Author Topic: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool  (Read 40963 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2014, 09:54:13 pm »
I'm not trying to be teeth grindingly negative, I'm just trying to use a different lens, a different perspective, to try and judge progress from a wider view. At least thats what I'm trying to do and clearly failing miserably.

 I haven't suggested people asked for BR's head. The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

In terms of United you make my point for me. They gave Moyes nothing, no fight, no belief, no intelligence - in those circumstances how good a performance did it take from us to defeat them. We fully deserved to win, we didn't have to go through the gears, the game itself was scrappy. We played as well as we had to and if we'd needed more, we may have delivered it but I didn't think it was a complete performance or a superb defensive display or any of the other things suggested in this thread, we were better than a poor team, at least thats how it looked to me. It did not rate up there with any number of away performances in the past when we've beaten far far better sides and not given them a single clear cut chance. I thought we've played better against City , Arsenal and Chelsea in the last couple of years and lost. The thing that sets this apart is the context - the fact it was United - replace that name with Newcastle or another mmid table club and would it be seen as so meaningful and so evocative

Jones barging Allen as he ran away from goal less than a minute after half time was a brain fart nothing more. Mata hasn't been marked by Flanno in every game and he's been dire. Van Persie of 1 or 2 years ago would have scored a couple - he looked a shadow of what he was, nowt to do with how we marked him, we didn't mark him for the free header in the 6 yard box he put 6 yards wide. They were dire.



Let's take a step back. I give you Tottenham, Everton, Arsenal and Man U. We've beaten all and we've done it with some margin. We are by no means perfect, but we're talking multiple results. It's not just one. If we then add that we managed to beat Fulham, Swansea and Southampton, despite having difficulties, then what we get is a very positive picture. We have to give Rodgers credit for it. We're in with a shout for the title and it's less than 10 games to go.

I see the point with Moyes and Utd's display. My take on it is that when they were poor, we stepped in and took control. And we won with three goals. There was no question. And that's another very positive sign. If you're off form, we punish you.

Combined, this gives me a picture where we are on the move. We are improving. We are not perfect, but we are improving and it seems the pace is increasing.

PoP have mentioned that Rodgers is an attacking coach. It's natural then that we see goals at both ends. That we're not the best defensively. Using that, what do we see? We have the two top scorers in the league. We are scoring the most goals. Our goal difference is good. We're not perfect, but the approach works. By any kind of measure, it works.

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Offline jc2002

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2014, 10:12:28 pm »
What were man utd fans singing at the beginning of the match, regarding Gerrard, something like "handed transfer request..."?

 I was in amongst the United fans on the day. It goes something like
 "Steve Gerrard, Gerrard,
 He kisses the badge on his chest.
 He puts in a transfer request,
 Steve Gerrard, Gerrard"

 Heard a good one after the match apropos of nothing
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 Don't let your wife near John Terry" 

Offline NaivetyinBlack

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #122 on: March 18, 2014, 10:22:46 pm »
So to sum up Vulmea's point, we assume that the worst that has to happen to our team , happens and if we still somehow manage to play good football, our progress will not be visible ? Quite the Murphy's law believer you are.

I am so not having your glass 3/4 empty logic to downplay any and every progress we have made. And please, do not deny it. That is exactly what you are doing. Do you remember your posts from almost 10 months back in the Rodgers thread where it was being discussed if Brendan has made us a better team ? I believe your argument was with PoP and you were the same. Ignoring all the signs that were there of progress towards the end of last season. Coutinho's progress, Sturridge's effect, Henderson's rise to prominence. You paid no heed to the system and mentality we were developing. Coming back from behind to win 3-2 against Spurs, dispatching Newcastle by 6 goals, dismantling sides like Swansea, Wigan and West Ham comprehensively. If you want, I will happily provide you the quotes as I was really annoyed by your constant put downs then as well.

They were signs of definitive progress. It all leads to where we are now. It is not by chance that we have won so many penalties. Brendan's Swansea used to do that as well. Sinclair and Dyer won a lot of them. It is also not luck that Suarez and Sturridge are playing so well in tandem. They work towards it in training and improve on it every day. Look at Steven Gerrard when he says Brendan is the best 'man manager' he has ever worked with. This from someone who'se played under both Ged and Rafa. Look how improved our captain is. 11 goals and 9(?) assists from defensive midfield with a pass percentage of above 85 ? Astonishing. Plus, count the numbers of defensive and offensive blocks he regularly makes. That is no purple patch. That is exponential development and adaptation to a new position in such a short time. Henderson is the same. Sterling, same. Flanagan, same.

I don't understand what your beef is with Brendan, but you just cannot get away with saying stuff like :

Quote
The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

When you, yourself are ignoring the progress we have made, highlighting other team's deficiencies and not once, acknowledging that we have a semi decent manager. As for your point about judging after some time, he's about to finish his second season with a title challenge, for a team which he took over on it's worst run of form in decades and languishing at 8th. Oh and he's done it without investing the megabucks too. And missed his transfer targets.

I will glorify him. So will most on here, as the job he has done is absolutely stupendous and quite frankly, completely unexpected. If our season somehow falls apart, I am a 100% confident that most on here will not resort to crucifying ( you're dramatic with your words ) either and will revel in the ride this season has been.

Then there will be you who will not give him an ounce of credit and subtly denigrate the progress we've made by portraying an outward sense of being pragmatic while in theory, just another negative poster. Cheers.  :wave

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #123 on: March 18, 2014, 10:28:30 pm »
One thing I do think we can significantly improve is the speed of our combination play in the final third. It often feels like our players take one touch too many, when we'd really benefit from moving the ball around one touch, or in as few touches as possible. The number of times Sturridge and Suarez overplayed on the break when really we should have at least fashioned a chance was incredibly frustrating. I don't think you'll ever be able to totally change them, but I think there's improvements to be made.
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Offline norecat

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #124 on: March 18, 2014, 10:29:16 pm »
Vulmea if Utd are poor then it is up to the opposition, in this case us, to take advantage. You can only beat the team that's put out against you. The fact that we beat them 0-3 in their back garden only magnifies the significance of the result. We are progressing at the rate of knots and however this season pans out at worst its been one of astonisihing progress at best its a triumph to possibly trump Istanbul.

Since you chose to use the word perspective if someone said to me, Liverpool will be a title contenders at the business end of the season in Brendan's second full season I would have taken it and the hand and all.

Offline The Cobbler

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #125 on: March 18, 2014, 10:51:03 pm »
I've always hated going to Old Trafford. Even when we won there (and I go back to the early 70's being chased down Warwick Road before it became Sir. Matt Busby Way) you always felt that one wrong move or word could land you in trouble on and off the field. Even when we were Kings of Europe we seemed to struggle there.

As time passed and Ferguson gripped them so they waxed while we waned, it was usually a trip to the dentist but with no anaesthetic. Even the joy of three Danny Murphy inspired victories was tempered by the fact that we were now seen as also-rans having our rare day in the sun. At the end of each season they were usually parading trophies. Oh yes there was the occasional blossoming - the treble of 2001 and the miracle of Istanbul and the unfulfilled promise of 2008/09 but for those like me who'd lived and loved our 70's & 80's glories, it was gut wrenching to see them prosper and whilst we lurched from crisis to crisis - under Hodgson it reached its nadir.

It's been a long trek back but I now know we are on the way. Why  - because I watched the whole game on Sunday with a sense of utter calm and belief. My team went to OT and won without breaking sweat. It was uplifting and inspiring. My 3 kids were in the ground and the wonder in their eyes and joy in their hearts was joyous to me and other old hands who were also nodding sagely.

Perhaps we won't win the league this year but who cares? My team are back playing with a swagger and style I could never have dreamt of in August 2013. My son has grown up hearing all my tales of the 70's and 80's ( it's a father's privilege) and on Sunday he felt the sense of purpose that I had embedded in me for years.

The reds really are coming up the hill and slaying the Manc dragon along the way is a bonus prize.Sunday was more than a victory it was a statement- unequivocal and far reaching





Offline HBAHFH

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #126 on: March 18, 2014, 10:55:26 pm »
Having just seen a replay of Steven Gerrard's aerial challenge on Fellaini I wanted to post another word.

'Fantastic' ought to do it. But since Stevie picked up a yellow a little bit more needs to be said. Fellaini was left with a bloody face and that's unfortunate. It was unfortunate for Stevie since all that red sort of compelled the referee to re-visit the challenge and get his card out. It's unfortunate for Fellaini since it obviously must have hurt.

However, the challenge was not just legitimate. It was beautiful. Fellaini wasn't hit by a flying elbow. He was hit by Gerrard's head as he followed through after smashing the ball. It must have hurt both players in fact, not that you'd know it from the way Gerrard simply carried on (the ball was still in play of course). The bravery in the challenge was all Gerrard's by the way. It's one thing to launch yourself vertically in order to head a ball. It's quite another to leap forward at an angle. First of all those leaps are harder to time. Secondly you often have to bash your way through an elbow before you even get to the ball. Gerrard's leap was therefore brave and perfectly timed. Nor did he stint on the header, which would have been forgivable. He didn't sink his head into his shoulders as some players do in those circumstances. He went for it 100 percent. Therefore he hit the ball extremely hard.

Everything about the header was perfect. It was text-book in fact.

Fellaini? It's not nice to see a footballer with a bloody face. But I couldn't help thinking there was something ironic about him being the one with the tissue-paper all over his forehead. Fellaini, after all, has made quite a career out of elbowing opponents when it comes to challenging for a high ball.  This time he thought he was up against wee Raheem Sterling and that made him all cocky. He got big Stevie Gerrard instead and now he's in stitches.

We all are.
A much required post on what I genuinely think was one of the finest moments of Steven Gerrard's career - brilliant defensive header, marks the enemy physically and psychologically, shows no trace of impact while showing real paternal instinct in protecting one of the youngest members of the team. Fucking brilliant.

Offline Smug Cassandra

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #127 on: March 18, 2014, 11:20:59 pm »
For me this was another statement of how things are playing out within the team and the supporters. Gerrard is the respected father figure but this game along with others has shown it is not his team anymore. Our talisman is Luis. This is a team now cast in the shadow of Luis. Relentless passionate creative using every single edge to win a game. Since about October we have transitioned to the team of Luis and Brendan  away from the shadows of Stevie and Rafa.



The whole team ticks because of Luis and Brendan. Sterling, Allen, Sturridge, Henderson, all play better to fill the void between their standard and Luis'.

This is a new Liverpool a Liverpool inspired but utter determination on and off the pitch.
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Offline rednich85

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #128 on: March 18, 2014, 11:29:00 pm »
You know for a fact that in a bedroom in central Europe theres a football hipster wanking himself silly over posters of Rodgers, Allen, Henderson, Sterling and Flannagan. Telling all his disinterested mates about how he's been watching us years and we're not shite.

Telling his mates about all these players who've been thrown together by a fancy talking Northern Irish man with a great football ethos and spending relatively little compared to their rivals, and beating teams to withing an inch of their professional lives.

Posting youtube links to our demolitions of the Ev, Arsenal, Spurs and Man utd on to his facebook wall to isolated likes.

We're that side.
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Offline Hayer

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #129 on: March 18, 2014, 11:47:01 pm »
Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

Nonsense.

We have 69 points and are on average to total around 80-85 points. It doesn't matter one bit what the hell has happened to many of the clubs you list. Any normal season and that total is good enough for a title challenge. If Spurs and Utd were better off, all it would mean is there would be a more congested table. It wouldn't effect the battle with our own points tally journey. The battle is with ourselves.

A lot of if's in that post. What if Van Persie made it 2-1? I don't know, what would have happened if Norwich scored that last minute winner vs City? What if Tiote's goal wasn't disallowed vs City? What if Ramires didn't con the referee vs West Brom? What if Howard Webb didn't exist? What if Dudek didn't make that save of Shevchenko in extra time? What if man didn't have a pair of testicles? I mean, how far do we want to go with this?

My god the sheer cheek of us giving away one clear cut chance to an attack that has Rooney, Van Persie and Mata up top.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:32:44 am by Hayer »

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #130 on: March 18, 2014, 11:59:33 pm »
Some will never be happy, it's baffling.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #131 on: March 19, 2014, 12:06:40 am »
thanks for the post, as you've be kind enough to spend time replying I'll try to return the favour

There aren't any rules on how people support, least I hope not or half the main stand will  be out on their ears, moaning bastards.

Lets assume for a second that Southampton had gone in at half time leading or Fulham hadn't gifted us a penalty in the last minute or if we had lost to Villa having been routed for 25 minutes, 2- 0 didn't flatter them at that point. Would we still be so convinced of progress, so astounded by our progress? Yes, this ignores the reality of what happened but football is fickle, without ifs and buts and maybes we wouldn't have much to discuss and its not too big a stretch to think any or all of those things could easily have occured.

Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

I'm not trying to be teeth grindingly negative, I'm just trying to use a different lens, a different perspective, to try and judge progress from a wider view. At least thats what I'm trying to do and clearly failing miserably.

 I haven't suggested people asked for BR's head. The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

In terms of United you make my point for me. They gave Moyes nothing, no fight, no belief, no intelligence - in those circumstances how good a performance did it take from us to defeat them. We fully deserved to win, we didn't have to go through the gears, the game itself was scrappy. We played as well as we had to and if we'd needed more, we may have delivered it but I didn't think it was a complete performance or a superb defensive display or any of the other things suggested in this thread, we were better than a poor team, at least thats how it looked to me. It did not rate up there with any number of away performances in the past when we've beaten far far better sides and not given them a single clear cut chance. I thought we've played better against City , Arsenal and Chelsea in the last couple of years and lost. The thing that sets this apart is the context - the fact it was United - replace that name with Newcastle or another mmid table club and would it be seen as so meaningful and so evocative

Jones barging Allen as he ran away from goal less than a minute after half time was a brain fart nothing more. Mata hasn't been marked by Flanno in every game and he's been dire. Van Persie of 1 or 2 years ago would have scored a couple - he looked a shadow of what he was, nowt to do with how we marked him, we didn't mark him for the free header in the 6 yard box he put 6 yards wide. They were dire.

The reality of those results against Villa, Fulham, etc is that you make your own luck. BR got tactics wrong against Villa by going 4-2-4 but corrected it. Against Fulham we kept calm the whole game and kept running at them creating chances that eventually led to the penalty. Its not a fluke that United kept scoring late winners for years, and its not a fluke now that we're doing it either.

Teams like United have been praised to the heavens in the past for their ability to win at all costs, and now that we're doing it I don't think it should be written of as "lucky", "if's" or whatever.

We've had sub-par games too, but I don't think praising Rodgers for what he's done should be as bad as you make it out to be. Beating Arsenal 5-1, Everton 4-0, Spurs 5-0, United 3-0, and a host of other less high-profile thrashings aren't flukes.

Our opponents may have slipped up more than "usual", but any way you choose to look at it we are on course for a 80+ point season, and that has to be seen as hugely successful regardless of what our rivals do. 80+ points is usually good enough for 2nd place and sometimes for the title itself, and there's every chance we could end up with more than 85. We're also the highest scoring team after 29 games in the premier league - EVER.

While I appreciate that you're trying to look through a different persepctive, and caution is never a bad thing when it comes to glorifying maagers (especially when they haven't actually won any silverware), but I think you're being a tad too negative here. Gotta give some credit where its due!

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #132 on: March 19, 2014, 12:23:48 am »
One thing I do think we can significantly improve is the speed of our combination play in the final third. It often feels like our players take one touch too many, when we'd really benefit from moving the ball around one touch, or in as few touches as possible. The number of times Sturridge and Suarez overplayed on the break when really we should have at least fashioned a chance was incredibly frustrating. I don't think you'll ever be able to totally change them, but I think there's improvements to be made.

I disagree a bit - I actually think we try to play one-touch too early. We don't yet - as a unit - understand the moment the tempo is supposed to quicken, and when it should be slowed down. We lose a lot of possessions from players trying to play one-touch with team-mates who aren't thinking of speeding up the tempo yet, or have gone too fast and early, and so the possession gets lost. That's one of the next levels of play, and something we are clearly aiming for. It's a tough thing to get right though. It's not so much that we can't play one-touch, or we should be slowing it down or speeding it up. It's more that as a group, we don't know WHEN to change the tempo. So we're better off either playing deliberately slow or deliberately fast. We're not yet at the level where every player understands when to switch it up or down on the fly.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2014, 12:25:38 am »
Fucking hell if you want to end it all you just need a quick flick through vulmeas post history.

I started and couldn't stop, every round table appears to be more or less a 3-0 win to us yet the better the score line the more pessimistic he gets.

It's good fun to read but must be hellish to live.

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #134 on: March 19, 2014, 12:35:22 am »
I disagree a bit - I actually think we try to play one-touch too early. We don't yet - as a unit - understand the moment the tempo is supposed to quicken, and when it should be slowed down. We lose a lot of possessions from players trying to play one-touch with team-mates who aren't thinking of speeding up the tempo yet, or have gone too fast and early, and so the possession gets lost. That's one of the next levels of play, and something we are clearly aiming for. It's a tough thing to get right though. It's not so much that we can't play one-touch, or we should be slowing it down or speeding it up. It's more that as a group, we don't know WHEN to change the tempo. So we're better off either playing deliberately slow or deliberately fast. We're not yet at the level where every player understands when to switch it up or down on the fly.
Good point re: not yet having the understanding of when and how to change the tempo. It was more just Suarez and Sturridge that I was talking about rather than the team though. I think the likes of Allen, Henderson, and Sterling all like to move it quickly, whereas the two up top want to touch the ball 4 or 5 times before they make their next move, whether it be a pass, a cross, or a shot.

I just salivate at how we can actually get even more intelligent and efficent. You know more than me about football in general, mate, do you think Suarez and Sturridge are being instructed to play the way they are?

Perhaps I'm just overly enamoured with fast interchange at the top end of the field. It's something that I absolutely love to watch, and when it comes off, it's frightening. Dortmund away at City in last season's Champions League was the best example I can think of. It was a masterful display of attacking cohesion and fluidity.

Again, it might not actually be what we're trying to achieve, and I'd say the players Dortmund have/had are much more set up for that kind of game, but I'd just love for us to become a little more ruthless in those situations.

Can't believe I've just called for this team to become more ruthless! I'm going mad here  ;D
You change all the lead, sleeping in my head, as the day grows dim, I hear you sing a golden hymn.

Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2014, 12:40:25 am »
Have you actually read the thread? There's happiness, for sure. But what reaction do you expect when Liverpool beat Man Utd 3-0 at their place? If you expect misery it means you're not enjoying your footy enough. Time to get out and find another sport.

But 'hyperbole'? No exaggerated claims are being made. The posts in this thread are pretty much in line with the muted celebrations of the team at the end of the match, which have been noted by several posters.

There are more instances of hyperbole in Vulmea's post than this whole thread...but who's counting? Not the place for negativity is it?
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Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2014, 12:50:52 am »
thanks for the post, as you've be kind enough to spend time replying I'll try to return the favour

There aren't any rules on how people support, least I hope not or half the main stand will  be out on their ears, moaning bastards.

Lets assume for a second that Southampton had gone in at half time leading or Fulham hadn't gifted us a penalty in the last minute or if we had lost to Villa having been routed for 25 minutes, 2- 0 didn't flatter them at that point. Would we still be so convinced of progress, so astounded by our progress? Yes, this ignores the reality of what happened but football is fickle, without ifs and buts and maybes we wouldn't have much to discuss and its not too big a stretch to think any or all of those things could easily have occured.

Lets take it one step further. If City or Chelsea had been in anyway as consistennt as in previous seasons and their support should expect given the wealth of the squads and were sitting multiple points ahead, if Fergie was still at United, if Spurs had built instead of going backwards, all four things outside of BR's control and if we were battling Arsenal and Spurs for 4th/5th would the assessment of our progress be as expansive? Hasn't the perception of our progress been tilted by teh underperformance of those around or above us. Most spectacularly by United's dire season.

I'm not trying to be teeth grindingly negative, I'm just trying to use a different lens, a different perspective, to try and judge progress from a wider view. At least thats what I'm trying to do and clearly failing miserably.

 I haven't suggested people asked for BR's head. The point was simply, gloryfying him now is as bad as villifying him if we'd been poor. The lad deserves time under any circumstances. If it would have been wrong to crucify him after this amount of time then it must be just as wrong to put him on a pedastal.

In terms of United you make my point for me. They gave Moyes nothing, no fight, no belief, no intelligence - in those circumstances how good a performance did it take from us to defeat them. We fully deserved to win, we didn't have to go through the gears, the game itself was scrappy. We played as well as we had to and if we'd needed more, we may have delivered it but I didn't think it was a complete performance or a superb defensive display or any of the other things suggested in this thread, we were better than a poor team, at least thats how it looked to me. It did not rate up there with any number of away performances in the past when we've beaten far far better sides and not given them a single clear cut chance. I thought we've played better against City , Arsenal and Chelsea in the last couple of years and lost. The thing that sets this apart is the context - the fact it was United - replace that name with Newcastle or another mmid table club and would it be seen as so meaningful and so evocative

Jones barging Allen as he ran away from goal less than a minute after half time was a brain fart nothing more. Mata hasn't been marked by Flanno in every game and he's been dire. Van Persie of 1 or 2 years ago would have scored a couple - he looked a shadow of what he was, nowt to do with how we marked him, we didn't mark him for the free header in the 6 yard box he put 6 yards wide. They were dire.


In other words-if we had sucked we would have sucked. WTF?
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2014, 12:59:02 am »

I do take exception to  NiB's suggestion I dont support BR and have it in for the bloke. I genuinely have no idea what thats about.

I thought all I've consistently tried to do is suggest the lad should be judged after he's had sufficient time to show what he's about. If he'd performed well or badly that time hasn't arrived yet whatever you luvved up mobsters care to think.

At least a couple of you realise that an alternative view is not necessarily my view but christ its hard work in here at times.

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Offline jckliew

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2014, 01:03:07 am »
And by the same token, what happens if Suarez is awarded a penalty at Chelsea? What happens if Suarez is awarded the penalty against Arsenal in the cup? What happens if Mignolet doesnt make a wild error at the end of the first half against City? What happens if Toure doesnt have a brainfart vs WBA?

It works both ways...things go for you and against you. Thats why you play 38 games because it balances out those high points and low ones.
Consistent as in recent seasons?


+1

a)  If Sterling was not given offside in MancsC game
b) If Suarez was given a peno for foul by Oto
c) If Toure did not have a brain fart in West brom game

We could be 6 pts better.  IF ...................  :)
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2014, 01:05:18 am »
Good point re: not yet having the understanding of when and how to change the tempo. It was more just Suarez and Sturridge that I was talking about rather than the team though. I think the likes of Allen, Henderson, and Sterling all like to move it quickly, whereas the two up top want to touch the ball 4 or 5 times before they make their next move, whether it be a pass, a cross, or a shot.

I just salivate at how we can actually get even more intelligent and efficent. You know more than me about football in general, mate, do you think Suarez and Sturridge are being instructed to play the way they are?

Perhaps I'm just overly enamoured with fast interchange at the top end of the field. It's something that I absolutely love to watch, and when it comes off, it's frightening. Dortmund away at City in last season's Champions League was the best example I can think of. It was a masterful display of attacking cohesion and fluidity.

Again, it might not actually be what we're trying to achieve, and I'd say the players Dortmund have/had are much more set up for that kind of game, but I'd just love for us to become a little more ruthless in those situations.

Can't believe I've just called for this team to become more ruthless! I'm going mad here  ;D

I don't think Suarez and Sturridge are intentionally instructed to take more touches, more that they are allowed to. You have to have dribblers on the team, otherwise you end up like Spurs under Villas-boas, playing the ball around with nothing to take it forward and nowhere for it to go.

I think we'll get to that stage, and a lot quicker than it took Klopp to get it at Dortmund. But we probably have to win the first trophy, for the players to accept that they are good enough to play that way, and that it's the right way to play. The midfield can certainly do it, but I think there's just a shade of lack of trust from Suarez and Sturridge (not in a bad way) in terms of whether they will get the ball back if they release it quickly. It'll come together, and it will come together organically, I think. Possibly at some point in the Champions League campaign next season
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Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2014, 01:25:35 am »
What struck me most was the feeling of comfort throughout. The only moments of light stress I felt (other than the Rafael challenge on Gerrard) were the run ups for the three penalties. It's easy to dismiss the Man United performance - I notice everyone's queuing up to do that; but Liverpool suffocated them regardless. The players are habitually finding the diagonals - the lead up to the first pen saw a pin ball one touch build-up that zig zagged its way up the pitch at breakneck speed. Mignolet's distribution was, dare I say it, calm. At the final whistle, the players calmly filed off, Rodgers shook Moyes by the hand, and that was that. This is business as usual with the new Liverpool. It all feels a bit British Cycling, doesn't it? A scary thought.

I'd agree, Roy. The attitude portrayed by our team led me to believe that, at times, we hardly got out of second gear. Not because we weren't up for it (obviously, as we suffocated them in every aspect of the game), but because we didn't really need to be at our best. But then it hit me. That's how Rodgers has set us up. From the time each player walks onto the team bus, right up until the final whistle blows and they take a seat in the dressing sheds,  the methodical ploy to just ‘go about our business’ with the common goal of reigning supreme is becoming more evident as each week passes. It’s like the fear has finally subsided; something our club has been riddled with for years. Yes, we’re fearless, a fearless machine under one Brendan Rodgers. The whole methodology behind developing such a well crafted machine is actually something likened to the teams of one Rafael Benitez.

Brendan Rodgers receives plaudits for his attacking brand of football, but his methodology runs far deeper than 11 players knocking around a bit of inflated leather in a triangular formation. His ability to development the mentality of “going about business” demonstrates his genius and makes the brand of football we play, indeed, possible. He’s set the benchmark of expectation. Winning with pretty and steely football. The latter, becoming more evident this past three weeks with back to back defensive performances up there with our best of the season. Yes, the mechanics run far deeper; i.e. his man management skills have been astounding, transforming the likes of Jordan Henderson, Raheem Sterling and Jon Flanagan into staples of the first 11. He’s instilled belief into Daniel Sturridge; a cast off from our rivals. Rodgers has nurtured, tapped and squeezed all the ability which all sundry knew he possessed. It’s a beautiful thing.

I would say that I hope it continues, but you know what? There’s no hope about it. This year is our year. I’m convinced of it. No jinx laden statements or mockers (I’m as superstitious as the next man!). There’s just something that makes me feel it’s our year. It’s more than hope. It feels somewhat, different. A spirit, even.

As for the game. My word, I’ve not witnessed a worse United side. Ever. We’re to credit for that, but still, they were beyond lacklustre. It’s been well documented, but really, Davey boy has done a worse job there than Hodgson did for us. In context, anyway. The records keep tumbling for them and let’s hope it continues because under Moy-es, they’re a sham. Pure and simple.

We waltzed in and did a proper job on them in every aspect of our play and, as mentioned above, that’s the mantra we’ve adopted under Rodgers. No fanfare, just get the job done and walk off the pitch. The penalties? Have they not conceded a penalty at Old Trafford since 2011? Did I hear that correctly? I’ll admit; we’d have been lucky to get the second penalty with Ferguson in charge. Their supremacy has waned quicker than a married couple’s sex life and let’s hope it continues before the psychiatrists are appointed.

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2014, 01:54:12 am »
I don't think Suarez and Sturridge are intentionally instructed to take more touches, more that they are allowed to. You have to have dribblers on the team, otherwise you end up like Spurs under Villas-boas, playing the ball around with nothing to take it forward and nowhere for it to go.

I think we'll get to that stage, and a lot quicker than it took Klopp to get it at Dortmund. But we probably have to win the first trophy, for the players to accept that they are good enough to play that way, and that it's the right way to play. The midfield can certainly do it, but I think there's just a shade of lack of trust from Suarez and Sturridge (not in a bad way) in terms of whether they will get the ball back if they release it quickly. It'll come together, and it will come together organically, I think. Possibly at some point in the Champions League campaign next season
Thanks, mate - really interesting.

I think a big part of it might be the calibre of player we're able to get in during the summer. I know Rodgers' coaching will make up a great deal of it too, but if we can get a really top drawer player who plays at the top end of the pitch that should bring us along nicely too. I suppose that's what we were looking at in Mkhitaryan. What I'd give to add someone like Reus or Di Maria though!

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2014, 02:16:42 am »
Some will never be happy, it's baffling.
Yup. This thread title is like asking "Did you enjoy making love to the supermodel last night?" and someone answers with "Well, she had a couple of large freckles on her right arm, and her hair got in the way a lot. I'm not having that."
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Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2014, 03:39:25 am »
The muted celebrations for the first goal was quite odd, especially when thinking back to early goals scored in other big games, is this a new shift in the collective conscience or a spontaneous idea from Gerrard - a "we haven't won this yet" sort of thing to assure focus.

Mario Balotelli said "When the postman delivers your letter, does he celebrate?", well if he beat 11 angry dogs to the rapturous joy of a crowd of thousands, then he probably would, but that's besides the point.

I welcome the cold executioner approach and hope we see more of it. Conceding a goal to Liverpool is bad enough at the moment for opposition teams, now they're seeing us sharpen our blades after being sliced open, instead of joyously acknowledging our handiwork.

5 wins on the bounce, 9 games to come, how many more times will we see scythe swing?

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2014, 05:22:27 am »
I disagree a bit - I actually think we try to play one-touch too early. We don't yet - as a unit - understand the moment the tempo is supposed to quicken, and when it should be slowed down. We lose a lot of possessions from players trying to play one-touch with team-mates who aren't thinking of speeding up the tempo yet, or have gone too fast and early, and so the possession gets lost. That's one of the next levels of play, and something we are clearly aiming for. It's a tough thing to get right though. It's not so much that we can't play one-touch, or we should be slowing it down or speeding it up. It's more that as a group, we don't know WHEN to change the tempo. So we're better off either playing deliberately slow or deliberately fast. We're not yet at the level where every player understands when to switch it up or down on the fly.

I agree with this. There have been a few times recently when we've tried one-two's around corners but the return pass has gone behind the player making the run as the combining players weren't on the same wavelength. The first goal against Villa where Henderson back-heeled Suarez's path into Sturridge's path was a perfect example of 3 players combining perfectly though, and I think its something we've been improving on gradually. In general I feel that sometimes we're either too rushed or too calm, and those quick bursts of pace and passing are what open teams up. Barcelona have been doing it for years and its their bread and butter move... keeping the pace slow and controlled and then hitting opponents with an incisive sequence of passes and runs at exactly the right moment.

Offline Euskadi

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2014, 09:50:31 am »
I agree with this. There have been a few times recently when we've tried one-two's around corners but the return pass has gone behind the player making the run as the combining players weren't on the same wavelength. The first goal against Villa where Henderson back-heeled Suarez's path into Sturridge's path was a perfect example of 3 players combining perfectly though, and I think its something we've been improving on gradually. In general I feel that sometimes we're either too rushed or too calm, and those quick bursts of pace and passing are what open teams up. Barcelona have been doing it for years and its their bread and butter move... keeping the pace slow and controlled and then hitting opponents with an incisive sequence of passes and runs at exactly the right moment.

Great bit of analysis from yourself and PoP. This issue you have both brought up has certainly struck me though I almost get the feeling that this is one of those things in football that probably takes the longest time. The question for me is are the players told to do this naturally, or are they drilled with various triggers to know exactly when the moment is right, or a mixture of both? What always impressed me with the very good Italian sides and their national team is that they would generally dictate the pace of the game and with one or two triggers  the whole team knew exactly when the game would speed up and this made their attacks very quick and very fluid, almost effortless.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2014, 10:25:33 am »
i believe Vulmea is trying to be a voice of reason warning some in here about 'Premature Speculation, for some its too late though!
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2014, 10:50:36 am »
And so the Kraken awakes...

be over the moon with 4th. anything else is a bonus.
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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2014, 11:06:19 am »
And so the Kraken awakes...

be over the moon with 4th. anything else is a bonus.

At the start of the season yes. If we finish 4th at this stage, with the opportunity we have, i'll be disaappointed. We should be able to get at least 3rd but i think we'll win the league.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

Offline emitime

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2014, 11:19:11 am »
And so the Kraken awakes...

be over the moon with 4th. anything else is a bonus.

You've just heard the alarm go off and hit snooze. We're winning the league.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #150 on: March 19, 2014, 11:47:03 am »
i believe Vulmea is trying to be a voice of reason warning some in here about 'Premature Speculation, for some its too late though!

That's not being the "voice of reason", TS. The voice of reason would be "we're doing very well, and we're in a bona fide title challenge, but if it doesn't happen at the end of the season, we've still had a great year, and at least we know there's more to come from this team and manager"

But that's not what Vulmea is saying.

He's essentially reducing the entire season down to "luck".
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Offline stevied

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #151 on: March 19, 2014, 11:50:20 am »
 We are just getting better with each game, Sunday was magnificent because of who we were playing and in their ground, BR has got us playing attacking footie with intent and with end result, yes we looked shaky at the back a few games ago, even that seems to be calming down and improving, bring the next 9 games on win them all and we have a chance of picking up the trophy, its much better where we are than where we have been, onwards and upwards the piss up in May gets closer by the game
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Offline jepovic

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #152 on: March 19, 2014, 12:01:34 pm »
We played really well in offense, but we've done that for a long while now. 3 goals was no shocker, even on OT, which says something about our quality I guess.

What did surprise me was that ManU was so poor. One shot on goal! Few teams (any?) have managed to get so few chances on us away from home. Their defence, once feared, gave us three penalties (could've been more) through absolutely silly behavior. Moyes gets a lot of well earned bashing for their lack of a game plan, but I'm pretty sure he didn't instruct them to do that. The surprise could also be an effect of me watching a lot more LFC than ManU, of course, but they were actually the worst team we've played in a while. Swansea was much better.

Individually, I loved to see the full backs. This has been a weak link for much of the season. Johnson was very solid and had perhaps his best game this season. Flanagan was great in defence, increasingly confident in offense, and his aggressive style is just perfect for these games. Close to getting a red, yes, but a defender who never gets carded is probably too passive.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #153 on: March 19, 2014, 12:03:25 pm »
That's not being the "voice of reason", TS. The voice of reason would be "we're doing very well, and we're in a bona fide title challenge, but if it doesn't happen at the end of the season, we've still had a great year, and at least we know there's more to come from this team and manager"

But that's not what Vulmea is saying.

He's essentially reducing the entire season down to "luck".

thats your take it wasnt mine but you know what they say about opinions and arseholes.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #154 on: March 19, 2014, 12:17:43 pm »
thats your take it wasnt mine but you know what they say about opinions and arseholes.

They go together like a horse and carriage?
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #155 on: March 19, 2014, 12:19:03 pm »




I watched the whole game on Sunday with a sense of utter calm and belief. My team went to OT and won without breaking sweat.








That is it in a nutshell. I was a bit worried going into this. You know the dance, all the hype and expectation, the crash, the gut wrench, watching them, especially Rooney and Moyes, unable to turn the telly and radio on, not looking at papers or on here. Within ten minutes, that was gone.

Me mate was blotto. I didn't even have a bevvy. He was twitching even after an hour. He even said to me, you're supposed to be happy when I stood up and walked out the alehouse after the final whistle. I didn't bother telling him how happy I was, and I'm nearly as happy watching them go to bits as I am at watching us climb.

There's good times ahead. The only thing that can derail it, is us, shooting ourselves in the foot, again. We get into the Champions League, we hang onto what we've got, we give Brendan a few quid to strengthen and upgrade, happy days are here again. Bonus... you get to watch the evil empire crumble. Doesn't get no better than that.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #156 on: March 19, 2014, 12:20:44 pm »
They go together like a horse and carriage?


 ;D

A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline fefs

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #157 on: March 19, 2014, 01:24:54 pm »
thats your take it wasnt mine but you know what they say about opinions and arseholes.

Its an institute you can't disparage ?

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #158 on: March 19, 2014, 01:26:48 pm »
That was a bad day for us.

We missed a penalty, Suarez fell over too often in his knitted boots. Henderson couldn't spot a pass in the first 20 minutes to save himself and the Sturridge/Suarez partnership just didn't click, not like we know they can at least. The ref bottled two early crucial decisions (Penalty against Felliani and Rafael red), we missed a penalty. Oh and the crowd were in full voice trying to create something.

It meant fuck all. That's the difference now, we don't need the rub of the green, worldies from keepers are an interesting anecdote on the way to a 2-3 goal win. Luck means nothing when you have the weight of numbers we do, refs might miss one or two crucial decision on a bad day for us but they don't miss 5 or 6. Even if they do we'll find some other way to win because we are Brendan Rodgers' Liverpool, an unstoppable force.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table Manchester United 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #159 on: March 19, 2014, 02:16:10 pm »
I do take exception to  NiB's suggestion I dont support BR and have it in for the bloke. I genuinely have no idea what thats about.

I thought all I've consistently tried to do is suggest the lad should be judged after he's had sufficient time to show what he's about. If he'd performed well or badly that time hasn't arrived yet whatever you luvved up mobsters care to think.

At least a couple of you realise that an alternative view is not necessarily my view but christ its hard work in here at times.

Burn the witch!!!!!!!!!!

But it is your view mate, consistently over the season you have looked for the negatives about the performances. You may think you are doing a cracking job of analysing the correct things, but genuinely you come away sounding as if you have a real problem with the team or Rodgers. 3-0 wins, 5-1 wins 4-0 wins, every single post in the round tables is negative.

And this last one just smacks of a wind up, you seem to be suggesting that if we didn't have Suarez and Sturridge we wouldn't score goals and if we made mistakes we wouldn't keep clean sheets. If we hadn't beaten them 3-0 we could have easily lost that game. daft.

You ask for perspective but it seems you have lost yours in pursuit of a negative spin on a win that by any objective measure was excellent.