across as a likeable guy, but that does not explain how Jay knew where the car was. In a way, you look at that picture of Adnan's mugshot, that is an expression of a young man who knows he's done something wrong and he's been busted, he looks so sad and mournful. Jay incidentally after doing an internet search, has the same mournful sad eyes, I find it hard to believe either of them could have been involved in such a heinous crime but I think they were.

In terms of law, Adnan, I agree with Sarah, he should not have been convicted, their was not enough evidence. It would have meant that the police would have had to lean more on Jay, which would have lead to 'bad evidence'.


[close]
Great show, looking forward to the next series.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 08:12:46 pm by Twelfth Man »
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Offline Vork+The Knights of Good

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2014, 10:14:08 pm »

Really enjoyed your post, Vork.

Reading it (and I'm not suggesting you implied it) the thought struck me:

Spoiler
Might Adnan and Jay have been lovers/having a gay relationship? Would this explain both of their inabilities to, at the time, properly account for their actions/movements?
[close]

Wow. That thought definitely did not occur to me.

Listened to all of it while convalescing yesterday.
Spoiler
Adnan did it and Jay was more involved then he let on hence the inconsistencies with the story and phone logs. Adnan could obviously be up for parole now if he came clean, but his persona is based on 'being a nice guy' without that mask he would have nothing left, so he prefers to keep up with the farce. Jay, even though he is slightly leftfield comes across as a genuinely nice guy, who somehow managed to get himself involved and immediately recoiled from the horror of what he got himself into. Adnan had to find an excuse to get into Hae's car, hence pretending that he needed a lift and giving the car to Jay, which implicated him. I think Adnan managed to get into Hae's car and they drove to where his allegedly broken down car was, Best buy or that other place, where Jay was waiting. That was where he strangled her and I think Jay might have helped remove her body and put into the trunk of Adnan's car. One of them drove Hae's car to the place it was dumped, while the other one followed behind. It could possibly have taken place at Woodland library, and then Adnan called Jay, which would implicate him less.

That trip to Cathy's place, to provide an alibi for BOTH of them was telling. She was a friend of Jen's and only a passing acquaintance of Jay, so it was odd for him to turn up at her place with Adnan to smoke some joints. He was also not the laid back Jay but asking questions etc, acting not his normal self. Again, I think he caught on later that night how odd that visit must have seemed so he returned with Jen and made out it was nothing. I think Jay and Adnan buried the body in Leekin Park, might have smoked a joint at Potomac viewing point to discuss what to do with the body. It doesn't matter too much, whether Adnan went to track training or not, nor does the Neesha call have the relevance it did if both of them were more in it then Jay has led on. It might have happened on that day or might have been a butt-call. Jay getting involved in the first place is a bit of a mystery, he comes across as being quite a decent guy once you get past the Rodmon craziness. Selling a bit a weed is not the same as being a hardened criminal.

Adnan had a motive, in all the prison phone transcripts, he rarely talks about Hae. Not speaking at both trials, I find that a bit odd if you are innocent, and even though the jury were explicitly told not to make anything of it, those interviewed did. Is Adnan a sociopath? hard to tell, and as sarah pointed out not every sociopath is a murderer, in fact many of us have managers at work who share the same traits. Even though their was a bit of planning in Hae's murder, I think it was a crime of passion, he was seething inside but could not show it, certainly not to his close circle of friends, who were also friends with Hae. The good personable persona which probably makes up a large part of who he is, is what they saw, but with Jay, I think he showed his other side, hence, all the threats and telling him what he was going to do to her. Adnan's comments to Jay in court "Pathetic!", I read that as Adnan admonishing Jay, who was always in on it, for pussying out, developing a conscience and coming clean.

I hope the DNA matches that other guy, and Adnan somehow is not guilty because he certainly comes across as a likeable guy, but that does not explain how Jay knew where the car was. In a way, you look at that picture of Adnan's mugshot, that is an expression of a young man who knows he's done something wrong and he's been busted, he looks so sad and mournful. Jay incidentally after doing an internet search, has the same mournful sad eyes, I find it hard to believe either of them could have been involved in such a heinous crime but I think they were.

In terms of law, Adnan, I agree with Sarah, he should not have been convicted, their was not enough evidence. It would have meant that the police would have had to lean more on Jay, which would have lead to 'bad evidence'.


[close]
Great show, looking forward to the next series.

Spoiler
I've definitely considered this theory, as it helps explain a lot of questions about Jay, but the one thing I keep coming back to is what possible motive does Jay have to help Adnan with the murder? I struggle to understand why he even helped bury her (perhaps the answer is precisely because he was more actively involved in her death than he let on), but I can't understand why he'd want Hae dead in the first place. Maybe Hae caught onto him cheating and threatened to tell Stephanie? One would think that might be something Hae would detail in her diary, though, and she never did. There's no evidence that we know of indicating Hae communicated with Jay or Stephanie in the build up to her death, which she likely would have if she was planning on talking to Stephanie and Jay became aware of it. So assigning motive for Jay is pretty much all conjecture. He might have wanted Hae dead. He might have helped Adnan prior to her death as well as after. There isn't anything that points to that, though. It's just our inability to understand why his stories don't line up which isn't helped by the fact that it appears that the state's timeline for Hae's death is off. It's just one giant clusterfuck of a case and I'm starting to hate Sarah Koenig for forcing me to think about this shit over and over.
[close]

I think Sarah started out as thinking that he's clearly not guilty and that this was a clear miscarriage of justice.
You could feel her becoming less and less sure over the past few weeks, but seemed to be pulled back on track in the last episode.
Though the Innocence Project's serial killer angle was a bit too deus ex machina for me, (And a bit too McNulty in Season 5 of The Wire-esque) and possibly for her so she didn't pursue it too strongly.

Spoiler
Her conclusions were basically sound.  She would have voted to acquit, not on the overwhelming sense of his innocence, but rather because the main witness's evidence was completely contradictory and unreliable.
Looking at his five interviews there's hardly any consistency in his timelines, even when the cops have basically presented the phone evidence and asked him to frame a narrative around them. Which any competent defence lawyer should have demolished.

Adnan was fucked by Jay, the cops's willingness to believe Jay, and a shitty lawyer.

[close]

Basically I'm agreeing with Vork's lengthy and well-argued post.

Spoiler
I thought the stuff with his defense attorney was fascinating. What the fuck was going on with her? I wish they had devoted a bit more time to that.
[close]
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2014, 10:29:42 pm »
Spoiler
I've definitely considered this theory, as it helps explain a lot of questions about Jay, but the one thing I keep coming back to is what possible motive does Jay have to help Adnan with the murder? I struggle to understand why he even helped bury her (perhaps the answer is precisely because he was more actively involved in her death than he let on), but I can't understand why he'd want Hae dead in the first place. Maybe Hae caught onto him cheating and threatened to tell Stephanie? One would think that might be something Hae would detail in her diary, though, and she never did. There's no evidence that we know of indicating Hae communicated with Jay or Stephanie in the build up to her death, which she likely would have if she was planning on talking to Stephanie and Jay became aware of it. So assigning motive for Jay is pretty much all conjecture. He might have wanted Hae dead. He might have helped Adnan prior to her death as well as after. There isn't anything that points to that, though. It's just our inability to understand why his stories don't line up which isn't helped by the fact that it appears that the state's timeline for Hae's death is off. It's just one giant clusterfuck of a case and I'm starting to hate Sarah Koenig for forcing me to think about this shit over and over.
[close]

Spoiler
I thought the stuff with his defense attorney was fascinating. What the fuck was going on with her? I wish they had devoted a bit more time to that.
[close]
Spoiler
I agree that is the most troubling aspect of the most obvious scenario. I don't think Jay had a motive to kill Hae, rather, he was closer to Adnan than either made out, and that he knew of Adnan's plans and somehow got caught up in it, maybe blackmail over having an affair with Jen (stepping-out), or perhaps Adnan threatened him, the later interview with the guy who worked in the porn shop who recalled that Jay was paranoid about Adnan getting people to kill him or Stephanie.

I too loved the parts when they hired the 'criminal expert' and that other lawyer and how they picked apart the case and conjectured on sociopaths, whether Adnan was or was not. I still can't tell. I'm going with the Jungian persona thing, he built up this amiable, well liked persona, but he had a darker side. Whether that makes him a sociopath I don't know.
[close]
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2014, 10:49:02 pm »
@Vorks+The Knights of Good
Spoiler
It is interesting that you find Jay to be "one shady motherfucker", I actually feel he's quite a decent chap all in all. Apart from selling marijuana their is little to suggest he was some sort of nefarious character. Just more streetwise then the typical kid that went to that school. He appears shady when he recounts what happened because he's trying to hide the degree of his involvement. That is the crux of it, how and why did he get involved in the first place. I think Adnan calling him 'pathetic' in court is the key. Did Jay in a jokey way dare, egg-on Adnan to do it, only to be horrified when he actually went and murdered her?
[close]
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Vork+The Knights of Good

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2014, 12:21:36 am »
@Vorks+The Knights of Good
Spoiler
It is interesting that you find Jay to be "one shady motherfucker", I actually feel he's quite a decent chap all in all. Apart from selling marijuana their is little to suggest he was some sort of nefarious character. Just more streetwise then the typical kid that went to that school. He appears shady when he recounts what happened because he's trying to hide the degree of his involvement. That is the crux of it, how and why did he get involved in the first place. I think Adnan calling him 'pathetic' in court is the key. Did Jay in a jokey way dare, egg-on Adnan to do it, only to be horrified when he actually went and murdered her?
[close]

Spoiler
I call him shady for no other reason than his fluid account of the day's events. Telling the truth isn't difficult, especially regarding such a momentous day. No way in hell he's unsure of where Adnan showed him the body. If that is how it went down, then you know where it happened. It doesn't change over the course of two weeks. He may seem like a decent chap because all he does is sell weed, but that gets trumped by his, at best, inconsistent stories regarding a murder case in which he's the key witness accusing another kid of the crime. If you want the benefit of the doubt on that stuff then your story better add up and his never did. So yes, I consider him a shady motherfucker whether he sells drugs or not.
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Offline Vork+The Knights of Good

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2014, 12:35:31 am »
Interesting piece written by Rabia Chaudry, the woman who introduced Koenig to the case. Particularly that penultimate sentence.

http://time.com/3641263/serial-adnan-sarah-koenig-murder/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 12:39:34 am by Vork+The Knights of Good »
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2014, 12:46:02 am »
Spoiler
I call him shady for no other reason than his fluid account of the day's events. Telling the truth isn't difficult, especially regarding such a momentous day. No way in hell he's unsure of where Adnan showed him the body. If that is how it went down, then you know where it happened. It doesn't change over the course of two weeks. He may seem like a decent chap because all he does is sell weed, but that gets trumped by his, at best, inconsistent stories regarding a murder case in which he's the key witness accusing another kid of the crime. If you want the benefit of the doubt on that stuff then your story better add up and his never did. So yes, I consider him a shady motherfucker whether he sells drugs or not.
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Spoiler
Or, Adnan is a sociopath, adept at manipulating people. He managed to embroil Jay into the murder and that is why, the key inconsistencies around his statements all point to the level of Jay's involvement. I think he might have been parked up beside where Hae thought Adnan's broken down car was, he may perhaps even have witnessed him strangle her and popped the trunk for Adnan to move the dead body into. Which would mean he was involved in it up to his neck. My suspicion is that he was around when Adnan strangled her, not in the car but near it. The fear of cameras is why he kept on changing his story. If that is the case. I'd have to agree he's a shady mofo, but he deserves some credit for at least eventually coming forward and coming as clean as he could without totally fucking himself up. According to his and Jen's story, he immediately had to tell her after leaving Adnan. That sounds like someone who was in shock and disbelief at what had just happened. Perhaps it was as he painted it, Adnan had been telling him for sometime about his intentions, but he never took him seriously, when it did happen, he got swept up with the event, only to finally get back his conscience once he'd left Adnan and was alone with Jen. Adnan can't implicate him further without giving himself away, so he labels him 'pathetic' in court.
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« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 12:49:35 am by Twelfth Man »
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2014, 03:00:15 am »
I don't think character should come into it - not in the setting of a podcast almost two decades on. We don't have anywhere near enough testimony from non biased sources at the time well knew adnan/jay well enough for us to be judging their characters and whether that sways us to believe what they were and weren't capable of.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2014, 03:04:35 am »
I don't think character should come into it - not in the setting of a podcast almost two decades on. We don't have anywhere near enough testimony from non biased sources at the time well knew adnan/jay well enough for us to be judging their characters and whether that sways us to believe what they were and weren't capable of.
Vork touched on it, the fact that it is a serialised podcast, sometimes you can forget that actually it is a true life case. Fair point, but you can't help yourself from conjecturing.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2014, 03:55:27 am »
Spoiler
Or, Adnan is a sociopath, adept at manipulating people. He managed to embroil Jay into the murder and that is why, the key inconsistencies around his statements all point to the level of Jay's involvement. I think he might have been parked up beside where Hae thought Adnan's broken down car was, he may perhaps even have witnessed him strangle her and popped the trunk for Adnan to move the dead body into. Which would mean he was involved in it up to his neck. My suspicion is that he was around when Adnan strangled her, not in the car but near it. The fear of cameras is why he kept on changing his story. If that is the case. I'd have to agree he's a shady mofo, but he deserves some credit for at least eventually coming forward and coming as clean as he could without totally fucking himself up. According to his and Jen's story, he immediately had to tell her after leaving Adnan. That sounds like someone who was in shock and disbelief at what had just happened. Perhaps it was as he painted it, Adnan had been telling him for sometime about his intentions, but he never took him seriously, when it did happen, he got swept up with the event, only to finally get back his conscience once he'd left Adnan and was alone with Jen. Adnan can't implicate him further without giving himself away, so he labels him 'pathetic' in court.
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Spoiler
Not sure if that adds up, though. If all he did was witness the crime, without participating in the murder, then he hasn't actually done anything wrong. I'm sure he'd be scared and all, but he has no problem telling the cops that he helped Adnan drive around with the body, hide her car, and then bury the body, so why hide the fact that he was present at the time of the killing, if it was really out of his control? If all he did was see Adnan kill her and then help him put the body in the trunk, is that really that much worse than everything else to which he admits? Besides, witnessing the actual crime would only make his testimony that much stronger, so there's even some strange benefit to admitting to that.

As for the coming clean bit, let's keep in mind that, according to his own story, after the murder the two of them drove around for a bit, hid the car, tried to buy some weed, went to a park and smoked, went to a friend's house, went back to get the car, and then buried the body. This all took hours and doesn't really sound like someone getting swept up in the moment or someone in over his head. It doesn't sound like he tried very hard to get away from Adnan over the hours they spent together. He then apparently tells Jen that same night that "Adnan killed Hae" which could be his conscience, but if it was and it simply lay dormant that whole time he was with Adnan, then why doesn't he go to the cops at any point over the next month and a half? Why does he let Hae's family and friends worry for weeks and weeks about her whereabouts without at least an anonymous call saying she's dead? Why is it over a month before the cops are even aware of his role and then only from Jen and after she previously tells them she doesn't know anything? It's at this point that he finally talks and gives what we'll generously call a questionable account of the day. I don't know. Perhaps there's a reasonable explanation for all of that, but it doesn't sound to me like someone burdened by guilt or conscience.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2014, 04:00:19 am »
I don't think character should come into it - not in the setting of a podcast almost two decades on. We don't have anywhere near enough testimony from non biased sources at the time well knew adnan/jay well enough for us to be judging their characters and whether that sways us to believe what they were and weren't capable of.

I don't think I'm judging his possible actions based on his character, but rather his character based on his documented actions. I'm not trying to say who's capable of what. IMO, most people are capable of just about anything given the proper circumstances.
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Offline DanA

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Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2014, 04:15:39 am »
My theory is Anan and Jay got stoned and Jay helped arranged someone to kill her for Anan during that day. It's why he lent his car and phone to Jay, why they were In the seedy part of Baltimore and who Jay was really shit scared of and lying for.

Kind of makes sense of all the evidence including a bit my G/F read on Reddit about Hai's CC being used at a gads station 30 minutes away.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2014, 04:26:58 am »
My theory is Anan and Jay got stoned and Jay helped arranged someone to kill her for Anan during that day. It's why he lent his car and phone to Jay, why they were In the seedy part of Baltimore and who Jay was really shit scared of and lying for.

Kind of makes sense of all the evidence including a bit my G/F read on Reddit about Hai's CC being used at a gads station 30 minutes away.

Spoiler
The problem with that theory (aside from the obvious) is why would he tell Jen about the murder if he was so actively involved in it? The only explanation I can come up with to account for that is Jay was planning to set up Adnan all along, but that speaks to a far more premeditated plan than what you describe. Plus you'd expect him to have a far more airtight story than what he presented to the cops if he put that type of thought into it.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2014, 12:11:18 am »
I don't think I'm judging his possible actions based on his character, but rather his character based on his documented actions. I'm not trying to say who's capable of what. IMO, most people are capable of just about anything given the proper circumstances.

Oh I know. I don't disagree with anything you've said and the summary above is something I go along with completely. I just find it odd some people talk about Adnan's character - some people are "charmed" by him, some are taken aback by how unpeturbed he seems to be about discussing it all - I just think that part of it is a waste of time and skews things big time based on virtually nothing. "No way could Adnan have done it, he sounds like such a nice guy" - this line of thinking confuses me because we know SO little about him. As with one of the earlier points - Jay is shady because he keeps changing his story and not really because of anything else. Sarah K goes to great lengths to present the facts that we know and to present and speculate on the remaining gaps. In the medium of a podcast 15 years down the line designed specifically to try and prove adnan's innocence - I think to start speculating on what sort of person the main people involved were (beyond that they were just 17-18 year olds who smoked a bit of weed but didn't do anything else remotely this big prior to Hae Lee's murder) has the potential to skew viewpoints massively. Twelfth night is right though - it's hard not to. I think back to the people I went to secondary school with and wonder what sort of things I'd be saying if something like this happened at my school. All those people I vaguley knew, played footy with, saw on a night out occasionaly etc.

What interests me the most is that everyone seemed so clear cut about convincting Adnan as guilty. The jury, the prosecuting cops and this coupled with an experienced (although unwell) defence lawyer "missing" a lot of the holes in the evidence that Sarah presents to us. If it's so clear now, if it's such a messy case, if it's so shoddy in hindsight why wasn't it 15 years ago? Does the viewpoint that we are hearing Sarah's story (and lets  be honest it is still a story and a journey told from her point of view) distort things that much?  It'd be interesting to see how local news reported the case after Adnan was sentenced.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 12:16:58 am by Guz-kop »
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2014, 06:31:50 pm »
Oh I know. I don't disagree with anything you've said and the summary above is something I go along with completely. I just find it odd some people talk about Adnan's character - some people are "charmed" by him, some are taken aback by how unpeturbed he seems to be about discussing it all - I just think that part of it is a waste of time and skews things big time based on virtually nothing. "No way could Adnan have done it, he sounds like such a nice guy" - this line of thinking confuses me because we know SO little about him. As with one of the earlier points - Jay is shady because he keeps changing his story and not really because of anything else. Sarah K goes to great lengths to present the facts that we know and to present and speculate on the remaining gaps. In the medium of a podcast 15 years down the line designed specifically to try and prove adnan's innocence - I think to start speculating on what sort of person the main people involved were (beyond that they were just 17-18 year olds who smoked a bit of weed but didn't do anything else remotely this big prior to Hae Lee's murder) has the potential to skew viewpoints massively. Twelfth night is right though - it's hard not to. I think back to the people I went to secondary school with and wonder what sort of things I'd be saying if something like this happened at my school. All those people I vaguley knew, played footy with, saw on a night out occasionaly etc.

What interests me the most is that everyone seemed so clear cut about convincting Adnan as guilty. The jury, the prosecuting cops and this coupled with an experienced (although unwell) defence lawyer "missing" a lot of the holes in the evidence that Sarah presents to us. If it's so clear now, if it's such a messy case, if it's so shoddy in hindsight why wasn't it 15 years ago? Does the viewpoint that we are hearing Sarah's story (and lets  be honest it is still a story and a journey told from her point of view) distort things that much?  It'd be interesting to see how local news reported the case after Adnan was sentenced.

I think those are all very fair points. I always found the arguments about Adnan's character and his attitude now to be interesting. The "he's such a nice guy" thing just never held any water for me. Even if he his a nice guy, nice guys can do horrible things. Do we really think no "nice guy" has ever killed someone before? The only murderers out there are people where we could all see it coming? And to be fair to Adnan, he pretty much says something similar in that one episode where he tires of people saying how nice he is. I thought that was one of the most interesting moments in the whole series. As for his attitude now, what you describe as being "unperturbed," I think that's an area where the 15 years is a major factor. We've all been introduced to this and immersed in it within a handful of weeks. He's had nearly two decades to cope with the reality of his situation. Do people really think this is the first time he's talked about the case? Between the actual case, appeals, talking to friends/family, and discussions with his fellow inmates I can't even imagine how many times he's discussed the case. Expecting him to have some huge emotional reaction at this point and then judging him based on those expectations seems extremely naive.

As to your second point, I think the case appears so messy now precisely because we have a deep investigation poking holes in it and, for whatever reason, Adnan's attorney didn't do the same back then. I'm sure the prosecution's case seemed much more airtight in 1999 (this is supported by the fact that the jury reached a verdict so quickly). They presented a witness with no apparent reason for falsely testifying whose account was "corroborated" by the phone records and a defendant with no alibi and an apparent grievance towards the victim. A deeper look into those phone records reveals that his story wasn't really corroborated, but it's all about how one presents the case. The prosecution obviously presented a compelling case and the defense didn't do an adequate job of dismembering it. It's also important to remember that we're hearing many things the jury did not. For one, we hear from Adnan. Secondly, we don't have a judge ruling what evidence is admissible, what line of questioning is out of bounds, what we can and can't consider in reaching a verdict. Third, Koenig and her team present a lot of facts that were simply missing from the case (Asia, the possible butt dial, the vanishing pay phone, etc.). So I'm sure if you took the exact same 12 jurors and had them rule on the Koenig case (rather than Prosecution case), you'd get the same 12 different conclusions than those they reached in 1999.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2014, 08:06:03 pm »
I think another reason why Adnan is so unemotional when he talks about the past is simply for his own mental health.  He would go insane if he was still angry/upset/revengeful with all those hours to think about it. He HAS to detach himself from the past and accept the almost certainty that he will die in jail.

One of the most interesting parts for me was when Adnan was saying his advice to others in the same situation (let's assume he is innocent for a second) is to take a plea and possibly be out of jail in 30/40 years.  That blew my mind but as Sarah pointed out - you won't get out early protesting your innocence.

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2014, 12:38:37 am »
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/


Interesting Jay's first official interview.

Hmm...

So my first thought after reading that (and I'm sure I'll have many more to come): his entire contention is that he was worried about getting arrested. That's essentially his explanation for everything he did. Why then would he admit to being an accessory to burying the body (which would and did bring its own arrest)? Is it better to be arrested for that then dealing pot? Also why, if he was so concerned about protecting all those people he named, would he tell Jenn about the murder the night it happened? It's very strange interpreting this account outside of "Serial." It somehow feels less official. I need Sarah to way in on this interview.

That tidbit about the anonymous tip is very interesting...
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2014, 12:49:14 am »
Hmm...

So my first thought after reading that (and I'm sure I'll have many more to come): his entire contention is that he was worried about getting arrested. That's essentially his explanation for everything he did. Why then would he admit to being an accessory to burying the body (which would and did bring its own arrest)? Is it better to be arrested for that then dealing pot? Also why, if he was so concerned about protecting all those people he named, would he tell Jenn about the murder the night it happened? It's very strange interpreting this account outside of "Serial." It somehow feels less official. I need Sarah to way in on this interview.

That tidbit about the anonymous tip is very interesting...
Protecting his grandmother, being the first place he saw Hae's body, was at his house. Would partially explain one of the big inconsistencies in his various accounts/testimonies. Still can't get my head around why he would help Adnan dig a grave or even be involved in anyway at all. I have little doubts as to Adnan being the killer. The only mystery that remains is how, why did jay get involved. When will we find out about the DNA tests? Part 2 and the anonymous tip hopefully will go someway to clearing Jay's complicity in the murder up.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2014, 01:14:59 am »
It's really odd. He really downplays the friendship but seems to know a lot about his mindset at the time and there's no account of why they were together. Has he just mentioned another place where the "trunk pop" took place or I have I forgotten details? Strange. Though I guess it's difficult to put too much weight on details for an interview of an event 15 years previously....though you'd think he'd just listen to the podcast and go with what he told the jury or at least be careful about adding in anymore inconsistencies? It's hard to decide how much credence to pay to this.

However - strange that he downplays the friendship so much but they were hanging out when Adnan skipped school. It's strange that he doesn't seem to have done anything at all really except drive Adnan around a bit but Adnan felt compelled to take his help so much. It's strange that he was terrified of the police (standalone I guess not strange) but he felt he had the balls to "stonewall" them at the age of 19 or whatever he was. It's strange he talks about the tight-lip nature of Baltimore residents but admits to spilling everything at the time. As Vork says above - strange he's terrified of going away for selling weed but seems to be confident that he can broker a deal where he's not accessory to murder.

Makes me wonder why he did the interview, not sure what he gets out of this?

Just more questions, no clarity at all. Basically nothing to see here eh?
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2014, 01:22:05 am »
Protecting his grandmother, being the first place he saw Hae's body, was at his house. Would partially explain one of the big inconsistencies in his various accounts/testimonies.

It's a fair point I suppose. If sincere/true - it goes some way to explain the inconsistencies in that part of his story.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2014, 02:39:30 am »
Yeah, the friendship angle is something I mentioned many posts ago. I didn't remember them delving too deeply into that on the podcast (could just be faulty memory on my part), but it was always my impression that they never seemed very close which I guess Jay has now confirmed. So the major question for me is why would Adnan ask for Jay's help and, in so doing, reveal what he had done? Why risk so fucking much to enlist Jay's help? What does he bring to the table, if it's not the trust of a close confidant? I don't get it. Can someone point to an instance that night where, according to Jay, his presence or help is simply indispensable to Adnan? I'd argue that the only real consistency throughout Jay's various testimonies and interviews, including this most recent one, is that he was just kinda there. He doesn't show him where to bury the body. It's not such a physically demanding task that Adnan is incapable of doing it himself. Jay never claims to be the brains of the operation or a calming influence to someone ready to go off the rails. He's just sort of along for the ride. I certainly don't think this proves Adnan's innocence, but it's something that has never added up to me and this new interview only deepens that suspicion.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2014, 02:55:25 am »
Yeah, the friendship angle is something I mentioned many posts ago. I didn't remember them delving too deeply into that on the podcast (could just be faulty memory on my part), but it was always my impression that they never seemed very close which I guess Jay has now confirmed. So the major question for me is why would Adnan ask for Jay's help and, in so doing, reveal what he had done? Why risk so fucking much to enlist Jay's help? What does he bring to the table, if it's not the trust of a close confidant? I don't get it. Can someone point to an instance that night where, according to Jay, his presence or help is simply indispensable to Adnan? I'd argue that the only real consistency throughout Jay's various testimonies and interviews, including this most recent one, is that he was just kinda there. He doesn't show him where to bury the body. It's not such a physically demanding task that Adnan is incapable of doing it himself. Jay never claims to be the brains of the operation or a calming influence to someone ready to go off the rails. He's just sort of along for the ride. I certainly don't think this proves Adnan's innocence, but it's something that has never added up to me and this new interview only deepens that suspicion.
The car angle, Adnan gave Jay his car and mobile, so he had an excuse for a lift with Hae. Which suggests that Jay was part of the planning. But again, why get involved, what is the motive for Jay? I think Jay was Adnan's confidant during the pre-build-up to the murder. Jay I think, thought Adnan was just blowing steam, and that he would never do such a thing. Still can't figure out why he would help dig her grave. All the drug dealer stuff sounds like baloney. But maybe as he says in the interview, that things were quite harsh back then in Baltimore and he was looking at a 3-5 year stretch if Adnan grassed him up. He felt compelled to help Adnan but later changed his mind once he faced up to the full horror of what had taken place.
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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2014, 05:14:09 am »
The car angle, Adnan gave Jay his car and mobile, so he had an excuse for a lift with Hae. Which suggests that Jay was part of the planning. But again, why get involved, what is the motive for Jay? I think Jay was Adnan's confidant during the pre-build-up to the murder. Jay I think, thought Adnan was just blowing steam, and that he would never do such a thing. Still can't figure out why he would help dig her grave. All the drug dealer stuff sounds like baloney. But maybe as he says in the interview, that things were quite harsh back then in Baltimore and he was looking at a 3-5 year stretch if Adnan grassed him up. He felt compelled to help Adnan but later changed his mind once he faced up to the full horror of what had taken place.

Not sure that suggests he was part of the planning, but either way it raises plenty of questions. I still have trouble understanding why Adnan turns to Jay of all people, premeditated or not. If it was premeditated, then as you rightly question, what the hell is Jay's motive? And why would Adnan be so stupid as to trust someone with no motive? If it wasn't premeditated, why does Adnan even need Jay's help after the murder has taken place? Sure, let him borrow your car and phone so that you can get a ride from Hae, but don't fucking confess to him after the fact, show him the body, and ask/blackmail him for his help. Involving him is a fatal risk and I don't understand the benefit. He clearly doesn't need any help physically moving the body as evidenced by his ability to murder her and place her in the trunk unseen. It probably makes burying her more expeditious, but if you really value that then of all the people in your world you could turn to you're going to trust some guy you've smoked with a few times to be the one to help you? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Damn you, Koenig!
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2014, 05:54:32 am »
Not sure that suggests he was part of the planning, but either way it raises plenty of questions. I still have trouble understanding why Adnan turns to Jay of all people, premeditated or not. If it was premeditated, then as you rightly question, what the hell is Jay's motive? And why would Adnan be so stupid as to trust someone with no motive? If it wasn't premeditated, why does Adnan even need Jay's help after the murder has taken place? Sure, let him borrow your car and phone so that you can get a ride from Hae, but don't fucking confess to him after the fact, show him the body, and ask/blackmail him for his help. Involving him is a fatal risk and I don't understand the benefit. He clearly doesn't need any help physically moving the body as evidenced by his ability to murder her and place her in the trunk unseen. It probably makes burying her more expeditious, but if you really value that then of all the people in your world you could turn to you're going to trust some guy you've smoked with a few times to be the one to help you? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Damn you, Koenig!
Jay was the only person he could mouth off to about killing Hae, prior to the murder. All the rest of his friend circle were close to Hae. So had Hae suddenly gone missing, Jay would have been the only one who could possibly have known about it and Adnan's desire to kill her. Still does not explain why or how he get involved so deeply. Personally, I think just going from the telephone chats between Koenig and Adnan, Adnan is guilty. He hardly ever talked about his innocence, or being not guilty, instead he cooly analysed all the developments to refute the 'case' against him rather than shouting from the rooftops, I DID NOT KILL HEA, I'M INNOCENT. He could have been up for parole now had he come clean when caught. We would also have got the true role of Jay in the murder, but because he can't bring himself to admit what he did and give up the I'm innocent/'good guy' persona, we will never truly know just how involved Jay was, which I don't think is that much anyway. Great series, but in the end their was no major twist, I think the right person is behind bars even if the state case against him was not strong enough to convict. The DNA evidence might prove otherwise. But I very much doubt it.
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Offline Guz-kop

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2014, 09:10:58 am »
They did explore their friendship in the podcast and the impression I came away with was they were not very close. Stephanie and Adnan were close and Adnan often smoked weed but that seems to be it. Doesn't explain why adnan would lend him his phone/car or why Jay would often (or even once at all) pick up Adnan from school. Both of those points give the impression they were pretty close but SK finds this difficult to prove in the podcast and seemingly no one went into it at prosecution.

To me their relationship is the crux of the case. My personal view is that both of them downplay their friendship to minimise their own involvement. Jay does so to make it look like he was the "criminal involvement" in the school that adnan turns to when he freaks out. But this is contradicted by Jay making out Adnan to be some kind of hardman who knew "a west side hitman" and also managed to blackmail book. Adnan downplays it to make it less believable that he involves Jay in the first place. I think they're both lying.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 09:12:31 am by Guz-kop »
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Offline DK

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Re: Serial - The Wire of Podcasts
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2014, 10:13:47 am »

Personally, I think just going from the telephone chats between Koenig and Adnan, Adnan is guilty. He hardly ever talked about his innocence, or being not guilty, instead he cooly analysed all the developments to refute the 'case' against him rather than shouting from the rooftops, I DID NOT KILL HEA, I'M INNOCENT. He could have been up for parole now had he come clean when caught.

I think Sarah covered this in the podcasts.  Adnan said he just wanted to answer the questions calmly, without emotion, and let others decide for themselves.  He's given up trying to convince others - he even gets annoyed when people say he seems like a nice guy and incapable of all this because it does nothing to prove his innocence.

Another thing that must be a factor is that he would likely have received some psychiatric support in prison (if he wanted it).  Their advice would likely to be to accept his situation, otherwise, literally, he will go crazy if he stays emotionally involved with the topic 100% of the day.

I don't think Adnan did it but I have no idea who did.  The involvement of Jay confuses me and I don't think he is trustworthy, but I don't think he did it either.  One thing I have been turning over is that Jay may know who murdered Hae and he was forced to implicate Adnan otherwise he or his family was at risk.

Also, if Adnan is guilty, why would he agree to being interviewed for the podcast?  If it was one last roll of the dice to get off, surely he would scream his innocence more?

The only thing I am reasonably confident of is that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Adnan.  He may have appeared the most likely, but that is not enough.