Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 2 V Aston Villa 2

[Draex]

Gerrard and Lucas/Allen would have been ok as well, as illustrated in the 2nd half.

Not true for me, Villa visably tired pretty quickly in the second half. Lucas and Gerrard for me are too static and laboured for a midfield duo for any side with top 4 aspirations.

[steveeastend]

Because we would be outnumbered in the MF with our anchoring DM a 33 year old player with a lot of miles on him and who can no longer hare around like he used to be able to?

In hindsight it's easy to say. I thought Gerrard looked promising in the holding role against Stoke. A performance like the one in this first half was not to be expected..

[robgomm]

Allen-Henderson/Gerrard with Coutinho in front or some such variation is another option. Big reason we need another wide attacker is to play Coutinho infield and if we press higher it may not expose as easily his weakness at tracking back (a weakness more pronoucned at left wing anyway as he drifts infield).

[Rohit]

Funny how things work but I though Henderson's selection in a midfield 2 was more of a problem than Gerrard's selection. He got caught beyond the play too many times when the ball went up to Benteke.

Let's not forget we have been overrun with Lucas and Gerrard in there together before and the comments have been because Lucas gets no help.

That's not a criticism on Henderson, as for me he is pretty much an attacking player for us now.

Totally agree with you on Hendo, felt he left stevie stranded in midfield far too often. Its no surprise when lucas came on he was less panicked with the ball and better positionally on the ball.

[peachybum]

Is there a tendency to hit it longer when Sturridge plays or is that me?

There's a need to hit it longer more often with two up front. Because we have less players in midfield providing options/angles to retain possession in and around the half way line. I don't think its specific to Sturridge. I'm sure if Suarez was out and Sturridge up front on his own in a 433 then we'd see the usual patient build up from the back.

[007.lankyguy]

If we're going to be playing Suarez and Sturridge up front, we may have to get used to the fact that our midfield will be open, particularly the way Rodgers likes to set us up. Suarez and Sturridge don't condense the space in midfield when we're defending and we can be left very open because of that, especially when you have Coutinho (not a great defender positionally), Henderson (who lacks intelligence sometimes) and then have Gerrard isolated in midfield.

I thought Lambert was very clever in that he changed to a 4-3-1-2/4-4-2 diamond and pressed us more aggressively than we were expecting. They completely exposed us in midfield, as well as pushing Suarez and Sturridge further away from goal. We don't play compact at all, especially with Suarez and Sturridge. That's partly down to a lack of collective ability defensively - our backline's natural reaction, almost like a reflex, is to drop off. Rodgers clearly doesn't work on organising our backline to push up and condense space. And it's not just the defence; we just don't move as a team at all really. So then it depends on how we approach each individual game and the trade-offs we have. Against Villa we started off imbalanced and open, which was exposed by them playing aggressively and fairly high up, then switched to a rough 3-4-1-2 and eventually got the balance better in the second half when Lucas came on and we switched the triangle in midfield.

However I think we're still far too reliant on individuals in midfield and for me, if we're still doing that and we're still open there because collectively we don't control that area, then we're going to have to go the other way and completely flood that area with players. Right now, I'm not adverse to us playing a diamond midfield there, like Villa did - Gerrard in the middle, Allen and Henderson either side of him and Coutinho just in front, behind Suarez and Sturridge

[spider-neil]

If we're going to be playing Suarez and Sturridge up front, we may have to get used to the fact that our midfield will be open, particularly the way Rodgers likes to set us up.

I disagree, I think three central midfielders can form a platform that allows SAS to perform safe in the knowledge there is a wall behind them if they lose the ball.

[robgomm]

There's a need to hit it longer more often with two up front. Because we have less players in midfield providing options/angles to retain possession in and around the half way line. I don't think its specific to Sturridge. I'm sure if Suarez was out and Sturridge up front on his own in a 433 then we'd see the usual patient build up from the back.

That's probably true, although I think were more impressive in our attacking play with Suarez up front on his own than Sturridge early season. Though that was also down to it being early season and we were grinding results to get a good start.

[peachybum]

In hindsight it's easy to say. I thought Gerrard looked promising in the holding role against Stoke. A performance like the one in this first half was not to be expected..

You can't compare the two performances though. Against Stoke he looked promising holding behind Henderson and Lucas in a '1-2' midfield. First half against Villa he played alongside Henderson and without that extra body and being able to sit off a few yards he was exposed. I'm positive that Gerrard can play the role he did against Stoke and play it very well. The first half against Villa showed he probably can't play in a midfield two anymore especially when the opposition are playing with three against them.

[Mighty_Red]

Right so let's start of with the things we (and Brendan) have learnt from the 1st half (or probably should already know):

- Stevie is not the athlete he was 10 years ago but is still prone to losing his positional discipline at times (yes we have known this for years). Since we only had a midfield two, wasn't it his job to stay back and let Hendo go forward? Not sure what he was doing going past the half way line. That probably was the reason he couldn't quite track the runs from Weiiman. He still offers us a great range of passing and has been very good at set-pieces, pens etc so the solution is still keeping the midfield 3 in tact. Even if he is asked to stay deep and allow Hendo & Allen (in the absence of Lucas) to go forward, they will still do their defensive duties and press the opposition (as Brendan wants)

- The other benefit of the midfield 3 is to allow the full backs to get forward and attack. With so many attack-minded players in our team we did not need attack-minded full backs (with only 2 CMs). Unfortunately, both of our full backs are poor defensively, attack-minded and also off form. Johnson leaving gaps contributed to the first goal where Toure was outrun with no support, and he should've let Mignolet deal with the ball and stayed close to Benteke. This will only be solved when Johnson is put under pressure to keep his place, Enrique comes back, we buy some quality, or a mixture of the three.

- The defence as a whole is playing poorly and needs urgent attention. Getting the FBs to perform will help but we also have to cut out the silly errors.

- SASAS AND Coutinho is probably too many attackers, one needs to be on the bench ready to come on later.

The solutions? In the short term, we stick with 4-3-3 and if Sturridge plays, then we should be on the left, just like against Stoke where he still linked up well with Luis. FBs are a massive problem but hopefully this will ease.

[steveeastend]

You can't compare the two performances though. Against Stoke he looked promising holding behind Henderson and Lucas in a '1-2' midfield. First half against Villa he played alongside Henderson and without that extra body and being able to sit off a few yards he was exposed. I'm positive that Gerrard can play the role he did against Stoke and play it very well. The first half against Villa showed he probably can't play in a midfield two anymore especially when the opposition are playing with three against them.

That's all well and good but Gerrard is not Jay Spearing, with all due respect,  in his first season needing players around him to remind him to drop back between the center backs and get the behind the ball while playing it save from the back.

Rewatch this first half and you will notice that Gerrard almost single-handedly caused the turmoil in our play as he was roaming around the pitch as it was 2003 in a cup game against some league one team.

Against Stoke, he did all that and I am pretty sure that if he would have concentrated on just that Villa wouldn't get anything from this first half. Villa wasn't so strong, we were playing without a holding midfielder for the entire first half of the game and nobody can tell me Gerrard wasn't aware of what his job should have been. Actually I am still scratching my head in disbelieve what he was thinking as you would assume that any player to concentrate on playing it save first and foremost in a new holding role on his own.

There were a lot of players having quiet games as well but the abolute minimum you could ask of a player would be to play in the given position first and foremost. For sure it's been not only Gerrards fault but he didn't do this AT ALL and for that, this first half must have been the worst I've seen him play....Roaming around like a retired legend in his testimonial or legends game in post season..

[justsean]

I looked at the match stats on the official site. When I had both teams starters showing, I could only locate 10 LFC players. I was, like, where's Sterling? Once I removed the AVFC players from the graphic, he 'appeared'. Amazingly enough, there was one AVFC player (#23, Bertrand) whose average position over the entire match effectively coincided with that of Sterling.  Amazingly enough, there was also Delph (#16) who was very nearby in terms of average field position over the match.

Glen Johnson became our RCB after we switched to a back 3. Yes, we did switch to back 3. I didn't notice it live, but then Lee Dixon mentioned it (live co-commentator on NBCSN) and then Gerrard mentioned it during his post-match interview. His 'average position' graph clearly demonstrates it, as well. Therefore, attacking down our right-wing was not much of an option, even though Sterling had an excellent game and Gerrard found him a couple of times with nice long diagonal balls.

Thanks for that.

I noticed the back 3 thing for a while in the first half, but not as much in the second. Sterling was basically man marked by Bertrand the entire game is what you're saying? Interesting. Pretty much every attack down the left resulted in nothing for us, or at best the odd corner. I was disappointed we didn't change that approach when it was clear we were getting no joy with Cissokho venturing forward.

[Yorkykopite]

Agree with everything in your post. Bouncing back will be a lot more difficult though this time,  with the current issue in center midfield and our upcoming fixture list.

Well I wrote that before I realised how badly injured Lucas was. Other than Suarez, Lucas has been our best performer this season. No surprise there. There's been a theory that he's never quite matched his performances of 18 months ago. That he's slower than he was. Crap really. He's been every bit as good. He stands out less for one reason - Rodgers has built a better team than the ones Lucas used to play in under Hodgson and Kenny. We're not as reliant on him. Simple as that.

Having said that he's still an extremely important player for Liverpool and we'll have a job on winning games without him. I hope Brendan looks to the transfer market now. 

[Sangria]

Well I wrote that before I realised how badly injured Lucas was. Other than Suarez, Lucas has been our best performer this season. No surprise there. There's been a theory that he's never quite matched his performances of 18 months ago. That he's slower than he was. Crap really. He's been every bit as good. He stands out less for one reason - Rodgers has built a better team than the ones Lucas used to play in under Hodgson and Kenny. We're not as reliant on him. Simple as that.

Having said that he's still an extremely important player for Liverpool and we'll have a job on winning games without him. I hope Brendan looks to the transfer market now. 

We're better suited to building the midfield out of interchangeable building blocks rather than splitting the team into 2 halves and relying on Lucas as the only one in the squad who can tie them together. But I'd be happier if we had a few more building blocks. Piano carrying is a much underrated job.

[Livo.85]

A lot of good points made in this thread but I feel it raises more questions than answers.
Sacrificing Suarez/Sturridge in a wide role. Lack of output from Cissokho on our left affecting our balance.
Johnson lost his athleticism to play wingback? Lucas out & the Gerrard conundrum.
So I have tried to think outside the box a little while staying within the realms of reality going forward short term until Agger & Enrique are available.


                                              Mignolet
                                     
                                Johnson   Skrtel     Sakho
               
                     Sterling     Gerrard        Allen      Henderson
                                             
                                             Coutinho
                                     
                                   Suarez             Sturridge

So can that team work? What are the weaknesses? Do the strengths outweigh them or am I being daft?

[killer-heels]

A lot of good points made in this thread but I feel it raises more questions than answers.
Sacrificing Suarez/Sturridge in a wide role. Lack of output from Cissokho on our left affecting our balance.
Johnson lost his athleticism to play wingback? Lucas out & the Gerrard conundrum.
So I have tried to think outside the box a little while staying within the realms of reality going forward short term until Agger & Enrique are available.


                                              Mignolet
                                     
                                Johnson   Skrtel     Sakho
               
                     Sterling     Gerrard        Allen      Henderson
                                             
                                             Coutinho
                                     
                                   Suarez             Sturridge

So can that team work? What are the weaknesses? Do the strengths outweigh them or am I being daft?

Johnson doesn't have the same intensity to his game at full back. Being so lax as he has been, putting him as right sided centre back would be risky.

[GBF]

(not going to say, I told you so that Villa would have caused us problem) but there is some sort of a trend with LFC this year where we play badly/draw/lose after winning 2-3 consecutive match (specially if there is one of them is considered as a harder than usual one). 

After a small series of wins, we (players, manager, fans) seems to get cocky then we shoot ourselves in the foot.  Against Villa, the players started the game as if they would just turn up and pick the 3pts and the manager thought it was a good time to start experimenting.

I hope we go back to our usual system and keep it simple.  We have a decent team but sometime we make life more difficult than needed with strange systems and weird rotations

[steveeastend]

A lot of good points made in this thread but I feel it raises more questions than answers.
Sacrificing Suarez/Sturridge in a wide role. Lack of output from Cissokho on our left affecting our balance.
Johnson lost his athleticism to play wingback? Lucas out & the Gerrard conundrum.
So I have tried to think outside the box a little while staying within the realms of reality going forward short term until Agger & Enrique are available.


                                              Mignolet
                                     
                                Johnson   Skrtel     Sakho
               
                     Sterling     Gerrard        Allen      Henderson
                                             
                                             Coutinho
                                     
                                   Suarez             Sturridge

So can that team work? What are the weaknesses? Do the strengths outweigh them or am I being daft?

Interesting team. I think it's a good one, probably Henderson could find himself into trouble in this position but other than that I think it's  good..

[Livo.85]

Johnson doesn't have the same intensity to his game at full back. Being so lax as he has been, putting him as right sided centre back would be risky.

Yet Rodgers put him there against Villa & he wasn't a liability. I get your point though but I think if he just focuses on defending 101 without the burden of linking up play it could be good for him. Better option than Kolo IMO.

[n00bert]

That's all well and good but Gerrard is not Jay Spearing, with all due respect,  in his first season needing players around him to remind him to drop back between the center backs and get the behind the ball while playing it save from the back.

Rewatch this first half and you will notice that Gerrard almost single-handedly caused the turmoil in our play as he was roaming around the pitch as it was 2003 in a cup game against some league one team.

Against Stoke, he did all that and I am pretty sure that if he would have concentrated on just that Villa wouldn't get anything from this first half. Villa wasn't so strong, we were playing without a holding midfielder for the entire first half of the game and nobody can tell me Gerrard wasn't aware of what his job should have been. Actually I am still scratching my head in disbelieve what he was thinking as you would assume that any player to concentrate on playing it save first and foremost in a new holding role on his own.

There were a lot of players having quiet games as well but the abolute minimum you could ask of a player would be to play in the given position first and foremost. For sure it's been not only Gerrards fault but he didn't do this AT ALL and for that, this first half must have been the worst I've seen him play....Roaming around like a retired legend in his testimonial or legends game in post season..

That's my view on the game as well.

Personally don't think that they 4-4-2 setup was to blame, it was having Gerrard in the DM role without adequate protection. So yes, he did get the tactics wrong but I think it's more about the individual player not being able to play a particular position that was the bigger problem.

Shifting back to a 4-3-3 with 1-2 made us look so much more threatening even with Gerrard in the holding position so even with him in the deep lying midfield position he's OK as long as he has the protection in front of him.

Like many have said, credit must go to Lambert because he set them up brilliantly. Both Skrtel and Toure couldn't deal with Agbonlohor and Benteke and Weimann's movement off the ball also created a fair bit of stress.

[Livo.85]

Interesting team. I think it's a good one, probably Henderson could find himself into trouble in this position but other than that I think it's  good..

Thanks. He has played the role before...sort of. RWB & LM. Doesn't shirk his defensive responsibility & would be better linking up play than Cissokho.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

As wrong as we got it, tactically, you really do have to hand it to Villa for the way they went about their business, especially first half. Jesus, at one point it actually reminded me of the time we played the mancs that night when they were flying. 1994 I think it was, the 3-3, two from Clough and one from Ruddock. That was the first time I truly realised they had arrived and were here to stay, and that we really were broken. It left a scar, even though we fought back for the point, it knocked me for six.

I remember standing on the kop thinking “fucking hell” at the speed the whole united team broke on us and it was very strange and very unexpected to see Villa doing something similar to us nearly 20 years on. Especially given the respective form of both sides this season. But unlike then, I am not worried for the future, I’m not entering a long dark tunnel; I’m leaving it, at fucking last, I, we are leaving it. We will do well to finish 4th this season and though I won’t celebrate it for anything other than what it is, I will be made up with it because we are getting stronger all the time, we are getting back to where we know we belong.

That is not an admission of how far we’ve fallen or how low our expectations have sunk, rather a healthy dose of reality, from which we are building. With a few obvious and simply glorious exceptions, the past 24 years has been a bit, well, shit. False dawn after false dawn, we refused to realise what was going on around us before it was too late. Blinded by the success that went before, we missed the boat and woke up dripping wet. We’ve been playing catch up ever since. But the long wait is almost over I feel and I reckon this season will be the one we will look back on and point to.

We are of course a little way off from being the real deal, but only a little. You can already see the intention and desire to win and win well from the off, regardless of who we face. Those two games against City and Chelsea could have very easily have gone in our favour on another day especially if we’d have had Sturridge back and if had of won those, how different the table would look now. That’s how tight things are, that’s how close we are, that’s how much Brendan has achieved. And it will only improve from here. Odd occasions like Villa at home aside.

It is at this point I realise this has not been a post about the Villa game as intended and a reminder to myself as to why I don’t post in such threads. Silly person.

[KillieRed]

You saw the game right? Gerrard completely lost his man for the goal.

I wrote this in the post-match whine thread, but i truly believe that Gerrard does not have the instincts or anticipation to play as a defender/DM.

His talents are better suited as an attacking player. I don`t have the tactical knowledge to tell you where he would play in the team right now, but I think we can all agree that Coutinho perhaps needs a break and is certainly more suited to playing as an inside attacking player rather than out wide. I think Stevie could be his competitor for that proposed position, and that would not be the end of the world.

Allen or Henderson need to play as the holding midfielder if that`s what we are going to have. Even Kolo Toure may be an option if not utilised in a 3 CB formation.

[LiverBirdKop]

Yet Rodgers put him there against Villa & he wasn't a liability. I get your point though but I think if he just focuses on defending 101 without the burden of linking up play it could be good for him. Better option than Kolo IMO.

He wasn't a liability? I would think someone who's been as lazy as he has, who's been disinterested as he has, who can't prevent a cross, or who can stay within 5 yards of his man would be a liability. But you're right, he wasn't as much of a liability vs. Villa. You know why? Because they really didn't need to attack down the left that much when the middle was wide open almost all game long.

[wah00ey]

I can't really add anything to this - the general mood of the thread is that Brendan got it wrong and should have changed it earlier than he did.  Even then, we'd handed a hell of a lot of momentum to Villa in those first few minutes and they could easily have scored in the second half, even though we were more in the ascendancy.  I do think we underestimated them massively, I'm not sure Coutinho needs to be dropped per se - however, the three Ss are in better form currently and, in order to keep our preferred formation, he should have been the one to move to the bench. 

Many are saying that Villa performed the best of any team visiting Anfield so far this season and that's a worry - largely because City, Arse, Chelsea, Everton and Spuds have all yet to visit.  Are we out of the race for the Prem?  No, but we didn't do our chances any good on Saturday.  The teams above us haven't dropped points for a while and are all on good runs.  We have not matched them but none of them have had really tricky fixtures for a while and I think some of the 6 pointers between the teams above us will coincide with the return of the Champions League and we could get ourselves back in the race if they all take points off each other.

Back to the game, I think it's harsh to judge SG as a DM when he had no effective cover in front of him.  He was left far too exposed and that's why I think only one of Coutinho or Sterling should have started.  Playing a right footer as the left CB very rarely works for me and Toure was a fantastic example of this.  That's not necessarily his fault though, as injuries dictated his selection in that position.

All in all, it may well be a good point, a reality check if you like.  We have a dearth of attacking talent but even against a mid-table side like Villa you need a solid defence in the Prem these days.  If we give any of these teams a chance to play to their strengths then we're in trouble as Hull, Southampton and now Villa have proved.

[Livo.85]

He wasn't a liability? I would think someone who's been as lazy as he has, who's been disinterested as he has, who can't prevent a cross, or who can stay within 5 yards of his man would be a liability. But you're right, he wasn't as much of a liability vs. Villa. You know why? Because they really didn't need to attack down the left that much when the middle was wide open almost all game long.

You are exaggerating to make a point that you then contradict. He might look lazy & struggle to prevent some crosses due to the work rate required at fullback under Rodgers. For me his athleticism is gone & it was no coincidence that he was better at RCB where he would be less of a liability than at fullback or Toure playing there instead. He is still a very good defender. Maybe you don't agree with that point but is there a need to derail the thread further & debate it?

[MobileBayRed]

I see so many armchair managers raising their hand to claim they knew the team selection was wrong when it was announced.  Well, what were the alternatives?

The back four was set, due to injuries.

Assuming everyone agrees that Sturridge and Suarez should have started together up front, what are the alternative midfield lineups?

By my estimation, you have Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson, Lucas, Gerrard and Allen (coming off injury) competing for four spots.  Clearly Brendan went with what he considered the best four, regardless of formation. 

Assuming we play a 4 man midfield going forward, what are our options:


Coutinho                                        Sterling

                Henderson   Gerrard

That's the one that we played against Villa that didn't work.  Put Lucas in for Gerrard and maybe that lineup works as Lucas is more inclined to cover Henderson getting forward. But, as many have mentioned on here, dropping Gerrard is not an easy choice.

Another alternative is to drop Sterling and play a four man midfield diamond

                        Coutinho

Gerrard                                            Henderson


                          Lucas/Allen

But so many people prior to the Aston Villa match were crying that Sterling should not be dropped in the form he is in.

We could go 4-3-3- with Suarez-Sturridge-Sterling up top, but how do we fill the midfield 3?  The inverted 1-2 with Lucas behind Henderson and Gerrard.  Does that leave Coutinho out in the cold?

I actually like the 3-5-2 formation that was discussed earlier in this thread with Johnson as the LW and Sterling as the RW, but that still leaves a midfield triangle to be filled with Lucas-Henderson-Gerrard-Coutinho.  Which of those are you going to drop?  And it also assumes that we have 3 healthy CBs, which we don't at the moment.

Rodgers' lineup and formation didn't work against Villa in the first half.  That much is clear.  I just don't think there is ONE obvious solution to the set up.  He has some tough decisions ahead.

Personally, I feel that the problem is the Cissoko-Toure left side of defense.  I don't think we are having this roundtable if Sakho, Agger or Enrique had been healthy.  Just my opinion.

[wah00ey]

I see so many armchair managers raising their hand to claim they knew the team selection was wrong when it was announced.  Well, what were the alternatives?

I stopped reading here - I'm pretty sure this opinion isn't restricted to "armchair" managers.  Playing all four of Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge required changing the formation to accomodate them and we all saw that that did not work, exposing the midfield and allowing Villa to run through us pretty much at will for the majority of the first half.  Rodgers made that decision when he could (arguably should) have benched Coutinho and played Lucas or Allen in the middle with Gerrard and Hendo.

[redtel]

Am I being too harsh?

Not at all. Problems all over the pitch in that first 40 mins. Selection dilemma's before the game turned into a nightmare. In addition 3 of our back 4 looking way below what is needed to get a top 4 place.

If we ignore the back four and look at the six remaining selections we have only had eight options this season as Aspas and Moses have rarely played. With Gerrard and Sturridge injured we had no options but as soon as they are fit we struggle to get a balanced team.

Gerrard is tried again in a DM role, we select 2 strikers and our best 2 controlling midfielders are on the bench. If we do progress as a team we will surely have 10 or more players in contention for those 6 positions and rotation or benching will be the norm. A CL squad accepts this with big games coming thick and fast.

Surely we should have stuck with Luis as the lone striker and either benched Sturridge or played him in place of either Coutinho or Sterling as he was excellent at Stoke. This would have made a space for Lucas or Allen.

It might be a tough selection process but it won't get any easier for the manager if we build up a decent sized squad. Also, if one of the two strikers is not available for the next game we are back to altering the shape again.

Does it disturb anyone that our main distribution line was from Skrtel?

Not surprised as the other three are out of form it seems.

Did anyone play well? Sterling?

Agree that Sterling did well and is proving a tough little player as he was hacked down more than once after getting past his marker.

How much did Villa's tactics and defending help their cause?

Good tactics by Lambert.We helped by advertising our set up pre-match. The referee allowed some clogging to go on with yellows shown but not on every occassion. Luis seemed affected by the rough treatment which I cannot blame him for. I thought he had a broken cheek bone at one stage.

Gerrard at defensive midfield: any evidence that he can do this role?

Didn't see anything at The Brittania to say he could play it. His pass completion rate dropped to 75% as there are more of his longer passes intercepted from back there. Three goals conceded with Lucas in front of him and two in 45 mins with no Lucas. Possibly with Sakho and Flanagan restored the defence would improve but his natural instinct is to go forward. He is not a natural defender as we saw for the first goal.

We have tried 2 in midfield before.

We lost 1-3 at Soton last March when Allen and Gerrard started as a two in midfield. That was an attacking XI with SAS up front, and Lucas and Henderson on the bench. Lucas came on for Allen (injured) at H.T. and Henderson for Coutinho at 83mins. Brad Jones was praised for several good saves as we were well beaten.

So this time we went back to three in midfield at H.T. and a point was salvaged which is good. If Lucas had stayed fit I think we would have managed a third goal as we were much improved in those all too short 20 minutes.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Think back to last week......

Around the 35th minute in the game against Stoke Lucas took a nasty knock to his right knee in a tackle with Charlie Adam that took him quite some time to run off..........and he wasn't quite so good in the remaining minutes of the match.

Roll forward 1 week and Lucas is left out against lowly Villa and Rodgers in his post match interview said that training had been interrupted by some injuries.

Connected?  I think maybe so.

Maybe Rodgers wasn't being cavalier at all against Villa,  maybe,  just maybe neither Lucas or Allen (just returning from injury) were fit enough to start leaving SG & JH as the only central midfielders he could pick,  so he adjusted the team appropriately.

Only it went horribly wrong and he was forced to bring on Lucas;  if he was carrying a knock to the knee then the clash with Delph pushed it over it's limits.

Anyone else thinking the same?

This was something I was considering as well.  I have heard Brendan say before in pressers that we were going to hold his minutes down to 45 or or the last 15 minutes.  It is quite possible with Allen coming back from injury and the pace of the Stoke game, that he thought he could attack Villa out of the game initially.  It is not like we do not have the players to do this, but there is a point about balance that needed to be attended right from the get-go.   

Also, I think there is another piece, possibly.  While I was certainly not involved in their tactical talks, the language used by the gaffer and players reflects a mentality of an attacking team where the focus shifts to players who see themselves as attackers first.  (Imo) this can promote more an individual bent on the game, and really is a counter-force to what has made Liverpool special this year - combination play. 

I may be stretching it bit here, but when we read Henderson's comments today about "team defending" (not just our back four) and put it together with our attackers being out of sync (more options to consider, predictable becomes less certain, and each of our attackers being off a bit), there is a definitely a case to made that we thought we would attack our way out of problems.  Timbo brought up an interesting point as this may be a post-Stoke reaction, Sturridge's cameo form, and an our ability to play quickly go forward.  Nonetheless, what may have heightened this is the inside knowledge that several of middies were nursing some knocks.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I wrote this in the post-match whine thread, but i truly believe that Gerrard does not have the instincts or anticipation to play as a defender/DM.

His talents are better suited as an attacking player. I don`t have the tactical knowledge to tell you where he would play in the team right now, but I think we can all agree that Coutinho perhaps needs a break and is certainly more suited to playing as an inside attacking player rather than out wide. I think Stevie could be his competitor for that proposed position, and that would not be the end of the world.

Allen or Henderson need to play as the holding midfielder if that`s what we are going to have. Even Kolo Toure may be an option if not utilised in a 3 CB formation.

I love Stevie G, and I am still formulating my reaction to recent events (at Spurs domination, reintroduction into the side, and now the last two games as a "regista" role) as to where his future resides positionally. 

On one side, I look at three crucial goals (each one really pisses me off) where our Captain failed to track his man

1) Swansea - Jonjo's goal (probably shared responsibility with Lucas on this gem)
2) Everton - Mirallas' put back on the set play was not inevitable and tied the game we were dominating
3) Aston Villa - Weimann got to his front

Maybe, this trend cost us points or maybe we were destined to tie these games anyway.  Who knows? 
However, when we combine them with the confusion of the last 15 minutes of 1st half at Stoke and first half of Villa, we saw a player trying to do too much often out of position which led to other players compensating and being off kilter.   Can he play the regista role?

Well, when we think about going forward, our second goal was set up by another world class ball pinged by Captain Fantastic.  While his position and role changed at half-time, his ability to deliver the tactic that Rodgers wanted to exploit did not.  Also, we must not forget the strong sample size of pinged delivery service Gerrard has offered to Suarez over the years.   Someone post them, as I cannot remember the list of long balls that have been perfectly placed onto a Suarez, Sturridge etc... 

And when you combine this world class talent with his re-start, leadership, impact on referees, sheer force of will, periodic ball-winning and penalty abilities, you have a player that should be on the pitch every game (if we can hide his deficiencies).  Can he play the regista role?  Certainly, he can!  The issue is can we hide his deficiencies well enough to warrant using him in this role, when we have players who are better than him individually, but do not impact the team in totality as well as our Captain.

To me, if we can hide his deficiencies --- as we have done with Lucas for years, then in my mind he could carve out a role.  However, it will not be without growing pains and frequent calls by the supporters to get rid of him.  This is where Rodgers and staff will really have to do well to create confidence, but find ways to protect him (as he is still a very dangerous weapon).   This may speak to how Rodgers sees himself as more of an attacking coach.  It also may speak to what the owners wanted from him when he started, (More goals and something visually to sell)...

[Redeo]

How Rodgers has utilized all of the skills of our captain has been unbelievably savvy.  A new coach who knows that the house needs to be cleaned or that changes are coming that have little to do with his appointment (Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam, Pepe Reina, Maxi Rodriguez, Dirk Kuyt, Craig Bellamy etc.) still has to maintain his relationships with the squad, especially since he sees himself a clinician, a player's coach, and one of the best in the business at man management.  Also, Gerrard is already on a pedestal in the city.  Rodgers could not have done what he has done, so quickly without Gerrard's leadership with Suarez, the locker room, and the marketing successes that Stevie G performs almost daily.  Captain fantastic has more street cred than the manager.  Until Brendan wins something, this dynamic will hold.  Carra coming back into the squad was a signal of this, plus Rodgers got it quickly like bringing in Rush, Fowler and past Liverpool greats to be ambassadors.  The club is about unity and a few messages.  Getting embroiled into a tete-tete with both our world class players would have been a nightmare and probably cost him his job.  No, I think Rodgers has done what needed to be done and he did it (imo- from afar) in a truly authentic manner.  He stayed pretty true to what he has said all along. So, no more nonsense about Steve Gerrard bias by the manager.  The Spurs match is still only a few weeks old, and the move to excise our #8 out of starting line-up is insane in so many ways only a coach can truly calculate on the practice pitch.

At some point Rodgers will have to start using Gerrard more sporadically, which does not have to undermine Gerrard's role. Many people feel the time for it is now, in light of some of his lackluster performances prior to the injury and in light of the competition in our midfield. He's still captain fantastic but to remain fantastic decisions will simply have to me made.

Brendan's task will be to do this as seamlessly as possible.

[Redeo]

He'd be a whizz up and down, and his full on pest/gadfly defending is really coming on nicely, but do you not think his height/physical presence might be a bit of a liability against larger teams/teams that like deep crosses/even long diagonal balls etc. though? Genuine question and believe me I'm sitting here thinking why it might not be (learning you see)—his quickness, anticipation and spring maybe... reassigning things at set pieces perhaps... but I can't help thinking that we could suffer the same thing as Villa's second goal, as a) we don't seem impregnable when it comes to crosses at the moment, left or right, and b) I've not much confidence in Mig's coming for them. I've nightmmare visions of our center backs being drawn to the left and him being left at the far post, arriving first to a deep cross... and then a big forward arriving over the top of him, and leaving him, ball and all in the back of the net.

IMO, using an extremely young and talented Sterling in a RB position, at a time when he is garnering belief, confidence, consistency and attention in the position he is playing, would be delusional. 

[BabuYagu]

He'd be a whizz up and down, and his full on pest/gadfly defending is really coming on nicely, but do you not think his height/physical presence might be a bit of a liability against larger teams/teams that like deep crosses/even long diagonal balls etc. though? Genuine question and believe me I'm sitting here thinking why it might not be (learning you see)—his quickness, anticipation and spring maybe... reassigning things at set pieces perhaps... but I can't help thinking that we could suffer the same thing as Villa's second goal, as a) we don't seem impregnable when it comes to crosses at the moment, left or right, and b) I've not much confidence in Mig's coming for them. I've nightmmare visions of our center backs being drawn to the left and him being left at the far post, arriving first to a deep cross... and then a big forward arriving over the top of him, and leaving him, ball and all in the back of the net.

If you are looking for Dani Alves in the body of Ivanovic he will probably set you back about 30m. However, most full backs aren´t that tall. You will be vulnerable to strikers pulling off the the back post for deep crosses but it´s not like Johnson is particularly strong there despite being 6' himself. The other thing I would say is Sterling has one of the best leaps. From my time watching Ipswich Town I know that players with his frame can compete in the air watching David Johnson outjumping most of the Championship CB's who all look and played exactly like Robert Huth from memory. Or look at Roberto Ayala who dominated in the air despite being marginally taller than Sterling.

The way I look at it is if Rafael can be a full back and a very good one at that, then there is no reason why Sterling cannot do the same. Although maybe we should avoid letting Scholes teach him to tackle as the Mancs are doing.

Thing is, with the chase for 4th being as tight as it is, do you think Rodgers would experiment with that now? Maybe if he had the Europa League this season it is something he could/would have tried.

[B0151?]

Few things to say. Not convinced it was completely down to the formation. Put out any other midfield pairing and I honestly think that it functions a lot better than that one did - it gets hold of the ball a lot more. Henderson is great but his defensive side isn't too good by any means. His runs forward were only ever going to leave us - and Gerrard - horribly exposed. Put Lucas alongside Gerrard and they will simply sit deep and spread the ball. Put Allen alongside Lucas and you've got two boys who'll win and keep the ball really well. Hendo alongside Allen and you've got two lads who can get up and down all day. Hendo alongside Lucas and you've got Lucas doing what he's best at.

I think that Gerrard can play that anchor role, but he needs to have two lads in front of him providing protection. I don't watch much of Italy or Juve, but you never see Pirlo in a two man midfield do you? He isn't a defensive midfielder and he doesn't have the legs, but put two bodies in front of him, two runners, and it allows him to excel.

[Reese]

For all the discussion about the formation (and for the record, I agree it was horribly unbalanced), I think alot is being overlooked about how the goals happened. While the formation and players selected affected our shape, ability and flow of the game, did they actually have a major impact on the goals? Someone who is a football scholar can correct me, but I do not think so. It is not like they scored by waltzing through our 2 man midfield. They also only had three shots on target. If anything, that midfield was a bigger impediment going forward and connecting the play - shown by how off we were going forward.

As to the goals, it was like groundhog day, starting from ground passes down the flank. For the first, I thought Skrtel could have pressed tighter to Benteke when he received the ball to make him turn and prevent the free ball beyond. (This is no way places blame or diminishes his return to aerial beast mode in the second half) Beyond that, Toure was beat and failed to stop the cross. (Which once again to be fair, I imagine Agbonlahor would beat most CBs.) This resulted in a goal line catastrophe with the ball beating our goalie, another defender and culminated with the inability to mark a player by Gerrard. Plus, it was 2v5+goalie in the box. 

The second was a horror show from Mignolet. Johnson could have easily cleared, but instead, Ming missed the punch and Beneke's gift was complete. Ironically, had he been "timid" to come off his line, it would have been a better result.
   
I guess its positive that the goals are correctable in a sense, but its horribly disappointing to see how easy they were. What happened to other teams scoring worldies on us? Now it just seems like they are ridiculously cheap and only of our own doing. 

Overall though, I think the bigger blame was that we had too many players have poor days at the office. Of course we should have won, but based on our poor performance (which happen to all teams - a fact seemingly unknown by many on here) and missing starters, we can be thankful for the draw.

[rlpolobear9]

If Lucas would have stayed on we win that game going away in the second half, nough said

[Trendisnotdestiny]

If Lucas would have stayed on we win that game going away in the second half, nough said

Or if Suarez's free kick was a few feet to the right.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

After mulling over it for a few days, the starting line up was just naive and unnecessarily risky.

Rodgers expected Villa to sit in and counter, I don't think he expected them to press us and certainly not as aggressively as they did. He assumed they would park the bus, decided to play four attackers and left zero room for error.

Say he starts with three attackers and three midfielders but Villa park the bus and we struggle to break them down, once we've seen Villa's hand we can change things accordingly, bring on another attacker, we haven't left ourselves open.

Say we start with three attackers and three midfielders but Villa decide to take the game to us and not sit back, we have adequate numbers in midfield to soak up the pressure and plenty of attacking threat, it's balanced, we're not going to steamroller Villa but we're not going to lose control either.

The final situation which is what played out was Rodgers plays four attackers and two midfielders, this puts huge strain on the two midfielders in any scenario, but when Villa decide to take the game to us and press for their lives, it's lambs to the slaughter. We lose control of the match and end up having to having to rectify during the first half.

My feeling is that we play three midfielders and there are no surprises, we can rely on our superior quality to see us through against the majority of teams.

[woof]

maybe it will put some feet back on the ground 

we aren't the finished article our defensive play is not good enough hasn't been all season but its been masked by some outstanding play going forward. I dont think its  a question of either or, we need both and todays display looked more naive than anything else.

Rodgers is still learning and needs  to find a balance. It looked like we underestimated Villa expected them to worry about us but they did really well. They looked very confident, brave and thrived on the space we allowed them.  We couldn't get the ball and when we did we were so stretched out we couldn't use it. 

Gerrard looked lost in the first half. Its a sad state of affairs that we can't see a system that uses the massive talent he still has. If Henderson is to be his legs then they'll have to be in our half not all over the pitch when we have 4 other players basically committed to attack. Neither fullback helped the midfield although Cissokho at least tried.

I think we forgot the basics of needing to control that midfield. The difference between the team with and without Lucas was staggering. We still dont have any real cover for him. Rodgers seems to think its Allen given the lack of cover last year and this.  I can't see it myself. I think his position is more advanced than that. Same type of role as Henderson and if Gerrard is to play that anchor, we'll need to re-think midfield because we cant support 4 forwards unless the opposition park the bus (which is probably what I think Rodgers expected). What I dont understand is why we didn't change it when it was obvious we wre being outplayed.

The players were second to every ball in the first half an hour, it was reminiscent of the Hull debacle where the energy, aggression and belief of the opposition took us by surprise. Its like we expected Villa to play a certain way and roll over and die when they didn't we had no idea what to do.

Bad tactics, bad attitude and bad preperation. Rodgers should carry the can for the first half , he was outhought by Lambert and the Villa players were better prepared and motivated. Thankfully half time worked well and Rodgers should get credit for that. But, but but its a bad day and one that could and should have been avoided with better management. Hopefully one we learn from, chalk it up to Rodgers needing to grow as a manager, he's got more right this year than not and more right this year than last hopefully that trend continues. Unfortunately he does not have the luxury of being able to make many mistakes and still achieve the high expectations that are heaped on him.

THIS.

So true. Lambert got his tactics spot on. We were lucky to escape with a draw. Let that be a wake up call and for heaven's sake, will BR stop talking about our title chances! We're not there yet, not even close.