Author Topic: Decent Tony Barrett interview here  (Read 31963 times)

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #160 on: October 6, 2015, 07:46:03 pm »
It's hardly surprising though. BR had a preference for players who had some track record of success in the EPL rather than unknown commodities. He probably felt that even if they were technically inferior, they could be coached to be better and that they would adjust/adapt more quickly and would be able to adapt to his style of play sooner than foreign players who didn't speak the language, weren't used to the climate, pressure, pace of the league et.

As it turned out, of the players he did want, most have been pretty disappointing. The TC players not ABSOLUTELY better by any certain terms but because they weren't necessarily utilised to their strengths theres always a feeling that we could've got more out of them in contrast to the players Rodgers wanted.

Offline Redrider

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #161 on: October 6, 2015, 07:46:30 pm »
Rodgers apparently brought the Transfer Committee upon himself, by firstly rejecting a DoF, then unilaterally wanting his own way by wishing to sell Carroll, refusing Sturridge and at the same time demanding the purchase of Allan, then pitching into the Dempsey- Henderson swap all against the wishes, recommendations and advice of the rest of management including the owners.
Rodgers then had his wings clipped by the owners who surrounded him with a 'Transfer Committe' which in turn suited Ayre's ambitions.
The bad 'karma' created by the initial Rodgers power game 'elbow jostling' obviously carried on into the operation of the Transfer Committee, resulting in the mess we have today.
With hindsight it is now possible to see that Rodgers chose completely the wrong set of players to use as a basis upon which to stake a claim for complete control of transfer activity, indicating a sublime lack of judgement in both player quality and political skills.
It is now hard to understand how he lasted for three seasons, in fact he just got lucky in that Sturridge arrived and Suarez blossomed.

Offline OLDIE

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #162 on: October 6, 2015, 07:49:53 pm »
Sounds about right then.

Committee have first dibs and select Firmino in return the'll let you have next pick...Benteke please and it goes on.

How fucked up is that system. Good God, no wonder we pissed millions up the wall

Offline wheresnemeth

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #163 on: October 6, 2015, 07:58:29 pm »
This leaves me wondering if they sacked Colin Pascoe in order to get Rogers to resign.
making a c*nting mess of a list, like c*nts on a bike trying to win the Tour de France...

Offline OLDIE

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #164 on: October 6, 2015, 08:03:06 pm »
This leaves me wondering if they sacked Colin Pascoe in order to get Rogers to resign.

I thought this at the time. I think Brendan lost a lot of respect in the game when he ditched Pascoe. It has come back to bite him

Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #165 on: October 6, 2015, 08:09:04 pm »
Brendan's inability to spot talents is probably one of the thing that cost him his job. Players weren't good enough.lambert Lallana Allen borini lovren. He also wanted bertrand sigurdsson Williams and Dempsey. Shocking eye for players he had. Probably only clyne and ings have been decent Brendan preference signings

Offline gamble

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #166 on: October 6, 2015, 08:14:02 pm »
This leaves me wondering if they sacked Colin Pascoe in order to get Rogers to resign.

I wAs thinking about this today too, why didn't he just resign. Guess he would lose out financially too so just had to hope the new season went well

Offline LFC when it suits

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #167 on: October 6, 2015, 08:37:59 pm »
Don't think it's a decent interview at all really.

It doesn't work, that's the bottom line. Any system that allows a manager to sign players he blatantly doesn't want, just because the committee recommended them, and then see them binned off is just totally flawed. We saw that early on with Assaidi, the warning signs where there. It was a cheap mistake really. But then the likes of Balotelli, Markovic, Sakho, Alberto, Ilori. Just doesn't work. And that's s criticism of the whole system, not Rodgers specifically or the committee specifically. It's just a totally flawed system unless there's total agreement.

The problem is having a manager not willing to work under the model. We should have never given Rodgers the job the moment he said he wants no one above him.

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #168 on: October 6, 2015, 08:48:15 pm »
Let's be fair - Assaidi, Alberto and Aspas weren't good enough for the PL other than maybe in small samples - 20M spent on those 3

You just can't really make this judgement. Assaidi put in two MOTM performances in 5 starts then never started another game. Aspas is a similar type of play to Ings. He started the first 3 games but then was frozen out for not hitting the ground running. Alberto rarely got a chance and showed small flashes in the few sub appearances he did get. It was easy for Rodgers to bomb them out as they were all cheap signings. To me, they all fit the profile of the type of payer we want, but the manager needed to give them a chance which he never did. Maybe they would have all flopped, but we will never know. They were all the victims of Brendan's political games.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #169 on: October 6, 2015, 08:54:29 pm »
Really disappointing if any of this information about Rodgers and TC's behavior is even 10% true.

How could FSG have allowed such a situation to transpire - and go on transpiring over multiple seasons as multiple millions of pounds in players are unused, sold off or loaned out without hardly getting a game?

If it was truly this much of a mess then they should have sacked Rodgers in the summer or last November when things had turned to shit. Regardless of his qualities as a coach Rodgers seems to have had an unhealthy and exaggerated idea of his qualities and himself.

I think there's nothing wrong with a Transfer Committee presuposing your Manager doesn't look down his nose at them, despise them, and go against every decision they'll make and then go one to not use their recommended buys as a political play to amass more power for himself. Clearly there was no mutual respect and if that was the case it was never going to work.

What a bunch of clowns, on all levels.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #170 on: October 6, 2015, 08:56:38 pm »
Let's be fair - Assaidi, Alberto and Aspas weren't good enough for the PL other than maybe in small samples - 20M spent on those 3


Aspas could have been a very useful player for us if he was ever given a game. I think during this post-mortem we're going to have to look real hard at our last three years and wonder where players let us down and where Rodgers let the club and player down.

Offline DPB RED

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #171 on: October 6, 2015, 09:22:28 pm »
What has annoyed me is we are loaning players out who have not even played a game for us,example loris.
However we have played players continually who make errors and have cost us points, Loveren.
I know Ballotelli was poor at times but how often did he play up front on his own when it was clear as day that he performs better as a supporting striker.
I really hope who ever becomes the next manager plays players in there best position and gives all signings a fair chance before binning them.

Offline alvaro

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #172 on: October 7, 2015, 05:33:58 am »
Rodgers is getting destroyed in here it seems. I wonder if his version is ever coming out.
To me he seems like a talented guy but that was blinded way too often by his ego.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #173 on: October 7, 2015, 05:41:55 am »
disgraceful story wrtten by Pearce circa xmas

I was extremely angry at that article. Was a Mourinho style game and it stunk

Offline lindylou100

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #174 on: October 7, 2015, 06:26:58 am »
I was extremely angry at that article. Was a Mourinho style game and it stunk

Me too, the detail was such that it had to have come from someone at the meeting. Whilst I can't prove he was the source, it did feel like an openly political move from Rodgers to shift blame for our failures and push for more power over transfers at a time when the club needed to stick together. That combined with the mistreatment of some of the players gave me some serious misgivings about him.

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #175 on: October 7, 2015, 06:57:55 am »
If that is only remotely true it needs to fucking stop right now. Players being bought because the manager allowed another one to be bought? What do they think they're running? A fucking corner-shop or a football club? Don't necessarily think Rodgers is painted a bad light in this. The club comes off much worse, because that's not how we should be operating at all.

I'm sure it will [stop]. The whole situation appears to have gotten out of hand to the point where it became a political power play. Therefore Sunday's decision was hardly surprising.

If Klopp gets the job, don't be surprised if Michael Zork follows in the summer (contract expires at Dortmund at the season's end). Although Klopp doesn't sign the players and is used to a DOF scenario, by the same token he needs someone on the TC whom he trusts.

Offline rob1408

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #176 on: October 7, 2015, 07:02:05 am »
I'm sure it will [stop]. The whole situation appears to have gotten out of hand to the point where it became a political power play. Therefore Sunday's decision was hardly surprising.

If Klopp gets the job, don't be surprised if Michael Zork follows in the summer (contract expires at Dortmund at the season's end). Although Klopp doesn't sign the players and is used to a DOF scenario, by the same token he needs someone on the TC whom he trusts.
Zorc's contract runs until 2019.

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #177 on: October 7, 2015, 07:10:53 am »
Zorc's contract runs until 2019.

Shit, I stand corrected.

In any case, I'd have thought the TC would be one of the main points of discussion throughout the negotiations.

Offline rob1408

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #178 on: October 7, 2015, 07:14:28 am »
Shit, I stand corrected.

In any case, I'd have thought the TC would be one of the main points of discussion throughout the negotiations.
To be fair, contracts only offer both parties protection, if we wanted him and he wanted to come something could be sorted.  Zorc is a one club man though, been at Dortmund for over 30 years, I have my doubts he'd want to leave, but who knows ?

Offline spider-neil

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #179 on: October 7, 2015, 07:19:28 am »
I think over the past 2 years the turnover of players has been far too large which suggests either the wrong players were purchased in the first place or not enough emphasis was placed coaching and letting the players find their feet.

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #180 on: October 7, 2015, 07:20:21 am »
To be fair, contracts only offer both parties protection, if we wanted him and he wanted to come something could be sorted.  Zorc is a one club man though, been at Dortmund for over 30 years, I have my doubts he'd want to leave, but who knows ?

True true. You never know.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #181 on: October 7, 2015, 09:30:29 am »
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline capt k

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #182 on: October 7, 2015, 09:41:37 am »
This article seems to be more from 'Brendan's side'. Not a very powerful or winning argument mind.

http://www. take the hint and stop posting links to that xenophobic misogynistic Nazi sympathising excuse for journalism .co.uk/sport/football/article-3262490/Liverpool-s-head-technical-performance-Michael-Edwards-laptop-guru-did-number-Brendan-Rodgers.html

LOL love the autocorrect:))
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #183 on: October 7, 2015, 09:43:41 am »
You sure about that? Wasn't the TC set up after the debacle of summer 2012 - ie., Rodgers vetoing the Sturridge transfer (and wasn't Sturridge recovering from meningitis around this time?), letting Carroll go on loan (and blaming FSG for it being a "moneymen" decision), and not getting in Dempsey? Sahin was shopped around Europe at that point - I remember Arsenal were seriously looking at him - and I thought Rodgers / the Club managed to convince him to come (I know Xabi spoke glowingly about us).

As for him playing out of position, I don't really blame Rodgers for that: you can't really build your midfield around a CM on loan, and we didn't have a natural '10.' Rodgers basically had to make do and played Sahin there a few times, in an attempt to make the best out of a bad situation.

The problem was that he never played Sahin in the role that he was best at. And as a result the player never got to show his quality during his short stint with us before he was returned.

Offline ScottScott

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #184 on: October 7, 2015, 10:29:06 am »
I think over the past 2 years the turnover of players has been far too large which suggests either the wrong players were purchased in the first place or not enough emphasis was placed coaching and letting the players find their feet.

I would agree with this. I think that the TC and BR were too far apart on what the vision for the club was. We've brought in so many players only to let them go after a year when it turns out the don't really suit the league or haven't had any gametime

Hopefully that changes now

Offline redmark

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #185 on: October 7, 2015, 10:30:24 am »
You may as well be calling him a Brent-lite and commenting on his shiny teeth

Well no, because that's just personal abuse and not relevant to his job. How he interacted with the committee (and to what extent he or it is responsible for some failed transfers) is quite relevant.
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Offline guyko21

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #186 on: October 7, 2015, 11:35:08 am »
Barrett has been beating this drum for the past couple of years, as a means of showing Rodgers up as a fool.
Of course Rodgers had concerns about Sturridge. We're talking about a player with a history of injury problems, who had never really got going at any club, had been let go by City and the Chelsea, and who was believed by many to have an attitude problem.
It would have been downright negligent for a manager to not have concerns about a signing like that. Any signing is a gamble, and a signing like that is even more so.

I don't remember anyone on here predicting that Danny would hit 50 goals faster than any Liverpool player before him, or have the season he had in 2013/14. And given that he's been injured for about 40% of his time here, any concerns Rodgers might have had there have been shown to be reasonable. In fact had Danny not been injured last season, he'd probably still be in a job.

It's also fair to say that no other manager has got as much out of Sturridge than Rodgers, and I think he deserves some credit for that, instead of snidey digs about Dempsey.
This is a fair comment all round. 

It seems clear to me that our issues have been largely systemic.  The fact that two distinct sides have been briefing journos bears that out, and is of course a recipe for failure.  Basic management and common sense dictates that the manager decides how the club will play, and together with the scouts and money-men ratifies the players required to fit that playing system. 

The jostling for favour from the owners, reflects terribly on the owners for facilitating such a political structure in the first place.  At some point they also have to concede that football is not the same as baseball in terms of analysing players purely by numbers.  Granted there is always some merit in numbers, but in a nuanced sport like football they have to be 'qualitative' not just quantitative, and not all game-changing play can be identified by numbers.  For example how do you quantify intelligent running off the ball that releases space for a team-mate - or denies space to the opposition, etc?  Baseball is a binary sport - balls, strikes, hits, bases, runs, RBIs, catches.  Football is infinitely more nuanced, which is why a great scout should always trump an egghead. 

Rodgers has to be a 'decent' manager, he was a freak-occurrence slip away from being a legend - we cannot underestimate the magnitude of that, and it wasn't purely down to luck.  Ian Wright was completely disrespectful in his comments on MOTD2 where he said anyone could have managed the 2013/14 side to the title.  That's patent nonsense as many managers would never have allowed the type of free-flowing football that facilitated that run.  Rodgers deserves credit for unleashing the SSS that season and at his best is a pretty imaginative manager. 

However, where Rodgers did fail was with our defence, which is terribly inept and the root cause of most of our on-the-pitch problems.  Starting with a goalie who is a good shot-stopper but who does not command the penalty area, who spreads panic as a result, and who is a dreadful distributor of the ball.  Think how many attacks Pepe started with quick over-arm distribution, and then compare.  Migs doesn't have that vision and should have been sold by now.  I was shocked we weren't in for Begovic, but in any case we need a new goalie for starters.  Consider the impact of a De Gea ... without him ManU would not have made CL this season.  That's the importance of a truly great keeper, and compared to outfielders they're cheap at the price. 

With Klopp as manager, I believe his track record, strong presence and honest speaking will help the club find a path to a cohesive structure where all the moving parts are working as a team.  For that to happen FSG may have to wield the axe on a few more personnel. 
« Last Edit: October 7, 2015, 11:37:23 am by guyko21 »

Offline Gene

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Re: decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #187 on: October 7, 2015, 01:04:05 pm »
The problem for me is clear the transfer committee is largely made up of performance analysts whose role is to watch a game and push buttons on their laptop. We simply don't have experienced football men who know the game and understand how players fit together. Coming up with a shortlist of Eto and Balotelli for a side that was based on pace and running in behind is a perfect example of that.

To the laptop boys both Eto and Balo might have good stats but that is completely meaningless if they don't fit with what you already have. Rodgers was a young unproven manager who had a DoF at Reading, a DoF at Chelsea and very little say in transfers at Swansea so put him together with analysts and it was a recipe for disaster.

Where is the old school scouting network and experienced people who know the game.

Old scouting is being phased out and in my mind rightfully so. Analytics is the future.

The example you gave of analytics suggesting Eto and Balotelli for team based on its striker running in behind is not really an accurate representation of what analytics provides. Analytics provides you what you ask it for.




The above shows some of what analytics can provide. Frankly it can measure anything. You simply have to tell your analysts what you want and they can provide you with the data. If you tell them you want a striker who can find the goal and whose game is based on movement, they'd be able to identify that player faster than a traditional old school scout ever could. Furthermore, the use of analytics is highly adept at finding those outliers. The players that might be undervalued.

Instead what you describe to me highlights not a failure of analytics, but a failure of a unified strategy between Rodgers and the TC.
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Offline Johnathan

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #188 on: October 7, 2015, 01:27:03 pm »
Surely it should be the other way round? Perhaps buy players who fit the Manager's preferred way of playing?
Can you tell us what that way of playing is? Because he didn't know.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #189 on: October 7, 2015, 01:36:34 pm »
Surely it should be the other way round? Perhaps buy players who fit the Manager's preferred way of playing?

Sakho and Lovren remain the best example of the problem here, though. Going back over everything has said about defenders, we know pretty much what he wants from them:

- Athletic, quick and strong
- Win individual battles
- Comfortable on the ball
- Good passing

The committee gets* him Sakho (at a time, remember, when we really wanted Papadopoulous, but backed off due to his injuries). The manager insists on Lovren the summer after (for all we know, selling the idea as him partnering Sakho). He prefers Lovren over Sakho, and since the purchase of Lovren has played Sakho in a four in only a handful of games.

Worse, by playing a combination of Lovren (slow) and Skrtel (deep), he invalidates the choice of Moreno for left back (in a four), because his attacking instincts and average defensive positioning mean that a) even with his pace, he'll struggle to get back to where Skrtel is sitting on the edge of the box and b) if he gets beaten, the next line of defence is Lovren instead of Sakho.

The committee bought him the right defender. For some reason (his LMA and Talksport buddies sniggering about Sakho's apparent clumsiness?) he thought he knew better. And we paid £HorrificAmount for Dejan Lovren.


* And when I say 'gets', I mean that the committee (whether originating from scouts or analysts) recommends Sakho, based on the input of both functions, to which the manager agrees.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2015, 01:46:25 pm by redmark »
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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #190 on: October 7, 2015, 01:41:35 pm »
Old scouting is being phased out and in my mind rightfully so. Analytics is the future.

The example you gave of analytics suggesting Eto and Balotelli for team based on its striker running in behind is not really an accurate representation of what analytics provides. Analytics provides you what you ask it for.




The above shows some of what analytics can provide. Frankly it can measure anything. You simply have to tell your analysts what you want and they can provide you with the data. If you tell them you want a striker who can find the goal and whose game is based on movement, they'd be able to identify that player faster than a traditional old school scout ever could. Furthermore, the use of analytics is highly adept at finding those outliers. The players that might be undervalued.

Instead what you describe to me highlights not a failure of analytics, but a failure of a unified strategy between Rodgers and the TC.

To be honest it is a complete load of bollocks for me because football simply cannot be analysed in such a simple way. An attacking midfield player for instance might have great stats for goals, assists and key passes but that is only because he has players around him who do his donkey work for him, cover when he goes missing and compliment him. Take him out of that environment and your analysis becomes worthless.

We signed Adam, Downing and Henderson based on chance creation stats because they were the main men at their respective clubs and took the majority of their set pieces. As soon as they came to Liverpool they became peripheral to Gerrard and flopped. Stats mean the square root of fuck all without context and for me need to be a tool used by people with football nous and a deep understanding of the game.

Give analysts the keys to the Club and you will end up with a fantasy football team that looks great on paper but has no balance, no fluidity and crucially no way of playing or identity.
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #191 on: October 7, 2015, 01:44:46 pm »
I could see FSG's dilemma if this description is true, On the one hand, it's insane to have a TC buying players that the manager doesn't rate. On the other hand, if the TC indeed was making far superior picks then it would have been disastrous to skip the TC and give Brendan a carte blanche. He could've spent the entire budget on Southampton players.

In the end, we can't have a manager who doesn't trust competent people that are there to help him. It's impossible to micromanage such a big organization.

Offline Gene

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #192 on: October 7, 2015, 01:55:04 pm »
To be honest it is a complete load of bollocks for me because football simply cannot be analysed in such a simple way. An attacking midfield player for instance might have great stats for goals, assists and key passes but that is only because he has players around him who do his donkey work for him, cover when he goes missing and compliment him. Take him out of that environment and your analysis becomes worthless.

We signed Adam, Downing and Henderson based on chance creation stats because they were the main men at their respective clubs and took the majority of their set pieces. As soon as they came to Liverpool they became peripheral to Gerrard and flopped. Stats mean the square root of fuck all without context and for me need to be a tool used by people with football nous and a deep understanding of the game.

Give analysts the keys to the Club and you will end up with a fantasy football team that looks great on paper but has no balance, no fluidity and crucially no way of playing or identity.

Agreed for the most part.

I just believe analytics in my mind are more valuable than scouts these days. Analysts aren't there to put together a side. They're simply there to identify the type of players you want. It's up to the staff of the club to then decide if the player will fit into the side. Analysts will also be able to provide you more data on more players than your scouting network can. At the end of the day it's just a tool to identify the player. The manager, DOF, head scout, tea lady... still needs to put eyes on the player.
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Offline Loo Pan

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #193 on: October 7, 2015, 01:55:40 pm »
It seems this is the thread where its free reign to put the knife in to Rodgers despite no-one knowing what happened with any of our transfers (and I'm including that prick Barrett in this as well)

Seems to be a hatchet job on a manager who has been nothing but respectful to the club, city and fans throughout his 3 and a bit years here but now he's gone it's daggers out, slating him for things nobody knows about

You may as well be calling him a Brent-lite and commenting on his shiny teeth

I haven't got a problem with his teeth. His old teeth were shit, and he needed some new ones.

He was going to be under the spotlight a lot more at Liverpool, and who wants to face the cameras with a gob full of manky gnashers?

But his eye for a player, and his tactical and coaching acumen are all fair game when it comes to the final analysis that is taking place.

Offline Johnathan

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #194 on: October 7, 2015, 02:08:17 pm »
Didn't the Boston Globe do a hatchet job on a departing Red Sox coach? Many commentators called them out for it. It might not be beyond FSG to do a more subtle version of it.
Players were drinking during games and they weren't the only ones reporting that, so it wasn't exactly uncalled for.
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Offline Rome 84

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #195 on: October 7, 2015, 02:43:02 pm »
It seems this is the thread where its free reign to put the knife in to Rodgers despite no-one knowing what happened with any of our transfers (and I'm including that prick Barrett in this as well)

Seems to be a hatchet job on a manager who has been nothing but respectful to the club, city and fans throughout his 3 and a bit years here but now he's gone it's daggers out, slating him for things nobody knows about

You may as well be calling him a Brent-lite and commenting on his shiny teeth
Nice.

Offline SP

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #196 on: October 7, 2015, 02:46:55 pm »
To be honest it is a complete load of bollocks for me because football simply cannot be analysed in such a simple way. An attacking midfield player for instance might have great stats for goals, assists and key passes but that is only because he has players around him who do his donkey work for him, cover when he goes missing and compliment him. Take him out of that environment and your analysis becomes worthless.

We signed Adam, Downing and Henderson based on chance creation stats because they were the main men at their respective clubs and took the majority of their set pieces. As soon as they came to Liverpool they became peripheral to Gerrard and flopped. Stats mean the square root of fuck all without context and for me need to be a tool used by people with football nous and a deep understanding of the game.

Give analysts the keys to the Club and you will end up with a fantasy football team that looks great on paper but has no balance, no fluidity and crucially no way of playing or identity.

There is nothing wrong with using stats and analysis to identify players to fit a role. However the way that the Transfer Committee worked was screwed because those roles were never defined. They identified players of value who could fill niches, but there never appeared to be that global vision that tied the pieces together. We had lots of pieces of jigsaws. All very fine in their own right, but they just did not interlock correctly.

Long term, you want the club to settle on a house style, and then the recruitment process identifies and obtains players that fit that system at all levels. So you can promote from more junior teams and the players just slot in. Using metrics to sift potential players to find ones that fit seems like an eminently sensible thing to do. But it still requires that judgement and vision thing to check that the pieces do actually fit.

Offline Agent99

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #197 on: October 7, 2015, 02:47:28 pm »
Sakho and Lovren remain the best example of the problem here, though. Going back over everything has said about defenders, we know pretty much what he wants from them:

- Athletic, quick and strong
- Win individual battles
- Comfortable on the ball
- Good passing

The committee gets* him Sakho (at a time, remember, when we really wanted Papadopoulous, but backed off due to his injuries). The manager insists on Lovren the summer after (for all we know, selling the idea as him partnering Sakho). He prefers Lovren over Sakho, and since the purchase of Lovren has played Sakho in a four in only a handful of games.

Worse, by playing a combination of Lovren (slow) and Skrtel (deep), he invalidates the choice of Moreno for left back (in a four), because his attacking instincts and average defensive positioning mean that a) even with his pace, he'll struggle to get back to where Skrtel is sitting on the edge of the box and b) if he gets beaten, the next line of defence is Lovren instead of Sakho.

The committee bought him the right defender. For some reason (his LMA and Talksport buddies sniggering about Sakho's apparent clumsiness?) he thought he knew better. And we paid £HorrificAmount for Dejan Lovren.


* And when I say 'gets', I mean that the committee (whether originating from scouts or analysts) recommends Sakho, based on the input of both functions, to which the manager agrees.
Good post mate. I'm sure I read somewhere that the reason he preferred Lovren was due to his aerial ability and the fact he tends to attack the ball in the air better than Sakho. Still mystified by the Mignolet signing though.

Offline trimore

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Re: Decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #198 on: October 7, 2015, 08:31:18 pm »
I don't like the bashing of FSG in some of these posts. Yes they didn't understand the game at when they bought it, but that was part of the appeal for them, getting to learn something new, challenging themselves. Why can't we give them several years to learn all the intricacies and nuances? To make mistakes and learn from them with out getting angry about it. Yes it cost us some time and trophies but in the long run it is better than us pulling a Leeds.

And yes, I know, there might have been an owner who had just as much business knowledge and resources as them but with more football knowledge at the time. But as I have learned more from business over the last few years, the time constraint over needing to sell the club before it was declared bankrupt probably lowered the amount of buyers significantly. As most business men would want at least a full year to analysis the situation before committing that time and money into anything, let alone a dysfunctional premier league club.

So who should have the vision at the top of the committee? A DOF isn't a bad shout, but that has it's own risks (they're are limited amount of Begiristains out there). A manager that is not too similar to the last would be fine, I don't think it's that hard for a manger to convince this committee into doing something, they come across as reasonable people if not entirely competent, but those things can be fixed.

The problem for me wasn't Rodger's strategic vision for the club. It fundamentally was his need to sign domestic players for some prideful reasons. He hamstrung his own vision of playing possession football with the ball and having a full press and counter attack quickly when not in possession by insisting on playing players who he has personally observed live their technique.

I look forward to having a manager who has vision but is not constrained by his pride like that and willing to use as many foreign players as needed, honestly even if it isn't Klopp, though it will helps draw players to the club if it is.

I am sure FSG learned from this mess and will apply it to future business decisions.   
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: decent Tony Barrett interview here
« Reply #199 on: October 7, 2015, 08:44:33 pm »
One point which needs to be made, regardless of Rodgers supposed problems in player identification is that systemic failure to sign players everyone agreed should be a priority.  This has knock on effects which makes all sides retreat to their own provincial belief systems.

The inability to get the players everyone wanted: Henry Mkhit, Willian, Diego Costa, Alexis Sanchez leads to fragmented attitudes, lack of cohesion about how to move forward. 

When I see the list of players that Rodgers supposedly called for, rarely is there mention of the context.  This misses that the entire club bears responsibility for ---- this type of compartmentalization and lack of accountability is about avoidance.  Rodgers, in many cases, was attempting to find solutions to how he wanted to work.  How many of the TC can honestly say they wanted the same players --- ultimately if this relationship soured (clearly in public it did), then they bear responsibility too. 

It is possible that one can be correct about a player personnel decision, but be wrong about the direction of the club - vice versa. 

While the TC does not want to broadcast their internal workings, they have drawn more attention precisely because of this binary (Rodgers or TC arguments and blame shifting), when clearly all sides sucked during this period. 

ALL FUCKING SIDES   
If it wasn't for the TC blocking some of Brendan's moves we'd have a pretty shocking squad at the moment (Dempsey, Tate, Williams, etc). Granted, the fact Ayre or Gordon couldn't find a working solution with Rodgers in 3 years makes them seem incompetent too, but I'm finding it hard to blame the "stats guys" as they've for the most part been responsible for signing our best players (including Suarez, given that Edwards joined during Comolli's tenure btw).