Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1  (Read 11701 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« on: October 4, 2014, 07:48:47 pm »
Three points. Ooh, the luxury. Remember this feeling? Because let's face it, as football fans we are a fickle lot of drama queens and club spirit can often be an illusion created by winning. We have short memories and shorter patience levels. I am grimly glad of these three points, I will keep them and take them out later to look at again. A draw or a loss and I think we might be in full meltdown mode now, with anguished calls for the manager's head.

We still don't look right, mind. Any team playing us at the moment feels they will score and they're usually right. Today's example was never a penalty but they had enough chances to deserve a goal anyway. But we scored one more than them and that usually does the trick in football, Gary, at the end of the day.

Standout performers were Henderson and Lallana, Johnson looked muscular in his cameo, both Lambert and Balotelli put in a shift and overall we looked a little more menacing, a little more pressing. Not quite there yet, though. It was interesting that the manager put Lucas where Gerrard was when he came on and Gerrard much further forward and sure enough he and Mario linked up pretty well, a combo your OP certainly hadn't considered.

Anyway. Top six. Better.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #1 on: October 6, 2014, 10:24:36 pm »
Thanks mate, I feel that the team feels light in midfield apart from Henderson and whilst we have the quality up front, the link to it is all silky soccer and not as much substance as I'd like.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #2 on: October 6, 2014, 11:12:12 pm »
Thanks mate, I feel that the team feels light in midfield apart from Henderson and whilst we have the quality up front, the link to it is all silky soccer and not as much substance as I'd like.

Think we've missed Coutinho's contribution in that respect so far this year, when he is on song, he carries the ball well is direct, can play a pass and move a one two. Really hope he gets back to what appeared to be some great form pre-season as he's a great catalyst for bring midfield into attack.

Speaking deeper on the pitch, i've a lot of optimism for Can as he clearly has a lot of strong attributes in that area and think he could help provide good balance and a platform to develop a strong partnership with Henderson in that area of the pitch, time will tell... but it will be good to have all options back to try and find the right formula.

Great to get back to winning ways, the team will feel better for it. I think we're still trying to find what would ordinarily be considered our strongest set up both in personnel and formation, and its not been an easy task for Brendan without having all options available to him just yet.

Looked much better though against the Brom, which is hopefully a sign of things moving back in the right direction.
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Offline bodhisattva

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #3 on: October 6, 2014, 11:35:13 pm »
some interesting tactical questions thrown up by this game, the positional switch of Gerrard being the obvious one.
one thing we certainly learnt if we didn't already know it is that Henderson has to be given license to get forward and make those runs into the box because when he did that regularly we looked much more of a goal threat, so we have to find a way for him to do that without it leaving us vulnerable through the middle, whether that means playing someone else as a DM or managing Gerrards minutes in that position im not sure, but given the personnel we currently have id be inclined to do what we did on Saturday and bring some fresh legs on in that position for the last 20-25 when he tends to tire and move him further forward if he has to stay on the pitch because he did offer us something different when he made that switch and he linked up well with Balotelli.

Still lots of problems with the team but i do think personnel changes will help with that especially getting Sturridge and Allen back.

Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #4 on: October 6, 2014, 11:42:52 pm »
Thanks mate, I feel that the team feels light in midfield apart from Henderson and whilst we have the quality up front, the link to it is all silky soccer and not as much substance as I'd like.

I think that's an interesting point with a fair bit of truth to it. Coutinho, Lallana and Sterling are all class players with sublime skill and a great work rate. There's no shortage of talent there but (metaphorically speaking) putting lightweights up against heavyweights must be having an effect on some level. And I think that's starting to rear its head a little with the change in style of our strikers. Both Lambert and Balotelli have great hold up play and are good forwards but their movement isn't creating the same space this season.  And without that the defenses remains compact and out speed of attack has noticeably slowed down. That's caused our diminutive attacking three to be running at a well set defense, and it's creating situations where they are worked off the ball far too easily.

It's interesting then that against Westbrom we played Henderson as the player behind the striker and Coutinho seemingly a bit deeper. I think Hendo's powerful running and intelligent movement was at the heart of almost all our good play and it's something Rodgers should take note of when Lambert or Balotelli are up front without Sturridge. I'd be inclined to look at a 4-4-2 diamond again once Sturridge is back but for in his absence I think Henderson or perhaps Gerrard have to play behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1.

Which brings us to Gerrard's brilliant cameo which looked a throwback to the Gerrard/Torres partnership in 08/09. For my money Gerrard brought Balotelli to life linking up with quick pass and move football, pulling the defense out of position (eg: the back heel) but also a mountain of work closing down. To me there seemed to create a noticeable rise in Balotelli's confidence who reminds me of Torres in terms of attributes. The question though becomes how much of that can Gerrard do?  could he last 90, could he do it week in week out without burning out? My gut feeling is no but it's a cameo to take note of and something to consider as a change up perhaps when he's getting man marked, or as a surprise tactic. For my money, when Sturridge is injured it's a tactic I'd strongly consider.

The other point of interest I thought was Johnson. I thought he looked superb in the brief time he played. He looks to me like he's shed a few kg's and had an extra pep in his step. It's a lot easier to do I suppose as a sub when everyone else is tired but if that same energy is reflected in training I'd strongly consider putting him straight back in the team.  For me it's never been about ability for Johnson, it's a question of focus and intent. Many have said his legs are gone but for me it was his desire.  It's a bit like a marriage in a rut. If the spark has reignited (as I hope) then he could be a really important player for us.
« Last Edit: October 6, 2014, 11:45:34 pm by DanA »
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #5 on: October 7, 2014, 12:23:06 am »
Some good posts here, along with the spot-on OP.

I just want to make a couple of points about Coutinho. I don't think he's been that poor, but he's been a bit mismanaged and a victim of circumstance, and here's why:

His biggest skills are his ability to run at people, and his great through-balls. When he's given the space to play and forwards are making runs beyond CB's in front of him there are few better than him.

On the flip side, he's far less effective in games where space is at a premium (eg. Aston Villa) as he isn't able to make runs and 20 yard through-balls.

One of the main reasons why he's struggled to find space for himself is because Balotelli and Lambert both like to come short, making it easier for opposition defenders to compress the space he would normally run into. The lack of movement beyond defenders by both Lambert and Balotelli creates a lack of forward passing options, forcing him to either play simple sideways passes, or hold onto the ball too long, as he did against Basel who were there for the taking if we'd only had someone running beyond their defense.

I'm convinced that we'll see the best of Coutinho again once Sturridge is back, as it will solve two of the aforementioned issues:

1. Give him more space infront of defences, as defenders are more preoccupied with protecting the space behind them than the space infront.
2. Create many more passing options for Coutinho. This includes those passing lanes to others (eg. to Sterling) that are created as an effect of Sturridge's runs.

Maybe I'm being to simplistic and idealistic, but I don't think the team is far off being fluid again, they just need that last piece of the jigsaw to allow all the other pieces to fall into place. Or has everyone forgotten how good we looked away to Spurs in Sturridge's last match for us?

Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #6 on: October 7, 2014, 01:02:05 am »
Some good posts here, along with the spot-on OP.

I just want to make a couple of points about Coutinho. I don't think he's been that poor, but he's been a bit mismanaged and a victim of circumstance, and here's why:

His biggest skills are his ability to run at people, and his great through-balls. When he's given the space to play and forwards are making runs beyond CB's in front of him there are few better than him.

On the flip side, he's far less effective in games where space is at a premium (eg. Aston Villa) as he isn't able to make runs and 20 yard through-balls.

One of the main reasons why he's struggled to find space for himself is because Balotelli and Lambert both like to come short, making it easier for opposition defenders to compress the space he would normally run into. The lack of movement beyond defenders by both Lambert and Balotelli creates a lack of forward passing options, forcing him to either play simple sideways passes, or hold onto the ball too long, as he did against Basel who were there for the taking if we'd only had someone running beyond their defense.

I'm convinced that we'll see the best of Coutinho again once Sturridge is back, as it will solve two of the aforementioned issues:

1. Give him more space infront of defences, as defenders are more preoccupied with protecting the space behind them than the space infront.
2. Create many more passing options for Coutinho. This includes those passing lanes to others (eg. to Sterling) that are created as an effect of Sturridge's runs.

Maybe I'm being to simplistic and idealistic, but I don't think the team is far off being fluid again, they just need that last piece of the jigsaw to allow all the other pieces to fall into place. Or has everyone forgotten how good we looked away to Spurs in Sturridge's last match for us?

Completely agree with the Coutinho bit. I also don't think we were too far away from being fluid even without Sturridge. Rodgers I think is manager  who tinkers eventually getting things right.  I felt like a few break through occurred against Westbrom in terms of the way we played with Henderson and Gerrard as no.10's and I think another week or two of getting that right would have seen us play some fantastic football.

Sturridge returning though will probably see us return to the diamond and hopefully playing as we did against Tottenham. I suspect we've got a bit of a plan b though now should Sturridge get injured again.
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Offline Another Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #7 on: October 7, 2014, 01:58:54 am »
OP made an astute observation about Gerrard playing higher up the pitch when Lucas came on. Gerrard and Lucas as a double pivot just doesn't work for whatever reason, perhaps they think too alike? It was a clever tactical change by Brendan and another sign that he's a manager who is willing to experiment and learn rather than stick his head in the ground. Make no mistake, he's made mistakes, but he is a forward thinking manager who relishes the challenge of solving our problems. Compare that to a manager (who shall remain nameless) who chooses to play a slow, creative midfielder out wide and hope for the best.

I've never bought into the idea that Johnson is finished. The ability has always been there, it's mainly been a question of fitness. I can't remember the last time Glen had a back up. Now that we do, hopefully we'll see the best of him.

Offline B0151?

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #8 on: October 7, 2014, 03:30:16 am »
Rodgers got it spot on I felt. The line-up, substitutions, everything. Only questionable thing was Lambert over Balotelli, but to not give Lambert a chance when Balotelli hasn't hit it off immediately would probably be even more damaging to his confidence than having to take him off after another slow performance.

Gerrard further forward was niice. Given it was such a short cameo, at home to West Brom, I don't think you can infer anything more than it was really interesting to see. Henderson and Coutinho ahead of Gerrard was the correct and sensible decision. I personally don't think that Hendo being more attacking than Coutinho was a deliberate ploy, think they are both meant to be attacking players in those roles. What I would say is that given Coutinho is on a bit of a low, playing deeper allowed him to just keep it simple and work hard which is something he is very adept at doing, meanwhile Henderson clearly relished the freedom from the double pivot and did everything he could to impress.

Not going to talk about Lovren and Skrtel. I'm not very good at analysing defence and I just really want a partnership to hit it off so we can quell some of this uncertainty, both of the defence and BR's handling of it. Fingers crossed.

Haven't spoken about Lallana but he was man of the match. Sterling continues to be a main threat even when he's not fully there. I think it's fair to say that he has the best 6 or 7 out of 10s in our team. Even when he's not performing, you just never want to take him off. He still has his speed, he still has his dribbling. We forgive the losses of composure because he adds so much.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2014, 03:32:37 am by Bakez0151 »

Offline Gerrard#1

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #9 on: October 7, 2014, 03:48:22 am »
I fell asleep before the game and woke up 20 mins in. What formation did we start with? as I know Gerrard was playing a lot further up then usual especially in the last 10-20 mins of the game.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #10 on: October 7, 2014, 03:56:04 am »
Even though I'm outstandingly inept when discussing tactics I feel a strong urge to show everyone just how inept I truly am.

When we have a fully-fit squad - which hopefully will be in two weeks time - couldn't we play the diamond with Gerrard, Can, Allen and Henderson. We know Gerrard can't play the advanced role for ninety minutes but with his experience he could decide when he wants to go forward to link up with Balotelli, Sturridge and Henderson, leaving Can or Allen to drop into the hole. With Sturridge and Henderson making runs beyond the opposition back line and the two overlapping full backs stretching the play, this would leave Balotelli and Gerrard the opportunity to find possible gaps. Can showed against Spurs that he can make strong forward runs when he created the opportunity for Sterling's sublime dribble and subsequent cock-up.

Obviously this means having Lallana, Markovic, Sterling and Coutinho on the bench, but with two of those players settling in (finding houses, adapting to the Prem in Markovic's case, etc) I don't think it would be a bad idea to give them more time to gel. Sterling is still young and my fear is he may go the way of Owen and Torres. I do feel their injuries stemmed from our over-reliance on them and not being able to give them the required amount of rest.

After writing this and then reading it back I've decided to beat myself senseless with a copy of 'Everton - The Glory Years', possibly the shortest DVD ever made.

 
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #11 on: October 7, 2014, 06:13:13 am »
Coutinho for me had his most accomplished performance of the season, if not the most creative you'll ever see from him. He took great care of the ball in the centre of midfield, kept it simple and played an understated role for which I don't think he's received any praise. While he was dwarfed by Henderson to the extent the later seemed to be the number ten (he wasn't, we had a 1-2 midfield), he actually proved an effective link between Gerrard and the attack, giving Gerrard a short option.

In time I think Coutinho will prove best in the centre of midfield, not as a number ten or a wide forward, and as he adjusts to the role I think he'll have a greater creative influence. He can be a terrier when he chooses, making him a valuable part of the press. I was disappointed he was subbed, if anything, and while he is obviously low on confidence to me Saturday was a step up from him.

Offline edeyj

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #12 on: October 7, 2014, 08:25:31 am »
I think a light bulb went on in this game when Gerrard went forward. Do we really need him to be on the pitch for the full 90 minutes every match or can we afford to use him more strategically in this forward role for shorter periods?

I don't think he plays the defensive mid role that well but the move forward gave him more licence to create. It's a difficult one for Rodgers to solve and he has to have the balls to make the right choices with Stevie.

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #13 on: October 7, 2014, 11:38:31 am »
Early days yet but you could see the potential there to add some fear back into our attack where the opposition know games at Anfield should be a case of lets not concede too many boys. We have started off the season at a very light jog as Brendan must be guessing if we do well in the CL & Cups then that extra 12 - 15 games will take a lot out of us if we jump off the blocks right now. Makes sense I guess as long as we stay within touch of the top 4 then our form btw Jan - May should trump others.

We need more runners into the box if we consistently start one striker and with the young legs out there the likes of Henderson, Sterling, Lallana & Co should be like bees on honey when in around the box. There was a sign of things to come with Lallana's goal & Henderson's as if we can add that goal threat in most games from our midfielders then we will go along way in replacing you know who. Considering West Brom always give us a game lately then 3 points will do nicely before the international break. The lads at the back still give us the willies but Simon came up with the goods when required & Johnson now back then watch out there will be clean sheets every month ;)
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Offline Mingle

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #14 on: October 7, 2014, 12:17:17 pm »
I think a light bulb went on in this game when Gerrard went forward. Do we really need him to be on the pitch for the full 90 minutes every match or can we afford to use him more strategically in this forward role for shorter periods?

I don't think he plays the defensive mid role that well but the move forward gave him more licence to create. It's a difficult one for Rodgers to solve and he has to have the balls to make the right choices with Stevie.

Like many others, Ive been crying out for this... he could still destroy teams if he were further forward. And to be honest, Im shocked Rodgers put him there... I thought Brendan had a mental block in putting him anywhere near the oppos goal!! he doesnt have to do it for 90mins either!
 


 
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Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #15 on: October 7, 2014, 12:18:00 pm »
I think a light bulb went on in this game when Gerrard went forward. Do we really need him to be on the pitch for the full 90 minutes every match or can we afford to use him more strategically in this forward role for shorter periods?

I don't think he plays the defensive mid role that well but the move forward gave him more licence to create. It's a difficult one for Rodgers to solve and he has to have the balls to make the right choices with Stevie.

I think Stevie's show at the end was a little false and I'm not sure we can read too much into it at this stage. There was lots of space at the end and Stevie got a sudden burst of energy that he hasn't been able to show so far this season.

Of course, we all know what he is capable of but the main issue is who sits as the pivot. If Lucas can do the job then we have a credible alternative, assuming that Can is going to take a while to settle (because of his age and injury).

The main positive from the game is that everyone has been lifted by the result. It was a much better performance overall (though still below-par) and the reaction after conceding was vastly improved compared to midweek (which upset me the most about the defeat).

We just have to use this to grab some more points at QPR and then look to ignite our season against Real
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Offline free_at_last

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #16 on: October 7, 2014, 12:19:31 pm »

After writing this and then reading it back I've decided to beat myself senseless with a copy of 'Everton - The Glory Years', possibly the shortest DVD ever made.
That reminds me of the classic Champions League DVD releases. Ours was "One night in May" while Everton's was "Two nights in August".
To stay on topic , Gerrard high up the pitch at the end was a refreshing change from defending a lead on our 6 yard line but I think we should have been taking it to the corner flag with a couple of minutes to go rather than going for the 3rd.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #17 on: October 7, 2014, 12:30:19 pm »
I think we should have been taking it to the corner flag with a couple of minutes to go rather than going for the 3rd.

As did Hendo, if you look at the clip of Gerrard's last cross!

I thought it was pretty positive overall.

v Everton we were by far the better team, and deserved a win, but it wasn;t to be. The performance was decent enough though.

We had a much harder time vs Basle, a CL standard team.

West Brom, we upped our level again and got what we deserved, we did let them have a few chances but were much the better team. Lallana was excellent, his movement and close control are wonderful to see. I'm not going mad over the 'Gerrard further forward' thing, he hardly scores any goals from open play any more even when he is in the right place to do so, there's nothing urgent for me about a need to get him further forward. Him and Balotelli did seem to dovetail well though, however Sterling and Balotelli need to get together and both press the red 'sync' button as they are different wavelengths at the moment. Lambert was alright, Moreno was tidy but left some massive gaps a couple of times, luckily West Brom failed to capitalise. Johnson looked good when he came on, personally I'm glad to have him back whatever the snide Twittersphere may say about him.

Brendan is obviously working hard to improve us and I have confidence he will return us to the levels of last season (or as close as you can get without the Cannibal) maybe even as soon as after the international break. Allen and Sturridge returning will give us more control in the middle and more pace up front - two strikers and the diamond perhaps again?
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #18 on: October 7, 2014, 01:26:22 pm »
I think Stevie's show at the end was a little false and I'm not sure we can read too much into it at this stage. There was lots of space at the end and Stevie got a sudden burst of energy that he hasn't been able to show so far this season.

How much was that 'burst of energy' because he didn't have a game for 2 weeks and didn't have to manage his recovery for a game a few days later.

I liked seeing it, but not sure how often we'll see it deployed again.

I'm hoping that the impetus it gave us gives Brendan some food for thought and some stuff to work on in training over the next couple of weeks though.

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #19 on: October 7, 2014, 03:31:28 pm »
Very relieved about the result. Because i've been banned for weeks since my anger at Villa, i've had to sit on a lot of thoughts.

So i'm gonna say for me, theres a two fold problem this season. One is that Rogers has over complicated his team selections, persisting with this 1 up front formation which just doesnt work with both the personnell we have or the philosophy of the side and two our lack of central midfielders and why the heck we didnt buy at least one more proven midfielder with an engine.

For the first 30-40 we really struggled, we were slow, ponderous and wasteful. Players like Coutinho need runners, when we play one up top we lose the roaming role of Sterling or Lallana and our main striker is isolated. We stop running beyond the ball carrier and we become static as a result. Also Lallana and Sterling our pushed wide into unfamiliar roles, or at the very least, roles that fail to get the best out of them.

It was only second half that we started to look a bit of a threat, the passing was crisper and we were getting more runners forward.

I think Gerrard playing further forward is our short term answer to the missing midfielders in Allen and Can, which would allow Lucas to play his natural role and Gerrard his. And what a difference to Balotelli! Having players close to him really makes a difference, it brings out the best of him.

I think signings in January are a must. We need at least 1 or 2 midfielders who have legs in them. I like Allen but he's injury prone. Gerrard is getting on, Lucas seems unfancied, Can is unproven and needs to adjust. Only Henderson is consistently available and consistent in form. We need more options imho.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #20 on: October 7, 2014, 04:14:21 pm »
I guess Walshy we need a bang on starter soon to be brought into the centre as you could make a case that Lucas & SG are on the way out pretty much, Can needs a couple of seasons to be bedded in, Allen has been a hit or miss so in may ways one if not two CM positions are up for grab soon enough. Only Henderson of the newbies has really thrived and even then he still has room for improvement to really shine at a CL level. Its a bit harsh on the current lads but when you had Masch, Alonso & SG all in their prime (mid 20s here) then our current midfield is a pale comparison.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #21 on: October 7, 2014, 10:39:15 pm »
Some notable moments from Saturday....the level of tension and nerves where highlighted when Glen Johnson coming on as sub was welcomed as someone who would bring reassurance and solidity to our defensive frailty(!!)....and the groan that met the four minutes extra time was akin to the six minute addition at the Chelsea 2005 CL final.....we were all tense....40,000 plus 11 shitting themselves....how could it not affect the players...the relief at the end and punching of air by the players said it all...they have felt it.....but a win  and lets move forward....but I think two moments in the game went upraised...Stirling being bundled over ( deffo a pen) and getting right back up in a split second to see the opportunity to pass the ball...what an attitude...fantastic...and another moment...maybe not worthy of praise by some...but Couthino cynically blocking a WBA player in their half , to prevent them attaching and helping us back on the attack....there hasn't been enough of that in our game...Stirling gets it, with breaking up counter attacks when he loses a ball...a sneaky foul in the opposition half is usually only punished with a free kick and no booking ( not in the CL I noted!) but buys enough time to get ourselves organised...so here is the lesson from the game....defend from the front line!...........'cos our fucking backline cant!!

..one final point Lallanas goal was pure.....Suarez!

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #22 on: October 7, 2014, 11:34:23 pm »
Just don't see what there is to mull over.

We haven't had the outlet that all teams need since soft arse Hodgson fucked us up. Consequently we've struggled. Simple as that. The return of Sturridge will fix it.




Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #23 on: October 7, 2014, 11:42:59 pm »
Just don't see what there is to mull over.

We haven't had the outlet that all teams need since soft arse Hodgson fucked us up. Consequently we've struggled. Simple as that. The return of Sturridge will fix it.


You honestly think it's that simple Timbo?

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #24 on: October 7, 2014, 11:43:56 pm »
You honestly think it's that simple Timbo?


Too fuckin right I do.

Everything else is just bollocks.


Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #25 on: October 7, 2014, 11:46:17 pm »
Gerrard was great to see in his old role. His strengths were all really weighted towards attacking even at his peak. It really makes me question whether rather than dropping back he should be kept in the attacking role where he was our best ever player, in my opinion. Henderson's leg work can cover him on the defensive side and he can be the icing on our attacking cake. It really was a great moment, he seemed to grow in stature when he moved into the role.

As for the game, the result is so important. In that situation a win is a win is a win. Nothing was as important. In the end we got it and didn't play too bad in the end. Lallana stood out. He looked a player who could justify his fee. He added that extra creativity we've needed. He linked up especially well with Henderson. Hopefully we can have them both back fit after the internationals

Lambert and Lovren still seem to be lacking the confidence to believe in their ability in the red shirt. It seems to be weighing on them in different ways. Lambert looks nervous and unsure of himself. On the other hand, Lovren seems to be trying too hard and doing too much in order to prove himself. He needs to calm down and play his natural game. At this moment in time I can't see how Sakho isn't playing in this team as it helps steady our movement forwards from the back with his passing and giving Lovren a break to earn his way into the side could really help him personally.

Altogether it seems as though things are coming together and I think we can push hard at the end if the season to challenge for the title but it will take time and work before this team really shows it's class as a team.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #26 on: October 7, 2014, 11:51:23 pm »
it will take time and work before this team really shows it's class as a team.

Bet it doesn't take time.

Bet the return of Sturridge will see an instant and dramatic return to form for the team.

 :)

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #27 on: October 8, 2014, 07:39:59 am »
Quote
I think signings in January are a must. We need at least 1 or 2 midfielders who have legs in them. I like Allen but he's injury prone. Gerrard is getting on, Lucas seems unfancied, Can is unproven and needs to adjust. Only Henderson is consistently available and consistent in form. We need more options imho.



We're not out of options, though. Nor should appearances or conjectures to the effect that this or that player is 'unfancied' be made into arguments as to our lack of options in midfield.

A manager who brought Brad Smith on in the 60th minute and 2-1 down vs CFC to replace Allen cannot possibly be said to have any legitimate basis to claim that he's 'out of options' in midfield because he does not 'fancy' Lucas (or so people claim).
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Offline Petadroli

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #28 on: October 8, 2014, 07:47:06 am »

We're not out of options, though. Nor should appearances or conjectures to the effect that this or that player is 'unfancied' be made into arguments as to our lack of options in midfield.

A manager who brought Brad Smith on in the 60th minute and 2-1 down vs CFC to replace Allen cannot possibly be said to have any legitimate basis to claim that he's 'out of options' in midfield because he does not 'fancy' Lucas (or so people claim).

I agree with you that we do have options now. But at that particular away game he certainly didn't. Look at the bench: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25482699 .

BR could have brought on Rossiter, Luis Alberto or Brad Smith. None of those would have made any difference anyways, so he gave Brad Smith an appearance.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #29 on: October 8, 2014, 07:51:14 am »
I think Stevie's show at the end was a little false and I'm not sure we can read too much into it at this stage. There was lots of space at the end and Stevie got a sudden burst of energy that he hasn't been able to show so far this season.

Of course, we all know what he is capable of but the main issue is who sits as the pivot. If Lucas can do the job then we have a credible alternative, assuming that Can is going to take a while to settle (because of his age and injury).

The main positive from the game is that everyone has been lifted by the result. It was a much better performance overall (though still below-par) and the reaction after conceding was vastly improved compared to midweek (which upset me the most about the defeat).

We just have to use this to grab some more points at QPR and then look to ignite our season against Real

Lucas can do the job, Allen can do the job, Can probably can do the job of "sit[ting] at the pivot". I don't understand, in all honesty and without any desire to antagonize anyone,  why this is even a worry or a possible point of debate.
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #30 on: October 8, 2014, 08:01:12 am »
Lucas and Allen of course can, Can can maybe not...

I think Can will be a Yaya Toure type who looks best powering forward. Big, powerful and technical all combine to be a forward running midfielder for me, arguably would be wasted sat deep though that doesn't mean he wouldn't do a decent job there.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #31 on: October 8, 2014, 08:06:11 am »
Lucas and Allen of course can, Can can maybe not...

I think Can will be a Yaya Toure type who looks best powering forward. Big, powerful and technical all combine to be a forward running midfielder for me, arguably would be wasted sat deep though that doesn't mean he wouldn't do a decent job there.

The actual Yaya Toure didn't look too bad playing at the base/pivot of a 1-2 midfield for Barcelona. I hope Can develops into a Yaya Toure. That'd be awesome.
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Offline wordroam

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #32 on: October 8, 2014, 12:23:52 pm »
The 'return of Sturridge' won't fix it.

At best it will just ease the passage. These are  'team (inc. manager)' issues that need to be worked through. I also wonder if the World Cup hasn't helped.

I was happy for Lallana, but even happier for the string of passes that lead to the goal. Also Gerrard and Couthino might be the keys to unlocking Balliotelli - to be regular champions we need brains as well as devastating pace in attack. Another illustration of this is the way Manquillo seemed to have solved the Johnson problem - now Johnson seems to have solved the Manquillo problem !

I also started to realise looking at the tactical switches and substitutions that because Rodgers now actually has choice, he will be under more pressure because this season he actually has choices to make.

Just praying we can accumulate points while we are ascending the curve...




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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #33 on: October 8, 2014, 12:35:53 pm »
The 'return of Sturridge' won't fix it.
It's difficult to discuss this assertion/opinion when you don't back it up with any reasoning.

From my point of view their are two main reasons that Daniel will improve our current play.

1. He's a willing runner, he'll stretch our play, providing an outlet for our midfielders to pass to, whilst simultaneously hemming back the oppostion defence. This will open up the midfield areas, allowing us to retain possesion better.

2. He's magic and can make something happen from nothing. The lad has the X Factor, this means he'll occupy defences and score goals when he's being given barely a sniff.

Pretty basic analysis, but as the Spurs game proved only this season, we're a better team with him in the side.

EDIT: And Can can!

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #34 on: October 8, 2014, 01:11:27 pm »
The 'return of Sturridge' won't fix it.


How much there is to 'fix' is really being exaggerated by over reacting fans and a media desperate for us to fail.
We haven't started well at all compared to how we know we can play but a tough fixture list combined with injuries and new players coming in are mostly to blame for that

We're just a point off 4th but more significantly almost every analytic model projects us to finish 3rd or 4th despite that start (I think we might be 5th on TSR/SoTR because Southampton have started so well) - we do especially well in any model that takes account of schedule strength

Despite everyone's nervousness this was actually a pretty dominant performance with one glaring error that wrongly resulted in them having a penalty
I do think last years performances where we just blew teams away has messed with people's minds and caused them to forget how football actually works!

As for Sturridge's return - actually I do think this 'fixes' the problems we've been having in attack. He's a transformative player who not only possess a ridiculous level of threat himself but also creates huge amount of space for our other attackers / midfield runners (go and watch the Spurs game from this season if you doubt that). He's one of the best strikers in Europe and a colossal miss for us it's fair to say our level of success this season will be influenced by how many games he plays for us.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #35 on: October 8, 2014, 01:15:44 pm »


We're not out of options, though. Nor should appearances or conjectures to the effect that this or that player is 'unfancied' be made into arguments as to our lack of options in midfield.

A manager who brought Brad Smith on in the 60th minute and 2-1 down vs CFC to replace Allen cannot possibly be said to have any legitimate basis to claim that he's 'out of options' in midfield because he does not 'fancy' Lucas (or so people claim).

I beg to differ mate. We lost two midfielders to injury and our midfield was extremely light in the centre. He could play Lucas as the Dm but wont as he fancies Gerrard so we are forced into using Henderson in a role that restricts him. An Alex Song or someone could have done a job, freed up Stevie whether positionally or for rest and gave Henderson more licence to get forward.
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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #36 on: October 8, 2014, 01:17:10 pm »
The 'return of Sturridge' won't fix it.


Bet you it does.

£25 donation to this website if I'm wrong. Ditto if you're wrong.

But you might as well send yours now if you accept the bet. There's not a chance his return won't cure our ills.

Titi and jack are on the right lines.


Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #37 on: October 8, 2014, 01:31:29 pm »
Lucas has always done a job for us as a sole pivot. I don't think he's done a job for us anywhere else - though that's often been while Gerrard is sole pivot, and everyone has talked exhaustively about why that doesn't seem to work. I think Rodgers is accepting that and starting to experiment.

I really liked Gerrard in his cameo role up top. I . I see him as the replacement for Suarez in that role. Please bear with me :). I love the idea of him being the "second striker" with a total free role in attack and next to no defensive duties (though he should he can still press, as he showed after 70+ minutes, in that role). His passing, vision, ideas, and ability to play people in I think could be devastating and while not a like for like replacement for Suarez, is the closest thing we could get in terms of bringing more creativity into that part of the pitch.

I could see us in a diamond (with Sterling "behind" Stevie and Sturridge) or in a 4231 (with Stevie in the hole, Sterling coming into the middle with moreno filling the wing) working very well for a lot of games. Once we've netter 4 or 5 he can go to the bench...  ;)

Anyway, a good win. We're not so far adrift though with the emotions these past weeks it certainly felt like the ship was sinking. A lot of work to do and a lot of good performances to put in, but the squad is coming back to full strength and players like Lallana, Moreno, etc have stepped up when it was most difficult for them to step up, surrounded by not only a new team but new faces in that new team as well.

So I'm very positive for the future as long as we do our work Top 3 is ours.


Offline wordroam

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #38 on: October 8, 2014, 01:41:13 pm »

Bet you it does.

£25 donation to this website if I'm wrong. Ditto if you're wrong.

But you might as well send yours now if you accept the bet. There's not a chance his return won't cure our ills.

Titi and jack are on the right lines.

Well we're (probably) both going to be wrong  so we may aswell both send in the £25 !! You've given me a great idea for an app though...

The point is we've been watching the 'problem's being fixed over the last few weeks  ALREADY. And think about it - If it really was all about Sturridge then frankly we'd be fucked.

We've seen things going right with Sturridge we've seen it go wrong with Sturridge this season. Passes to nowhere, bombarding the box with crosses, anti-telepathy, Sturridge coming off frustrated and upset.

I'm hoping we build on the West Brom performance and by the time he turns up he's the icing on the cake that helps catapult us back into Liverpool territory.

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 WBA 1
« Reply #39 on: October 8, 2014, 01:54:57 pm »
£25 donation to this website if I'm wrong. Ditto if you're wrong.
Well we're (probably) both going to be wrong  so we may as well both send in the £25 !!
RAWK Towers is literally and figuratively awash with cash...loser makes the donation here instead!

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