Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC  (Read 29003 times)

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #40 on: December 9, 2013, 10:46:05 am »
The only other thing, i don't know why Fat Sam took off Downing and replaced him with J Cole, but that helped us out big time really. A lot less of a threat then Downing was. I'm happy for Downing though, he's in a team that is much suited to his style of play.


Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #41 on: December 9, 2013, 11:03:40 am »
Weird weird game.

For 40 minutes we dominated the game but looked toothless up front.  We'd break forward and then it would break down because Sterling or Suarez would miss the best pass.  The goal, when it came was fortuitous but aside from the superb save from Mignolet West Ham rarely threatened in that first half.

I commented to someone at the game that this is the type of match we'd have drawn 0-0 a year or two back.  As the minutes ticked down we'd have got frustrated and just failed to find a way through.  The response after half time was superb and probably our best 45-65 min spell this season.  An early goal (albeit another scrappy one) and we were coasting.  What followed was simply bizarre as Sterling and Suarez both squandered incredible opportunities to put the game out of sight.  We should have been 4 or 5 up before they even got a sniff.

Gerrard went off but I don't think it interrupted our flow as we were still looking good and in control.  The sheer fuckup at the back that led to the goal for West Ham was another example of how sloppy we can be at times.  The mood in the ground changed and despite West Ham offering nothing most of the match they suddenly looked confident.  Perhaps this is when we could have used Gerrard or someone with the type of leadership qualities to slow things down and maintain a bit of control.

That it was Johnson, who put in another sloppy performance. delivered the perfect cross for Suarez just capped off an odd game.  Suddenly our confidence was back and Suarez again capitalised on a bit of luck.  After his heroics on Wednesday I actually thought Suarez was quite poor on Saturday.  Poor in his distribution and final balls.  And his finishing was all over the place.  Poor and yet he still created 2 and scored  1 of our 4 goals.  Like I said... weird game.

Sterling should have had a hat-trick and it was frustrating to watch him at times as he is slow to release the ball when the perfect pass is on, but I'm glad he's getting games as it will help to build his confidence.  He's still a baby and needs people to show him some faith.

For me the standout players were Allen and Sakho, with Coutinho knocking on the door.  Despite the goal we conceded we dealt superbly with balls in and Sakho just gives everyone confidence that we can clear the ball and show a bit of strength at the back.  Allen, meanwhile, was in total control and with Gerrard out this is his chance to stake a claim.

4-1, but it could have been 8-0 or 0-0 that's how weird the game was.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #42 on: December 9, 2013, 11:15:40 am »
Joe Allen was Man of the Match. Coutinho wasn't far behind. Sakho looked very solid. Sterling continues to improve.

We should have won by more than 3 goals. 7 or 8-1 would have been a fair reflection of our domination. West Ham were absolute crud. They simply belted the ball long and high and as often as possible. Easy to defend against. Terrible to watch. I hope they get relegated.

Our pressing was good though.

Area for concern - left back. Flanno could have been sent off in the first few minutes. He was too easily skinned a couple of times too. A better winger will have him on the end of a string. And there's nothing going to happen in attack on the left so long as we're without a left-footer. Coutinho was constantly creating space for an attacking left wing-back to exploit. But there was no one there.  It didn't matter against West Ham because they were shit. We'll soon be playing teams who aren't.
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Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #43 on: December 9, 2013, 11:25:21 am »
that was a super spell of football, think Gerrard was off at that time too?

Yeah he was, just watching the game again on LFCTV and he went off earlier than I thought he had, got my timing wrong.

Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #44 on: December 9, 2013, 11:40:23 am »
First and foremost, it was a very enjoyable game, as all of our home ones have been this season bar Southampton (just because we've won them all but have been so fluid in attack which is great to watch).

Suarez was very good again, involved in all four goals (won the foul for the second) which demonstrates how important he is to us. Unfortunate not to have another hat-trick. With him in the team, I can still hold out hope of us causing an upset in one of our tricky away fixtures at Christmas.

Seeing Sterling and Coutinho play together was a joy as well. A real glimpse in to our future. They linked up well and appeared to be on the same wavelength which is a good sign at this stage. Sterling is oh so very good off the ball, makes some cracking runs and in Coutinho we have a player who not only sees those runs but is capable of providing perfect passes for Sterling to latch on to. I'm excited by these two both individually and in tandem; in three or four years, should we still have them, they could be genuine top talent (Coutinho's already close, Sterling definitely has the potential). I said in the pre-match thread against Norwich that people moaning about Sterling possibly starting should- for want of a better phrase- shut the fuck up (I agreed that Moses shouldn't have, however) and I'm happy to see him justify those words. He was good against Norwich, grew in to the game more and more, got himself a goal and against West Ham was very impressive indeed. He's likely to get a run in the team now, let's hope he performs well in the big games but, if he is below par, then let's also remember the lad has just turned 19 years of age.

On the subject of Sterling as a comparison to Ronaldo at that age; different players, Ronaldo was all about tricks and flicks, two-footed with an incredible base physique, while Sterling is obviously smaller so not as strong but is still blessed with pace and excellent agility, and although I was too young to judge Ronaldo back when he was 18/19 I'd be surprised if he was as clever in his movement at that age as Raheem. Sterling's finishing ability is an interesting debate, I agree that he doesn't shoot too much (not that this is a bad thing all the time, sometimes it's good) and that his finishing is often a bit wayward (should have scored against West Ham) but he's certainly able to score goals. Of his three league goals for the club, none of them have been scrappy strikes or tap ins; his first was a very composed finish in to the bottom corner against Reading (h) last season (a matchwinning goal), his second a delightful lob over one Simon Mignolet in January against Sunderland (h) and the other of course a very well taken first-time effort with his left foot against Norwich on Wednesday. All excellent finishes, all set up by Suarez. I'm sure over time he will become more consistent with his finishing and in a couple of years we could be seeing him score score 10+ a season.

Sakho and Allen have justified their inclusions in the two games we have had this week. Sakho has been more commanding than Agger (I'd still like to see them paired together at some point, mind) and just having his presence makes me feel more comfortable when opposition are whipping crosses in. Very difficult to beat the man mountain one on one, too. Allen has helped us keep possession better than we had been. His performance  against Norwich was good, his one against West Ham very good, reminiscent of his displays from August-October last season. Big test for him in our  upcoming away games, but early signs are that he's mentally strong enough to have put the Everton miss to the wayside.

Mignolet showing in most games what a great capture he is. Another vital save, this time at 0-0, to deny Maiga. Johnson put in his best performance since Fulham. Skrtel did well bar the own goal (the new Carra!). Flanagan gave it his all as usual but I can't help but think he'll be a liability in our three aways. He gets caught out of position a fair bit and offers nothing going forward. Not his fault, he's a right-back by nature, but if Kelly was close to full fitness I'd play him RB in the big games at Christmas and move Johnson to the left. Gerrard was very good, real shame he's out for a month but it gives others the chance to make a case. Henderson did better than he did vs Norwich. The subs all did okay.

Home form looking very good. Over the last few years we would have slipped up two or three times against the sides we've played at Anfield so far, if not more, so it's great that we're putting them to the sword so emphatically. Improving our consistency and away form is the next step in our development. Bring on the next few games.

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #45 on: December 9, 2013, 11:44:25 am »
Left back is definitely the concern at the minute. We've gotten away with Flanno to some extent so far and he kept Downing and Cole anonymous but Schurrle/Mata or Silva/Navas are a whole different level, IMO he'll get destroyed.








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Offline Flipmode

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #46 on: December 9, 2013, 11:57:46 am »
SPOT ON!
was at the match and this is exactly what I thought!!!
My main concern is that we are so sloppy. think we dominated but as soon as they got a goal, I was very nervous.
We are so sloppy at the back.
Have to say though Sakho and flanno had a good game.

Weird weird game.

For 40 minutes we dominated the game but looked toothless up front.  We'd break forward and then it would break down because Sterling or Suarez would miss the best pass.  The goal, when it came was fortuitous but aside from the superb save from Mignolet West Ham rarely threatened in that first half.

I commented to someone at the game that this is the type of match we'd have drawn 0-0 a year or two back.  As the minutes ticked down we'd have got frustrated and just failed to find a way through.  The response after half time was superb and probably our best 45-65 min spell this season.  An early goal (albeit another scrappy one) and we were coasting.  What followed was simply bizarre as Sterling and Suarez both squandered incredible opportunities to put the game out of sight.  We should have been 4 or 5 up before they even got a sniff.

Gerrard went off but I don't think it interrupted our flow as we were still looking good and in control.  The sheer fuckup at the back that led to the goal for West Ham was another example of how sloppy we can be at times.  The mood in the ground changed and despite West Ham offering nothing most of the match they suddenly looked confident.  Perhaps this is when we could have used Gerrard or someone with the type of leadership qualities to slow things down and maintain a bit of control.

That it was Johnson, who put in another sloppy performance. delivered the perfect cross for Suarez just capped off an odd game.  Suddenly our confidence was back and Suarez again capitalised on a bit of luck.  After his heroics on Wednesday I actually thought Suarez was quite poor on Saturday.  Poor in his distribution and final balls.  And his finishing was all over the place.  Poor and yet he still created 2 and scored  1 of our 4 goals.  Like I said... weird game.

Sterling should have had a hat-trick and it was frustrating to watch him at times as he is slow to release the ball when the perfect pass is on, but I'm glad he's getting games as it will help to build his confidence.  He's still a baby and needs people to show him some faith.

For me the standout players were Allen and Sakho, with Coutinho knocking on the door.  Despite the goal we conceded we dealt superbly with balls in and Sakho just gives everyone confidence that we can clear the ball and show a bit of strength at the back.  Allen, meanwhile, was in total control and with Gerrard out this is his chance to stake a claim.

4-1, but it could have been 8-0 or 0-0 that's how weird the game was.

Online Gnurglan

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #47 on: December 9, 2013, 12:10:51 pm »
Suarez, what can you say? Everything is destined for the net now. It's unlikely to continue the same way, but he will always create and the goals should keep coming. A fantastic player. Read that he's scored more goals than a few teams this season. And he's been banned for five. It's quite remarkable and long may it continue.

The more I see of him, the more I like Coutinho. The way he is, he must be very hard to read. Sometimes he dribbles, sometimes he makes the final pass around the box and sometimes he drops deep and plays it from the center circle. But there's more. How he controls the ball. It's so close to him. He's always got space it seems. Similar to how space is always there for Silva, Messi and a few others.

Liked the look of Allen. He moves the ball quickly and he himself moves quickly too. When compared to Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard, he's got to be the quickest to turn and accelerate past an opponent. If he's allowed to use that in an attacking sense, I reckon he could become quite a threat. The one slight concern I have is I think he loses the ball in dangerous positions, once or twice per game. It's not such a big deal, if he wasn't playing deep. Maybe he's just rusty and I can't blame him if he is.

Sterling? Had a much better game this weekend than last. I expect him to mix good and bad performances. No problem. He's young and he plays a game where he's supposed to create something. But when he's good, he's showing his worth to the team. Like vs West Ham. That's what matters the most to me. That the real potential is there. Let him progress at the right pace and we'll have a real asset of a player.

Feeling optimistic now. Let's hope we can keep it going over the next few weeks. Then this season can be really, really interesting.

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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #48 on: December 9, 2013, 12:45:52 pm »
I'm seriously wondering why Skrtel is getting so much stick and examination for trying to intercept a ball 2 yards out and heading directly towards a WH striker. I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned he did relatively well to position himself directly in line with the WH player and where the ball came from.

I don't understand why Johnson who IMO was the biggest contributor to the goal (along with Lucas - yeah I know we had time to defend better)  appears to be getting off pretty much unscathed. Is it because he's not the usual scapegoat? Or is it becaus epeople on here just tend to accept/go along with the apinion that "he adds so much more attacking wise that we can forgive him being defensively pretty much inept". If so then I think you;ll find Skrtels been much more active from an attacking point for us this season.

I like Johnson, and I'm prepared to forgive some of his defensive shortcomings because of what he adds to us attacking wise (albeit thats been pretty poor lately), but just to ignore his deficiencies when they lead directly to us conceding, and attack the player who tried to rescue the situation smacks of serious scapegoating.

Well here's the goal





You can see from Johnson's bodyshape that he reads the header is coming back across goal. He's facing the ball, he knows where his keeper is and we can be pretty sure that the ball won't get across that area between him and Mignolet as a result. That's about all he can do other than blindly throw himself backwards at a quality cross he's never going to get unless he can backpedal faster than Jarvis can sprint. He plays the percentage ball.

Skrtel meanwhile turns to the ball, and in doing so loses his man. His bodyshape is so poor that he can't move from that spot never mind get a clean kick on the ball.

A simple alternative would have been (knowing the only thing he has to defend at this point is the ball coming back across the box) a step towards his own goal. Alternatively he could have just stuck to his man better which he actually likes to do and did for the initial cross.

The body shape of both players says how much each of them knew what was about to happen, even though Johnson had less time to read it.

That said Flanagan and Coutinho were WALKING as West Ham swung that cross in from the edge of our box.

Offline blert596

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #49 on: December 9, 2013, 01:38:23 pm »
So what you're saying then is that Johnson has no culpability for the goal but Skrtel does?

To me it seems that Johnson was marking Jarvis pretty closely prior to the header. However, whilst the balls in flight Jarvis somehow manages to get at least 2 yards on him - and I'm not sure about the "sprinting" for the yard or two Jarvis actually moved but IMO Johnson got "lost" moreso than you think Skrtel did.

Maybe I'm being simplistic but Johnsons responsibility was to mark Jarvis by either winning the header or at least jumping with him. By that I mean not to allow him a free header at the back post inside our 6 yard box. To me that's one of the Basic requirements of a defender.  There was no feint by Jarvis (ala Suarez on Collins) as far as I recall, and the ball in wasn't exceptional.

To remove the responsibility from Johnson to be the first line of defence once the ball was in flight seems like he's being given an easy ride.  Dutifully placing himself in between the Jarvis and the ball back across is nothing more than him turning around.

Maybe Skrtel was expecting his defender on the back post to provide something more than simply looking at his man.

It comes of Skrtels studs. If he'd only foreseen that the header back would have been 6 inches further out eh.

Thanks for the pics btw. Seriously, I haven't watched the incident after seeing it live when I thought Johnson was to blame. I still havent had my mind changed yet   :)
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #50 on: December 9, 2013, 01:48:50 pm »


Can you take some screenshots of Lucas receiving the ball under no pressure, looking DIRECTLY at Maiga who's about to close him down, then him instantly forgetting he's there once he's turned his back like some sort of walking Brazilian goldfish, him waiting, and then waiting some more, and then Maiga nicking it off him?

Cos I think that's a lot bigger an error than Skrtel not adjusting his body, he at least had a few things to think about.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #51 on: December 9, 2013, 01:51:29 pm »
Can you take some screenshots of Lucas receiving the ball under no pressure, looking DIRECTLY at Maiga who's about to close him down, then him instantly forgetting he's there once he's turned his back like some sort of walking Brazilian goldfish, him waiting, and then waiting some more, and then Maiga nicking it off him?



Those things happen when coming on late in a game. It´s not that he cannot do better..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #52 on: December 9, 2013, 01:52:51 pm »
Those things happen when coming on late in a game. It´s not that he cannot do better..

It was 60 odd minutes in. Not late.

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #53 on: December 9, 2013, 01:59:28 pm »
I think the circled picture 2 says a lot. Look at how Skrtel has turned and shaped up to his opponent and activity ties his opponent up. Johnson on the other hand hasn't and it only takes a subtle push for Jarvis to create enough separation to take Johnson out of the contest. Skrtel's defence in that photo is perfect while Johnson's is naive.

Look at picture number 4 and Skrtel is searching for Maiga with his hand backing into him trying to create body contact and box him out. It looks like Maiga knocks Skrtel's arm away throwing him off balance and putting him in a position when Skrtel's clearing kick is off balance.

I don't think Skrtel did a lot wrong. IMO it was a good cross, naive defending by Johnson and a hopeless situation for Skrtel. Perhaps a stronger better balanced defender might not have been thrown off balance but I don't think that's a particular weakness of his and I don't think he did a lot wrong. 
« Last Edit: December 9, 2013, 02:01:38 pm by DanA »
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #54 on: December 9, 2013, 02:00:54 pm »
It was 60 odd minutes in. Not late.

That´s late in game. First half would be early. There is nothing in between IMO..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #55 on: December 9, 2013, 02:03:36 pm »
That´s late in game. First half would be early. There is nothing in between IMO..

 ::)

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #56 on: December 9, 2013, 02:07:47 pm »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline robgomm

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #57 on: December 9, 2013, 02:24:55 pm »
I don't know what Skrtl's doing with his hands on Maiga but to me his body shape says he's beat and I'd have wagered Maiga - if the cross had been aimed at him - would get to the cross first, either in front of Skrtl or stepping back off him. Or he tussels with him and brings him down. I'd like to know whether I'm reading this all wrong or if that's really a good defensive posture.

Johnson to me has read the cross but been beaten by it anyway by Jarvis' movement/wee push, which is not great defending to be honest.

Ultimately, the cross was excellent but it probably shouldn't have resulted in a goal.

Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #58 on: December 9, 2013, 02:27:19 pm »
I think the circled picture 2 says a lot. Look at how Skrtel has turned and shaped up to his opponent and activity ties his opponent up. Johnson on the other hand hasn't and it only takes a subtle push for Jarvis to create enough separation to take Johnson out of the contest. Skrtel's defence in that photo is perfect while Johnson's is naive.

Look at picture number 4 and Skrtel is searching for Maiga with his hand backing into him trying to create body contact and box him out. It looks like Maiga knocks Skrtel's arm away throwing him off balance and putting him in a position when Skrtel's clearing kick is off balance.

I don't think Skrtel did a lot wrong. IMO it was a good cross, naive defending by Johnson and a hopeless situation for Skrtel. Perhaps a stronger better balanced defender might not have been thrown off balance but I don't think that's a particular weakness of his and I don't think he did a lot wrong.
So Johnson defends naively and Skrtel defends perfectly and yet, even with more time to read the play, it is Skrtel who ends up out of position, with no idea where his man is, facing the play the wrong way, and completely off balance? Johnson is none of those things. He reads the situation and realises there's no chance he's getting on the end of the cross. Skrtel would have blindly jumped backwards taking himself out of the game, as he does every game.

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #59 on: December 9, 2013, 02:40:59 pm »
So Johnson defends naively and Skrtel defends perfectly and yet, even with more time to read the play, it is Skrtel who ends up out of position, with no idea where his man is, facing the play the wrong way, and completely off balance? Johnson is none of those things. He reads the situation and realises there's no chance he's getting on the end of the cross. Skrtel would have blindly jumped backwards taking himself out of the game, as he does every game.

For the first contest (picture 2). Yes Johnson is naive, Skrtel is not.  Look where Maiga's hand is...he's trying to create separation by push off Skrtel hip. But Skrtel's having none of it and has used that arm to tie Maiga up. No way does a penalty ever get called in that situation and no way is Maiga getting away from Skrtel or a meaningful header on the ball. Skrtel is in the strong position.

In the picture 4. Yes Skrtel is out of position and frantically try to get body contact but has he had time to setup for a headed cross from the left?.....No, Johnson lost his man at the far post and Jarvis has a free header from inside the 6 yard box. What's Skrtel supposed to do?
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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #60 on: December 9, 2013, 03:02:26 pm »
For the first contest (picture 2). Yes Johnson is naive, Skrtel is not.  Look where Maiga's hand is...he's trying to create separation by push off Skrtel hip. But Skrtel's having none of it and has used that arm to tie Maiga up. No way does a penalty ever get called in that situation and no way is Maiga getting away from Skrtel or a meaningful header on the ball. Skrtel is in the strong position.

In the picture 4. Yes Skrtel is out of position and frantically try to get body contact but has he had time to setup for a headed cross from the left?.....No, Johnson lost his man at the far post and Jarvis has a free header from inside the 6 yard box. What's Skrtel supposed to do?
Already listed those to be fair. Just look at his clown feet go. Anyway I'll leave it there, hope he is on form against Spurs

Hank Scorpio said what I should have said! Quality post re pressure. Sign of a top team turning the screw with patience like that.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #61 on: December 9, 2013, 03:20:41 pm »
Skrtel had a decent game - admittedly against a very blunt attack. But the own goal was horrendous. It was a mis-kick, pure and simple. And he's prone to that.
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Offline eLToRo

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #62 on: December 9, 2013, 03:36:03 pm »
It was 60 odd minutes in. Not late.

You're completely missing his point, stop nit picking.

His point is that Lucas came on therefore everybody else was into well into the game by then so it obviously took him some time get get into it

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #63 on: December 9, 2013, 03:57:53 pm »
I looked up a bunch of wide players/attacking midfielders who score goals now to see what their goal scoring records were like at 17 and 18, which I did pretty much randomly. As you can see, several of them (notably Robben and Mata) were amazing right away, while several others basically didn't score at all at first (notably Ribery, Reus and Walcott). It's also pretty clear that league quality matters--look what happens to Ljajic's scoring when he moves from the Serbian league to Serie A.

So my conclusions based on not a lot of evidence: 1) Simply looking at a player's goal scoring rate as a 17 year old doesn't prove much about their goalscoring potential. A little, maybe. Possibly enough to say that Sterling is never going to be Gotze or Robben. But it's hardly enough to decide Sterling isn't going to be a 1-in-4 type wide player. 2) It's particularly not useful to compare stats by a player in a strong league (the EPL) to stats by a player in a weak league (the Liga Sagres and the cup).

Robben:
Age 17 season: 6 in 22 in Eredevisie (1 in 4ish)
Age 18: 12 in 33 in Eredevisie (1 in 3ish)
Just keeps getting better after that. Was a true phenom.

Ribery:
Age 17: 1 in 4 in French 4th division.
Age 18: 5 in 24 in French 3rd division.
Age 19: 1 in 19 in French 3rd division (I think--not positive what league they were in).
Age 20: 3 in 35 in French 3rd division.
Age 21: 1 in 20 in French 1st division.
Age 22: 1 in 14 in Turkish 1st division.
Now he's a consistent 1 in 3 (59 in 168) scorer at the best team in the world.

Walcott:
Age 17: 0 in 16 in EPL.
Age 18: 4 in 25 in EPL (1 in 5ish).
Age 19: 2 in 22 in EPL (1 in 11).
Age 20: 3 in 23 in EPL (1 in 8ish).
Since then, he's been consistently 1 in 4 or better. Last year better than 1 in 3.

Adem Ljajic:
Age 17: 5 in 24 in Serbian league.
Age 18: 4 in 14 in Serbian league.
Age 19: 0 in 9 in Serie A.
Age 20: 3 in 26 in Serie A.
Age 21: 1 in 15 in Serie A.
Age 22: 11 in 28 in Serie A.

Mata:
Age 17: didn't play.
Age 18: 10 in 39 in Segunda Liga.
A consistent 1 in 4 in La Liga and EPL after that.

Kagawa:
Killed it from an early age in the J-League.

Reus:
Age 17: didn't play.
Age 18: 1 in 17 in German 3rd division.
Age 19: 4 in 27 in German 2nd division.
Now almost a 1 in 2 scorer.

Gotze:
Age 17: 0 in 5 in Bundesliga.
Age 18: 6 in 33 in Bundesliga.
Now close to 1 in 3.

One for fun:

Ramsey:
Ages 17-21: 8 goals in 116.
This year: 8 in 14.





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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #64 on: December 9, 2013, 04:16:45 pm »
Can you take some screenshots of Lucas receiving the ball under no pressure, looking DIRECTLY at Maiga who's about to close him down, then him instantly forgetting he's there once he's turned his back like some sort of walking Brazilian goldfish, him waiting, and then waiting some more, and then Maiga nicking it off him?

Cos I think that's a lot bigger an error than Skrtel not adjusting his body, he at least had a few things to think about.

I second your call to provide those screenshots. I obviously disagree with your description and assessment, but a little bit of visual evidence would certainly not hurt.

Furthermore, I would like a bit more visual evidence and analysis of the earlier moments, transpiring on our left defensive flank, after Sakho got his head on the ball and disrupted the first cross (from their left) getting to the head of the WHU attacker (I think it was Maiga).

Finally, there were a couple of more shots on goal or close-to-that after WHU scored that require a bit of analysis (e.g. the one where Sakho ends us blocking/deflecting a shot by, I think, Diame and the ball ends up fizzed in the direction of Maiga who's covered by Lucas on the LH side of Mignolet's goal.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2013, 05:11:19 pm by GrkStav »
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #65 on: December 9, 2013, 04:49:56 pm »
I looked up a bunch of wide players/attacking midfielders who score goals now to see what their goal scoring records were like at 17 and 18, which I did pretty much randomly. As you can see, several of them (notably Robben and Mata) were amazing right away, while several others basically didn't score at all at first (notably Ribery, Reus and Walcott). It's also pretty clear that league quality matters--look what happens to Ljajic's scoring when he moves from the Serbian league to Serie A.

So my conclusions based on not a lot of evidence: 1) Simply looking at a player's goal scoring rate as a 17 year old doesn't prove much about their goalscoring potential. A little, maybe. Possibly enough to say that Sterling is never going to be Gotze or Robben. But it's hardly enough to decide Sterling isn't going to be a 1-in-4 type wide player. 2) It's particularly not useful to compare stats by a player in a strong league (the EPL) to stats by a player in a weak league (the Liga Sagres and the cup).

Robben:
Age 17 season: 6 in 22 in Eredevisie (1 in 4ish)
Age 18: 12 in 33 in Eredevisie (1 in 3ish)
Just keeps getting better after that. Was a true phenom.

Ribery:
Age 17: 1 in 4 in French 4th division.
Age 18: 5 in 24 in French 3rd division. (1 in 4ish)
Age 19: 1 in 19 in French 3rd division (I think--not positive what league they were in).
Age 20: 3 in 35 in French 3rd division. (1 in 11ish)
Age 21: 1 in 20 in French 1st division.
Age 22: 1 in 14 in Turkish 1st division.
Now he's a consistent 1 in 3 (59 in 168) scorer at the best team in the world.

Walcott:
Age 17: 0 in 16 in EPL.
Age 18: 4 in 25 in EPL (1 in 5ish).
Age 19: 2 in 22 in EPL (1 in 11).
Age 20: 3 in 23 in EPL (1 in 8ish).
Since then, he's been consistently 1 in 4 or better. Last year better than 1 in 3.

Adem Ljajic:
Age 17: 5 in 24 in Serbian league. (1 in 6ish)
Age 18: 4 in 14 in Serbian league. (1 in 3ish)
Age 19: 0 in 9 in Serie A.
Age 20: 3 in 26 in Serie A. (1 in 8ish)
Age 21: 1 in 15 in Serie A.
Age 22: 11 in 28 in Serie A. (1 in 2.5ish)

Mata:
Age 17: didn't play.
Age 18: 10 in 39 in Segunda Liga. (1 in 4ish)
A consistent 1 in 4 in La Liga and EPL after that.

Kagawa:
Killed it from an early age in the J-League.

Reus:
Age 17: didn't play.
Age 18: 1 in 17 in German 3rd division.
Age 19: 4 in 27 in German 2nd division. (1 in 6ish)
Now almost a 1 in 2 scorer.

Gotze:
Age 17: 0 in 5 in Bundesliga.
Age 18: 6 in 33 in Bundesliga. (1 in 5ish)
Now close to 1 in 3.

One for fun:

Ramsey:
Ages 17-21: 8 goals in 116.
This year: 8 in 14.

You're muddying things a bit here. In 2009-10, when Ramsey was 19 going on 20, he scored at a 1 in 6ish goal rate. He also suffered a horrible injury, so his numbers after that are bound to be a bit skewed as he came back to full fitness. Either way, at roughly the same age that Sterling is now, he was putting a goal in the net every 6 games or so.


The mistake your making is thinking that the whole story is being told from stats alone. Stats just back up the observations. It's not the quantity alone. It's the type of chances he is getting and missing. He doesn't really execute shots with any power, and he doesn't approach first-touch chances with any conviction. I've also bolded the numbers that you didn't reduce to goals per game to show them. So far, Sterling hasn't achieved the same level as the majority of the names above - my suspicion is that he won't ever hit the heights as a goalscorer - certainly not until he develops confidence in the box to try shots that aren't on, and composure to put away the shots that are.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #66 on: December 9, 2013, 06:22:27 pm »
The mistake your making is thinking that the whole story is being told from stats alone. Stats just back up the observations. It's not the quantity alone. It's the type of chances he is getting and missing. He doesn't really execute shots with any power, and he doesn't approach first-touch chances with any conviction. I've also bolded the numbers that you didn't reduce to goals per game to show them. So far, Sterling hasn't achieved the same level as the majority of the names above - my suspicion is that he won't ever hit the heights as a goalscorer - certainly not until he develops confidence in the box to try shots that aren't on, and composure to put away the shots that are.
Yeah, I just got lazy on the rate numbers, and I agree that at least half of this group look better than him at 17/18, but they're for the most part exceptionally good goal scoring wide players, and I didn't pick players to suit any argument. I just included everyone I thought to look up. He doesn't have to be Robben or Gotze to be a good goalscorer.

I don't think I'm making the mistake you're attributing to me, but I do understand that there's more to your point of view.

I'm saying the stats are of very limited use on 17 year olds--or rather, scoring like Robben probably means you're going to be a star, but not scoring much just doesn't show much either way. I just don't think his goalscoring rate as 17 year is conclusive of anything. As you can see, at the same age Walcott didn't score at all, as just one example. It's fair enough if you think it's a technical thing; I won't argue on that.

But, to me, he's extremely good for his age and role at getting into goal scoring positions, and what he lacks are composure and confidence more than anything, the two traits you most expect to improve with experience. Moving him further back--to fullback, as you suggest might have been his natural position if he'd been trained for it--would be a huge waste to me because he's so good at stretching an opponent's backline and getting good opportunities on goal.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #67 on: December 9, 2013, 06:26:27 pm »
I second your call to provide those screenshots. I obviously disagree with your description and assessment, but a little bit of visual evidence would certainly not hurt.



Ask and ye shall receive.

Here's Lucas showing for the ball in acres of space



Here's Lucas receiving the ball in acres of space with Maiga clearly in his eyeline (he's just been looking directly at him), clearly moving in his direction.



Here's Lucas dawdling on the ball, wanting too much time and too many touches as Maiga closes him down.







Here's the ball being lost before West Ham eventually put the cross in and score.



You can also pick out Hendo asking for a little ball to be played between the two West Ham players, and Johnson unmarked on the right as an option.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #68 on: December 9, 2013, 07:01:45 pm »


Johnson quite simply has to be stronger, use his upper body strength and block Jarvis off
Well here's the goal





You can see from Johnson's bodyshape that he reads the header is coming back across goal. He's facing the ball, he knows where his keeper is and we can be pretty sure that the ball won't get across that area between him and Mignolet as a result. That's about all he can do other than blindly throw himself backwards at a quality cross he's never going to get unless he can backpedal faster than Jarvis can sprint. He plays the percentage ball.

Skrtel meanwhile turns to the ball, and in doing so loses his man. His bodyshape is so poor that he can't move from that spot never mind get a clean kick on the ball.

A simple alternative would have been (knowing the only thing he has to defend at this point is the ball coming back across the box) a step towards his own goal. Alternatively he could have just stuck to his man better which he actually likes to do and did for the initial cross.

The body shape of both players says how much each of them knew what was about to happen, even though Johnson had less time to read it.

That said Flanagan and Coutinho were WALKING as West Ham swung that cross in from the edge of our box.

Johnson is guilty of ball watching, in that position with only one player within yards of him he has to get touch tight and use his upper body strength to ensure that Jarvis doesn't get the header in. For me it's a carbon copy of Southampton away last season. Johnson doesn't even get a challenge in.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #69 on: December 9, 2013, 07:03:53 pm »
Ask and ye shall receive.

Here's Lucas showing for the ball in acres of space



Here's Lucas receiving the ball in acres of space with Maiga clearly in his eyeline (he's just been looking directly at him), clearly moving in his direction.



Here's Lucas dawdling on the ball, wanting too much time and too many touches as Maiga closes him down.







Here's the ball being lost before West Ham eventually put the cross in and score.



You can also pick out Hendo asking for a little ball to be played between the two West Ham players, and Johnson unmarked on the right as an option.

I just love the description in bold, above. 35 seconds later, and 12 passes by WHU players and a head-touch by Sakho later.

The problem with your assessment is that you're making a mountain out of a molehill and that you're singling Lucas out as "costing us the goal".

If you think the visual evidence you provided demonstrates your basic 'naked' claim that it was Lucas who "cost us the goal" then you and I have extremely different standards of what counts as adequate evidence.

You do remember, by the way, that I forthrightly said that it was a mistake by Lucas NOT to shield the ball better, to allow Maiga to get so close behind him, and to allow him to toe-poke the ball from behind, right?

I will not talk about what every other possible pass-recipient did in that short time period. You pointed to Henderson calling for the ball. You might have noticed that when that happens Lucas is no longer in control of the ball, as it has been toe-poked away from him by Maiga.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #70 on: December 9, 2013, 07:18:29 pm »
Think the point is that we had possession, lucas very badly gave it away, they had possession and scored.

That goal is down to lucas it occurs in WHU very next phase of play.

And was bad bad bad play by lucas. Allen did similar earlier and didn't get punished, but its those kind of unforced errors that will always cost you if you make enough of them.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #71 on: December 9, 2013, 07:19:50 pm »
Well, going by the rules of the game, intent is irrelevant for any offence except handball. I agree that Flanagan was clumsy, but that doesn't make his foul any better. I think he was lucky.

I have to say that West Ham (and Norwich, and Fulham, and WBA) were quite crap, but I have seen plenty of crap teams get a result at Anfield so I take my hat of to the team for crushing them all.


That's not entirely true. Violent intent has everything to do with the awarding of red cards and whether they result in 1 game or 3 game bans or whether a card is given at all.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #72 on: December 9, 2013, 07:24:22 pm »
When she was good, she was very, very good,
But when she was bad she was horrid.


And we were very good for long stretches in that match. Lovely to watch. A few bad bits when we 'got sloppy' - Lucas before the goal, Allen going to sleep just inside our half - but it's hard to nitpick when we were a delight to watch for long periods.

Sakho really is impressive. A beast is something that most would accept but the lad can pass the ball as well. Joe Allen probably shaded Man of the Match - moving the ball so quickly really seems to build the pressure and he was so quick to press when it did break down.

A word on Coutinho.

Bloody Hell.

Two words then.

The lad's a little genius now. What might he become in a couple of years? When he receives the ball with his back to goal he turns upfield. There's a man in front, a couple of yards away. He moves towards the man. The man's now petrified he's going to be skinned and backs off and the pressure grows. All that's wanted now is some movement for him. As someone said earlier - it's now Death by Football.

Bloody Hell.

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Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #73 on: December 9, 2013, 07:31:48 pm »
The mistake your making is thinking that the whole story is being told from stats alone. Stats just back up the observations. It's not the quantity alone. It's the type of chances he is getting and missing. He doesn't really execute shots with any power, and he doesn't approach first-touch chances with any conviction. I've also bolded the numbers that you didn't reduce to goals per game to show them. So far, Sterling hasn't achieved the same level as the majority of the names above - my suspicion is that he won't ever hit the heights as a goalscorer - certainly not until he develops confidence in the box to try shots that aren't on, and composure to put away the shots that are.

He's done that at the academy so I think he will gain the confidence to do it at the top level. Remember the lob after Suarez' flick from the half way line last year. Very creative goal. When he dropped to the academy this year he scored some crackers as well. Just my opinion, I think he will be a goalscorer.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #74 on: December 9, 2013, 07:32:26 pm »
yeah I thought Allen played well on the turn as well. makes a massive difference if they are quick to turn and look for the forward pass.

thought the whole team kept the ball really well on Saturday.

pleasing on the eye, but seemed to be circulated a lot further forward than usual. We probed while looking to penetrate, and that's a step forward in my humble opinion.

Allen shaded man of the match for me as well very good and clever in and around the box, very couthino like at times.

Like the look of Sahko moves the ball really well.

Philipe is a gem.

Suarez is unplayable.

Sterlings runs were absolutely fantastic.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #75 on: December 9, 2013, 07:44:36 pm »
I just love the description in bold, above. 35 seconds later, and 12 passes by WHU players and a head-touch by Sakho later.

The problem with your assessment is that you're making a mountain out of a molehill and that you're singling Lucas out as "costing us the goal".

If you think the visual evidence you provided demonstrates your basic 'naked' claim that it was Lucas who "cost us the goal" then you and I have extremely different standards of what counts as adequate evidence.

You do remember, by the way, that I forthrightly said that it was a mistake by Lucas NOT to shield the ball better, to allow Maiga to get so close behind him, and to allow him to toe-poke the ball from behind, right?

I will not talk about what every other possible pass-recipient did in that short time period. You pointed to Henderson calling for the ball. You might have noticed that when that happens Lucas is no longer in control of the ball, as it has been toe-poked away from him by Maiga.

Every bit of play following that point is completely avoidable if Lucas is more switched on, if he doesn't get caught out like a rookie then none of the following
play happens. And his mistake is just so much worse than anyone else's that he is ultimately accountable, its another level to not adjusting your body in a second like Skrtel or not being able to cut out a very good cross like Johnson. Those 'mistakes' we a result of some nice football from the opposition. Lucas' mistake was a result of him playing like an amateur. It was schoolyard stuff.

We need better from him in the coming weeks. He is better than this thankfully, even if he's not necessarily shown it this season.

No better time to start than now.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #76 on: December 9, 2013, 07:51:19 pm »
A good scoreline, a lot of own goals, and some interesting talking points going into the next few games, all marred by the lack of a clean sheet again, and the more serious issue of Gerrard's injury. Having said that, a good game to watch, for a few reasons.

Liverpool’s Shape

Liverpool’s shape, certainly in the first half, was very well balanced. We played a 4-2-3-1 for all intents and purposes, but with Sterling and Coutinho combining well with Suarez, it transformed into probably the first bona fide 4-3-3 we’ve played under Rodgers in a long time. The midfield also held a near-perfect triangle, with Henderson pressing from the front, Allen controlling the space in front of the defence, and Gerrard linking the play. Flanagan played the more conservative fullback role, with Johnson pushing forward aggressively. Sakho and Skrtel played traditionally, close together and split only when needed. This played into Skrtel’s strengths, and apart from the own goal and a couple of other moments, he had a good game:




In terms of attacking play, we dominated on the right side, with 42% of our attacks coming from there, with Johnson playing a prominent role. Our four most involved players in the game were Coutinho, Allen, Johnson and Henderson, with Gerrard up until his departure through injury. Indeed, Henderson, Johnson and Sterling – with Gerrard as usual – looked to play through West Ham with a high number of key passes each. This was a dominant game in every sense of the word. Part of this was the effectiveness of our pressing. In fact, it was probably our best pressing game this season, with the possible exception of Fulham.

Liverpool Pressing


In terms of our defensive tactics, Liverpool went on the hunt for the ball in West Ham’s half a lot more than they have recently. If we compare our defensive actions in the West Ham half, with their lost possessions in the same area, we can see a clear pattern of volume of pressing that has largely been absent this season:




Compare this with West Ham’s lost possessions:




We can clear see from here that we did a lot of work on the right side of the field, between Henderson, Johnson, Sterling and Gerrard (and Allen after Gerrard). This enabled us to dominate the game, save for the short period after they scored. All in all, it was a positive thing to see, and something of an indication to Rodgers that if he could have us play that way in most of the away games, we would probably get better returns from the away results.

Joe Allen’s Pivotal Role


Allen played a great game and looked a lot closer to the player we paid £15 million for than he did for much of last season (due to his on-going injury, most likely, it has to be said). As mentioned before, 42% of our attacks came down the right, as well as the large majority of our pressing. This would seem to suggest that we Allen was right-side dominant too, but his passing tells a different story. Most people think of the “pivot” and the “double pivot” as defensive roles, shielding the back four – but the “pivot” part of their job is actually to switch play. There are three main methods for switching play – the big switch (which Gerrard excels at), the switch through the forward target (which we don’t have), and the switch through depth (holding midfielder or central defenders). Allen was – to coin a phrase – pivotal in this sense against West Ham. With a lot of the pressure coming on the right hand side, and a lot of the counter-attacking too, whenever Allen got the ball, he looked to release the ball for the pressure zone and move it to the other side of the field:




As we can see, there is a definite left-side pattern to his passes, including one or two central switches, some through balls, and two key passes (in red). Although he was occasionally outmuscled for the ball, he more than made up for it with the intent of his passes, and he could become a very important part of the midfield set-up in the next few weeks depending on how long Gerrard is out for.

The Goal Conceded


The own goal was a very unfortunate one to concede, but the responsibility for it is being misplaced. Lucas, for certain, has an indirect responsibility for the goal, because he lost the ball carelessly in the first place. It’s one thing to lose the ball trying an ambitious pass, but altogether another thing to lose it from behind, dithering on the ball waiting for options. There is a possible excuse that he wasn’t given a call to let him know there was a player behind him, but even still – it was a schoolboy error. However, fully 8 passes happened before the cross, so although Lucas’ unforced error lost the possession, the defensive breakdown was elsewhere. Lucas, in losing the ball, could and should have taken advantage of any one of 3 viable immediate options:




Option 1, the obvious one, would have been to switch the ball across to Johnson. Option 2, the safer one, would have been to drop the ball back to Skrtel and recycle the ball. Option 3 was the last resort, which would be to play the ball long to the attackers. This would have been a low percentage ball, but it would have put West Ham on the back foot, and any turnover of possession would have been in West Ham’s half. Instead, he took too much time on the ball, was indecisive, and lost the ball. Eight passes later, West Ham were in a crossing position, and this is where the real breakdown occurs.
If we look at the moment of the cross, we see something very telling:



As the ball is coming in, Johnson and Jarvis are touch-tight. So far, all is well – Johnson is practically on Jarvis’ toes, and is in a good position to challenge him for the header. However, a second later, Jarvis pulls away to meet the ball in the air, but Johnson doesn’t go with him. There was no reason to not track with Jarvis and at least challenge for the header – it was a standard defensive play. In the box, mark tight, go with your man, and if he jumps, you jump with him. You might not win the header, but you’ll do enough to put him off and stop him getting it cleanly. Had he done that, we might have been looking at a harmless deflection out for a throw or goalkick, or at worst, a corner. Instead, Johnson leaves Jarvis free to make the header:




There’s about 2 yards of space between Johnson and Jarvis as the header is made. Jarvis is also moving backwards as he makes the header, further emphasising the point that even minimal physical pressure would have rendered the header harmless. Instead, with space and time to cushion the ball, he puts it across the 6 yard box, with Skrtel already facing away and out (a good body position to take if Johnson had done his job). Because the header comes back across, Skrtel has to now turn and react, knowing the Maiga is behind him ready to pounce. What he did was unfortunate, instinctive and unlucky. But it was probably the right call, given that he was initially facing away from the goal as the ball came across.

In the totality of the goal, two errors stand out – Lucas’ indecision in a vulnerable area of the field when there was no need to be, and Johnson’s lack of marking at the back post. This is a particular weakness in his game. It won’t be eradicated at this point, so it will probably cost us again. Skrtel was unfortunate, but there wasn’t a lot he could do under the circumstances. There probably could have been better pressure on the ball in West Ham’s 8-pass sequence, too. But the telling moments were the Lucas dispossession, and Johnson’s lack of marking at the back post – with the latter being the bigger error.

Going Forward


Coming into a big month of big games, the loss of Gerrard is unfortunate, but we saw in the second half that we are capable of dealing with his absence. Allen could become a stand-out player in the next few games, in terms of passing and field coverage. Henderson will probably retain his place, while the blossoming trio of Coutinho, Suarez and Sterling might perform well enough to make it hard for Sturridge to walk straight back into the team when he returns from injury. There are some elements to worry about after the West Ham game, but also a lot to be positive about too.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2013, 09:21:22 pm by BalesofHay »
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Offline robgomm

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #77 on: December 9, 2013, 08:34:46 pm »
Interesting review :)

I'd be interested to see how much we pressed in the first 20-25 minutes, it seems to me we actually let them play at us a bit. Later I thought we passed, moved and pressed really well. Allen I thought was fascinating for his good work in either role he played, be thrilled if he becomes a regular playing like that.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #78 on: December 9, 2013, 08:41:14 pm »

The Goal Conceded


The own goal was a very unfortunate one to concede, but the responsibility for it is being misplaced. Lucas, for certain, has an indirect responsibility for the goal, because he lost the ball carelessly in the first place. It’s one thing to lose the ball trying an ambitious pass, but altogether another thing to lose it from behind, dithering on the ball waiting for options. There is a possible excuse that he wasn’t given a call to let him know there was a player behind him, but even still – it was a schoolboy error. However, fully 8 passes happened before the cross, so although Lucas’ unforced error lost the possession, the defensive breakdown was elsewhere. Lucas, in losing the ball, could and should have taken advantage of any one of 3 viable immediate options:




Option 1, the obvious one, would have been to switch the ball across to Johnson. Option 2, the safer one, would have been to drop the ball back to Skrtel and recycle the ball. Option 3 was the last resort, which would be to play the ball long to the attackers. This would have been a low percentage ball, but it would have put West Ham on the back foot, and any turnover of possession would have been in West Ham’s half. Instead, he took too much time on the ball, was indecisive, and lost the ball. Eight passes later, West Ham were in a crossing position, and this is where the real breakdown occurs.
If we look at the moment of the cross, we see something very telling:



As the ball is coming in, Johnson and Jarvis are touch-tight. So far, all is well – Johnson is practically on Jarvis’ toes, and is in a good position to challenge him for the header. However, a second later, Jarvis pulls away to meet the ball in the air, but Johnson doesn’t go with him. There was no reason to not track with Jarvis and at least challenge for the header – it was a standard defensive play. In the box, mark tight, go with your man, and if he jumps, you jump with him. You might not win the header, but you’ll do enough to put him off and stop him getting it cleanly. Had he done that, we might have been looking at a harmless deflection out for a throw or goalkick, or at worst, a corner. Instead, Johnson leaves Jarvis free to make the header:




There’s about 2 yards of space between Johnson and Jarvis as the header is made. Jarvis is also moving backwards as he makes the header, further emphasising the point that even minimal physical pressure would have rendered the header harmless. Instead, with space and time to cushion the ball, he puts it across the 6 yard box, with Skrtel already facing away and out (a good body position to take if Johnson had done his job). Because the header comes back across, Skrtel has to now turn and react, knowing the Maiga is behind him ready to pounce. What he did was unfortunate, instinctive and unlucky. But it was probably the right call, given that he was initially facing away from the goal as the ball came across.

In the totality of the goal, two errors stand out – Lucas’ indecision in a vulnerable area of the field when there was no need to be, and Johnson’s lack of marking at the back post. This is a particular weakness in his game. It won’t be eradicated at this point, so it will probably cost us again. Skrtel was unfortunate, but there wasn’t a lot he could do under the circumstances. There probably could have been better pressure on the ball in West Ham’s 8-pass sequence, too. But the telling moments were the Lucas dispossession, and Johnson’s lack of marking at the back post – with the latter being the bigger error.



Fantastic, as usual. Very informative.

I am surprised at one omission, though, in your analysis of the goal conceded: the performance of Flanagan and Coutinho on our left flank, after the ball was headed by Sakho (I believe he challenged for the cross with Maiga, but I could be wrong). Neither Flanagan nor Coutinho did particularly well to prevent and/or defend the cross that ended up being headed back across by Jarvis.

That excuses neither Lucas nor Johnson. And, as I said earlier (or perhaps in another thread), Skrtel engages in those acrobatic attempts at 'heroics' quite often and usually successfully.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC
« Reply #79 on: December 9, 2013, 08:46:31 pm »
Think the point is that we had possession, lucas very badly gave it away, they had possession and scored.

That goal is down to lucas it occurs in WHU very next phase of play.

And was bad bad bad play by lucas. Allen did similar earlier and didn't get punished, but its those kind of unforced errors that will always cost you if you make enough of them.

You cannot possibly be serious. The goal is not down to Lucas and it did not occur "in WHU very next phase of play".

I counted 12 passes, Pop said 8. He is probably right but that's a big difference and I am not normally THAT careless. Be that as it may, 8 passes later, with the play being switched to (their), then to the right, then back to the left, then closer to central. Not exactly 'very next phase of play'.

Edit: I watched it again and counted:

Maiga toe-pokes the ball off Lucas; recovered by Jarvis; (1) or (0)
Jarvis to Nolan; (2) or (1)
Nolan to Noble; (3) or (2)
Noble to McCartney; (4) or (3)
McCartney to O'Brien; (5) or (4)
O'Brien to McCartney; (6) or (5)
McCartney cross towards Maiga (7) or (6): Intercepted by Sakho headed challenge (Maiga possibly in an offside position when McCartney initiates the cross, probably just kept onside by Flanagan);
Nolan recovers the ball and dribbles it away from goal towards WHU right sideline;
Nolan to Demel; (8} or (7)
Demel feigns a right-footed cross and takes Coutinho out who makes no further effort to  put any pressure on Demel;
Demel to Jarvis; (9) or (8}
Jarvis towards Maiga; (10) or (9) intercepted by Skrtel; OG.

As they say, don't piss on my leg and tell me that a warm rain-shower has just broken.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2013, 09:37:32 pm by GrkStav »
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