Topic: FSG (*)

[Machae]

Doubt Anfield will go over 60k in the near future, whether they would consistently fill it is another debate

[El Lobo]

Excuses coming in early.

What excuse?

A potential £30 million which was expected to come into the club, may now not be. This might impact how much money is available.

Duh.

[CraigDS]

What excuse?

A potential £30 million which was expected to come into the club, may now not be. This might impact how much money is available.

Duh.

Stop with the excuses slippery.

[AaronSingh25]

What excuse?

A potential £30 million which was expected to come into the club, may now not be. This might impact how much money is available.

Duh.

Firstly i don't even remember anyone saying Sakho was going for 30 million. The figure overnight has been inflated greatly.

FSG and their PR at full works lol

Wonder now Ayre has gone we'll have variations to the 'Liverpool is not in London' type excuse. I hear Ayre was at it again yesterday bellowing that line out. Shame he didn't care to mention it doesn't effect the two Manc clubs attracting players from London.

[El Lobo]

Firstly i don't even remember anyone saying Sakho was going for 30 million. The figure overnight has been inflated greatly.

FSG and their PR at full works lol

Wonder now Ayre has gone we'll have variations to the 'Liverpool is not in London' type excuse. I hear Ayre was at it again yesterday bellowing that line out. Shame he didn't care to mention it doesn't effect the two Manc clubs attracting players from London.

Oh.

You quoted someone saying we hoped to sell him for £30 million. I mean.....you quoted it. Its up there. You actually put it in bold. So um....yeah, I dunno. Thundercats?

[AaronSingh25]

Oh.

You quoted someone saying we hoped to sell him for £30 million. I mean.....you quoted it. Its up there. You actually put it in bold. So um....yeah, I dunno. Thundercats?

I was quoting an article from James Pearce - who many say has inside connections to those on the board at our club. Hence, if they wanted to make some PR noise they would likely go through him or some other local reporters.

He was the one last night coming out with a suddenly inflated 30 million figure. Now that's going to come our transfer kitty apparently.

[CraigDS]

£30m has been mentioned a load of times before today.

[El Lobo]

£30m has been mentioned a load of times before today.

Yeah...has it though? I'm not even sure its been mentioned today, ever. £40 million we expected you say?

[JackWard33]

What excuse?

A potential £30 million which was expected to come into the club, may now not be. This might impact how much money is available.

Duh.

We'd have been doing well to get north of 20 million for him but regardless the idea that this amount of money would impact on the players we want to get after 18 months of basically zero spending and record incomes into the club is pretty close to insulting fans intelligence

[El Lobo]

We'd have been doing well to get north of 20 million for him but regardless the idea that this amount of money would impact on the players we want to get after 18 months of basically zero spending and record incomes into the club is pretty close to insulting fans intelligence

Why is it?

Its £20/25/30 million not coming into the club.

If someone says 'we cant afford Van Dijk because Sakho is injured' then of course, its ridiculous. What people are wetting their pants over now though, is a tweet that says '£30 million not coming into the club when it was expected potentially impacts how much money is available'. Again, duh.

[CraigDS]

We'd have been doing well to get north of 20 million for him but regardless the idea that this amount of money would impact on the players we want to get after 18 months of basically zero spending and record incomes into the club is pretty close to insulting fans intelligence

Well, it shouldn't effect a good amount of the spending (i.e. it shouldn't mean we have nothing), but of course if we were banking on receiving £30m (or £20m) for him and now won't then of course it will no doubt be taken into account.

It's not like, as of May 2016, we had banked a load of cash which hadn't been spent previously either.

[JackWard33]

Well, it shouldn't effect a good amount of the spending (i.e. it shouldn't mean we have nothing), but of course if we were banking on receiving £30m (or £20m) for him and now won't then of course it will no doubt be taken into account.

It's not like, as of May 2016, we had banked a load of cash which hadn't been spent previously either.

So to be clear going into the summer. We think Klopp is operating under a budget and that budget is partly determined by the amount brought in through player sales?

I ask this because anyone that suggest he wasn't operating under a budget last summer and didn't have all the players he wanted was told that wasn't the case.
I'm not saying you or anyone posting in this thread right now... I'm just saying it would be nice if we could assess the ownership and our 'investment' this summer with a more factual grounding than ' klopp is making all the calls he's got exactly the squad he wanted' we had last summer

[CraigDS]

So to be clear going into the summer. We think Klopp is operating under a budget and that budget is partly determined by the amount brought in through player sales?

I ask this because anyone that suggest he wasn't operating under a budget last summer and didn't have all the players he wanted was told that wasn't the case.
I'm not saying you or anyone posting in this thread right now... I'm just saying it would be nice if we could assess the ownership and our 'investment' this summer with a more factual grounding than ' klopp is making all the calls he's got exactly the squad he wanted' we had last summer

There will be some sort of budget, I mean there is no unlimited pot of cash to spend. So I imagine if we are spending a huge amount of money, like has been mentioned, then this will no doubt include money brought in via sales of the likes of Sakho.

So in that regard, yes it would no doubt effect it.

However I imagine without sales we still have a very large amount, if the amount being mentioned in the media is true.

[diegoLFC7]

If Sakho's injury is a 6 month long on the sidelines then i still expect Palace to buy him in the summer.

[JackWard33]

There will be some sort of budget, I mean there is no unlimited pot of cash to spend. So I imagine if we are spending a huge amount of money, like has been mentioned, then this will no doubt include money brought in via sales of the likes of Sakho.

So in that regard, yes it would no doubt effect it.

However I imagine without sales we still have a very large amount, if the amount being mentioned in the media is true.

Cool - because the consensus opinion on here last summer was that sales had artificially offset our spending and that Klopp was choosing not to spend more. Not that there was a budget or he was restrained in the money he could spend. 
This was obviously nonsense but it was the general opinion here.

[Garrus]

Cool - because the consensus opinion on here last summer was that sales had artificially offset our spending and that Klopp was choosing not to spend more. Not that there was a budget or he was restrained in the money he could spend. 
This was obviously nonsense but it was the general opinion here.

This was what Klopp said regarding the spending last year:

“Will it be a similar transfer window as last summer when we broke even? I don’t think it’s possible. Again, it was not a target last season. We didn’t say: ‘Let’s see if we can do it.’ It just happened. It was a big squad and we tried to create more of a group which we thought would be enough. There will be a few other faces and that’s how it is always.”

He says the profit was pure co-incidence. Of course, people could choose to not believe him.

[Suareznumber7]

mentioned in the media is true.

This little snippet is what get's people all riled up.  Believing everything that is said in the media and then slamming anyone and everyone associated with the club when it doesn't end up being true.  I can't believe the hysteria of some people about what they read/hear from others. 

[CraigDS]

This little snippet is what get's people all riled up.  Believing everything that is said in the media and then slamming anyone and everyone associated with the club when it doesn't end up being true.  I can't believe the hysteria of some people about what they read/hear from others.

In a way it's partly the clubs making, as they clearly do give snippets of info out to certain journos.

The issue is the club is not the only source for these journos, and they all post some opinion too, so it's not always clear exactly what is from the club and what is not. Let's not forget they all talk to each other too, so no surprise when they run a similar story at the same time.

I say it's partly the clubs making though as we as individuals also need to take things with a pinch of salt and not really believe most stuff said in the media (direct quotes aside) and certainly not use it to judge good or bad.

[El Lobo]

He says the profit was pure co-incidence. Of course, people could choose to not believe him.

To be fair quite a few people choose not to believe him with a lot of what he says

[JackWard33]

To be fair quite a few people choose not to believe him with a lot of what he says

Yeah and some believe everything he says. Not sure how helpful his quotes are, or any managers are, far better to judge them on actions

[El Lobo]

Yeah and some believe everything he says. Not sure how helpful his quotes are, or any managers are, far better to judge them on actions

Its pretty impossible to judge the manager on actions when a lot of the debate is around 'are FSG backing the manager' and he's actively said that he is being backed and has no issue whatsoever with the signings (or lack of).

Everything else frankly is fair game. But when the debate is around that, you either believe what the manager says or actively think he's not telling the truth and IMO question his integrity a little bit around how he works as a manager and his personality if you feel he'd happily work under conditions where he wasn't being backed to the extent he needed to be.

[JackWard33]

Its pretty impossible to judge the manager on actions when a lot of the debate is around 'are FSG backing the manager' and he's actively said that he is being backed and has no issue whatsoever with the signings (or lack of).

Everything else frankly is fair game. But when the debate is around that, you either believe what the manager says or actively think he's not telling the truth and IMO question his integrity a little bit around how he works as a manager and his personality if you feel he'd happily work under conditions where he wasn't being backed to the extent he needed to be.

No it's not that simple. A year ago he was talking about the British being obsessed with the market when he was obsessed with training and developing (despite constantly having a huge player churn at Dortmund). In the winter it was about getting the right player not just any player and then there was sort of an admission we'd failed (as a club) to get what we needed. Now its about needing to bring in a lot of players. His quotes about spending on the squad have changed and its certainly not clear what our strategy is now - if it ever was.
I don't blame him or question his integrity - it comes with the territory ...  He's the face of a multi million pound business whose forced to give a running commentary on what the business is doing. It's impossible and counter productive for him to always tell the truth or be completely transparent about the decisions we're making, budgets we're working to etc etc. I also don't think he'd only work within a big budget - or that he's not happy with the budget and is pretending he is.

Ultimately he isn't the most relevant person to these decisions.... he doesn't sign the checks or decide the budgets and he can't always be straightforward in all his comments so it all becomes a bit irrelevant.
When it comes to investment on the pitch and squad level etc - all we can really do is judge based on what we have in front of us. What the squad actually looks like and how it's been formed over the last couple of years. How it's spun or presented is less interesting
I accept that it's extremely hard to judge whose responsible for which decision or who should be accountable... so I guess we're judging the management, executive and ownership of the club as a whole 

[El Lobo]

But that's literally what we've got to work with, anything else is absolute guesswork. So when people say 'FSG need to back the manager, unlike last summer or January' then its utter guesswork. Might be true like, but its an absolute guess.

What we know is he's signed a contract under certain conditions, and signed an extension under certain conditions. The implication being that he's happy with how things are and how things work. The players we signed last summer, have all played. Mane has been first choice, Gini too, Klavan always around the 1st team and Karius was until he completely lost form. So again, we're clearly not in an Assaidi situation where players are being signed that the manager doesn't want. Whats more, he's actively said that he has made the choice to go with certain players in certain positions because he'd rather solve an issue internally than just go and buy someone new every time, or he's tried to get by in certain situations.

Now, if this was just utterly unbelievable then fair enough. But its not. Had Origi, Sturridge and Can shown good form all season we wouldn't be sitting here talking about a severe lack of depth. If Coutinho, Henderson, Lallana and Mane hadn't had long term injuries through the season, again we wouldn't be having such a bitch-fit about it.

[JackWard33]

But that's literally what we've got to work with, anything else is absolute guesswork. So when people say 'FSG need to back the manager, unlike last summer or January' then its utter guesswork. Might be true like, but its an absolute guess.

What we know is he's signed a contract under certain conditions, and signed an extension under certain conditions. The implication being that he's happy with how things are and how things work. The players we signed last summer, have all played. Mane has been first choice, Gini too, Klavan always around the 1st team and Karius was until he completely lost form. So again, we're clearly not in an Assaidi situation where players are being signed that the manager doesn't want. Whats more, he's actively said that he has made the choice to go with certain players in certain positions because he'd rather solve an issue internally than just go and buy someone new every time, or he's tried to get by in certain situations.

Now, if this was just utterly unbelievable then fair enough. But its not. Had Origi, Sturridge and Can shown good form all season we wouldn't be sitting here talking about a severe lack of depth. If Coutinho, Henderson, Lallana and Mane hadn't had long term injuries through the season, again we wouldn't be having such a bitch-fit about it.

We're talking past each other - I'm not arguing he's unhappy. But I also don't see how him being happy is the issue. The issue is whether we've invested enough in the squad over the past 2 years - and that's a club issue not a Klopp issue
And for the record I was having a bitch fit at the end of last summer about our lack of depth... rightly or wrongly I am consistent in my bitch fits

[El Lobo]

We're talking past each other - I'm not arguing he's unhappy. But I also don't see how him being happy is the issue. The issue is whether we've invested enough in the squad over the past 2 years - and that's a club issue not a Klopp issue
And for the record I was having a bitch fit at the end of last summer about our lack of depth... rightly or wrongly I am consistent in my bitch fits

Aye, it is a club issue. That's my point I guess, its not 'FSG' or 'Klopp' as a club, we've made that decision to try and get through and its backfired and hopefully its a lesson learned with minimal consequences at the end of the season.

[rawcusk8]

No discussion in here about Ayre saying we didnt think Alli warranted the £5m fee at the time. Crazy stuff (mods sorry if it's not to be brought up in here)

[DangerScouse]

What the fuck would Ayre know?

[killer-heels]

No discussion in here about Ayre saying we didnt think Alli warranted the £5m fee at the time. Crazy stuff (mods sorry if it's not to be brought up in here)

At least he was honest that we fucked up.

Id prefer if he lied (he may be actually) about the Sanchez and London thing. Nobody wants to hear that.

[AaronSingh25]

But that's literally what we've got to work with, anything else is absolute guesswork. So when people say 'FSG need to back the manager, unlike last summer or January' then its utter guesswork. Might be true like, but its an absolute guess.

No it's not a scenario or hypothesis people have invented. Rodgers himself has said he wasn't backed - basically briefing the media behind closed doors saying as much. Transfers he didn't want, not getting his first choice picks that he wanted, etc

Then you look at the transfer windows for yourself. Transfers we missed out on, net spends, etc

[Dave D]

At least he was honest that we fucked up.

Id prefer if he lied (he may be actually) about the Sanchez and London thing. Nobody wants to hear that.

Well if the dumb c*nt is claiming Sanchez has a wife, he's lying. There's a good chance it was the same fuck up as Alli then. The good old FSG business model, where business men decide if a player is worth it or not.
We could have signed Sanchez and Alli within a few months of each other...we got Balotelli and Markovic.

Onwards and sideways.

[Cannon_Fodder42]

The success of Alli really does skew this discussion heavily.  Spurs took a shot, and it paid off incredibly well.  I don't think anyone expected him to make such a big impact so quickly.  By contrast, Markovic came as an incredibly highly rated player that had performed well in the Europa League.  One of these moves has paid off massively, the other has not.  Spurs also spent 75m on Sissoko, Janssen and Lamela.  Comparing our failures against other people's successes is always a route to frustration, especially when no transfer is a guarantee hit.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Well if the dumb c*nt is claiming Sanchez has a wife, he's lying. There's a good chance it was the same fuck up as Alli then. The good old FSG business model, where business men decide if a player is worth it or not.
We could have signed Sanchez and Alli within a few months of each other...we got Balotelli and Markovic.

Onwards and sideways.

We really going back to Sanchez now? It's not like Arsenal aren't an attractive destination for players also.

[DangerScouse]

We really going back to Sanchez now? It's not like Arsenal aren't an attractive destination for players also.

We should have been in the driving seat for his signature, we surely held the best hand given Suarez was going to Barca. Dare I suggest wages were a stumbling block?

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

We should have been in the driving seat for his signature, we surely held the best hand given Suarez was going to Barca. Dare I suggest wages were a stumbling block?

We don't know the full details, but sure, they could have been. We could have matched Arsenal's offer, and he chose them. I found it interesting recently, that Sanchez stated in an interview (while in CHile I think) that he wants to stay in the same city and be on a winning team.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/785530/Alexis-Sanchez-huge-update-Arsenal-future-Chelsea-on-red-alert-news-gossip

“I am happy in London and I hope to finish my contract at Arsenal,” Sanchez said.

"I want to stay in a winning team and keep playing in the same city.

doesn't seem as outlandish as people make it seem

[Gnurglan]

This was what Klopp said regarding the spending last year:

“Will it be a similar transfer window as last summer when we broke even? I don’t think it’s possible. Again, it was not a target last season. We didn’t say: ‘Let’s see if we can do it.’ It just happened. It was a big squad and we tried to create more of a group which we thought would be enough. There will be a few other faces and that’s how it is always.”

This is the way I see it. The main focus was not financial, it was to get the squad down to the size Klopp wanted. So it wasn't some FSG policy to try and compete on a shoestring budget. It actually made sense to do it. The January window was the same. We didn't think we could get the right player(s), so we decided not to add anyone. I think that's good. It's the opposite of what we have done before, when we have had a pile of cash and bought a bit of this and a bit of that. Clearly we can't throw money away if we want to compete.

We still haven't solved everything. Markovic and Sakho are two expensive players we still need to offload. When that is done, we will see. This is what I have wanted for a while.

If I'm right, this summer should get very interesting. Because we will have offloaded all unwanted/unnecessary players and we will sign replacements. One outcome is by September we should have the correct squad size and hopefully the right quality of players. That's when we should start seeing real progress. Add the expanded stadium and I find it very difficult to critisize FSG for the way they run the club.

[killer-heels]

This is the way I see it. The main focus was not financial, it was to get the squad down to the size Klopp wanted. So it wasn't some FSG policy to try and compete on a shoestring budget. It actually made sense to do it. The January window was the same. We didn't think we could get the right player(s), so we decided not to add anyone. I think that's good. It's the opposite of what we have done before, when we have had a pile of cash and bought a bit of this and a bit of that. Clearly we can't throw money away if we want to compete.

We still haven't solved everything. Markovic and Sakho are two expensive players we still need to offload. When that is done, we will see. This is what I have wanted for a while.

If I'm right, this summer should get very interesting. Because we will have offloaded all unwanted/unnecessary players and we will sign replacements. One outcome is by September we should have the correct squad size and hopefully the right quality of players. That's when we should start seeing real progress. Add the expanded stadium and I find it very difficult to critisize FSG for the way they run the club.

The squad didnt make sense. We went into the season with Klavan and Lucas as 3rd and 4th choice, 1 trusted left back, at least 1 midfielder light and two wide players. Maybe the numbers were right but every man and his dog knew that Sturridge and Lovren were injury prone and that Henderson had a long issue.

He misjudged the squad and his lack of use of certain players illustrated a deliberate choice to go in short and not give us any wiggle room. It cannot for example be right that we have to move our preferred striker away from up top if we get 1 injury in attack.

As for FSG, there is plenty to criticise. They havent pushed the boat out in the past for players, obsess over top four and they will move on from Klopp if they dont reach top four. They dont want to spend to get there and that will be illustrated in the summer.

[trimore]

The squad didnt make sense. We went into the season with Klavan and Lucas as 3rd and 4th choice, 1 trusted left back, at least 1 midfielder light and two wide players. Maybe the numbers were right but every man and his dog knew that Sturridge and Lovren were injury prone and that Henderson had a long issue.

He misjudged the squad and his lack of use of certain players illustrated a deliberate choice to go in short and not give us any wiggle room. It cannot for example be right that we have to move our preferred striker away from up top if we get 1 injury in attack.

As for FSG, there is plenty to criticise. They havent pushed the boat out in the past for players, obsess over top four and they will move on from Klopp if they dont reach top four. They dont want to spend to get there and that will be illustrated in the summer.

I think Klopp underesitmated the Premier League more than anything. For his first Dortmund title win he only had 12 players make more than 25 appearances. 3 more that made more than 12 appearances and that was really enough to win the title.  That's very close to what we have this year with a few games remaining. It sucks to say and some might find it arrogant, but the Premier League really is a meat grinder compared to the relatively tame Bundesliga.

It's even sadder to admit I thought we could get more from than we did Lucas, Sturridge and Origi this season than we did. Also thought we could squeeze more goals from Wjinaldum, Henderson, and Matip as well.

[killer-heels]

I think Klopp underesitmated the Premier League more than anything. For his first Dortmund title win he only had 12 players make more than 25 appearances. 3 more that made more than 12 appearances and that was really enough to win the title.  That's very close to what we have this year with a few games remaining. It sucks to say and some might find it arrogant, but the Premier League really is a meat grinder compared to the relatively tame Bundesliga.

It's even sadder to admit I thought we could get more from than we did Lucas, Sturridge and Origi this season than we did. Also thought we could squeeze more goals from Wjinaldum, Henderson, and Matip as well.

He definitely underestimated this league. Managers live and die by their decisions however and he will find that the scrutiny next season will be well higher than anything the Bundsliga has to offer.

Lucas wasnt good enough. Sturridge is almost always injured. Hardly anything new there.

[jooneyisdagod]

We're talking past each other - I'm not arguing he's unhappy. But I also don't see how him being happy is the issue. The issue is whether we've invested enough in the squad over the past 2 years - and that's a club issue not a Klopp issue
And for the record I was having a bitch fit at the end of last summer about our lack of depth... rightly or wrongly I am consistent in my bitch fits

We have to spend the money irrespective of the Sakho situation. Sakho's value does not become zero overnight. We may have to take a hit, but ultimately we might be able to sell the player anyway. Given he's played 0 minutes for Liverpool, we absolutely have to invest in a top drawer centre back. If that's Van Dijk for 50m, then so be it. Anything we spend may well be recouped from additional CL revenues anyway.

[Gnurglan]

The squad didnt make sense. We went into the season with Klavan and Lucas as 3rd and 4th choice, 1 trusted left back, at least 1 midfielder light and two wide players. Maybe the numbers were right but every man and his dog knew that Sturridge and Lovren were injury prone and that Henderson had a long issue.

He misjudged the squad and his lack of use of certain players illustrated a deliberate choice to go in short and not give us any wiggle room. It cannot for example be right that we have to move our preferred striker away from up top if we get 1 injury in attack.

As for FSG, there is plenty to criticise. They havent pushed the boat out in the past for players, obsess over top four and they will move on from Klopp if they dont reach top four. They dont want to spend to get there and that will be illustrated in the summer.

I wasn't pleased with the LB, but Klopp trusted Milner and I see no reason to say he was wrong there. Going forward, we should replace Moreno with a first pick LB though.

You have a point about our wide players. It's clearly an area we need to address in the summer. We should have seen the mismatch last summer too. We had four strikers for one role and really only three (Coutinho, Mane, Lallana) for the two wide roles. One could argue about Milner and Firmino, but the mix wasn't right.

So far I support what FSG have done here. My expectation next is that we will offload players that haven't played a lot, or made much of an impact on our season. I expect us to buy first picks. At least three. I expect the squad size to be the same as this season, or very close to it. So far under Klopp I'd say we've done a fair bit of 'cleaning' to get to a better foundation. This summer we go into the next phase.