Topic: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool

[Danny_]

For me there should've been 4 penalties, two more than we got and one less than we deserved, Sturridge's second was perhaps soft, but you show me a striker in the world that wouldn't have gone down there...
And yet the ref'ing was curious.

Loved your opening post.  Just on this bit, I agree but look at what happened to Foy when he applied the rules per the letter of the law in the Chelsea game.  Clattenburg deserves a lot of credit for having the integrity to keep giving the penalties.  Most refs would turn a blind eye once they gave one which is wrong as at least 2 others were blatant. 

United got exactly what they deserved from the game.  It is just shocking how bad they were.   I didn't think that we even hit top gear yet we still had them chasing shadows for most of the game.  Their first shot on target came at 44 mins in or something.  That says it all.

I have to say that this diamond formation looks far more solid than what we were previously playing.  That's two clean sheets in a row and we don't look nearly as vulnerable at the back anymore.  That's also obviously down to playing Henderson and Allen in front of Gerrard. 

On the subject of Henderson, what a player he is becoming for us.  Yes, he misplaced a few passes on Sunday but every time the opposition had the ball, he seems to be on them harassing so that they had no time to play a decent pass and he managed to dispossess them a few times and set up breaks for us.  I think that he has the potential to become a world class player if he keeps improving.  I can't believe how much better he has gotten and he shows no signs of stopping improving.

As Gerrard said post-match, 'we dominated the middle of the park and when we do that, with the two we have up front, we always have a chance'.  Gerrard himself has been immense in the last two games and really looks like he is growing into the position.  All we need now is for him to regain his long shooting ability and we will have a version of Pirlo on our hands.  His long passing has just become incredible.  It's reminiscent of Alonso at his best.  It seems like as he ages, he has recognized that he needs to improve the aspects of his game he can since he no longer has the legs to go box to box.  His set pieces and passing have gotten so much better and more consistent and his positioning looks like it's also improving.   BR probably deserves a lot of credit since everybody, not just Gerrard, seems to be blossoming under his hand.

It's hard not to get carried away but we looked like Liverpool from the 80's on Sunday.  That was what we were like - we used to pass it about and the opposition couldn't get the ball off us.   I know it's been said before but this time, I think it really does look like we are headed right back to the top.  It's a hell of a job getting there these days, having to compete with oil baron clubs.  But, if it is possible with the players we have, I think BR will do it.  He is the best manager in the league and I am praying that we succeed this season as it takes so much pressure off.   Whatever happens, it's already been a fantastic season as CL looks pretty secure.  With 9 games left to go, dare we dream....

[Canuck33]

I'd argue all the formations worked given results and i'm not so sure Rodgers is married to the current formation, More that it suited his needs given the opposition and the players he had in form and available.

A lot I think in future will come down to opposition IMO. I don't think we'd play this way against Chelsea as it offers too much space for Hazard and Willian which is their major threat. Could see us playing similar against Tottenham and Man City though. They are really strong centrally.

I'm sure Morinho was watching and maybe he will have to adapt his style when they come to Anfield. All I'm saying is that this formation allows us to play with SAS up top AND have a solid midfield. We didn't really have that when playing 3-5-2 or the flat 4-4-2.

[DanA]

I'm sure Morinho was watching and maybe he will have to adapt his style when they come to Anfield. All I'm saying is that this formation allows us to play with SAS up top AND have a solid midfield. We didn't really have that when playing 3-5-2 or the flat 4-4-2.

I think you're right in that it's a good option, and generally better than the two options you mention. I just think Rodgers will continue to tinker as he has been doing all season.

[Canuck33]

I think you're right in that it's a good option, and generally better than the two options you mention. I just think Rodgers will continue to tinker as he has been doing all season.

That is quite possible, but I think he knows we are in a position of strength right now, especially at home. So the tinkering will be very limited, I believe. But there will be some tinkering amongst the opposition.

I just think the formation and tactics deployed in the last two games suits our personnel quite well, where others haven't to that extent. So the tinkering might be reduced to some minor tweaking, i.e. Sterling v Coutinho.

[rickardinho1]

I think the muted Liverpool celebrations was by design though. You can see some degrees of both sports psychology work and Rodgers' own personality coming through in the Liverpool players reaction

Theres every element of the result being fairly routine for this team, hence the muted celebration.

[rickardinho1]

We should, out of respect naturally, pay some attention to the significance of this result for our opponents. The Mancs are now 12 points off fourth and the team in fourth has two games in hand on them. It would take a quite remarkable turnaround to get them Champions League football, the sort of run they used to put together all the time before. And I seem to recall Moyes teams being strong towards the end of the season, although he looks a lot more rudderless in his current environs. But yeah, you can't see them getting on the money train for next season. And we know better than most what that means. Once you go Europa, well you can wake up four or five years later going, what the fuck?

All of which makes it rather sweet if it turns out that we put the final boot on their head. I'm glad Ferguson was there.

Mathematically their chances of finishing in the top 4 are 0.3%. They probably have similar probability of overturning Olympiakos and winning the CL this season too so I wouldn't worry about that

[jckliew]

Mathematically their chances of finishing in the top 4 are 0.3%. They probably have similar probability of overturning Olympiakos and winning the CL this season too so I wouldn't worry about that

Looks a bit low   

[rickardinho1]

When you consider that Kevin Grosskreutz was a major part of a Dortmund side that one two Bundesligas and made a CL final, that James Milner was a major part of a side that won an FA Cup and Premier Leauge, that Paulinho was a major part of a side that dominated the Confedetions Cup, that Sami Khedira was a major part of a side that won a La Liga title and a Copa Del Rey, that Darren Fletcher was a major part of a side that dominated the Premier League and made two Champions League finals, that Claudio Marchisio is a major part of one of the best domestic sides in Serie A history, and that Ramires is a major part of possibly our biggest title rivals, Henderson looks like less of a weak link. None of those players is appreciably better than Henderson technically.

Of all the top, top sides in the world, only those that play extreme tiki-taka (i.e. Barca and Bayern), Real Madrid (who would probably be playing Khedira in big games if he were healthy), and Man City (who have two 250k a week super-Hendersons) really play without a Henderson. To improve on what he does, you're talking about Arturo Vidal, Fernandinho, Di Maria, i.e. some of the very best midfielders in the world. Barkley could not have played the role Henderson played yesterday, and Deulofeu will never be able to. They're both obviously more talented than Jordan, and have a better chance to play the piano, but they'll always need their Hendersons to carry it, at least on a team that plays at our current intensity.

I'd like to see us bring in a more technical alternative (and to let Allen, a more technical player who does a lot of the piano carrying things too, take up more of the minutes), but I think you're underselling how important Henderson is to what we've been doing this season. Against United, he and Allen were playing one of the toughest positions in football, and the main reason you see the diamond so rarely. They had to play two positions defensively, and provide an outlet in possession, and they helped us absolutely smother United in midfield. Job well done from my point of view.

Say what you will about his technical limitations, but both him and Allen played two positions at once to perfection. They both helped their fullbacks and tracked the opposing teams' fullbacks on the wings, and also tucked inside as attacking midfielders when we had the ball, linking play smoothly between our back 5 and front 3. They were virtually mirror images of each other on the pitch, operating in similar pockets on opposite sides

[redrambler13]

I'd like to see us bring in a more technical alternative (and to let Allen, a more technical player who does a lot of the piano carrying things too, take up more of the minutes), but I think you're underselling how important Henderson is to what we've been doing this season. Against United, he and Allen were playing one of the toughest positions in football, and the main reason you see the diamond so rarely. They had to play two positions defensively, and provide an outlet in possession, and they helped us absolutely smother United in midfield. Job well done from my point of view.

In the corresponding Anfield fixture, only Hendo and Sturridge (?) were consciously making an effort to kill the tempo of the game in the second half. Some of his touches and passes helped us push up into space as a team. Sublime stuff.

On the subject of this win - the biggest takeaway for me is that we never had to break much of a sweat in achieving our target. The tiki-taka loop at the end (at around 90') made me purr with approbation. In-game management at its best.

[mercury]

Yorky has a natural disdain for the "Kuyt" type, as we all know 

Henderson always has strong all round basics - technique, vision, positioning, etc, in many ways better than Kuyt ever has had and the only thing he lacks in comparison to Kuyt is the latter's super big heart.  He is learning and will learn and improve to at the very least a very good player for us, that I have no doubt under Rodgers.   

We did give the Mancs a couple of chances / periods, as we usually do, and RvP of last year would have buried at least one of those chances.  We are not perfect but were clearly better and held our shape and composure.  The strides we've made in all aspects of the game from our home game to this away fixture vs the Mancs are the most pleasurable to see.  Would that be enough for the title?  One down, nine to go.  Next please.

[Wallingtonian]

I'm sure Morinho was watching and maybe he will have to adapt his style when they come to Anfield. All I'm saying is that this formation allows us to play with SAS up top AND have a solid midfield. We didn't really have that when playing 3-5-2 or the flat 4-4-2.

Mourinho will do what he normally does at Anfield. Five across the middle and hope to get something from a set-piece or a breakaway

[Believe]

What a great result. 3-0 at Old Trafford. Could have been five. Let that sink it for a second: Could.Have.Been.Five. At Old Trafford. In a pressure game.

As has been well discussed the progress that we have made under BR is nothing short of astonishing. Absolutely astonishing. Top scorers in the league and the current darlings of European football: a young side that plays relentless, fearless, flowing, attacking football but also increasingly has the tactical nous to manage games, grind out results and exploit weaknesses in any opposition. There won't be a single team that will want to draw us in the Champions League next season.

Not only as a Liverpool fan is this amazing, but as a football fan it's a reminder that there is still a place is an increasingly money orientated sport for proper coaching, camaraderie and the principles of the game. It's massively refreshing and BR deserves, has got  and will get a huge amount of respect for that - both inside and outside Anfield.

And so onto the game....

This was probably the consummate away performance and something that will stand us in very good stead for the inevitable foray into Europe next season. It was all about control: a measured performance of teamwork and tactical acumen designed to keep them at arms length and get what was needed - three points and a hugely significant win. That our approach and ability up front caused them to crack and degenerate (even further) into what was a disorganised, undisciplined rabble by the end was a bonus.

From the first whistle it was all about controlled aggression, hunting in packs, pressing and managing space all over the pitch - exemplified by Jon Flanagan, Joe Allen and Steven Gerrard. I don't really want to pick out any individuals but having said that, I'd like to pick out some individuals: Joe Allen and Jon Flanagan....

Think back to January 13th last year - not just my birthday, but the game that for me signified 'the end of the beginning' for Brendan Rodgers and our evolving side: a 1-2 reverse against the auld enemy and as timid a first half display as you're ever likely to see. Joe Allen was bullied in that game, make no mistake about it. We improved in the second half, our new signing Daniel Sturridge came one, scored and the rest - as they say - is history.... Fast forward 14 months to Sunday and he was a warrior - pressing, harrying, darting runs, interceptions and tackles: the complete midfield display capped off by winning the game breaking penalty.

Jon Flanagan. Fucking Jon Flanagan. Footballer. Just a shade away from being man of the match in another fearless display of aggressive, positive full back play - Liverpool's Gary Neville: clearly hates Mancs, reliable, solid and provides a decent attacking outlet. To think that we literally couldn't give him away (on loan) beggars belief, almost to the extent of his improvement under BR which testament not only to the managers coaching ability but also what can happen if you work hard and refuse to give up.

Not only are we are now back in the Champions League - not mathematically yet, not taken for granted but realistically it's done - we are also right in there for this league. We are the form team, the top goal scorers, we have the best player in the league, we have arguably the best manager in the league and we  have a confidence, a swagger and a belief that just seems unshakable. You score two, we'll score three. You score three? Ok, we'll score four. I haven't seen this about us since late 2009 and even then it seemed different. Something magical is happening and however the last nine games play out this has been an unforgettable ride.

[rickardinho1]

I'm sure Morinho was watching and maybe he will have to adapt his style when they come to Anfield. All I'm saying is that this formation allows us to play with SAS up top AND have a solid midfield. We didn't really have that when playing 3-5-2 or the flat 4-4-2.

Although the diamond worked well for the most part, we also conceded a lot of space down the wings in the last two games. In particular Shaw and Rafael had some success. If we decide to go with a diamond against Chelsea I'm sure Mourinho will be onto that like a hawk and have his fullbacks (Ivanovic in particular) bombing down the flanks to support the forward wide players. Hazard will be a good test for Johnson and Ivanovic+Schurrle on the opposite side will be a good test for Flanagan. He'll need decent help from Allen/Henderson there.

As its a home game though I'd expect the usual blitzkrieg 433 formation to kick into gear again.

[JohnM]

I don't think I have every read a more optimistic Round Table even after the thrashing of Spur's, Everton and Arsenal. This was a game of bigger importance to us mentally, all our players, staff and supporters believe we have a chance of winning the Title.

Granted United are not the same team as last year, but OT is and we out played them on their turf, tactically and more importantly we showed a desire and a belief to win not just the game but the title.

We also broke their atmosphere, they were left to sing about us more than themselves.

Not read it in this Round table, big shout out to the Travelling Kop, Well done. We need the atmosphere at Anfield to be like the Chelsea CL semi final 2005 for the remaining games of the season.

[jckliew]

Mourinho will do what he normally does at Anfield. Five across the middle and hope to get something from a set-piece or a breakaway

We will put Sakho as CF to lift high balls to by pass the midfield.   

[Yorkykopite]

the hyperbole is in full flow I see

Have you actually read the thread? There's happiness, for sure. But what reaction do you expect when Liverpool beat Man Utd 3-0 at their place? If you expect misery it means you're not enjoying your footy enough. Time to get out and find another sport.

But 'hyperbole'? No exaggerated claims are being made. The posts in this thread are pretty much in line with the muted celebrations of the team at the end of the match, which have been noted by several posters.

[Paulinjo]

What were man utd fans singing at the beginning of the match, regarding Gerrard, something like "handed transfer request..."?

[b_joseph]

.

Interesting opinions...a couple I have issue with.

The poor United side theory doesnt stand up. I think back to all the times they have come to our place, times when we have been terribly average and had a coach that was struggling. And we never, ever, got embarrassed in the way that they did on Sunday..mainly because you elevate your game in a match vs your biggest rivals and what happened beforehand is just noise.
In 94...they were 3 up on us, we were poor that year but came back. 99, 2 up on us and we came back. The level needed to go to that place or for that team to come to our place and win is beyond whatever the league table might say. So for our guys to be as professional as that is encouraging because very few of these players have ever been in a genuine title race ( even fewer if we talk about successful ones )...they are learning on the fly and thriving. Its worth getting excited about.


Defense giving up chances - Every defense does...watch Chelsea or Arsenal, two teams that have the best defenses, IMO and they still give them up. Sometimes, good players will do good things and Rooney getting past Henderson to set up RVP is just a symptom of facing good players.
They key is make sure that those moments are few and far between, which they were on Sunday and were in the 2nd half vs Soton. Nobody thinks we are the finished article and personally, I wouldnt be surprised if we have a couple new players in defense next season. But these guys, right now, are playing well together and we have a back 5 that might be settled for a while, which can only help us going forward.


Nobody is getting carried away..people are just enjoying the moment because we haven't had much to celebrate on the pitch for 5 years. A glass of water is bland but a glass of water when you are considerably thirsty is something to gush about.
Everyone knows our main expectation is top 4 and nobody is going to lose their minds if we dont win the league. But, rightly, they are dreaming about winning it because thats we do as fans. We dream and try to instill confidence in our team because of it.

[capt k]

Havent re watched the game yet, but on real time viewing {with the nerves atingling as they do in this fixture} i also thought Hendo was,  in part, poor in the 1st half., a few deft touches to release Sturridge and Suarez aside,  i felt he was "jockying players"  when he could have got a foot in, seemed to run along side players who had the ball rather than trying to take the ball off them. that may well have been instructions off the boss, it could also mean im talking out of my arse, but that was my "gut feel "watching it on telly.{he actually reminds me of Craig Johnstone , a bloody good workhorse with a not to shabby touch when the opportunity arises}
That being said, after beating that lot 3-0, at theirs, at a canter, theres no point in looking for scapegoats {and im not} just my take on it

[NaivetyinBlack]

the hyperbole is in full flow I see

every little thing becomes another brick in building an idea that people want to believe in

It's the way football should be supported. Or do you ignore the little signs of progress and believe in the end result ? Well, we're doing it on that end as well.

a game and a half ago we were outplayed for 45 minutes by Southampton, they missed their chances, before that we stuffed up against Villa they battered us for 25 minutes at our place, against West Brom complacency threw away 2 points, against Hull, and I see I post suggesting beat us at Anfield and you deserve a title - that'll be Southamptons then.......

You cannot 'expect' perfection from a team who finished 7th last season and is practically being built without the huge spending of it's competitors. There will always be blips in form. The odd result here and there. What was important was to notice if we were learning from it. Against Southampton, the tip of the diamond was giving the ball away in the first half. Changed that early in the second, enter Raheem and bang. 0-2 and game over. They never got a sniff after it.

Against Villa, the personnel was changed immediately at half time. We came back from a 2 goal deficit to get a point. Character building ? Stuff of champions ? You bet it was. Mistake realized and acted upon ? Absolutely.

West Brom ? Of course, the mistake cost us. One of the freak things that can happen to any team and it is really, really unfair that you hold it against us.

now everything BR does is brilliant and the players unbeatable - its as daft as if we'd lost a couple and the critics were out in full force asking for the lads head

You're the only hyperbole. None of us have asked for Brendan or any of the lad's head this season. There are off noises here and there about his 'personality' ( scoff ! ) but not one decent enough argument has been put against our progress. We've actually been pretty unanimous over our astonishing progress.

I appeciate its hard to keep your head when its looking so rosy but anybody with any sense would be asking for calm, not to draw conclusions from a couple of games, half a season or even a whole season if we lost a few. Yet its ok the other way round?

Progress from 7th to title winning form is to be admired, revered and applauded. We're all calm. You should have listened to Steven Gerrard after the match. Noticed how calm he was ? That's the mood with most of us here. Why isn't it yours ?

We  played a poor United side - despite the obvious talent in their ranks they were woeful, their tactics, team selection and player motivation were poor. Van Persie was absent, Mata invisible, Jones a liability. Rooney bless his cotton socks tried, really tried, in the wrong places, at the wrong times and mostly on his own. Southampton gave us a far bigger test. The joy and I nearly broke my fist punching the ground when the third went in, was more to do with beating them  than any masterclass that was handed out to what looked a mediocre team. Moyes is in a heap of trouble, not because he's a bad manager, he isn't, he's just the wrong manager for them right now.

What a rubbish, rubbish post that is. Of course they were poor. They had David freaking Moyes as their manager and an inferior team morale. Did it stop any of our players in the past from giving Fergie's side all we had ? Does it stop Everton from giving it all against us in almost every derby ? Total domination of a team which were the league champions 8 months ago, on their own pitch, where we've had a terrible recent record deserves all the plaudits it is receiving. Van Persie was absent as we marked him well. Mata was invisible as Flanno had a great game. Jones a liability as he couldn't deal with Allen's movement in the box. Give credit where it's due.

Our defence still gifts up chances, proper chances, its not the finished article, our goals against demostrates that, if you can't see it with your own eyes. A couple of clean sheets doesn't change that.

How many chances did our defense 'gift' yesterday ? Flanno and Glen were as solid as they come and Skrtel imo had his best game of the season. Agger was a bit out of position a couple of times but as I said before, it's a team in progress. You won't get perfection overnight. And shouldn't expect it without the big bucks of City and Chelsea. We're building it. Gradually, yet at an astonishing pace. Acknowledge that.

We're still level with Arsenal, behind Chelsea and City have those games in hand. We can win the title but we'll do it by taking one game at a time, not believing the hype, not getting carried away.

Finally, something we agree upon. And it seemed Brendan and Gerrard agree with you too as they said the exact same thing post match. As for us fans, we can get as excited as we want. We've got an amazing team who is scoring goals for fun. I have seen us play since the Roy Evans teams and for all the exceptional individuals they had, this team is more cohesive. Has a better rapport with the manager, is a better combination of youth and experience and has already scored more goals.

This season has been a joy and an absolute privilege. Something the most optimistic and knowledgeable of us never predicted. Title challenge while scoring more than Man City ? I would laughed in the face of anyone who told me we would do this at the start of August. These are exciting times. Long may they continue.

[McrRed]

A couple of key moments in the game for me:
Gerrard's header vs fellaini. The ref bottled it, saw the blood and gave a yellow...it was an accident but not even a foul. At that point I thought, "here we go. Ref bias at OT once again."
They couldn't do anything with it, we brushed it aside and Clattenburg played on. (Incidentally, I often wonder what kind of messages the refs get from the 4th official through their earpiece - oops, mark, that wasn't a foul...oooops, mark, should've been a pen there, ooooooops, mark, etc etc)

Gerrard's 1st celebration said game still on. Best captain moment for me since Istanbul.
The 2nd celebration said yep, they're done, let's enjoys ourselves!

And finally, I loved the untied fans singing 20 times. Bless 'em. They've been soooo cocky, so arrogant for so long. They really had a go at confident, mocking humility. For fifteen minutes. It ended up becoming a death-knell for their team. That song, more than anything else in the match for me signified the passing of the baton.

Meanwhile, back in the world of the living, we are Liverpool, tra la la la la!

[MNAA]

At the final whistle, the players calmly filed off, Rodgers shook Moyes by the hand, and that was that. This is business as usual with the new Liverpool. It all feels a bit British Cycling, doesn't it? A scary thought.

We had played much better before. But on Sunday we're so business like. Organized. Focused. Single minded. The Red Machine is back in full flow.

[ElstonGunn]

the hyperbole is in full flow I see

every little thing becomes another brick in building an idea that people want to believe in

a game and a half ago we were outplayed for 45 minutes by Southampton, they missed their chances, before that we stuffed up against Villa they battered us for 25 minutes at our place, against West Brom complacency threw away 2 points, against Hull, and I see I post suggesting beat us at Anfield and you deserve a title - that'll be Southamptons then.......

Thank for reminding us that we are not, in fact, Bayern Munich. We all got confused.

Seriously, Chelsea just lost to that team we "stuffed up against" by merely drawing with, and have drawn with the likes of West Brom at home (very fortunately) and West Ham. City have also lost to that team we "stuffed up against," not to mention the absolute worst side in the league. Arsenal have lost games 6-3 and 5-1. Yeah, we're not perfect--and try to show me where anyone said we were--but we're as good as anyone in England. Don't see much to be negative about with that.

[Yorkykopite]

Having just seen a replay of Steven Gerrard's aerial challenge on Fellaini I wanted to post another word.

'Fantastic' ought to do it. But since Stevie picked up a yellow a little bit more needs to be said. Fellaini was left with a bloody face and that's unfortunate. It was unfortunate for Stevie since all that red sort of compelled the referee to re-visit the challenge and get his card out. It's unfortunate for Fellaini since it obviously must have hurt.

However, the challenge was not just legitimate. It was beautiful. Fellaini wasn't hit by a flying elbow. He was hit by Gerrard's head as he followed through after smashing the ball. It must have hurt both players in fact, not that you'd know it from the way Gerrard simply carried on (the ball was still in play of course). The bravery in the challenge was all Gerrard's by the way. It's one thing to launch yourself vertically in order to head a ball. It's quite another to leap forward at an angle. First of all those leaps are harder to time. Secondly you often have to bash your way through an elbow before you even get to the ball. Gerrard's leap was therefore brave and perfectly timed. Nor did he stint on the header, which would have been forgivable. He didn't sink his head into his shoulders as some players do in those circumstances. He went for it 100 percent. Therefore he hit the ball extremely hard.

Everything about the header was perfect. It was text-book in fact.

Fellaini? It's not nice to see a footballer with a bloody face. But I couldn't help thinking there was something ironic about him being the one with the tissue-paper all over his forehead. Fellaini, after all, has made quite a career out of elbowing opponents when it comes to challenging for a high ball.  This time he thought he was up against wee Raheem Sterling and that made him all cocky. He got big Stevie Gerrard instead and now he's in stitches.

We all are.

[Yorkshire-Red]

Gerrard himself has been immense in the last two games and really looks like he is growing into the position.  All we need now is for him to regain his long shooting ability and we will have a version of Pirlo on our hands.

Sadly, I think that's unlikely. With the groin problems Gerrard has had in the last few years it would be far too risky to blast the ball 100%. He said recently the injuries were career-threatening, so it would be madness to tempt fate like that.

[MichaelA]

He got big Stevie Gerrard instead and now he's in stitches.

Punchline applied with surgical precision. *doffs cap*


I'd also like to thank the various posters who have taken Vulmea to task for his teeth grinding negativity - lighten up and enjoy it mate!

[fowlermagic]

Once we win the battle in the middle of the park it makes everything else that bit easier, whether it be defending or attack so all of a sudden our backline looks a lot more secure due to the stronger first line of security we have in the middle. Secondly the lads up front are getting some great service from SG, Henderson & Allen and we are reaping the goals.

In regards to SG's yellow that card should be rescinded as in no way was that a yellow. A good to honest hard battle in the air and one came out a lot worse for wear as he decided to contend for a header with a warrior.

[longtimered]

The performance probably worth more for what it does for us mentally.Thought we were not as impressive/ruthless in possession as some of the press headlines would have us believe.
Very impressed with Skirtl and how comfortable our captain appears-now a real leader and not looking like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Very much now in the camp of one game at a time but we obviously have a real chance.

[wige]

It felt like a changing of the guard, and the 15 minute dirge from the Stretford End just served to underline that for me.

Nail on head. My thoughts at the time summed up perfectly.

So many things about it, Gerrard OWNING that pitch. All the pens. Fergie's face. Our team's celebrations (team includes Rogers by definition) and a switch from their fan's to singing about history from we're gonna win the league.

Hope in years to come it feels exactly the same.

[wige]

Thank for reminding us that we are not, in fact, Bayern Munich. We all got confused.

Would love this team to have a crack at them though.

[CHOPPER]

I'm with the level headed one, ye giddy bunch a'c*nts.

[Vulmea]

It's the way football should be supported. Or do you ignore the little signs of progress and believe in the end result ? Well, we're doing it on that end as well.

You cannot 'expect' perfection from a team who finished 7th last season and is practically being built without the huge spending of it's competitors. There will always be blips in form. The odd result here and there. What was important was to notice if we were learning from it. Against Southampton, the tip of the diamond was giving the ball away in the first half. Changed that early in the second, enter Raheem and bang. 0-2 and game over. They never got a sniff after it.

Against Villa, the personnel was changed immediately at half time. We came back from a 2 goal deficit to get a point. Character building ? Stuff of champions ? You bet it was. Mistake realized and acted upon ? Absolutely.

West Brom ? Of course, the mistake cost us. One of the freak things that can happen to any team and it is really, really unfair that you hold it against us.

You're the only hyperbole. None of us have asked for Brendan or any of the lad's head this season. There are off noises here and there about his 'personality' ( scoff ! ) but not one decent enough argument has been put against our progress. We've actually been pretty unanimous over our astonishing progress.

Progress from 7th to title winning form is to be admired, revered and applauded. We're all calm. You should have listened to Steven Gerrard after the match. Noticed how calm he was ? That's the mood with most of us here. Why isn't it yours ?

What a rubbish, rubbish post that is. Of course they were poor. They had David freaking Moyes as their manager and an inferior team morale. Did it stop any of our players in the past from giving Fergie's side all we had ? Does it stop Everton from giving it all against us in almost every derby ? Total domination of a team which were the league champions 8 months ago, on their own pitch, where we've had a terrible recent record deserves all the plaudits it is receiving. Van Persie was absent as we marked him well. Mata was invisible as Flanno had a great game. Jones a liability as he couldn't deal with Allen's movement in the box. Give credit where it's due.

How many chances did our defense 'gift' yesterday ? Flanno and Glen were as solid as they come and Skrtel imo had his best game of the season. Agger was a bit out of position a couple of times but as I said before, it's a team in progress. You won't get perfection overnight. And shouldn't expect it without the big bucks of City and Chelsea. We're building it. Gradually, yet at an astonishing pace. Acknowledge that.

Finally, something we agree upon. And it seemed Brendan and Gerrard agree with you too as they said the exact same thing post match. As for us fans, we can get as excited as we want. We've got an amazing team who is scoring goals for fun. I have seen us play since the Roy Evans teams and for all the exceptional individuals they had, this team is more cohesive. Has a better rapport with the manager, is a better combination of youth and experience and has already scored more goals.

This season has been a joy and an absolute privilege. Something the most optimistic and knowledgeable of us never predicted. Title challenge while scoring more than Man City ? I would laughed in the face of anyone who told me we would do this at the start of August. These are exciting times. Long may they continue.

thanks for the post, as you've be kind enough to spend time replying I'll try to return the favour

There aren't any rules on how people support, least I hope not or half the main stand will  be out on their ears, moaning bastards.

Lets assume for a second that Southampton had gone in at half time leading or Fulham hadn't gifted us a penalty in the last minute or if we had lost to Villa having been routed for 25 minutes, 2- 0 didn't flatter them at that point. Would we still be so convinced of progress, so astounded by our progress? Yes, this ignores the reality of what happened but football is fickle, without ifs and buts and maybes we wouldn't have much to discuss and its not too big a stretch to think any or all of those things could easily have occured.

Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

I'm not trying to be teeth grindingly negative, I'm just trying to use a different lens, a different perspective, to try and judge progress from a wider view. At least thats what I'm trying to do and clearly failing miserably.

 I haven't suggested people asked for BR's head. The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

In terms of United you make my point for me. They gave Moyes nothing, no fight, no belief, no intelligence - in those circumstances how good a performance did it take from us to defeat them. We fully deserved to win, we didn't have to go through the gears, the game itself was scrappy. We played as well as we had to and if we'd needed more, we may have delivered it but I didn't think it was a complete performance or a superb defensive display or any of the other things suggested in this thread, we were better than a poor team, at least thats how it looked to me. It did not rate up there with any number of away performances in the past when we've beaten far far better sides and not given them a single clear cut chance. I thought we've played better against City , Arsenal and Chelsea in the last couple of years and lost. The thing that sets this apart is the context - the fact it was United - replace that name with Newcastle or another mmid table club and would it be seen as so meaningful and so evocative

Jones barging Allen as he ran away from goal less than a minute after half time was a brain fart nothing more. Mata hasn't been marked by Flanno in every game and he's been dire. Van Persie of 1 or 2 years ago would have scored a couple - he looked a shadow of what he was, nowt to do with how we marked him, we didn't mark him for the free header in the 6 yard box he put 6 yards wide. They were dire.

[L666KOP]

After reading the post by Vulmea I'm worried we may not get top 4.

[Kadian]

the hyperbole is in full flow I see

every little thing becomes another brick in building an idea that people want to believe in

a game and a half ago we were outplayed for 45 minutes by Southampton, they missed their chances, before that we stuffed up against Villa they battered us for 25 minutes at our place, against West Brom complacency threw away 2 points, against Hull, and I see I post suggesting beat us at Anfield and you deserve a title - that'll be Southamptons then.......

 now everything BR does is brilliant and the players unbeatable - its as daft as if we'd lost a couple and the critics were out in full force asking for the lads head

I appeciate its hard to keep your head when its looking so rosy but anybody with any sense would be asking for calm, not to draw conclusions from a couple of games, half a season or even a whole season if we lost a few. Yet its ok the other way round?

We  played a poor United side - despite the obvious talent in their ranks they were woeful, their tactics, team selection and player motivation were poor. Van Persie was absent, Mata invisible, Jones a liability. Rooney bless his cotton socks tried, really tried, in the wrong places, at the wrong times and mostly on his own. Southampton gave us a far bigger test. The joy and I nearly broke my fist punching the ground when the third went in, was more to do with beating them  than any masterclass that was handed out to what looked a mediocre team. Moyes is in a heap of trouble, not because he's a bad manager, he isn't, he's just the wrong manager for them right now.

I thought it was a scrappy game, possession was tossed away on a regular basis by both sides, neither Suarez or Sturridge created much until well after half time. Their forwards squandered the few chances they had. Van Persie missed a great chance with that header inside the 6 yard box. A goal for them who knows, the fact they didn't deserve one doesn't matter. Goals, as the cliche goes, change games. They didn't score, we deserved our win and it was as comfortable a game as I can remember.

Keeping two up top I thought was key to us winning the game, they couldn't cope with it - few can. I thought it was more significant than the diamond. Very brave of BR. Rafael had too much space at times and only used it well the once. Sterling had been tried against Southampton - was it IN BR's mind to use it again, you have to think it was, it worked very well for us. Is it going to be a tactic every away game?

Henderson and Allen provided the graft to allow Gerrard to dominate, its like a quarterback with a couple of lads to keep him safe. Henderson, the new Dirk Kuyt,  being underrated by Yorky is almost a badge of honour in terms of what you bring to the team off the ball, mentally and physicaly. Sterling has improved massively.

Its not just teams that aren't afraid anymore, neither are the refs it seems, another crack in the MU armour? How many points did Fergie get for his side with 20 years of intimidation of the FA and the officials? Another reason why Moyes has such a tough gig and why united have fallen so far.

Our defence still gifts up chances, proper chances, its not the finished article, our goals against demostrates that, if you can't see it with your own eyes. A couple of clean sheets doesn't change that.

We're still level with Arsenal, behind Chelsea and City have those games in hand. We can win the title but we'll do it by taking one game at a time, not believing the hype, not getting carried away. Cardiff away will be hard, not on paper, but proper hard they aren't as good as us, but we may have to win the battle first before the quality will tell. We've failed to deliver before after good results, especially away from home. The next game is the biggest. Take 3 more points, thats all that matters, concentrate on what we can do. One more game, win that.

anyway enough of trying to be reasonable - miserable - contrary - bloody great win.

Haha.

We got Mr.Contrarion over here.

There is no hyperbole. I don't see many going over the top. Arsenal post chat deservedly was lauded as a masterclass, but this is seen as just a good performance.

Say what you want about how bad they are, and especially their home record, but we were the first team to beat them at their patch by 2 goals. In fact we won by 3. Chelsea and Arsenal can't say the same.

[Yorkykopite]

After reading the post by Vulmea I'm worried we may not get top 4.

I'm worried we'll get relegated.

(Mind you, never seen so many 'ifs' in a single post before  )

[b_joseph]

Lets assume for a second that Southampton had gone in at half time leading or Fulham hadn't gifted us a penalty in the last minute or if we had lost to Villa having been routed for 25 minutes, 2- 0 didn't flatter them at that point. Would we still be so convinced of progress, so astounded by our progress? Yes, this ignores the reality of what happened but football is fickle, without ifs and buts and maybes we wouldn't have much to discuss and its not too big a stretch to think any or all of those things could easily have occured.

And by the same token, what happens if Suarez is awarded a penalty at Chelsea? What happens if Suarez is awarded the penalty against Arsenal in the cup? What happens if Mignolet doesnt make a wild error at the end of the first half against City? What happens if Toure doesnt have a brainfart vs WBA?

It works both ways...things go for you and against you. Thats why you play 38 games because it balances out those high points and low ones.

Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

Consistent as in recent seasons?

City are on pace to win more points this season than they did last season.
Chelsea are on pace to earn more points this season than any of their seasons since 2010..yes, 2010.
Spurs are on pace for 69 points....near enough to what they earned last year.

We are on pace to get 80+ points. It has nothing to do with anyone else, our points total is something to get excited about without even looking at the fortunes of anyone else.
And its not just you, the media are on this fucking train as well. Acting like it will be early 70's to win the league, when in reality, it will probably be 85+...which is always a good total.

[Corkboy]

I can see Vulmea's point, to an extent and his Desiderata plea to treat Triumph and Disaster as twin impostors. Our success has turned on a few incidents but football always does. That fucker Macheda's goal from a few years back springs to mind, and where is he now? Where I think the reaction is coming from is his apparent reluctance to enjoy the fine football and great results while we have them.

[Mutton Geoff]

I'm worried we'll get relegated.

(Mind you, never seen so many 'ifs' in a single post before  )

We needed a Ying to go with all our Yangs, or is it this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Xfiw0sEcY

any excuse for this one

[Kadian]

thanks for the post, as you've be kind enough to spend time replying I'll try to return the favour

There aren't any rules on how people support, least I hope not or half the main stand will  be out on their ears, moaning bastards.

Lets assume for a second that Southampton had gone in at half time leading or Fulham hadn't gifted us a penalty in the last minute or if we had lost to Villa having been routed for 25 minutes, 2- 0 didn't flatter them at that point. Would we still be so convinced of progress, so astounded by our progress? Yes, this ignores the reality of what happened but football is fickle, without ifs and buts and maybes we wouldn't have much to discuss and its not too big a stretch to think any or all of those things could easily have occured.

Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

I'm not trying to be teeth grindingly negative, I'm just trying to use a different lens, a different perspective, to try and judge progress from a wider view. At least thats what I'm trying to do and clearly failing miserably.

 I haven't suggested people asked for BR's head. The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

In terms of United you make my point for me. They gave Moyes nothing, no fight, no belief, no intelligence - in those circumstances how good a performance did it take from us to defeat them. We fully deserved to win, we didn't have to go through the gears, the game itself was scrappy. We played as well as we had to and if we'd needed more, we may have delivered it but I didn't think it was a complete performance or a superb defensive display or any of the other things suggested in this thread, we were better than a poor team, at least thats how it looked to me. It did not rate up there with any number of away performances in the past when we've beaten far far better sides and not given them a single clear cut chance. I thought we've played better against City , Arsenal and Chelsea in the last couple of years and lost. The thing that sets this apart is the context - the fact it was United - replace that name with Newcastle or another mmid table club and would it be seen as so meaningful and so evocative

Jones barging Allen as he ran away from goal less than a minute after half time was a brain fart nothing more. Mata hasn't been marked by Flanno in every game and he's been dire. Van Persie of 1 or 2 years ago would have scored a couple - he looked a shadow of what he was, nowt to do with how we marked him, we didn't mark him for the free header in the 6 yard box he put 6 yards wide. They were dire.

I genuinely can't believe what i've read here. So many 'if' permutations in this post, it's just plain lunacy.

How in the world can someone have your way of thought at a time like this? Do you like pain? Is happiness the devil to you?

[Yorkykopite]

We needed a Ying to go with all our Yangs, or is it this ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Xfiw0sEcY

any excuse for this one

I want to hear the Kop singing that v the Rokermen.